Advice appreciated on this Barb/Swift Hunter idea

[Outback]

Hello all. My concept is this: A Half-orc Swift Hunter (ranger focus obv.) with a level of Barbarian for Pounce and Whirling Frenzy. I plan to go TWF from the Ranger fighting style and send him in with two Kukris to deal lots of damage. Will also equip him with either throwing knives or a Composite Shortbow to Skirmish from range where needed.

Altho I have no problem with coming up with a concept, I usually struggle with seeing the long term picture in a build, so thats why I'm asking for tips/ advice that I might consider developing this character. I'm not sure what level we'll begin, but I suspect somewhere at lvl 4, possibly higher. Is there a build that I can combine with tripping enemies? All the books have so many combinations that I have lost all oversight in my options at this point. I believe there's a lvl2 Barb ACF that gives me Improved Trip if I trade in something else right?


Thanks in advance, any questions you have I'd be happy to answer.

[Flickerdart]

Barbarian is an excellent dip for a Swift Hunter build. I would even consider taking two levels of Barbarian since you'll want to aim for Swift Hunter as your level 6 feat.

The barbarian ACF you are thinking of is Wolf Totem from SRD and Unearthed Arcana. Unlike all other non-spirit Totems, it can be combined with Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion) which is the one that grants Pounce. You want to also get Knockdown, because you won't be doing much tripping with a non-tripping weapon otherwise, and frankly tripping isn't that useful for a guy whose strategy should be "I pounce on you and now you are dead."

[Outback]

Is Knockdown a Feat or a magic item ability? I was thinking to take Combat Reflexes and trip enemies up with AoO's would I require a tripping weapon with this?

[Rebel7284]

Knockdown is a 3.0 feat.

Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage, you get a free trip attempt.

[Outback]

Ah yes, that does look good, it's going in my notes :D

Thanks for the tip!

[Darrin]

Altho I have no problem with coming up with a concept, I usually struggle with seeing the long term picture in a build, so thats why I'm asking for tips/ advice that I might consider developing this character. I'm not sure what level we'll begin, but I suspect somewhere at lvl 4, possibly higher. Is there a build that I can combine with tripping enemies?


I'd suggest something like:

Race: Frostblood Half-Orc (Dragon Magic)
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (CChamp), Bonus: Track. Favored Enemy: Undead. Wild Empathy -> Spiritual Connection ACF (CChamp).
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF
3) Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1. Feat: Combat Reflexes. Pounce (CChamp), Whirling Frenzy ACF (Unearthed Arcana).
4) Scout 1. Skirmish 1d6.
5) Scout 2.
6) Scout 3. Feat: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
7) Wolf Totem Barbarian 2. Bonus: Improved Trip.
8) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance -> Knock-Down (SRD Divine section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm)).
9) Scout 4. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Bonus: Improved Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
10) Ranger 4. Animal Companion -> Distracting Attack ACF.
11) Ranger 5. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4. Favored Enemy: Constructs.
12) Ranger 6. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures HB). Bonus: Improved TWF.
13) Highland Stalker 1.
14) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
15) Ranger 7. Feat: Robilar's Gambit. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
16) Ranger 8.
17) Ranger 9. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5.
18) Ranger 10. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3).
19) Ranger 11. Bonus: Greater TWF. Skirmish 5d6AC+4/7d6AC+6.
20) Ranger 12.

Weapons: You probably won't have enough feats to do both critfishing and tripping, so I'm not sure I'd go with dual kukris over longsword/shortsword. After level 6 I'd suggest a flail (one-handed) and sickle (light), as those are both tripping weapons. I'm also quite fond of the tigerskull club (Frostburn), but feat-wise there isn't much room for Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Oversized TWF until much later in the build. Whatever you go with, make sure you put wand chambers in both weapons (100 GP, Dungeonscape) and maybe throw a dwarven buckler-axe on one arm as well (A&EG/Races of Stone). You don't need EWP to get the +1 shield bonus, it doesn't incur the -1 attack penalty that other bucklers have, and it's a good place to put another wand chamber and a Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection (2500 GP, MIC). For your wand chambers, I like instant of power (Forge of War), blades of fire (Spell Compendium), and maybe impeding stones (Cityscape)/surefooted stride (Spell Compendium).

Other Options:

Ranger 12 is kind of a dead level. You could throw in a level of Cloistered Cleric to pick up Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and maybe the Magic domain (activate spell-trigger items as a wizard). The Draconic Deity Io (Races of the Dragon) covers all three. This could free up a couple feats for EWP, Oversized TWF, or Power Attack/Leap Attack.

Soldier of Light (Deities & Demigods) is another good 1-level dip (maybe after Ranger 6). This gives you Turn Undead, which is another way to power your Travel Devotion uses. Instead of taking Travel Devotion (x2) or (x3), you could take Extra Turning. Full BAB, so you'd end up with BAB +19 over 20 levels.

More Ranger levels isn't the only way to advance your skirmish damage. If you replace your last 8 levels of Ranger with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4, you get +4d6 skirmish damage instead of +2d6.

Dragonborn of Bahumat might be worth taking after you get Ranger 3. You lose Endurance as a bonus feat, but keep the bonus feat you picked up instead at Ranger 3. This gives you a breath weapon or a fly speed based on your HD. You can also replace one of your existing feats with Dragon Tail, which gives you a secondary natural attack to add to your full attack, or Dragon Wings, which puts you one feat away from the same fly speed you'd have if you didn't take the Wings aspect. Normally I trade out Track for one of these Draconic feats, but you need that to qualify for Highland Stalker. Maybe pick up a feat from a legendary location such as Frog God's Fane or Otyugh Hole, and swap that.

[Outback]

I should have mentioned we play in Forgotten Realms, and "buying" magic items isn't really a thing in our campaigns.

Travel Devotion, does this allow me to move around the battlefield free of provoking AoO's? Or is this for killing something, then moving to the next target and hitting that?

[Zaq]

Travel Devotion lets you move your speed as a swift action. Each time you take it (and you can take it multiple times), it lets you use its effect for one minute per day. (If you have Turn Undead from somewhere, you can also sacrifice uses of TU for more Travel Devotion, but Darrin's build doesn't have any sources of TU, which is why it takes Travel Devotion multiple times). Travel Devotion movement provokes AoOs just like any other movement does, but just like any other movement, you can use Tumble to not provoke. Since Scout 3 gives you a +10' bonus to your movement speed, you can Tumble at half speed and still get the required 20' of movement necessary for Improved Skirmish.

[Outback]

Ok cool I need to work out how that "math" works in the game, but I like the sound of it all! What's the Tumble check I need to beat to avoid AoO's? I might be able to use this in my Battlerager build as well.....


Thanks btw to everyone for being helpful thus far. Much appreciated.

[Urpriest]

I should have mentioned we play in Forgotten Realms, and "buying" magic items isn't really a thing in our campaigns.


Those two are contradictory. Forgotten Realms has plenty of item merchants that have a very important role in the setting, with the Red Wizards being the most prominent. Chances are if you're playing in FR there are magic item merchants in most major cities.

[Outback]

Huh. Well how my DM enjoys playing it anyways. He never said it wasn't an option, but it hasn't been thus far. (We just haven't come across any vendors like that). I was also thinking to take the first level as Scout, for the higher skill points. Just swapping out lvls 1 and 4.

[Outback]

Okay, the tripping is a nice idea, but I'm also looking at making him a Crit fisher instead but I've only heard the words Crit fisher and it sounds cool, altho I have no idea how to build him like this.

The way I see this guy is someone who gets up real close to his enemies (within their melee circle) and strike at all the vital areas. Ligaments and main arteries (this would be resembled by the crits scored). Could I also get some advice on creating a crit fisher? On the side, I am 99% sure I'll be following Darrin's suggestions for my character. I'm not sure how he knew, but my character is very likely coming from the "North", so the Frostblood idea is a very nice character touch.

[Urpriest]

Okay, the tripping is a nice idea, but I'm also looking at making him a Crit fisher instead but I've only heard the words Crit fisher and it sounds cool, altho I have no idea how to build him like this.

The way I see this guy is someone who gets up real close to his enemies (within their melee circle) and strike at all the vital areas. Ligaments and main arteries (this would be resembled by the crits scored). Could I also get some advice on creating a crit fisher? On the side, I am 99% sure I'll be following Darrin's suggestions for my character. I'm not sure how he knew, but my character is very likely coming from the "North", so the Frostblood idea is a very nice character touch.

For crit fishers, you want increased crit chance (you're already starting with Kukris, so Keen or Improved Critical is most of what you can do on that front), cool effects on crit (these will mostly come from magic weapons), and large static bonus damage. Unfortunately the latter is a bit trickier than normal to get since you're doing a Swift Hunter (and thus a lot of your damage is dice-based), but there are TWF-friendly sources of bonus damage, some of which may be listed in Darrin's OffHandbook.

[Flickerdart]

Okay, the tripping is a nice idea, but I'm also looking at making him a Crit fisher instead but I've only heard the words Crit fisher and it sounds cool, altho I have no idea how to build him like this.

The way I see this guy is someone who gets up real close to his enemies (within their melee circle) and strike at all the vital areas. Ligaments and main arteries (this would be resembled by the crits scored). Could I also get some advice on creating a crit fisher? On the side, I am 99% sure I'll be following Darrin's suggestions for my character. I'm not sure how he knew, but my character is very likely coming from the "North", so the Frostblood idea is a very nice character touch.
The problem with critfishing on a Swift Hunter is that Skirmish damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. Since Skirmish is precision damage, though, nothing stops you from fluffing your Skirmish attacks exactly the way you want to.

[Rebel7284]

By the way, I really like Mystic Ranger variant from Dragon Magazine. Much faster spell progression up to 5th level spells!

Taking that with Sword of the Arcane Order will allow you to have a bunch of Wizard spells. Anything from Wraithstrike to Draconic Polymorph can be yours. :)

[Outback]

The problem with critfishing on a Swift Hunter is that Skirmish damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. Since Skirmish is precision damage, though, nothing stops you from fluffing your Skirmish attacks exactly the way you want to.

This is true and I do see the Skirmishing as moving into your opponent's fighting circle (so uncomfortably close) and "working the body" (just using a razorsharp knife the size of a small spade).

[Darrin]

Okay, the tripping is a nice idea, but I'm also looking at making him a Crit fisher instead but I've only heard the words Crit fisher and it sounds cool, altho I have no idea how to build him like this.


"Crit-fisher" or "Crit-hunter" means your build optimizes towards a large number of attacks and uses a lot of abilities/debuffs/conditions that trigger off of criticals. Damage (precision or otherwise) isn't so much of a concern. The rogue's "crippling strike" is the best example in Core. Most crit-fisher builds rely heavily on Tome of Battle, but all crit-fishers are heavily dependent on how they enchant their weapons. If the DM is being stingy with Wealth By Level or making you jump through extra hoops to get your weapons enchanted, then that may be a red flag to look at taking the build in another direction.

Ideally, you want all your weapons to have a high crit range, but the only weapons that combine this with the ability to trip your opponent is the khopesh and double khopesh (both in Sandstorm). They're exotic, so you'll need to find room for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Although you can dual-wield a pair of khopesh swords with Oversized TWF, the double khopesh is probably your best choice as it only requires EWP to TWF with it.



I'm not sure how he knew, but my character is very likely coming from the "North", so the Frostblood idea is a very nice character touch.

It's not so much mind-reading. Because of their Endurance/Bonus feat ability, any build with Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc and three levels of Ranger means they get the equivalent of a human bonus feat. If you already know you're going to be taking Ranger levels, then that plus the Str bonus usually puts them ahead of humans as the "best race" for making a melee-oriented meatbag.


By the way, I really like Mystic Ranger variant from Dragon Magazine. Much faster spell progression up to 5th level spells!

Taking that with Sword of the Arcane Order will allow you to have a bunch of Wizard spells. Anything from Wraithstrike to Draconic Polymorph can be yours. :)

Even better, Mystic Ranger delays Endurance until Ranger 4. If you're playing a Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc, then this means you get a bonus feat as soon as you meet the prereqs for Sword of the Arcane Order: four levels of Ranger. If Mystic Ranger is allowed, I like to use this trick to pick up feats with oddball prereqs that don't fall naturally at 3rd/6th/9th level, like Superior Unarmed Strike, Knock-Down, or Improved Natural Attack.

So... how to get EWP Double Khopesh and Improved Critical into the build... hrrm.

Race: Frostblood Half-Orc (Dragon Magic)
1) Scout 1. Skirmish 1d6. Feat: Combat Reflexes.
2) Ranger 1. Feat: Bonus: Track. Favored Enemy: Undead. Wild Empathy -> Spiritual Connection ACF (CChamp).
3) Ranger 2. Feat: EWP Double Khopesh. Bonus: TWF
4) Cloistered Cleric 1. Deity: Io. Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Magic Domain.
5) Scout 2.
6) Scout 3. Feat: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
7) Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1. Pounce (CChamp), Whirling Frenzy ACF (Unearthed Arcana).
8) Wolf Totem Barbarian 2. Bonus: Improved Trip.
9) Ranger 3. Feat: Knock-Down. Bonus: Endurance -> Extra Turning.
10) Ranger 4. Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
11) Ranger 5. Favored Enemy: Constructs.
12) Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved TWF. Feat: Double Hit. Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
13) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4.
14) Ranger 7. Skirmish 3d6AC+3/5d6AC+5.
15) Ranger 8. Feat: Improved Critical.
16) Ranger 9. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
17) Ranger 10. Favored Enemy: Elementals.
18) Ranger 11. Feat: Robilar's Gambit. Bonus: Greater TWF. Skirmish 4d6AC+4/6d6AC+6.
19) Highland Stalker 1.
20) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 5d6AC+4/7d6AC+6.

Hrmmph. Improved Trip and Improved Critical come in kinda late. But I think the Cloistered Cleric dip is better to have early than Pounce. It may be possible to move up some feats by taking the Champion of the Wild ACF, but you lose all your Ranger spellcasting. You'd still have spell-trigger wands via the Magic domain, but only from the Wizard/Sorcerer list.

Or if you want more skirmish damage (up to 9d6), let's try a Kitchen Sink build:

Race: Frostblood Half-Orc (Dragon Magic)
1) Scout 1. Skirmish 1d6. Feat: Combat Reflexes.
2) Ranger 1. Feat: Bonus: Track. Favored Enemy: Undead. Wild Empathy -> Spiritual Connection ACF (CChamp).
3) Ranger 2. Feat: EWP Double Khopesh. Bonus: TWF
4) Cloistered Cleric 1. Deity: Io. Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Magic Domain.
5) Scout 2.
6) Scout 3. Feat: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
7) Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1. Pounce (CChamp), Whirling Frenzy ACF (Unearthed Arcana).
8) Wolf Totem Barbarian 2. Bonus: Improved Trip.
9) Scout 4. Feat: Knock-Down. Bonus: Improved Skirmish 2d6AC+1/4d6AC+3.
10) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance -> Improved Critical. Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
11) Ranger 4. Bonus: Improved TWF (Champion of the Wild ACF)
12) Ranger 5. Feat: Double Hit. Favored Enemy: Constructs. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4.
13) Dragon Devotee 1.
14) Dragon Devotee 2. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
15) Dragon Devotee 3. Feat: Robilar's Gambit. Sorcerer 1 casting (choose two divination spells)
16) Dragon Devotee 4. Skirmish 5d6AC+2/7d6AC+4.
17) Unseen Seer 1. Skirmish 6d6AC+2/8d6AC+4.
18) Unseen Seer 2. Feat: Greater TWF.
19) Unseen Seer 3.
20) Unseen Seer 4. Skirmish 7d6AC+2/9d6AC+4.

Note: If you prefer to double your crit range via Keen, then consider replacing Improved Critical with Dragonfire Strike (Dragon Magic). This would give you an additonal +1d6 skirmish, for up to 10d6 with Improved Skirmish. Then take Draconic Heritage at 15th instead of Robilar's Gambit to switch your Dragonfire Strike damage to a different energy type, such as [cold] or [sonic].

[Outback]

The Half orc character didn't become who I hoped he'd become, but last night's "on the fly" RPG allowed me to make this character idea on a Razorclaw Shifter. At lvl 3, I'm having Scout1/Barbarian1/Ranger1. If I'm doing it right, the Barbarian's Whirling Frenzy nets me a second attack, a third when ShiftRaging. And thus far, it has been quite succesful. A Shifter can add his strength bonus on both claw attacks, right? Also, I'm still sticking to the first build, I don't want to dip into non-fitting classes, just for the benefits. So far ScoutBarbRanger all fit for me, Cloistered Cleric, not. I'll also be dropping the tripping. So this for the first ten levels.

1) Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (CChamp), Skirmish 1d6.
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track. Favored Enemy: ??????. (Not sure we'll be facing much undead, so probably Humans.) Wild Empathy -> Spiritual Connection ACF (CChamp). <- This I really like, worked like a charm :D
3) Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1. Feat: Combat Reflexes. Pounce (CChamp)This works like a treat too!, Whirling Frenzy ACF (Unearthed Arcana).
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
6) Scout 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Improved Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
7) Ranger 2. Bonus: Two Weapon Fighting
8) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance
9) Ranger 4. Animal Companion -> Distracting Attack ACF. Feat: Shifter Savagery. (Claws do 1d8/19-20x2 when ShiftRaging)
10) Ranger 5. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4. Favored Enemy: Constructs or Undead.

I'm not too familiar with how the Shifting works, I hope I can keep increasing the number of claw attacks or improve its damage.

[Darrin]

2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track. Favored Enemy: ??????. (Not sure we'll be facing much undead, so probably Humans.)


The reason Undead is the first Favored Enemy is because one of the benefits of the Swift Hunter feat is you can do precision damage to your favored enemy even if they are normally immune. Undead are the most commonly encountered creature type at all levels that's immune to crits/precision damage, so numbers-wise it's usually the best pick for your first favored enemy. Second most common is Constructs, third is probably Elementals. If you're not worried about crit-immune enemies shrugging off your skirmish damage, then the Favored Enemy: Arcanists ACF (Complete Mage) is tasty awesomesauce.

Glad to hear things are going well!

[Outback]

You have any tips on improving Shifter damage and attacks too, Darrin? I'm a Razorclaw.

[Val666]

It may take some space in the build but being a shifter and having barb levels opens the feat Shifter Savagery improves your natural attack damage and their critical strile chance. Also if you want pure fighting classes, add a lvl of Warblade for the first lvl stance that helps critical a lot. (Dont remember the name, i think is blood in the water stance?)

[Outback]

Yeah, I'll be taking that at level nine. Will be ripping a whole new size of a-holes with that!

[Darrin]

You have any tips on improving Shifter damage and attacks too, Darrin? I'm a Razorclaw.

Shifters can't shift often enough that it makes sense to invest a lot of resources into it. With only Shifter Savagery, you're still only able to shift 1/day for a few rounds. Given how feat-intensive TWF/Swift Hunter is, there usually isn't much room for any decent number of Shifter feats. You're better off investing in your kukris, as those work in all 144,000 rounds every day.

That being said... Wyrmfang Amulet (1350 GP, MIC) would allow your claws to be considered magic for the purposes of overcoming DR. A Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) can be used to give your natural weapons enhancements.

[Outback]

True enough, this campaign is one we all take turns GM-ing, so as part GM, I'll be approving my own suggestion to be able to Shift more often a day. One of the perks of being one of the bosses :D