Building a Tetori Monk [Pathfinder Only]

[thematgreen]

Good Afternoon, Giants

I am going to be getting into a new Pathfinder game in a month or so and have been itching to play a grappler. I've always avoided grappling and combat manuvers like the plague, I want to play one now, but because of my aversion I am completely ignorant of the best way to go about it. I come to the Giants for help.

The group is low to mid tier, mostly going for RP strong characters and little optimization. I have more expierence and don't want my character to replace the need for other players. The DM doesn't really care what we do to make our characters and pretty much anything we want goes, as long as it's not unbalancing.

Pertinent Information:

Sources: All official Pathfinder material. Third Party stuff is allowed too, as long as there is a source I can refer to. 3.5 is a no go, so no 3.5

Race: Human (Open to others if there are better options, nothing too exotic, though)

Alingment: Lawful Evil

Class: Monk - Tetori
Willing to multiclass, but want to be able to grapple and choke, trip or whatever for combat manuvers.

Weapons: Maybe a net or some rope? I don't know if I am going to need/want one.

Stat Rolls: 18 18 16 12 10 10

Other than the choices above I am open to nearly anything regarding this build.

Thank you for help in advance, and I eagerly look forward to see what you all can do.

[Xsatra]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406156-Dragon-wrestling-or-proof-that-CMB-CMD-is-attainable-to-the-point-of-being-broken) should be of some use to you as a resource.

[Psyren]

Your best weapons for a grappler are either going to be your unarmed strike (so that you can keep your hands free) or a Dan Bong + Grabbing Style for the easy bonus. The linked thread has most of the gear you'll need.

Do you have Pathfinder Unchained? The Stamina system takes any combat-feat-heavy build - and a grappler definitely qualifies - and makes it much better. For instance, adding in Stamina allows you to:

- Use Grabbing Style to continue threatening the area around you while you grapple.
- Maintain Grapple as a swift without Rapid Grappler.
- Swap styles as a free action when it's not your turn.
- Gain up to +4 untyped to your grapple from feats you'd be taking anyway.
- Chokehold at a -1 penalty instead of -5.

[Geddy2112]

Dragon wrestling covers the mechanics pretty down pat.
As far as meshing with the party and not becoming broken:
Grappling is a feast or famine build-sometimes you will dominate combats, other times you will be stuck fighting unarmed without flurry of blows against things that are bad to touch(g. cubes). For stats, Strength and wis are your most important, I would put your 18's there. Put your 16 in con, a 12 in dex sucks but the others are more important in the long run. Putting a 10 in intelligence and charisma will let other classes shine for knowledge checks and social interactions. If things go south, you can always beat the face of the NPC the party bard accidentally insulted or the monster the wizard failed to identify. Also, while you are grappling you will make enemies easier to hit for your other melee friends, so you can set up a "I hold them you hit them" synergy.

[Psyren]

You can also use Body Shield to make their allies hit them too. This works particualrly well with ranged attacks for those monsters that lack Precise Shot.

[thematgreen]

Dragon wrestling covers the mechanics pretty down pat.
As far as meshing with the party and not becoming broken:
Grappling is a feast or famine build-sometimes you will dominate combats, other times you will be stuck fighting unarmed without flurry of blows against things that are bad to touch(g. cubes). For stats, Strength and wis are your most important, I would put your 18's there. Put your 16 in con, a 12 in dex sucks but the others are more important in the long run. Putting a 10 in intelligence and charisma will let other classes shine for knowledge checks and social interactions. If things go south, you can always beat the face of the NPC the party bard accidentally insulted or the monster the wizard failed to identify. Also, while you are grappling you will make enemies easier to hit for your other melee friends, so you can set up a "I hold them you hit them" synergy.

You've hit the nail on the head for what I was going for. Instead of being able to destroy anything, and trivialize the group, I want to be able to choke out what I can, and avoid those things that I can't. I am also looking to hold down the bad guy so my friends can poke him with sharp objects.

Regarding Dex, as a Human I can bump it by 2 at character creation and get 14, which is a little better.

[Hrugner]

Bring some rope, lots of rope


Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

leaving them bound


Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.

As tetori, you don't have to worry about losing flurry by wearing armor and a shield. Depending on others powers, you may want to grab an armored martial weapon user class at some point.

[9mm]

Your best weapons for a grappler are either going to be your unarmed strike (so that you can keep your hands free) or a Dan Bong + Grabbing Style for the easy bonus. The linked thread has most of the gear you'll need.

Do you have Pathfinder Unchained? The Stamina system takes any combat-feat-heavy build - and a grappler definitely qualifies - and makes it much better. For instance, adding in Stamina allows you to:

- Use Grabbing Style to continue threatening the area around you while you grapple.
- Maintain Grapple as a swift without Rapid Grappler.
- Swap styles as a free action when it's not your turn.
- Gain up to +4 untyped to your grapple from feats you'd be taking anyway.
- Chokehold at a -1 penalty instead of -5.

I prefer Kraken Style over Grabbing, However if there is one feat a grappler should have it's Deadly Grappler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-grappler-combat)

[Psyren]

As tetori, you don't have to worry about losing flurry by wearing armor and a shield.

I don't advise this; you're not proficient, you lose your monk AC bonus, and a shield also takes up one of your hands, causing you to suffer penalties to your main schtick.


I prefer Kraken Style over Grabbing, However if there is one feat a grappler should have it's Deadly Grappler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-grappler-combat)

I'm not sure I'd advise this either; it tends to average out to only a few points difference. Plus the FAQ on size increases means you only get one real and one effective, both of which you can get without spending a feat.

[Hrugner]

Sorry, I was typing one handed so didn't go into enough detail. Taking a one level dip into a heavy armor class will give you access to heavy armor and a shield, taking the first feat in the grabbing style line will remove the negatives for grappling one handed. You'll also want to wear armor of some sort for the armor spikes, if there's a way to get armor spikes without losing that wisdom to AC, I don't know about it (outside of a really favorable reading of the Klar). I would like to though. Taking 4 levels of Fighter:brawler would probably be worthwhile. armor, weapons, +1 to unarmed +3 to damage on both unarmed and the spikes, a reach weapon if you need it and three more combat feats.

I'd like to hear alternatives though, I'm certainly no master of tetori design.

[thematgreen]

Sorry, I was typing one handed so didn't go into enough detail. Taking a one level dip into a heavy armor class will give you access to heavy armor and a shield, taking the first feat in the grabbing style line will remove the negatives for grappling one handed. You'll also want to wear armor of some sort for the armor spikes, if there's a way to get armor spikes without losing that wisdom to AC, I don't know about it (outside of a really favorable reading of the Klar). I would like to though. Taking 4 levels of Fighter:brawler would probably be worthwhile. armor, weapons, +1 to unarmed +3 to damage on both unarmed and the spikes, a reach weapon if you need it and three more combat feats.

I'd like to hear alternatives though, I'm certainly no master of tetori design.

That sounds aces, but I worry about how wearing armor will effect my monk shenanigans, also, losing levels in Monk, wouldn't that mess with my Tetori stuff, such as holding down monsters with freedom of movement?

[Psyren]

Armor spikes are useful on a grapple-focused Brawler (spiky studded leather) or Unarmed Fighter (anything), who can wear the armor to employ them. For Tetori monks, you want a high Wis anyway for the ki pool (which powers various tetori/qinggong abilities) and even your damage (Kraken Style) so you may as well maintain the bonus to AC. You also lose it from attempting the shield, and if you're taking Grabbing Style anyway you're much better off with a Dan Bong in the offhand instead for an extremely cheap +2 in the early game. (note that Dan Bong can also give you a small shield bonus from the blocking property.) Dipping also delays your tetori abilities and reduces your ki pool. I still have to advise against it.

Also, if you add in Stamina, Grabbing Style lets you focus both hands on a single target for a bonus to grapple if you don't want to use a Dan Bong.

Alternatively, you can be a Kasatha, skip Grabbing Style entirely, hold a dan bong in one of your other hands, and still grapple with two. Or take Grabbing Style and get both the "two hands" stamina bonus and the Dan Bong bonus for +4 untyped. Kasatha also have fantastic monk stats.

[Hrugner]

I admit, I don't know anything about the stamina rules, so if you're using those I can't really help.
I don't think monks gain automatic proficiency in all monk weapons so the dan bong isn't a draw for staying straight monk; it does encourage one level dipping into unarmed warrior for all monk weapons and a free no prerequisite style feat.

I see what you're saying and, I imagine if making a character high enough level to grab a "guided" amulet of mighty fist, you could make wisdom your top stat.

Still, brawling juggernaut full plate with ki focusing wyroot armor spikes will do more for your AC damage grapple check and ki than going without armor. Though I should probably price check that single piece of equipment... and figure out what sort of materials are permitted for armor spikes. Since rosewood armor counts as armor spikes, it seems reasonable to expect that wyroot could be used as well.

Tetori gets a bunch of cool abilities that prevent enemies fleeing. Those abilities are made even better by having most of them not require a save. Since they don't have a level tied save to worry about (except for ghost grappling) losing a few levels here and there isn't that big a deal. I think going either way, armor or no armor, would work great; judge which one will be better based on how the game goes.

[Teh_das]

Ive always liked cavalier 2 (order of the penitent)/tetori monk for my grapple builds. It removes a major penalty for hogtying, and removes the auto success for a crit to escape artist checks. I had a half orc pacifist who carried huge spools of chain and his whole schtick was grappling, pinning, and hogtying in a single turn.

It also gives armor proficiencies and a mount on the side, so theres that.

[Psyren]

Note: Not being confrontational, just continuing to explain why I don't advise this.


I admit, I don't know anything about the stamina rules, so if you're using those I can't really help.
I don't think monks gain automatic proficiency in all monk weapons so the dan bong isn't a draw for staying straight monk; it does encourage one level dipping into unarmed warrior for all monk weapons and a free no prerequisite style feat.

You will need a feat (or fighter dip) for the armor/shield proficiency anyway, so the feat or dip needed for EWP:Dan Bong is a wash.


I see what you're saying and, I imagine if making a character high enough level to grab a "guided" amulet of mighty fist, you could make wisdom your top stat.

It doesn't have to be your top stat, it can still be secondary. But even if you don't have Wis to attack, you will want it moderate/high for the ki pool.



Still, brawling juggernaut full plate with ki focusing wyroot armor spikes will do more for your AC damage grapple check and ki than going without armor.

Unfortunately, Brawling can only be applied to light armor.

And I'll just point out that, while Tetori's abilities are neat, they're not really something you absolutely need to be effective. Very few enemies have freedom of movement, and for teleporters you can usually force an unbeatable concentration check with just a little optimization due to how much harder those are in PF.