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BardicDuelist
2007-04-18, 07:01 PM
First, I would like to note that I favor heavy RP and story games over optimization, but I enjoy optimization as a "side hobby" when I am not playing D&D. It allows my mind to wander.

Now to the point. What do you guys (and gals) think is the best build for a bard? Any standard race (including those for Forgotten Realms and Eberron without level adjustments) is fine, as is any prestige class. I'm looking for a mechanic build (my favorite RP build is a Master of Masks).

Tiberian
2007-04-18, 07:26 PM
Elven Bards (at least back in 3e) get all the weapon proficiencies if the whip is taken. Then, for a good rp optimization, go for a mastery of whipfighting and take Perform: Whipdancing. Attacking becomes part of Bardic Music.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-18, 08:06 PM
I guess I should show an example. (Though thanks for the input Tiberian)
Here is my "perfect" bard.
Bard 7, Spellthief 1, Arcane Duelist 2, Sublime Chord 4, Seeker of Song 1, Spellsinger 5

FEATS and FLAWS: Flaws (Murkey-Eyed, Frail), Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Skill Focus (Perform), Master Spellthief, Improved Counterspell, Versitile Performer, Practiced Caster

This gives me the ability to steal 8th level spells, cast spells up to 9th level, use seeker music as a sixth level seeker, and add my Cha to AC, all with a caster level of 20.

As you can see, I focused on melee and versitility. The healing seeker music is better than a cure spell, and the damage leaves room for a more versitile spell selection (of sor/wiz or bard spells). Nearly any spells I don't know, I can take if I come across them. Most of the feats are pre-reqs though.

Darrin
2007-04-18, 09:51 PM
Now to the point. What do you guys (and gals) think is the best build for a bard? Any standard race (including those for Forgotten Realms and Eberron without level adjustments) is fine, as is any prestige class. I'm looking for a mechanic build (my favorite RP build is a Master of Masks).

Best race would probably be Star Elf (-2 Con, +2 Cha), which might be considered Faerun-only but their fluff says they're extra-planar. Otherwise, add the Magic-Blooded racial template from Dragon #306 to add +2 Cha/-2 Wis to any base class (0 Level Adjustment).

The strongest build is probably a Sublime Chord, but that's essentially playing a Wizard/Sorcerer who can sing and looks good in tights.

Then there's the Bard/Druid/Green Whisperer/Arcane Heirophant. Add Sublime Chord for 9th level Sorcerer and 9th level Druid spellcasting.

If you're looking for a "social engineering" build... not really familiar with any, although I imagine there's probably an UberDiplomat out there: "I don't care how pissed off the Laernian Hydra is, I just rolled 54 on my Diplomacy check so it's asking us in for tea and crumpets."

ocato
2007-04-18, 10:01 PM
I don't know a lot about the PrCs you listed, or a few of the feats. How do you add your charisma to your AC? I assume that's a PrC thing, but if it is one of those feats, I am interested in your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I find when "optimising" a bard, ranged weapons don't hurt. Bards have a very light case of Multiple Attribute Disorder if they try to do too much at once. This helps you eliminate strength as a "hey, I'd better at least put a few points in that, I can spare some CON, right?" that some bards are prone to. I like to go human for the extra feat and skills but elf for the longbow isn't unheard of. The +2 dexterity is also delightful for a spoony bard who'd rather slink and sneak than stand and deliver. Skill focus perform is a little uh... I dunno, I don't care for it to be honest. Unless you need it for a PrC, again I admit I am unfamiliar because I almost always go full bard. 90% of perform's uses are qualifying for bardic music and any time you desperately need to pump it (Fascinate) just use Versatile Performer (for the bard who always seems to misplace his lute) for the nifty +2. I mean, you probably pump Perform to max for bardic music, so is a perform roll of your level +3 (max ranks) +2 (VP) +3 (SF) really necessary? Sounds overkillish to me. I'd consider replacing it with a metamagic feat (Heighten isn't bad for CC, but Extend makes life wonderful), or maybe Spell Focus (Enchantment) if you like to do CC.

If you choose to replace your rapier (or weapon of choice) with the similar shortbow, you can free up Weapon Finesse and Combat Expertise (and arguably dodge and mobility, but I can see keeping them for the AoO you get from shooting and also for all around extra defense in bad situations). Combat Expertise isn't necessary because you'll be spooning it up behind someone meatier. You can take those two feats and work on your bowing, maybe point blank shot and precise shot, or point blank and weapon focus to make your shooting fairly accurate as an additional measure. With this change you are more or less equal, but without the danger of going toe to toe with someone who will eat your heart. With the exception of those pesky touch-range heals and buffs, a Bard is often best in the back line with massive dexterity. Why not play to that strength?

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-18, 10:31 PM
Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds) and Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn). I was firmly in the "bards are useless" camp until learning about these feats. Add in Arcane Strike and Power Attack for even more horror.

Pink
2007-04-18, 10:38 PM
I've always played a bard as the guy that makes the party even more unstoppable than they already are. Song of the Heart, Inspirational Shout, any level 3 bard can do a +3 inspire courage already. Buffs and heals. Of course, I've heard That they can make very nice gishes if you bard to a certain point, a combat level, take Sublime Chord then Eldritch Knight. Mind, I've never really fully built a character to epic levels for no reason. I just play :D

ocato
2007-04-18, 10:59 PM
Song of the Heart and Inspirational Shout are two feats(?) I hear mentioned a lot but can never get anyone to tell me what they do and what books they're from. People are like "Bards are only good with X feat" and I've almost always never heard of the feat. I'm sure these feats are wonderful but bards can be extremely potent with nothing but core spells and feats.

Everyman
2007-04-19, 12:31 AM
The "optimized" bard does not specialize in completing his own tasks, but rather making OTHER people do it for him. Whether he buffs them into tanks or controls peoples minds, intimidates the hell out of a baddy or sweet-talks the king, bards get others to do their stuff.

If you need an "optimized" bard, then I suggest ONE feat (though it requires DM approval): Leadership.

Give a bard a toadie and you'll be amazed at what he can do with it.:smallsmile:

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 12:33 AM
The new Swiftblade looks like a decent combat bard class.

Isomenes
2007-04-19, 12:38 AM
Song of the Heart and Inspirational Shout are two feats(?) I hear mentioned a lot but can never get anyone to tell me what they do and what books they're from. People are like "Bards are only good with X feat" and I've almost always never heard of the feat. I'm sure these feats are wonderful but bards can be extremely potent with nothing but core spells and feats.

Song of the Heart is a feat from Ebberon. I haven't heard of Inspirational Shout, but the swift spell Insp. Boost is from Complete Adventurer.

As for the OP, I found an excellent Web page breaking down enhancements for the bard:

http://www.codepoet.org/~markw/DnD/bard-reflections.html

Everyman
2007-04-19, 12:38 AM
The new Swiftblade looks like a decent combat bard class.

Except they'll never get to use the Time stop ability until 20th level.:smalleek:

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 12:50 AM
Except they'll never get to use the Time stop ability until 20th level.:smalleek:

You could just delay taking Swiftblade 10 until 20th, then.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-19, 08:19 AM
The Arcane Duelist was a free Prc by Wizards on their site for (I think) "random enounters". Just search for it on their website.

After two levels, you add your Cha. to AC. Very useful IMO

cupkeyk
2007-04-19, 08:44 AM
I like the half elf substitution levels from Races of Destiny, since you can neutralize a sentient opponent each round for an absurd DC that even clerics and wizards will find it difficult or impossible to resist. Lyric Thaumaturge lets you be an efficient blaster; deal damage AND make them fight each other with Song of Discord? Yes, please. I like using the sonic might ability of spells that don't deal damage hence making it impossible to save from the damage. The Advanced Learning is really nice icing on top.

Half Elf Bard5 Mind Bender1 Lyric Thaumaturge5 Sublime Chord 9

Person_Man
2007-04-19, 08:50 AM
1) What general fluff do you want to follow?

2) Will you only accept Bard 20, or is a Bard/PrC ok, or can it be Bard/Multiclass/PrC/PrC?

3) What do you want to be able to do?

4) What books are available to you?

Annarrkkii
2007-04-19, 09:32 AM
I'll second Person_Man. Give me a few specifics, and I'll see what I can come up with. Naturally, the build has to be primarily bard, otherwise you're not optimizing a bard, but a little bit of multiclassery never hurt anyone too much.

Except, of course, if you spread yourself over too many baseclasses.

Pink
2007-04-19, 11:28 AM
Inspirational Boost (I always call it shout because that's what the description implies you do.) is a swift first level spell that adds a +1 to all inspire courage bonuses.

Song of the heart is just...win for any buffing bard, which as I've said is how i see an optimized bard as, the one that makes their team mates unstoppable. It essentially increases the power of all bardic music abilities by a +1. bonuses, temp hit dies, save DCs, pretty much any numerical value for every music effect increases by 1. it can be taken at third level too.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-19, 02:19 PM
1) What general fluff do you want to follow?

None, this isn't for a character I want to play, just to see what other people do to create optomized bards.

2) Will you only accept Bard 20, or is a Bard/PrC ok, or can it be Bard/Multiclass/PrC/PrC?

Bard/PrC is fine, even multiclass (as long as it is significantly bard or a bardish PrC.

3) What do you want to be able to do?

It doesn't matter, I like to see how some people favor "boost specialist" while I try to make the best "party of one" type character.

4) What books are available to you?

Basically any book, except third party.

If you want an example, I put one as the third post in this thread.

jameswilliamogle
2007-04-19, 02:50 PM
Here was a build I used for a L5 one-shot a few weeks ago:

Strongheart Halfling Bard 5
Had an 18 Dex, 10 Str, and Cha 15 or 16 (not exactly sure)
Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Deadly Defense

Two important Spells, always cast before combat: Alter Self (Troglodyte), Cat's Grace.

Round 1 cast Inspire Courage, start singing about hogarth the happy halfling.
Round 2 fight using 2 points of Combat Expertise, activating Deadly Defense, and using a +1 Rapier. He also had a Mithril Chain Shirt and buckler.

He had a +10 to hit, d4+d6+2 damage, and an AC of 29.

It was a lot of fun! Had he gone further, he would've taken it to Bard 8, probably taken Snowflake Wardancer, Sublime Chord, and the Stormsinger PrC.

ocato
2007-04-19, 03:21 PM
That link was interesting, but I really do not agree with the "Bards have crappy save DCs" idea. Yes our spell levels are a little lower than wizards but it isn't a reason to scrap Crowd Control. Thanks for the information on the feat and spell, what're the prereqs for that Song of the Heart?

The Gilded Duke
2007-04-19, 03:31 PM
Bard 4, Warblade 1, Warchanter 10

Bard and Warblade taken together allow you to enter Warchanter at level 6 letting you get its abilities early as possible. Warchanter is a wonderful combat bard prestige class, full BAB, d8 hitpoints, d4 skill points, and great bardic music abilities.

The highlights of them (All can be used on yourself or others):
Inspire Toughness: Single target gets double your Warchanter levels in temperary hp.

Inspire Recklessness: Single target gains ability to sacrifice points of ac to add to damage. Limited by their Base attack Bonus.

Combine Songs: Can start two different songs and play them at the same time. Includes both Warchanter and Bard songs.

Inspire Awe: An amazing area of effect fear power that actually effects people of your HD and hire signifigantly.

Inspire Legion: All allies in 60 feet have the same base attack bonus of character with highest base attack bonus in the group.

Make sure to pick up leadership, get a bunch of level one warriors with power attack, now they can power attack up to your base attack bonus. For yourself pick up shock trooper. Now you can give up up to your (current) base attack bonus in AC twice to get +3x your base attack bonus on a two handed weapon. Throw in some leap attack and such to make it better.

The single level in warblade helps you meet prerequisites and helps you pick up martial maneuvers and lets you refresh them easily. To go with the bard/warleader theme I'd go for White Raven maneuvers myself.

The Bard, Warblade, Warchanter build can work well as a group buffer or as a retribution shock trooper depending on which feats are chosen.

If you go some mix of the two, or retribution shock trooper you can go with the image of the armorless warrior.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-19, 03:58 PM
Guilded Duke: For a melee oriented military bard, that would be great. I'd just give it Command Aura feats from Heroes of Battle, and as many bardic music feats I can get my hands on.
For 20 lv, what would you increase? Bard, Warblade, or would you add annother PrC?

Also, which do you like more, the Sublime Chord or the Seeker of Song?

ocato
2007-04-19, 08:50 PM
Oh, by the way. Invisible Bard Singing with Message for the phantom buffer is really clever. I never thought of using message like that.

Pink
2007-04-19, 11:35 PM
If you're going to do invisible bard, may as well do it right. I'm talking about subsonics. Moreover, since invisible bard is probably best doing a debuff routine as well, subsonics on a dirgesinger perhaps. Mind, i haven't looked at the dirgesinger too much so my memeory on how good it's debuffs are may be fuzzy. In fact, i need to look at bard PrCs period.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-19, 11:36 PM
this is a funny thread....bards and optimization is just plain comedy gold

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-20, 12:38 AM
Subsonics + that feat that lets you cast spells through song = stealth caster.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-20, 07:15 AM
Innis Cabal: That was kind of the point. But the pletheora of options was what I wanted to see, not to make the perfect character.

Now I have a question: How effective would a single level of cleric and feats like Divine Might, or Divine Shield be? (It would allow you to add your Cha to attack and damage or AC 3+Cha per day)

cupkeyk
2007-04-20, 08:56 AM
Innis Cabal:

The bard used to be gimp but given the many splat books that augment their abilities, they have not been gimp for a very long time.

Person_Man
2007-04-20, 10:04 AM
Ah, so this is a kitchen sink thread. OK.

At low levels, Bard/Dragon Shaman/Marshal is a really buff-tastic and a great party face. But your BAB sucks rocks, and your bonuses quickly lose pace with what people can get from spells.

Bard get whip for free, so a Marshal/Bard is quite good at battlefield control.

For insane damage output, Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Bard 1/War Chanter 3/Ronin 2/Warmind 10 with Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Karmic Strike, Rob's Gambit, and Claws of the Vampire. You can actually get your AC to negative levels this way.

For shear brokenness, use a Bard/Ur Priest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge. 9th level divine and arcane spells, one non-gestalt PC.

But unless there's something specific you want to do, there's really no good advice that I can give.

ocato
2007-04-20, 10:45 AM
Given the limited use of most cantrips plus the amazing length/range/target spread on message, a bard can probably get by without Subsonics to free up feat space for the other ten tons of feats you're going to be picking between. I mean, Versatile Performer, Extra Music, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Lasting Song, and Lyric Song (no one defined that for me) is a heavy list. Then you look at your Spell Focus (Enchantment), Extend Spell, and any weapon feats (Finesse, Combat Expertise, or any of the Bow feats you might choose)-- not to mention if you're a dodge/mobility nut or need something for a PrC-- and you get to a very "pick and choose carefully" place based on what fits and what doesn't. Granted if Subsonics is your thing, you'll probably take it over one of the others.

Talya
2007-04-20, 11:58 AM
Today is the first time I'm looking at Sublime Chord, and damn. I'm realizing now i'd have done better on my 2 bard/6 sorc/5 heartwarder to single class bard up to 8, take 2 heartwarder levels, 1 sublime chord level, then 3 more heartwarder levels.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-20, 12:01 PM
Keep in mind that while Sublime Chord is a 5th-to-9th-level spell progression, they get fewer spells known and spells per day than a sorcerer, so. Tradeoffs.

Talya
2007-04-20, 12:10 PM
4th to 9th, actually.

I need to look again, but i seem to remember their spells known being decent from 4-9 (still bad up to 3), but their spells per day are low.

My sorceror spells per day (at 11th level) right now are 6/8/8/8/8/5. I'd need to figure out what a sublime chord would have, but with my charisma it would still be decent.

Corolinth
2007-04-20, 12:15 PM
You're assuming I wouldn't have tweaked your spell list by forcing you to pull level 4-6 spells strictly from the bard list and followed the standard patterns for pulling bard spells from the sorc/wiz spell list for your level 7-9 spells.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-20, 12:23 PM
...why on earth would you do that? Sublime Chord already isn't that great, why absolutely kill its one advantage (fast sor/wiz spell progression)?

Talya
2007-04-20, 12:27 PM
Coro = DMNazi.

He runs a fun game though, and agree or disagree, his reasons for doing anything are understandable.

I doubt he'd have nerfed that. He's assuming I regret going sorceror and is trying to make me feel better. :p

The one thing he did that makes sorceror a better choice is he gave me an extra spell known per level that must be taken from forgotten realms specific sourcebooks. He did NOT give that advantage to bards, just sorcerors. (he was rather specific with that, it's apparent in my bard levels and in the spell list of another pure bard now in our party.) Logically, sublime chord wouldn't get it either, so sorceror is still probably a better choice.

Corolinth
2007-04-20, 12:45 PM
I'm just saying, don't be depressed about how much better you could have been had you done A or B. Having never been forced to tailor the prestige class to suit the campaign, we don't know what I'd have done with it.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-20, 01:39 PM
Has anyone had a chance to do a trench test on a Martial Adept/Bard yet? I'm dying to know how a Crusader/Bard/Warchanter would work out. Or any sort of combination with Bard... so many juicy possibilities.

Probably have nasty MAD, though...

cupkeyk
2007-04-20, 01:58 PM
I think bards go well with White Raven but then warblade/bards would be MAD.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-20, 02:00 PM
Crusader/Bard with Song of the White Raven is solid. Bard 4/Crusader 16, maybe. Do the usual bard-song-boosting things like Song of the Heart and Words of Creation (MAD alert!), and you will be getting +a lot/+a lot AB/damage from the combination of your bard song and Furious Counterstrike.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-20, 02:02 PM
Crusader/Bard with Song of the White Raven is solid. Bard 4/Crusader 16, maybe. Do the usual bard-song-boosting things like Song of the Heart and Words of Creation (MAD alert!), and you will be getting +a lot/+a lot AB/damage from the combination of your bard song and Furious Counterstrike.

Oh I was solid on the theory of it. :p

I actually have a War Chanter drifting around my harddrive. I was hoping someone had something to offer in the way of actual playtesting.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-20, 06:27 PM
Just to reiterate my question: How effective would it be to add a single level of cleric and take one or two divine feats (like Divine Might, or Divine Shield) to add your Cha. to attack, damage, or AC 3+Cha times per day?

Innis Cabal
2007-04-20, 06:49 PM
bards are nothing like they were...which was my point