Shinnok V.S Dovahkiin

[ArlEammon]

The reason why I think Dovahkiin vs Shinnok would be an interesting fight against each other is that Shinnok is an unpredictable fighter, (Outside Corrupted form), he has the power to temporarily steal powers from his enemies, and Dovahkiin is extremely versatile as a warrior himself. He canonically killed the Devourer of Worlds, Alduin, Miraak and Harken. Now, Miraak he killed all by himself. Not to mention Morokei, who is probably at least as powerful as Quan Chi or Shang Tsung.

Dovahkiin's only lack of power is in unarmed fighting and Shinnok has no way to shut off Dovahkiin's Thu'um Powers even if he has a way to shut off his magic ability. Dovahkiin has healing spells, spells that make himself much harder to kill like the Dragonflesh spell that makes his body immensely difficult to harm, and he also has Destruction Master Spells, and the Storm Call Thu'um.

Shinnok, like I said, is an unpredictable fighter. He can temporarily steal enemy's power for a single use, he is much more powerful with his Kamidogu Amulet (Not necessarily overkill in a fight with Dovahkiin),, which allow him to put up force fields in front of him, and attack with fire balls, he is tough enough to take down most Kombatants like he was taking out the trash. It's only the Cage family's Mediterranean/Greek/Roman ancestry of warriors that saved them from being massacred from Shinnok's superior sorcery, martial art's skills and powers of an Elder God. It's worth noting that the God Tier Mortal Kombat characters are terryfingly powerful even in the Elder Scroll's verse.

An idea for the fight is that Dovahkiin was tricked into delivering the Amulet to Shinnok. It can either be real (for a version where Shinnok wins), or fake, planted into Dovahkiin's plans by Quan Chi to deceive Shinnok, though he finds out about the fake, and tries to kill Dovahkiin. Dovahkiin should probably use Nordic Carved Armor Set with Sky Forge Steel Sword and Shield. Despite all this, it's STILL worth noting that despite Dovahkiin's ability to perform impressive feats like murdering bears unarmed, or even the weakest level dragons with only his hands, Shinnok is still light years ahead of him in martial arts. Dovahkiin's mostly just athletic ability and muscle strength. Dovahkiin MIGHT prove to be impressively durable, not just with his armor and armor spells, but with the level of health he has at his disposal. Having certain rings, charms, armors and helmets could let him survive damage to his body that no one can walk away from, probably not even most Kombatants from Earth Realm.

Or he could be a Sorcerer type since he's the Archmage of Winterhold. At least at thel level of 60 he can be very spread out in his power levels without being too weak in any single area. Lightning spells drain an enemy target's magical power, frost reduces stamina, and fire causes more damage over time due to burning. Even despite all this, Shinnok is more powerful than Alduin was, more powerful than Harken and more powerful than Miraak. All three of these characters have "final boss" type battles when you meet them. Dovahkiin needed Felldir and the other two Sovnegard fighters to help him take down Alduin, and Alduin was perhaps the most powerful out of the three mentioned arch rivals of Dovahkiin.

[No brains]

Skyrim is an open world sandbox game and MKX is a 2D fighter. Dovahkiin can climb up slightly off the track and spam ranged attacks. It's not too far off actual online strategy from what I've seen. :smalltongue:

[ArlEammon]

The security cameras are rolling.
"Boss, a ninja has beaten his way across the guard dogs and several security guards! He's headed to the control room!"

Boss: "I"m not worried".

Minion: "Why?"

Boss: "With our guns, he only has the power to freeze".

[Cen]

Dovakhin knows CHIM, right?
So it's not even fair faight, Shinnok is slaughtered.

[Flickerdart]

Dovakhin knows CHIM, right?
So it's not even fair faight, Shinnok is slaughtered.
I feel like "but what if CHIM wasn't a thing" is kind of implied for Elder Scrolls VSes, with the exception of fighting against super-overpowered opponents or large theatres of war where it is impossible to save-scum your way through without possibly undoing some victory elsewhere in the world with every defeat you prevent.

[Andezzar]

What's CHIM?

[ArlEammon]

What's CHIM?

It's almost the same as the Dragonborn being Jesus/Buddha, capable of warping reality powers so anything is possible.

[Calemyr]

What's CHIM?

Honestly, I have no idea, but (from the context I've heard it used in) I believe it's the in-canon explanation for console commands.

[Eldan]

Sort of. CHIM is enlightenment, basically. People often confuse it with being A Hero, as they do similar things.

The Hero is a recurring figure in the Elder scrolls. Apparently a mythic aspect of one or several gods or divine beings, with a list of powers. Among them is something like CHIM, and some control over Akatosh, the time-dragon.

The Hero can break time. They can pause time, even in the midst of battle, to rest, or to think, or even to instantly drink potions, consume items and change their equipment instantly.

If the Hero is defeated, they can turn back time, to a point before their defeat. Even if they are killed.

CHIM is knowing they are a character imagined by another person outside of their reality. They can use this to their advantage.

The most exalted of heroes, if they have CHIM, can use CHIM to access a place outside of reality, from where they can see every part of reality, and the numbers and equations behind it, and even change aspects of reality.

Most of this goes back to the Lessons of Vivec, a list of writings in Morrowind, which are, well, pretty outlandish. But canon. And bits, pieces and hints show up in a lot of other places.

[Andezzar]

OK, but what does the abbreviation stand for?

[Flickerdart]

OK, but what does the abbreviation stand for?
It's not an abbreviation. CHIM is just spelled in all caps.

[Eldan]

Magic words in the Elder Scrolls are always in all caps for some reason.

AE HERMA MORA ALTADOON PADHOME LKHAN AE AI.
AYEM AH SEHTI AE VEHK
AE CHIM CE ALTADOON

[ArlEammon]

Sort of. CHIM is enlightenment, basically. People often confuse it with being A Hero, as they do similar things.

The Hero is a recurring figure in the Elder scrolls. Apparently a mythic aspect of one or several gods or divine beings, with a list of powers. Among them is something like CHIM, and some control over Akatosh, the time-dragon.

The Hero can break time. They can pause time, even in the midst of battle, to rest, or to think, or even to instantly drink potions, consume items and change their equipment instantly.

If the Hero is defeated, they can turn back time, to a point before their defeat. Even if they are killed.

CHIM is knowing they are a character imagined by another person outside of their reality. They can use this to their advantage.

The most exalted of heroes, if they have CHIM, can use CHIM to access a place outside of reality, from where they can see every part of reality, and the numbers and equations behind it, and even change aspects of reality.

Most of this goes back to the Lessons of Vivec, a list of writings in Morrowind, which are, well, pretty outlandish. But canon. And bits, pieces and hints show up in a lot of other places.

Technically, the lore for Skyrim is that the player is not the character, the character is the one doing all of these impossible feats, like pausing the "game" so they can consume all the potions and food they want to regrow their missing limbs and organs, and keep fighting until they've beaten the Ancient Dragon to death with their bare fists, of course, using the Thu'um, and magical powers, but also, using them with a certain speed and cautiousness players have. For instance, having a favorite key, like favoriting the Thunderstorm spell, getting out of the two handed sword weilding stance so you can use powerful destruction spells, etcetera in very fast times.

So, it's not the Dragonborn or the characters using their abilities as the player, but it has the same effect, and since this is a game world, even though Skyrim is supposed to be it's own setting apart from the real world, the mere fact that someone with CHIM is moving around, even without the Thu'um as their weapon, should be a huge encouragement to whomever the Dragonborn is working for.

[Legato Endless]

Honestly, I have no idea, but (from the context I've heard it used in) I believe it's the in-canon explanation for console commands.

The setting of the Elder Scrolls is a dream by an entity (the Godhead). From his dream sprang two opposing complimentary concepts. Stasis and Change. From their mingling came life, the universe and everything. CHIM is first realizing that reality is a dream. The second step is harder. Most come to the conclusion they are a fantasy, and thus disappear. A zero sum. Those who achieve CHIM come to a different conclusion. If everything is a dream, then I am part of the dream, and I am part of the dreamer. And if I am the dream, I can manipulate the dream, for the dream is me.

Those who achieve CHIM can thus alter 'reality'.

[No brains]

From what it sounds like, CHIM wouldn't be too much of an advantage for Dovahkiin. Everyone knows that pausing to get the advantage in a fighting game is a no-no. Trying to use CHIM will get a controller rammed up 'the dreamer's' ass.:smalltongue:

One (more serious) thing to consider for the match is that the term, 'dovahkiin' encompasses many more creatures than than the term, 'Shinnok' does. If DK is under-leveled, Shinnok can probably OHKO them, but also DK has access to a much broader arsenal than Shinnok does at higher levels. The thing I would consider for this fight is to try to determine exactly where in their level progression DK has to be for them to beat Shinnok every time.

Some tricks probably will not work the same way. 100% chameleon is something Reptile can do and that doesn't give him as huge an advantage as it could in Elder Scrolls. Spell turning/absorption could probably ruin most of Shinnok's combo strings.

[Jayngfet]

The thing about CHIM is that it's actual "limit" isn't a hard limit and what you're seeing are examples. I believe that it's implied that CHIM is used between games by NPC's to explain how things change when you go to a new area, since it's basically never as described beforehand(Oblivion being the most obvious example, since the landscape and all the flora and fauna in it were changed).

CHIM doesn't just let you pause to do "game" stuff. CHIM is complete control of reality through basically nothing but pure and raw willpower. You basically stare at the cosmos calling you a literal nothing and shout back I AM with such force it becomes so.

[ArlEammon]

The thing about CHIM is that it's actual "limit" isn't a hard limit and what you're seeing are examples. I believe that it's implied that CHIM is used between games by NPC's to explain how things change when you go to a new area, since it's basically never as described beforehand(Oblivion being the most obvious example, since the landscape and all the flora and fauna in it were changed).

CHIM doesn't just let you pause to do "game" stuff. CHIM is complete control of reality through basically nothing but pure and raw willpower. You basically stare at the cosmos calling you a literal nothing and shout back I AM with such force it becomes so.

I don't remember Pre-Ascension Sheogorath or Dovahkiin being omnipotent. There are limits to CHIM. It's just so strong that people have difficulty understanding it.

[Jayngfet]

I don't remember Pre-Ascension Sheogorath or Dovahkiin being omnipotent.

The thing about CHIM is that it allows you to do anything, technically speaking, but it's the kind of thing that by it's very nature rarely makes you do anything.

Think of it this way. Nothing is stopping the Dovahkiin from just summoning himself a magical weapon of great and terrible power, walking right up to the nearest enemy, and bashing them in with one hit from his new god hammer. Heck, nothing stops the Dovahkiin from just waving his hands and killing every bandit before him as soon as weapons are drawn. You can even do it yourself in the game. But that just takes the thrill out of living. There isn't even any point to doing it that way, simply because with CHIM those bandits were never a challenge to begin with and the end result is the same even if he were to pull out a steel sword he found and enchanted himself "normally"(by learning what normally takes decades in a few days or weeks).

CHIM essentially rigs the world so that you could become an omnipotent god ruling over it, and by some interpretations most of it's known users technically are in some way or another, due to weird cosmological stuff meaning the Dragonborn is simultaneously some random adventurer and an incarnation of space jesus and possibly an incarnation of the planet mars. Or some other such ridiculous thing. Elder Scrolls cosmology is weird. But even though you could be an omnipotent god, you're inclined not to be so, because obviously if you can already warp the world around you in such a drastic way at such a moments notice, you effectivley for all intents and purposes own it and it becomes like that camaro on your front lawn cinderblocks that you always mean to touch up and give a sweet paint job.

[Calemyr]

Where I heard CHIM described before, it was something about 1-1 not equaling 0 and this was because, on a typical US keyboard, the key to the left of 1 is not 0 but the ~ key. The console key. Which allows you to walk through walls, fly, teleport, kill everyone in sight with a thought, turn everyone's brain off, conjure anyone or anything you like, remove something from existence entirely, alter your skills or stats, lock and unlock doors, or simply become indestructible with unlimited supplies of magicka (and stamina). In other words, to twist "the dream" as you see fit if you can just figure out the correct syntax.

[Flickerdart]

Also, you can mod your game to be Shinnok.

[ArlEammon]

The thing about CHIM is that it allows you to do anything, technically speaking, but it's the kind of thing that by it's very nature rarely makes you do anything.

Think of it this way. Nothing is stopping the Dovahkiin from just summoning himself a magical weapon of great and terrible power, walking right up to the nearest enemy, and bashing them in with one hit from his new god hammer. Heck, nothing stops the Dovahkiin from just waving his hands and killing every bandit before him as soon as weapons are drawn. You can even do it yourself in the game. But that just takes the thrill out of living. There isn't even any point to doing it that way, simply because with CHIM those bandits were never a challenge to begin with and the end result is the same even if he were to pull out a steel sword he found and enchanted himself "normally"(by learning what normally takes decades in a few days or weeks).

CHIM essentially rigs the world so that you could become an omnipotent god ruling over it, and by some interpretations most of it's known users technically are in some way or another, due to weird cosmological stuff meaning the Dragonborn is simultaneously some random adventurer and an incarnation of space jesus and possibly an incarnation of the planet mars. Or some other such ridiculous thing. Elder Scrolls cosmology is weird. But even though you could be an omnipotent god, you're inclined not to be so, because obviously if you can already warp the world around you in such a drastic way at such a moments notice, you effectivley for all intents and purposes own it and it becomes like that camaro on your front lawn cinderblocks that you always mean to touch up and give a sweet paint job.

This vs has no CHIM.

[Eldan]

I don't remember Pre-Ascension Sheogorath or Dovahkiin being omnipotent. There are limits to CHIM. It's just so strong that people have difficulty understanding it.

Well, the biggest example of what was probably CHIM or CHIM-like was Tiber Septim changing Cyrodiil from a tropical jungle full of aztec-ish elven ruins into generic temperate European climate. So, it is very, very strong.

[Jayngfet]

Well, the biggest example of what was probably CHIM or CHIM-like was Tiber Septim changing Cyrodiil from a tropical jungle full of aztec-ish elven ruins into generic temperate European climate. So, it is very, very strong.

I think the biggest thing to realize about CHIM is that Tiber Septim is considered to be a divine, along with the other eight. The other eight are theoretically limitless entities of extreme power who's "real form" can only be perceived as entire planets by mortal eyes.

So for all intents and purposes, to have CHIM is to have the infinite power of god.

[ArlEammon]

I think the biggest thing to realize about CHIM is that Tiber Septim is considered to be a divine, along with the other eight. The other eight are theoretically limitless entities of extreme power who's "real form" can only be perceived as entire planets by mortal eyes.

So for all intents and purposes, to have CHIM is to have the infinite power of god.

So all Shinnok has to do is hire Dovahkiin with a bounty on the Elder gods for 100 gold each?

[Flickerdart]

So all Shinnok has to do is hire Dovahkiin with a bounty on the Elder gods for 100 gold each?

Killing gods is a main quest, and no Elder Scrolls protagonist ever does the main quest.

[Jayngfet]

So all Shinnok has to do is hire Dovahkiin with a bounty on the Elder gods for 100 gold each?

Just so long as he gets to keep the loot.

[Eldan]

I think the biggest thing to realize about CHIM is that Tiber Septim is considered to be a divine, along with the other eight. The other eight are theoretically limitless entities of extreme power who's "real form" can only be perceived as entire planets by mortal eyes.

So for all intents and purposes, to have CHIM is to have the infinite power of god.

He did that before his proper ascencion, though.

[Hyena]

CHIM is a completely ridiculous idea that only an over-analyzing fanbase could ever come up with. Does any of you, guys, really look upon the mountains below from the High Hrothgar and think "Oh, yeah, this extremely large fantasy world? It's all about a protagonist, who has the power of the console and save scumming"?

[Cen]

CHIM is a completely ridiculous idea that only an over-analyzing fanbase could ever come up with. Does any of you, guys, really look upon the mountains below from the High Hrothgar and think "Oh, yeah, this extremely large fantasy world? It's all about a protagonist, who has the power of the console and save scumming"?

But CHIM is totally canon.
If I remember correctly Vivek used CHIM to temporarily submerge all of Vvardenfell under water and give every citizen underwater breathing to drown invading army.

[Flickerdart]

CHIM is a completely ridiculous idea that only an over-analyzing fanbase could ever come up with. Does any of you, guys, really look upon the mountains below from the High Hrothgar and think "Oh, yeah, this extremely large fantasy world? It's all about a protagonist, who has the power of the console and save scumming"?
There are books and NPCs in Morrowind that refer to CHIM directly.

[Eldan]

CHIM is a completely ridiculous idea that only an over-analyzing fanbase could ever come up with. Does any of you, guys, really look upon the mountains below from the High Hrothgar and think "Oh, yeah, this extremely large fantasy world? It's all about a protagonist, who has the power of the console and save scumming"?

That kind of lore is what makes Elder Scrolls interesting. Without the weird stuff about Ehlnofey and Dragon Breaks and Towers and Stones and Godheads and powers being aspects of each other, it would be a frightfully generic world.

[Legato Endless]

He did that before his proper ascencion, though.

Also, excepting Talos, none of the gods possess CHIM. Only mortals may apply.


That kind of lore is what makes Elder Scrolls interesting. Without the weird stuff about Ehlnofey and Dragon Breaks and Towers and Stones and Godheads and powers being aspects of each other, it would be a frightfully generic world.

Pretty much. If nothing else, the Elder Scrolls has one of the more unique and well written cosmologies in Fantasy and gaming. Significantly better than most of the official DnD settings, frankly.

[ArlEammon]

But CHIM is totally canon.
If I remember correctly Vivek used CHIM to temporarily submerge all of Vvardenfell under water and give every citizen underwater breathing to drown invading army.


Also, excepting Talos, none of the gods possess CHIM. Only mortals may apply.



Pretty much. If nothing else, the Elder Scrolls has one of the more unique and well written cosmologies in Fantasy and gaming. Significantly better than most of the official DnD settings, frankly.

Akatosh is an Akatoshronym.

Also Known As The something something something. . . I forget the exact abbreviation.

[Lamech]

It is a vaguely defined concept that shows up in books within the game world. For example stuff by Vivec. Vivec does not actually appear to have CHIM when fought. In fact, all signs point to Vivec being a lying jerk and conman with a fragment of stolen divinity. His writings are not what one should call reliable.

And even if it was a thing it would mean that the Dova is actually just part of a video game on a computer and would promptly get killed when the computer is smashed to bits. :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

And even if it was a thing it would mean that the Dova is actually just part of a video game on a computer and would promptly get killed when the computer is smashed to bits. :smallwink:
That would require his opponent to be outside of the world in which they are fighting...which would make the entire VS pointless.

[ArlEammon]

That would require his opponent to be outside of the world in which they are fighting...which would make the entire VS pointless.

Just as pointless as CHIM as described as making Dovahkiin near omnipotent as much as omnipotence can only be "ni".

[Jayngfet]

It is a vaguely defined concept that shows up in books within the game world. For example stuff by Vivec. Vivec does not actually appear to have CHIM when fought. In fact, all signs point to Vivec being a lying jerk and conman with a fragment of stolen divinity. His writings are not what one should call reliable.


Keep in mind that whoever you make fight Vivic thereby also has CHIM. It's a kind of ridiculous zero sum game at that point where programming such a "proper" fight is impossible since both fighters can access console commands.

[ArlEammon]

Keep in mind that whoever you make fight Vivic thereby also has CHIM. It's a kind of ridiculous zero sum game at that point where programming such a "proper" fight is impossible since both fighters can access console commands.

Magic in some Fantasy settings is described as "hacking into the universe", without referring to video games, to an extent, the ancient peoples of real life believed in this, only the power source, as it were, could be sacrificial offerings to deities, one's own blood, live stock, cattle, and sometimes even sexuality of a kind I can't describe without violating terms of service.

CHIM, is just one of the most potent forms of real life magic trying to be described in ultra modern nerd video game context.

In other words, they're trying to hard to come up with something new when something in ancient traditions has already been created.

[Jayngfet]

Magic in some Fantasy settings is described as "hacking into the universe", without referring to video games, to an extent, the ancient peoples of real life believed in this, only the power source, as it were, could be sacrificial offerings to deities, one's own blood, live stock, cattle, and sometimes even sexuality of a kind I can't describe without violating terms of service.

CHIM, is just one of the most potent forms of real life magic trying to be described in ultra modern nerd video game context.

In other words, they're trying to hard to come up with something new when something in ancient traditions has already been created.

Magic is explicitly a different thing altogether. CHIM doesn't use Magica and isn't affected by potions.

Even then, that's ...not how traditional magic works, like at all. Traditional magic is pretty much always contract based or shamanistic. You sacrifice to a specific god, not a vague "physics". Or else you call upon the spirits of ancestors or animals. You generally attempt to establish a connection with some kind of hypothetical being. Not just "hack into physics".

[Flickerdart]

You sacrifice to a specific god, not a vague "physics".
http://i.imgur.com/fa0Wmp2.gif

[Eldan]

God, I love that scene. We need more pentagrams in science.

[ArlEammon]

Magic is explicitly a different thing altogether. CHIM doesn't use Magica and isn't affected by potions.

Even then, that's ...not how traditional magic works, like at all. Traditional magic is pretty much always contract based or shamanistic. You sacrifice to a specific god, not a vague "physics". Or else you call upon the spirits of ancestors or animals. You generally attempt to establish a connection with some kind of hypothetical being. Not just "hack into physics".

You must not have done much studying of Middle Eastern sorcery and things like that. The reason why spirits and such are important in witch craft is because the deities have much greater knowledge than mortals. In Greek Daimon (demons) were considered a good thing, because they were a source of knowledge. Also, there's more than one "school" of thought or witchcraft, much as there have been Kung Fu and Shotokahn (spelling) for martial arts.

But the magic of some deities have always been based on them having great knowledge, so much so that they can make the universal force do what they want. In turn they would grant some power and knowledge to Human beings.

[Jayngfet]

You must not have done much studying of Middle Eastern sorcery and things like that. The reason why spirits and such are important in witch craft is because the deities have much greater knowledge than mortals. In Greek Daimon (demons) were considered a good thing, because they were a source of knowledge. Also, there's more than one "school" of thought or witchcraft, much as there have been Kung Fu and Shotokahn (spelling) for martial arts.

But the magic of some deities have always been based on them having great knowledge, so much so that they can make the universal force do what they want. In turn they would grant some power and knowledge to Human beings.

...which still has nothing to do with CHIM or how it works. CHIM isn't magic. It's explicitly not any form of magic within the setting and it's not really analogous to any common form on record outside of maybe other games.

[ArlEammon]

...which still has nothing to do with CHIM or how it works. CHIM isn't magic. It's explicitly not any form of magic within the setting and it's not really analogous to any common form on record outside of maybe other games.

Magic? What's magic? Isn't that, that thing where people can do the impossible? Miracles or Magic, it's one of the two, and with my explanation, it's "Clerical" to use D&D terms. Vivic's (Vivec's?) explanation of CHIM sounds like Buddhism.

"Use the Zen Luke."