Paladin of Asmodeus: Code of Conduct and Associates

[Xuldarinar]

Given the existence of paladins of asmodeus, I wanted to see about developing with the community a code of conduct suitable to such. I envision a long, elaborate, legalese code of conduct that does ultimately amount to: Worship asmodeus, be a champion of contracts and law and good, follow all the rules laid down by the above. Something that would allow for dealing with devils, but not necessitate evil thought or action which would conflict with being a champion of good.


So, do we have support in that effort? Anyone want to take a crack at it?

[Beowulf DW]

Since when were there ever paladins of Asmodeus? I remember an error and subsequent errata in some Pathfinder material, but there officially has never nor will there ever be a paladin that worships Asmodeus in just about any setting that I've ever heard of.

[DrMotives]

How are you arriving at "given the existence of paladins of Asmodeus"? LG paladins of honor aren't within 1 step of LE Asmodeus, although you could certainly have Asmodeus paladins of tyranny. Is this supposed to be a bizarre hypothetical, or are you arguing that the rules say it's possible? If so, you need more explanation.

[grarrrg]

How are you arriving at "given the existence of paladins of Asmodeus"? LG paladins of honor aren't within 1 step of LE Asmodeus, although you could certainly have Asmodeus paladins of tyranny. Is this supposed to be a bizarre hypothetical, or are you arguing that the rules say it's possible? If so, you need more explanation.

Pathfinder thread.
There was a blurb in a splat somewhere about Paladin's (un)knowingly serving Asmodeus. They were based much more on the "L" part of the code than the "G".

[DrMotives]

Ah, that clears things up. Although the "unknowing" takes away any possibilities of a code that's friendly to devils. You still can't have a traditional paladin tolerating them, even if said paladin is more L(G) than LG.

[Ssalarn]

Ah, that clears things up. Although the "unknowing" takes away any possibilities of a code that's friendly to devils. You still can't have a traditional paladin tolerating them, even if said paladin is more L(G) than LG.

Yeah, Paladins of Asmodeus, as described in the Mother of Flies supplement, basically have been fed a carefully tailored version of Asmodeus where he's the Lord of Law (instead of Lies). They're Asmodeus' carefully prepared PR crew, and their actions are still carefully directed to aid his goals. When they're no longer useful in that regard, he'll try and tempt them into falling so he can use them for more obviously sinister purposes, or have them murdered if they can't be knowingly turned to his cause so there's no risk of them uncovering his true nature and turning against him.

[Kudaku]

Didn't JJ express some rather severe distaste when he was asked about the paladins of Asmodeus?

[Ssalarn]

Didn't JJ backpedal furiously when he was asked about the paladins of Asmodeus?

First he defended it for a couple years, then he said "actually that's wrong" and put an alternate explanation of paladins who aren't really paladins in Inner Sea Gods.

So, whichever you want to go with. In JJ'so version they don't exist, but Mother of Flies offers some cool reasons for why they exist if you want them in your world.

[Kudaku]

Really? I did a quick google search on his posts and they all seem to basically be "if I'd caught it in time, that wouldn't have been a thing".

[Ssalarn]

Really? I did a quick google search on his posts and they all seem to basically be "if I'd caught it in time, that would have been a thing".
Yeah, really. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ki6b?Paladins-of-Asmodeus#29)

That was back in 2010. JJ's never been fully on board with it, but it was there for everyone and he defended why it was there. He's come down more firmly on it not being part of "his" Golarion, but it was definitely talked about at great length in an official Paizo product, however they want to present it now.

Personally, there's no rule binding a Paladin to be the same alignment as his patron deity, and according to the magic section of the CRB, it's not even deities who give paladins their power. Given that, it almost doesn't matter who a paladin's been tricked into following, as long as he isn't knowingly violating his alignment. And as JJ himself said " If anyone can trick a paladin into worshiping him without the paladin realizing it... it's Asmodeus."

[grarrrg]

First he defended it for a couple years, then he said "actually that's wrong"

Hmmm...sounds similar to Juju Oracles and "Oh noes! NOT-Evil Undead!"

[Spore]

Hmmm...sounds similar to Juju Oracles and "Oh noes! NOT-Evil Undead!"

Which is weird because that single piece of class information makes my group think non-evil undead are more common than they are. As for the topic (because a dev can decide only so much, you could easily houserule in LN Asmodeus, lord of laws):

1) Never break a law or contract. Ever. If this means to hurt good, you should go for it and try to amend the evil you've done otherwise.

2) Balance is important. You need to contest the evil done by other false gods and demons. Strike them down without a moment's hesitation.

3) If someone tells you Asmodeus is evil, contest their opinion. Also if they're evil, you're probably fine to smite them. Otherwise contact our legal department.

4) The Hell Knights are an evil organization but they're bound to rules. Let your clergy deal with them. They're not THAT dangerous. Chill out. Kill some daemons and demons in the meanwhile.

In sum they should be used to improve the public opinion of Asmodeus, efficiently kill evil outsiders, dragons and undead (because undead are stupid things trapping valuable souls in rotting bodies). Maybe have a very minor LN god or demigod grant those guys the actual spells because Asmodeus can't. He's been tricked by Asmodeus and lifes in the illusion that the lord of laws is stern but fair. When in reality he's the puppet master.

[Ssalarn]

The other option for paladins to worship Asmodeus more knowingly is Godclaw (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Godclaw) hellknights, the other printed example from Paizo of paladins that worship Asmodeus.
Godclaw hellknights worship the 5 major lawful deities of Golarion, which includes Asmodeus, Torag, Abadar, Iomedae, and Irori. Regan Vashan (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Regan_Vashan) from the Paizo module "What Lies in Dust" is a Chelaxian paladin who worships all 5 deities in their roles as the lawbringers of Golarion. Based on the information available in the module, it seems like Godclaw paladins are aware of Asmodeus' evil side, but respect his role as a being of law and trust the other Godclaw deities to temper his influence.

[Red Fel]

The fact is, LE (and particularly Az) works as a Lord of Law, for one simple reason that's been referred to above.

Evil doesn't play nice with Evil.

Az doesn't like competition. And at the end of the day, he is a fiend of his word. He's the devil you can trust to be untrustworthy. If Good can deal openly with any Evil being, it's Az. And that's the key.

Remember that Paladins still have that unfortunate "associates" provision in the Code of Conduct, but notice this key provision: "Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil."

Az may be a great Evil - if not the greatest, amirite? - but he's rarely the most pressing Evil. Az plays the long game. Most of his schemes won't play out within the PCs' lifetimes. And, this is important, Az doesn't like competition. If some rube necromancer or warlord comes along and mucks up the place, it can throw his plans off by decades. Can't have that.

Employing Paladins makes perfect sense. You don't even need to try to corrupt them - it's enough that they're actively working with/for Evil. That's corrosive enough, right there. What you're doing, the end goal, is more important - you're using powerful LG zealots to clear the road. You're cleaning the table off before the main course gets served. It may be a few years before you even put the soup on, but you need the kitchen clean and the places set, and sometimes that requires minions who can walk around openly. As a rule, you can't use imps and cultists for that. But Paladins? They can go pretty much anywhere. If they die, you've lost nothing, but if they succeed, your way is clear.

And Paladins know this. Heck, anyone with an adequate number of ranks in Knowledge (Religion) knows this. Az doesn't need to make any secrets about it; it's a truth that only gives him more power when it's known. A Paladin serving Asmodeus' aims can do so with a relatively clear conscience. Az wouldn't be ordering him to do something blatantly Evil; a fallen Paladin is a cute toy, but serves no long-term goal. Az would instead be ordering him to clear out Evil which might jeopardize Az' long-term plans. And since a Paladin fights Evil anyway, this just means getting a better sense of where to point his sword.

Naturally, the Paladin would need to seek Atonement periodically. Working for a guy like Az, even if it means taking out the trash, can leave you feeling like you just took a swim in chicken soup. But unless your DM is particularly severe when it comes to enforcing alignment penalties, I think it should work.

[Geddy2112]

It would certainly be a case of "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't." Followers of Asmodeus would get along with most other LG gods when there is a clear threat to the order or structure of society. It might not be pleasant, but a Paladin of Asmodeus and a paladin of Iomideae are going to stand together in battle when a chaotic evil rabble is threatening to overtake their city. They serve different ends, but both can reasonably trust the other to not backstab them during the battle.