Why Precocious Apprentice early entry doesn't work by RAW

[Story]

So I looked at the description of Precocious Apprentice again recently, and I'm now almost certain that it doesn't work by RAW.

A typical PRC says something like "Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells"

What does Precocious Apprentice say?


When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the
benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot,

Since ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells implies ability to cast 2nd level spells, this means that if early entry worked, PA would be self-disqualifying. I suppose you could still argue that this is in fact how it works by RAW, but that would require an extremely tortured interpretation of the text.

[ryu]

Not at all. There's also the interpretation that second level spells is being used to talk about second level non-arcane spells thus meaning that text only applies if you start learning divine magic. Never underestimate the lengths that I can and will go to specifically for the purpose of turning RAW into a pretzel.

[Extra Anchovies]

By having a second-level spell slot, you are tautologically able to cast second-level spells (and if you think that only one slot is not enough, well, you're wrong, and you can manage multiple per day anyways via through multiple methods, e.g. Versatile Spellcaster or a Ring of Wizardry). The wording is sloppy but the effect is clear: that you gain the ability to cast one or more second-level spells.

[Cruiser1]

A typical PRC says something like "Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells"
What does Precocious Apprentice say?
"When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot"
Since ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells implies ability to cast 2nd level spells, this means that if early entry worked, PA would be self-disqualifying.
To avoid the self-disqualifying paradox, it would be clearer if the wording of Precocious Apprentice was "when you become able to cast 2nd-level spells naturally" (i.e. naturally through standard class leveling, outside of the feat).

However, assuming the above is the case, then that suggests that any phrase like "able to cast 2nd-level spells" does refer to standard spellcasting from class levels, and not alternative methods that can raise a spell level such as feats. If that's the case, then Precocious Apprentice and most other early entry methods for spell level don't work, because they're not natural/standard methods of obtaining it.

[Story]

Does this mean that the first half of the PA description never takes effect?

[holywhippet]

I always thought it doesn't work because the PRC says you have to be able to cast second level spells, note that this is plural. PA only gives you a single spell "slot" and a single spell you can cast with it.

Interestingly, but possibly not usefully, you can get into some arcane PRCs without having any or enough arcane spell casting levels by taking a cleric with the spell domain. The anyspell domain spells let you prepare and cast arcane spells.

[Extra Anchovies]

I always thought it doesn't work because the PRC says you have to be able to cast second level spells, note that this is plural. PA only gives you a single spell "slot" and a single spell you can cast with it.

A 5th-level generalist wizard with 13 Intelligence and only one third-level spell in their spellbook has only a single third-level spell slot and a single third-level spell known. If you need multiple spell slots and/or spells known, this wizard cannot cast third level spells.

[ben-zayb]

I always thought it doesn't work because the PRC says you have to be able to cast second level spells, note that this is plural. PA only gives you a single spell "slot" and a single spell you can cast with it.

Interestingly, but possibly not usefully, you can get into some arcane PRCs without having any or enough arcane spell casting levels by taking a cleric with the spell domain. The anyspell domain spells let you prepare and cast arcane spells.

But the requirement isn't "Able to cast 2nd level spells in a span of one day", so this single slot argument fails.

[Troacctid]

Not at all. There's also the interpretation that second level spells is being used to talk about second level non-arcane spells thus meaning that text only applies if you start learning divine magic. Never underestimate the lengths that I can and will go to specifically for the purpose of turning RAW into a pretzel.

That's not a reasonable interpretation of the text, unless you are arguing that a 2nd level arcane spell is not a 2nd level spell, and only divine spells can be 2nd level spells, in which case, citation please.

[Evan Epis]

Not at all. There's also the interpretation that second level spells is being used to talk about second level non-arcane spells thus meaning that text only applies if you start learning divine magic. Never underestimate the lengths that I can and will go to specifically for the purpose of turning RAW into a pretzel.

So by your theory, a (generalist)wizard could also pick ANY 2nd level spell from ANY list, because he has access to every school of magic, right?

I'm refering to this btw:

"Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to".

[Extra Anchovies]

So by your theory, a (generalist)wizard could also pick ANY 2nd level spell from ANY list, because he has access to every school of magic, right?

I'm refering to this btw:

"Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to".

Yup. They are actually able to do that by RAW. Fun way to be a necromancer without waiting until level 7 is using PA to nab Animate Dead from the Death Master (Dragon Compendium) list, which has it as a second-level spell. Nowhere does it actually specify that it has to even be an arcane spell. If you have access to Conjuration, you could pick up Cure Moderate Wounds if you're playing the feat by RAW. I'd restrict it to arcane-only were I running a game, though.

[Troacctid]

Yup. They are actually able to do that by RAW. Fun way to be a necromancer without waiting until level 7 is using PA to nab Animate Dead from the Death Master (Dragon Compendium) list, which has it as a second-level spell. Nowhere does it actually specify that it has to even be an arcane spell. If you have access to Conjuration, you could pick up Cure Moderate Wounds if you're playing the feat by RAW. I'd restrict it to arcane-only were I running a game, though.

Of course, you'd lose the spell as soon as you hit level 3 and gained access to 2nd level spells, so, meh.

[Extra Anchovies]

Of course, you'd lose the spell as soon as you hit level 3 and gained access to 2nd level spells, so, meh.

Huh. You don't get the spell selected at first level added to your spells known automatically? Hadn't noticed that part of the feat. That's icky non-fun. "Oh I forgot how to cast scorching ray now that I'm a more powerful sorcerer".

Doesn't actually hurt wizards, though. They'd still have the spell in their spellbook.

[Psyren]

So I looked at the description of Precocious Apprentice again recently, and I'm now almost certain that it doesn't work by RAW.

A typical PRC says something like "Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells"

What does Precocious Apprentice say?



Since ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells implies ability to cast 2nd level spells, this means that if early entry worked, PA would be self-disqualifying. I suppose you could still argue that this is in fact how it works by RAW, but that would require an extremely tortured interpretation of the text.

Wouldn't that reading cause an endless loop? You gain the ability to cast 2nd-level spells, thus losing the benefit of Precocious Apprentice, which means you can no longer cast 2nd-level spells, but you still have the feat so you gain the benefit, which gives you the ability to cast 2nd-level spells, which causes you to lose the...


But the requirement isn't "Able to cast 2nd level spells in a span of one day", so this single slot argument fails.

Yep, that. Just to nip that particular argument in the bud before it gets off the ground.

[Extra Anchovies]

Wouldn't that reading cause an endless loop? You gain the ability to cast 2nd-level spells, thus losing the benefit of Precocious Apprentice, which means you can no longer cast 2nd-level spells, but you still have the feat so you gain the benefit, which gives you the ability to cast 2nd-level spells, which causes you to lose the...

Huh. I think this is the first single-object rules loop I've ever run into. Neat.

You guys, isn't this game fun? It's so intuitive!

[Troacctid]

It doesn't create a loop. Losing the benefit is a singular event that occurs when you gain access to 2nd level spells. If you then later lose the ability to cast 2nd level spells, well, too bad for you, but you don't get the benefit back; there's no mechanism in the feat to allow that.

Anyway, the point is, any reading that would cause Precocious Apprentice to qualify you for Mystic Theurge or whatever also causes the feat to implode and erase its own benefit, so there's no interpretation where that's a legal thing to do. Either you read it one way and it doesn't work, or you read it a different way, and it doesn't work, but for a different reason.

[Psyren]

Huh. I think this is the first single-object rules loop I've ever run into. Neat.

You guys, isn't this game fun? It's so intuitive!

Dragon Disciple and Ur-Priest are single loops as well, but I think this is the first one I've seen at level one.


It doesn't create a loop. Losing the benefit is a singular event that occurs when you gain access to 2nd level spells.

But you still have the feat, which means once you can no longer cast 2nd-level spells, the line that triggers when you are "able to cast 2nd-level spells" no longer overrides the normal benefits. Feats apply until you either lose them or lose the prerequisites, neither of which is the case here.

[Taelas]

It specifically says you lose it, though. It isn't suppressed.

[Extra Anchovies]

It specifically says you lose it, though. It isn't suppressed.

Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean you erase the feat from your character sheet. It stays there. If you have Racial Weapon Familiarity (Elf stuff) and get reincarnated as a Gnome, you don't lose the feats; you just lose the benefit until you re-qualify. In the case of PA, if you ever un-qualify for the loss of the ability (such as by being 3rd level and having a level drained), you regain the initial benefits of PA. Losing an ability isn't always permanent.

[Troacctid]

Specific trumps general. Whatever general rule says you have the benefits of all your feats, it's overridden by the specific text of this feat that says you can lose its benefits. That's, like, one of the whole foundations of the system, right there. Otherwise we'd have total chaos. Unresolvable loops would be everywhere. "This spell says your speed is reduced to 0 feet, but your race says you have a speed of 30 feet, zomg, what do?" :smalltongue:

[Grim Reader]

This has been noted as the reason why you can't use PA to qualify for Mystic Theurge. By the feat wording, at the point when you gain a second level divine spell, it turns into an extra divine spell slot.

There was a Wizards Q&A where they addressed the PA issue. Wizards stated that PA does not actually give you the ability to cast second level spells, it gives you an ability that has a chance of resulting in a second level spell being cast, so it doesn't qualify for PrCs. A dubious ruling in my opinion. But they did rule heighten + versatile as legal in the same Q&A so I like the intent, letting Sorcerers qualify for PrCs one level earlier than Wizards.

[Pippin]

There was a Wizards Q&A where they addressed the PA issue. Wizards stated that PA does not actually give you the ability to cast second level spells, it gives you an ability that has a chance of resulting in a second level spell being cast, so it doesn't qualify for PrCs. A dubious ruling in my opinion. But they did rule heighten + versatile as legal in the same Q&A so I like the intent, letting Sorcerers qualify for PrCs one level earlier than Wizards.
Where?

Sometimes I can't quite guess if people are solely being objective, or if their impartiality is actually based on the tacit desire to nerf even more the wizard class.

So what's the conclusion of this thread anyway?

[Grim Reader]

Where?

Sometimes I can't quite guess if people are solely being objective, or if their impartiality is actually based on the tacit desire to nerf even more the wizard class.


It was called something like the "Heavily debated issues" thread on the Wizards forum back in 2008, I think. Towards the end of Wizards 3.5s lifespan, a bunch of posters got together on the boards, and made a list of issues that were heavily debates, setting out the "Pro" and "Con" arguments for each side. Then Wizards D&D people had a look and answered the questions. A lot of issues were addressed there. Of the top of my memory, Thicket of Blades, Arcane Thesis, Rainbow Servant, PA and others.

I've never been able to find the thread again though, possibly due to forgetting the exact title when I was out of D&D for a few years. Which is a pity, there was some good stuff there (and some not so good stuff).

[Amphetryon]

It was called something like the "Heavily debated issues" thread on the Wizards forum back in 2008, I think. Towards the end of Wizards 3.5s lifespan, a bunch of posters got together on the boards, and made a list of issues that were heavily debates, setting out the "Pro" and "Con" arguments for each side. Then Wizards D&D people had a look and answered the questions. A lot of issues were addressed there. Of the top of my memory, Thicket of Blades, Arcane Thesis, Rainbow Servant, PA and others.

I've never been able to find the thread again though, possibly due to forgetting the exact title when I was out of D&D for a few years. Which is a pity, there was some good stuff there (and some not so good stuff).

the poster 'Mommy Was An Orc' used to use the Arcane Thesis debate as part of his sig at WotC, if it helps in finding the thread.

[atemu1234]

the poster 'Mommy Was An Orc' used to use the Arcane Thesis debate as part of his sig at WotC, if it helps in finding the thread.

Still like finding needles in a haystack.

[Amphetryon]

Still like finding needles in a haystack.

The hope was that finding an individual poster - or any posts of his - was easier than finding a single particular thread. Clearly, by your dismissive response, this was an unreasonable expectation on my part, for which I apologize.

[atemu1234]

The hope was that finding an individual poster - or any posts of his - was easier than finding a single particular thread. Clearly, by your dismissive response, this was an unreasonable expectation on my part, for which I apologize.

No, it can probably be found. Don't apologize.

[nedz]

Is this (http://community.wizards.com/comment/20646086) the thread you mean ?

Ed: there is also this (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13909221) one ?

[Pippin]

Is this (http://community.wizards.com/comment/20646086) the thread you mean ?

Ed: there is also this (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13909221) one ?
So, there seems to have been a FAQ in which all interesting questions had been asked, but it is no longer accessible on the Internet (http://dnd.wizards.com/go/er/20030221a), and the links you point to only quote some of the questions (which is already great, thank you).

Is there really no way to find the entire FAQ though?

[Pyromancer999]

So, there seems to have been a FAQ in which all interesting questions had been asked, but it is no longer accessible on the Internet (http://dnd.wizards.com/go/er/20030221a), and the links you point to only quote some of the questions (which is already great, thank you).

Is there really no way to find the entire FAQ though?

You can't access 3.5 stuff from the regular WoTC website. You have to go through the archived version of the site, which should still have almost everything.

[prufock]

Since ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells implies ability to cast 2nd level spells, this means that if early entry worked, PA would be self-disqualifying. I suppose you could still argue that this is in fact how it works by RAW, but that would require an extremely tortured interpretation of the text.
The clarifying language comes earlier in the feat, which people overlook. "Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell." While it isn't made explicit, it's pretty clear that the intent is for this to apply to the section you quoted as well, otherwise you have a self-disqualifying feat.

[Pippin]

Well I've no idea where to find that FAQ, and that would probably take a lot of time to search it.

So, according to that FAQ, the feat doesn't grant you the "ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells", right? What if I had arcane mastery too?

[nedz]

You can't access 3.5 stuff from the regular WoTC website. You have to go through the archived version of the site, which should still have almost everything.

Yes - in principle you replace the first qualifier of the URL with Archive but sometimes you need to tweak other bits as well. Also lots of the forum stuff was recycled previously but might be available via wayback. Furthermore I have already tried the standard tricks on this one - without result; someone else may have better luck however.

[Segev]

The problems only arise if you do not read the entire feat and take all of it in context of being part of the same feat. It very clearly spells out that you are stretching your abilities to manage this one second level spell, both overtly and by implication of the DC 8 spellcraft check. In that context, the line about being high enough level to cast 2nd level spells, this feat's benefit being replaced by an "extra" 2nd level spell slot is clearly referring to 2nd level spells of its sort (probably even of the class that enabled your taking of the feat), and referring to the aforementioned acknowledgement that you're currently too low-level and thus straining your ability.

This feat, in other words, taken in full context, permits you to cast a second level spell even though you are not high enough level to do so. Its reference to when you BECOME high enough level to do so is equally clearly an acknowledgement of this fact. It does not self-negate, taken in context. Though you can cast this one 2nd level spell, you are not yet high enough level to do so. This feat, as an exception-based rule, lets you do so in spite of this.

Given that the PrCs in question never refer to being "high enough level to cast" 2nd level spells, but merely require that you be able to, Precocious Apprentice still allows early entry. It allows you to cast a 2nd level arcane spell in spite of being too low level to do so. The PrC only checks the first, not the latter. The feat checks the latter for its self-negation.



Besides, even with the "auto-self-negating" interpretation that its own text renders you losing the first benefit, all it does is say, "Now you can cast a 2nd level spell, so you have a bonus spell slot that you can fill with any 2nd level spell appropriate to the relevant class." In other words, the interpretation that is being used to try to "un-break" early entry shenanigans actually makes them worse by making you able to cast ANY 2nd level spell you can get into your grubby little spellbook, because now you can cast a 2nd level spell, so you lose the restrictive benefit and instead gain a bonus 2nd level spell slot.

[goto124]

Given that the PrCs in question never refer to being "high enough level to cast" 2nd level spells, but merely require that you be able to, Precocious Apprentice still allows early entry.

I wonder if one could argue that PrCs require you to cast more than one spell, since the requirement says spells...

And what PrCs are we talking about?

[Segev]

I wonder if one could argue that PrCs require you to cast more than one spell, since the requirement says spells...

Asked and answered: the PrC never specifies in what time period you must be able to cast the spells, so the ability ot cast it again tomorrow would qualify. And if it's the ability to cast more than one KIND of spell (e.g. Web and Mirror Image), then sorcerers actually can't enter them until a level or two later still. As example after example illustrates that this was not the intent, it is likely not an accurate reading. (RAI may not be RAW, but when RAW can be read in multiple valid ways, and strongly implied RAI contradicts one but not another, that one is probably not the right reading.)

[Deadline]

I wonder if one could argue that PrCs require you to cast more than one spell, since the requirement says spells...

This was already raised and addressed on the first page.


And what PrCs are we talking about?

Any prestige class that requires the ability to cast 2nd level spells? The most common place this sort of thing is used as "early entry" is Mystic Theurge, I think.

[Taelas]

Rainbow Servant with a list-caster is also a frequent victim. (The Rainbow Warsnake and its cousin, the Dread Rainbow.) Though it requires additional fidding to get 3rd level spells.

[Troacctid]

If you don't need to be high enough level to cast a 2nd level spell out of an actual spell slot, why do you need Precocious Apprentice at all? You can cast spells out of wands. Heck, a single-classed Rogue with enough points in UMD should be able to qualify for Mystic Theurge if she really wanted.


Besides, even with the "auto-self-negating" interpretation that its own text renders you losing the first benefit, all it does is say, "Now you can cast a 2nd level spell, so you have a bonus spell slot that you can fill with any 2nd level spell appropriate to the relevant class." In other words, the interpretation that is being used to try to "un-break" early entry shenanigans actually makes them worse by making you able to cast ANY 2nd level spell you can get into your grubby little spellbook, because now you can cast a 2nd level spell, so you lose the restrictive benefit and instead gain a bonus 2nd level spell slot.

No, under that reading, it would let you cast a 2nd level spell "as you normally could", which you can't do because you don't have any 2nd level spells known.

[Pippin]

If you don't need to be high enough level to cast a 2nd level spell out of an actual spell slot, why do you need Precocious Apprentice at all? You can cast spells out of wands.
Finding/Buying a wand is really up to the DM, though. Going "that's written right there in the books" sounds more like a (successful) plan.

[Segev]

If you don't need to be high enough level to cast a 2nd level spell out of an actual spell slot, why do you need Precocious Apprentice at all? You can cast spells out of wands. Heck, a single-classed Rogue with enough points in UMD should be able to qualify for Mystic Theurge if she really wanted.I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make here. Can you relate this back to whether or not Precocious Apprentice permits early entry, please?




No, under that reading, it would let you cast a 2nd level spell "as you normally could", which you can't do because you don't have any 2nd level spells known.

On the contrary, Precocious Apprentice gives you a spell you know. At the least, it puts it in a spellbook. This reading might make it worthless to sorcerers (except for the fact it's still a bonus spell slot, and one they could metamagic into at that), but it wouldn't prevent a wizard from preparing and casting a 2nd level spell from their spellbook. Which they have from having taken the feat in the first place (as even if they lose the "above benefit," the spell remains in their book).

[Troacctid]

Finding/Buying a wand is really up to the DM, though. Going "that's written right there in the books" sounds more like a (successful) plan.

So a DM is going to be restrictive enough to make no store in the entire game world sell any wand of 2nd level or higher, even of a common spell like Cure Moderate Wounds, but they're also going to be permissive enough to let you use Precocious Apprentice for early entry? :smalltongue:


On the contrary, Precocious Apprentice gives you a spell you know. At the least, it puts it in a spellbook.

No it doesn't--check the text again. It doesn't add the chosen spell to your spellbook or spells known. (And if it did, you'd lose that benefit when the second half of the feat kicks in.) I think you're expected to take it as a known spell normally once you reach the appropriate level.

[Pippin]

So a DM is going to be restrictive enough to make no store in the entire game world sell any wand of 2nd level or higher, even of a common spell like Cure Moderate Wounds, but they're also going to be permissive enough to let you use Precocious Apprentice for early entry? :smalltongue:
Well at first level I doubt they would let me buy a 2nd-level spell wand, that's two levels early :(

[Segev]

No it doesn't--check the text again. It doesn't add the chosen spell to your spellbook or spells known. (And if it did, you'd lose that benefit when the second half of the feat kicks in.) I think you're expected to take it as a known spell normally once you reach the appropriate level.

I'm AFB, so have to take your word for it.

Though in that case, it doesn't seem to work at all. After all, if you don't know the spell, how do you cast it, even with the special spellcraft check?

[Troacctid]

I'm AFB, so have to take your word for it.

Though in that case, it doesn't seem to work at all. After all, if you don't know the spell, how do you cast it, even with the special spellcraft check?

Apparently your master has helped you with the basics, but you're still learning it.


Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.

It wouldn't be the only case of the rules letting you cast a spell that isn't one of your spells known. (See also: scrolls, wands, etc.)

[Segev]

Interesting. In that case, that interpretation gives you a free 2nd level spell slot the moment you take it, denies you the ability to use the spell it tells you to choose, negates the need to make the spellcraft check, and is essentially a bonus spell of 1st level, possibly with a +1 level metamagic applied.

[Troacctid]

Or, more reasonably, it doesn't count as being able to cast 2nd level spells.

[Segev]

Or, more reasonably, it doesn't count as being able to cast 2nd level spells.

You can cast a 2nd level spell. There's no question of this. Clearly, it counts.

[Flickerdart]

It may or may not be important to note that without the special casting rules granted by the feat, the slot it provides is subject to the mysterious and vague minimum caster level rules.

[Chronos]

You can cast a 2nd level spell. There's no question of this. Clearly, it counts.
Quite to the contrary, there clearly is a question of this. You might think you know the answer, but there's no doubt that the question exists, as evidenced by this very thread.

[Story]

Any prestige class that requires the ability to cast 2nd level spells? The most common place this sort of thing is used as "early entry" is Mystic Theurge, I think.

Also Anima Mage and Ultimate Magus. Though UM has added language about "preparing from a spellbook". I'm not sure whether that affects things.

[Extra Anchovies]

Also Anima Mage and Ultimate Magus. Though UM has added language about "preparing from a spellbook". I'm not sure whether that affects things.

UM builds almost always apply PA to sorcerer casting anyways, to let them enter the PrC earlier.