Throwing one enemy at another (house rule query on balance)

[AmbientRaven]

Hi folks,

In my game I have a new player whom is playing a Goliath grappler barbarian whom can naturally lift 1ton.
He was asking about rules to throw enemies he has grappeled, and, hastily sketched the following rules

EDIT: UPDATED
Throwing the target
You can only throw grappled targets
You must first pass an athletics check to throw the target. If they are a size smaller than you, you have advantage on the check.

To Hit
The attack role is equal to a ranged attack with an improvised weapon.
-If the creature weighs greater than 1/5 of your carry capacity, they cannot be thrown

Range: 30
Damage: 1D4+Str damage
Both the thrown and the target may dex save to take half damage (DC is 8+prof+throwers str)

Prone: If either creature failed its dex save, it is also prone


Thanks for any help!

[Shining Wrath]

First: the thrown person is an improvised weapon, you might reduce your dice by one step (D4, D6, D8).

Secondly, the size difference between thrower and throwee ought to play a part in the success of the Athletics check. It's easier to toss a halfling than a dwarf, as demonstrated in the Mines of Moria.

Third, maybe it's a standard to-hit versus AC for the target to take damage. If your Goliath hurls an orc into an iron golem, he should have to overcome the golem's armor to injure him. If the attack succeeds, the thrown person also takes damage. If the attack fails, the thrown person may take damage; they get the Dex save you describe to land without injury.

Fourth, consider throwing the grappled person somewhere else - into the lava, under the feet of the stampede, into the mouth of the Tarrasque. What's the AC to hit the Tarrasque's open mouth? What if the orc is wearing a backpack full of Alchemist's Fire when the Tarrasque swallows him?

[Giant2005]

If you exclude that last line I'd say it seems pretty reasonable. I'd also be tempted to get rid of the idea of throwing large creatures entirely. A lot of them he isn't even strong enough to lift (Allosaurus for example) so throwing them is obviously out of the question. If you want to throw something with any serious force and 10' or more, it needs to weigh significantly less than your maximum lifting capacity which means even things that weigh half a ton would be a bit sketchy. It is simply easier to say no to the entire collective group of large creatures than try to figure out their weight and plausibility on a case by case basis.

[jaydubs]

If you're trying to give him that for fun and excitement purposes, go ahead, though I'd tone it down as others have suggested. Improvised weapon against AC, smaller hit die, and give it a range of something like 10/20. But if you're looking to grant it just because he can lift a lot and so it seems to follow that he can throw creatures around, I'd rethink allowing it.

Consider how much you can lift above your head, whatever that maximum weight might be. Let's say it's arbitrarily 100 pounds. How far and how accurately do you think you can throw a 100 pound bag of sand? Now compare that to how far and how accurately you can throw a baseball. Even if you significantly reduce the weight of the bag, it's still a far worse projectile. How far and how accurately can you throw a 20 pound bag of sand, compared to a baseball?

[hymer]

Being allowed to throw people needs to be considered in conjunction with spells like Wall of Fire and Stinking Cloud. You can already Shove people into them, but throwing is just so much more flexible - and a whole lot farther than the 5' of Shove. I can't claim to fully grasp the implications.

[Shining Wrath]

Being allowed to throw people needs to be considered in conjunction with spells like Wall of Fire and Stinking Cloud. You can already Shove people into them, but throwing is just so much more flexible - and a whole lot farther than the 5' of Shove. I can't claim to fully grasp the implications.

OP did not discuss whether or not the thrown person and / or target wind up prone.

Prone in front of a melee fighter is a bad place to be.

[Slipperychicken]

I wouldn't give the target a save; just make it an improvised attack roll. Also, I don't think there should be extra damage from being struck by a larger creature; the normal damage die is sufficient.

I'm thinking you could make the range 10/20 for a creature the same size as the thrower and 20/60 for a smaller creature.

Also, I'd consider giving disadvantage if the thrown creature's weight brings the goliath over half/two-thirds his carry capacity.

[AmbientRaven]

Hi folks!

Thanks for the feedback, how does this look?


Throwing the target
You can only throw grappled targets
You must first pass an athletics check to throw the target. If they are a size smaller than you, you have advantage on the check.

To Hit
The attack role is equal to a ranged attack with an improvised weapon.
-If the creature weighs greater than 1/3 of your carry capacity, then you have disadvantage on the attack role.

Range: 10/30
Damage: Damage is based on size category of the thrown target.
The target and the thrown individual takes damage based upon the thrown creatures size
Small: 1D4+STR
Medium: 1D6+STR
The thrown target can roll a dex save to take half damage (DC is 8+throwers str)

Prone: The target and thrown creatures may both roll a dex save to resist being knocked prone. DC: 8+Str of the thrower


How does that seem?

I am adding these rules as they sound fun, and, adds more to the group dynamic. The Goliath Barbarian did ask about throwing rules as it is viable that he could throw medium targets easily

[Kane0]

What's the AC to hit the Tarrasque's open mouth? What if the orc is wearing a backpack full of Alchemist's Fire when the Tarrasque swallows him?

I love the picture you paint.

[Vogonjeltz]

-If the creature weighs greater than 1/3 of your carry capacity, then you have disadvantage on the attack role.

Range: 10/30

Point of order: Anything over 10 feet would seem to grant disadvantage, and anything over 1/3 carrying capacity grants disadvantage. Why wouldn't you always throw things that are over 1/3 carrying capacity AND need to go more than 10 feet? I mean, where's the downside when you already have disadvantage? And since it's a strength check, and advantage cancels out disadvantage, a raging barbarian could basically always throw something over 1/3 carrying capacity up to 30 feet with no advantage/disadvantage on the roll.

I suggest making it a hard limit: You can not throw anything more than carrying capacity.

Second, I either wouldn't allow it to deal damage at all, or deal damage to both the thrown person and the hit person. Why? Because in the case of a medium creature, it's 2d6+2xstr damage dealt total, more than using a greatsword.

I'd rule it like this: To throw a grappled creature their additional weight when combined with your gear must not exceed your carrying capacity, you must succeed on an opposed check (athletics vs athletics/acrobatics) to lift them and an athletics check to determine distance thrown.

Additional problems: Why shove (5 feet, costs an attack, requires a contest) when you could for an attack and a contest throw them further AND deal damage? On balance this needs resolution. Worse, you also include that the prone condition could be applied to both the thrown character and the hit character. That's like 4+ actions for the price of 1.

[Shining Wrath]

I love the picture you paint.

The Tarrasque may be immune to magical fire - but is that a function of the carapace? Discuss.

[AmbientRaven]

Point of order: Anything over 10 feet would seem to grant disadvantage, and anything over 1/3 carrying capacity grants disadvantage. Why wouldn't you always throw things that are over 1/3 carrying capacity AND need to go more than 10 feet? I mean, where's the downside when you already have disadvantage? And since it's a strength check, and advantage cancels out disadvantage, a raging barbarian could basically always throw something over 1/3 carrying capacity up to 30 feet with no advantage/disadvantage on the roll.

I suggest making it a hard limit: You can not throw anything more than carrying capacity.

Second, I either wouldn't allow it to deal damage at all, or deal damage to both the thrown person and the hit person. Why? Because in the case of a medium creature, it's 2d6+2xstr damage dealt total, more than using a greatsword.

I'd rule it like this: To throw a grappled creature their additional weight when combined with your gear must not exceed your carrying capacity, you must succeed on an opposed check (athletics vs athletics/acrobatics) to lift them and an athletics check to determine distance thrown.

Additional problems: Why shove (5 feet, costs an attack, requires a contest) when you could for an attack and a contest throw them further AND deal damage? On balance this needs resolution. Worse, you also include that the prone condition could be applied to both the thrown character and the hit character. That's like 4+ actions for the price of 1.

These are some great points

To address the range i may just make the range 30ft, and leave it at that. Cant throw over 30 feet
Barbarians have advantage on the check to grapple and throw them, but not on the check to throw vs ac. Rage is Adv on str ability checks, and str saving throws not on str to hit checks.

I also agree with the hard limit, but capping it at 1/3 carry capacity (being able to life something is different to being able to throw it, as many have pointed out)

As tot he actions. it takes one action to grapple them. Another to throw them. In the throw you are gaining damage + prone, but they can also save against it, and it has a chance to miss entirely. It ends up being 1 action to grapple, 1 to throw, taking 2 turns to throw the target. The damage ends up being lower than if they just attacked.
updated post 1 with some revised rules

[Slipperychicken]

Point of order: Anything over 10 feet would seem to grant disadvantage, and anything over 1/3 carrying capacity grants disadvantage. Why wouldn't you always throw things that are over 1/3 carrying capacity AND need to go more than 10 feet? I mean, where's the downside when you already have disadvantage? And since it's a strength check, and advantage cancels out disadvantage, a raging barbarian could basically always throw something over 1/3 carrying capacity up to 30 feet with no advantage/disadvantage on the roll.


Throwing the creature is an attack roll, not a strength check.

[ChubbyRain]

Improvised weapons have a range of 20/60.

I would say an athletics check could allow one to remove disadvantage at long range or to throw further than 60', perhaps to a max of 60' + Strength Score.

If you have Tavern Brawler you won't take disadvantage for using an improvised weapon in the first place.

[Vogonjeltz]

As tot he actions. it takes one action to grapple them. Another to throw them. In the throw you are gaining damage + prone, but they can also save against it, and it has a chance to miss entirely. It ends up being 1 action to grapple, 1 to throw, taking 2 turns to throw the target. The damage ends up being lower than if they just attacked.
updated post 1 with some revised rules

Oops on the advantage I blurred the lines between rage and reckless attack (which is melee weapon attacks anyway, so it still wouldn't count), my bad.

However, grapple can be done as a replacement to a melee attack, but my point of comparison was the shove action. One shove, which also replaces a melee attack, can either move the target 5 feet or knock it prone. Doing multiple shoves (i.e. 2 for 10 feet of movement and 1 for prone) would require replacing 3 melee attacks and require 3 contests. Throwing someone 10 feet who lands prone nets an extra 2 effective melee attacks. (1 net if you want to assume the target would not be grappled normally, but I don't know why they wouldn't).

If you add damage potential on top of that (attack roll where two targets get hurt) in one action you're getting the equivalent of 5 melee attacks for 1 (if you want to count the cost of the initial grapple you're getting 6 effects for 2 melee attack substitutions).

I think that's the biggest sticking point, the efficiency versus other things would be so good it wouldn't be worth doing anything else.

[Ramshack]

I'd go with something like this at my table.

Feat - Judo Toss

You must be grappling a target creature atleast 1 size smaller than you to try and throw them.

After successfully grappling your target you can use your bonus action to initiate a judo toss, you must succeed an athletics check DC 10. If athletics isn't trained you can use a strength check. On a successful check you automatically throw the target 5', for additionally you can throw the target an additional 5' for every 5 points you succeeded past 10 on your atheltics or strength check.

Damage equals 1d6 for every 5" feet thrown + your strength modifier. If the creature is stopped by a wall or other obstruction they take an additional 1d6 damage.

If throwing a creature at another target creature you must additionally make a ranged attack at the target. This attack is considered to be made a throwing weapon you proficient in.

If successful both targets take damage equal to 1d6 + 1d6 for every 5" feet thrown + the attackers strength modifier. Both creatures must then make a Dex save equal to the damage done or fall prone. The thrown creature lands in the square directly infront of the target creature.

On a failed attack, the thrown creature takes damage normally and lands in the square directly behind the target creature (or further if the roll allows) if the thrown creature would hit a wall or other obstruction behind the target creature they take an additional 1d6 damage.

All damage done is considered bludgeoning and is affected by standard damage reduction rules.

[Giant2005]

EDIT: UPDATED
Throwing the target
You can only throw grappled targets
You must first pass an athletics check to throw the target. If they are a size smaller than you, you have advantage on the check.

To Hit
The attack role is equal to a ranged attack with an improvised weapon.
-If the creature weighs greater than 1/5 of your carry capacity, they cannot be thrown

Range: 30
Damage: 1D4+Str damage
Both the thrown and the target may dex save to take half damage (DC is 8+prof+throwers str)

Prone: If either creature failed its dex save, it is also prone

This turned out really well. Good job.

[Roberto]

Related to this, what do you think would be needed to powerbomb or suplex a grapple enemy?

[Shining Wrath]

Related to this, what do you think would be needed to powerbomb or suplex a grapple enemy?

As the current post #1 has it for throwing it, except you attack the ground (AC 10). You may make a Athletics or Acrobatics (your choice) to retain your grip; otherwise you lose your grip and the foe is free.

If you have sufficient strength or dexterity, or your foe is incapacitated or dead, you may perform the series of attacks known as "Crystal's Vengeance".

[jkat718]

As the current post #1 has it for throwing it, except you attack the ground (AC 10). You may make a Athletics or Acrobatics (your choice) to retain your grip; otherwise you lose your grip and the foe is free.

If you have sufficient strength or dexterity, or your foe is incapacitated or dead, you may perform the series of attacks known as "Crystal's Vengeance".

I'd say the ground has a DEX score of 0 (-5 mod), let's give it an AC of 5. Or 7, if you want it to be proficient with itself. :) The DMG does list "Stone" as having an AC of 17, though...I MISSED THE GROUND! I CAN FLY!

[Shining Wrath]

I'd say the ground has a DEX score of 0 (-5 mod), let's give it an AC of 5. Or 7, if you want it to be proficient with itself. :) The DMG does list "Stone" as having an AC of 17, though...I MISSED THE GROUND! I CAN FLY!

I think an empty square had AC 5 in 3.5, so you may be right. The attack is not hitting the ground so much as it is driving the foe into the ground rather than sorta setting them on it.

[Slipperychicken]

If you ask me, I'd want to treat a suplex or whatever as an unarmed attack followed by a shove.

[Capac Amaru]

Inb4 Fastball Special/Dwarf Tossing

[jkat718]

Inb4 Fastball Special/Dwarf Tossing
What about this?

It's easier to toss a halfling than a dwarf, as demonstrated in the Mines of Moria.
Sorry, man...your fastball special turned out to be a cutter. :smalltongue: