discuss what makes rules-lite rules-list and rules-heavy rules-heavy

[ddude987]

Hey all!

So I have been in the works of working on my own rpg system (woot) and I've been having the idea I want a "classless levelful rules-medium_lite system" Now a discussion on what the heck a "classless levelful system" is is not one I want to have at this time, though if anyone has strong thoughts about it I'm not object as I'm still trying to figure out what that means, myself.

Onto the discussion...

Of all the systems I can think of: shadowrun, warhammer 40k, DnD, donjon, stars (thanks to Grod the Giant), and Unknown Armies, they can all be classified as rules-light/medium/heavy. I'm trying to make a system that is in the middle of light and medium, but am trying to figure out what makes a system rules-light/meduim/heavy?

I had a discussion with one of my roomates and the point that was made is to keep the number of derived stats down and to keep the balance of Y stat derived from X ability to be nearly the same across all abilities. The reasoning was if an ability changes, the more stats you need to chance which adds more complications and slows gameplay as a slue of numbers are updated (and sometimes only temporarily updated).

Topics for interesting discussion: The rules-complexity of a core mechanic (d20, 3d6, all d6, all opposed dice, et cetra), number of ability scores, number of skills

[Maglubiyet]

Rules lite vs rules heavy is a pretty subjective assessment.

The more times you need to reference the rulebook (or website) in order to do what you want in the game, the more rules heavy it is.

[Segev]

The heaviness of rules is more or less how "crunchy" they are. That is, in any particular situation, do you have rules that cover it specifically and/or which meticulously model it, or do you fall back on a general, catch-all rule (often involving GM judgment calls)?

The more the rules are hard-and-fast, the more rules-heavy it is because the more they must spell out how to handle as many situations as possible and do so in clearly delineated ways. The more the rules are guidelines, the more rules-light it is because the more situations are handled by the GM (with probable input from the players) making some sort of for-now ruling and/or calling for a generic roll.

Rules-light tends to be characterized by fewer rules with broader applications, and more requirement that people be flexible in applying them. Rules-heavy tends to be characterized by greater precision, with more expectation that there is a rule to cover a given situation and that what you've got on your character sheet accurately (though perhaps not always predictably) describes your capabilities in a given situation.

[Jay R]

"Rules-light" usually means that you can come up with an idea not considered by the author, and find a way to try it.

"Rules-heavy" usually means that the author has tried to think of every possibility and try to write a rule for it.

[ddude987]

What about rules-lite/heavy in terms of character creation? Do classless systems tend to make more rules-lite or less rules-lite? Thoughts on number of stats (basic or derived) that push a game from to simple to overly complex?

[Eisenheim]

most really rules lite systems are classless, but many classless systems aren't all rules lite. I've not really met a rules-lite system that needed classes as an organizational tool.

Really rules-lite systems, like fate core, with which I am most familiar, no or almost no derived stats. Fate core has one derived stat. In general, if you would need a pencil and paper to do the match needed for character creation, that's rules heavy.

[LibraryOgre]

What about rules-lite/heavy in terms of character creation? Do classless systems tend to make more rules-lite or less rules-lite? Thoughts on number of stats (basic or derived) that push a game from to simple to overly complex?

It can go either way. Consider Champions and GURPS, both of which are classless, but have incredibly involved character creation systems, whereas BECMI D&D is not rules-light, but it's character creation is pretty much "Roll six stats, choose a class, and then roll HP."

[Red Fel]

What about rules-lite/heavy in terms of character creation? Do classless systems tend to make more rules-lite or less rules-lite? Thoughts on number of stats (basic or derived) that push a game from to simple to overly complex?

It's as everyone has said. The more stuff you have to calculate and roll, the more rules-heavy you can consider the game.

For example, if you have only three stats - let's call them Moxie, Muscle, and Mysticality - and any given check is simply a roll on one of those stats, with situational modifiers as determined by the GM, that's fairly rules-light character generation and fairly rules-light mechanics. If you have those same three stats, but extensive tables detailing how they must be applied in any given circumstance, that's fairly rules-light character generation but rules-heavy mechanics. If instead you have about twenty stats, ranging from personality and physical attractiveness to physical lifting strength, running speed, manual dexterity and endurance, but any given check is simply a roll on one of those stats, you've got a rules-heavy character generation with moderately rules-light (towards rules-moderate) mechanics.

As a general principle, adding more stats makes things more rules-heavy. Adding substats or derived stats makes things more rules-heavy. For example, "Roll your Strength against his" is a fairly rules-light way to handle grappling in combat. "Roll your combat maneuver score, which involves your attack bonus, plus your Strength, plus a certain modifier derived as follows," is more rules-heavy.

Now, with regard to classless systems, that's not terrifically relevant. GURPS is classless, and has a simple mechanic (roll 3d6), but because pretty much everything is laid out with specificity, it can be pretty rules-heavy at times. By contrast, a class system in a game with simple mechanics can still be pretty rules-light. What classes do, as a rule, is provide a bundle of features at once, rather than requiring (or allowing) players to pick them a la carte. That doesn't mean that a classless system is inherently crunchier or less crunchy than one with classes.

[Maglubiyet]

What about rules-lite/heavy in terms of character creation? Do classless systems tend to make more rules-lite or less rules-lite?

Classes have the potential to save a lot of time in character creation. D&D is a prime example: when you say "I'm a fighter" you automatically know quite a lot about the character's capabilities. GURPS templates are designed to bridge the gap between complete free-form ability selection and pre-set abilities by adding a lot of functionality into selecting a single package.


Thoughts on number of stats (basic or derived) that push a game from to simple to overly complex?

Derived stats make a game shift towards the "rules-heavy" end. Consider Fate Core, which arguably has no stats at all, as a very "rules-light" game.


What is the premise of your RPG? Is it supposed to be "generic", fitting any genre? Or is it targeted towards a particular type of campaigning (horror, steampunk, fantasy, space opera, etc.)?

[Cluedrew]

I think in this analog rules = mass. So the more rules a system has the heavier it is. To me it doesn't matter what types of rules they are. That is a different although also valid topic. So character creation, game play, flavour enforcing rules all go into the pot, which in turn goes on a scale.

On a different note one of the most rules-lite systems I have ever seen had an option for classes. If I recall directly it was one sentence long.

[kyoryu]

I think that "rules light" or "rules heavy" kind of covers up some perhaps more interesting distinctions.

Like whether the interesting bits of the game are supposed to come from the situation, or the mechanics. Or whether players are supposed to interact with the game through the GM by telling the GM what they do, or whether they're supposed to directly interact with the mechanics.

Those things tend to correlate to "rules light" or "rules heavy", but I think they're more interesting distinctions.

[golentan]

In general, I think of Rules Heavy as being a game with more Exceptions.

Like, most games I play have a core mechanic. D20, you roll a D20 and add modifiers and try to hit or beat a target modifier. Exalted, you add up your Ability + Attribute, roll that many dice, and count successes to try to hit or beat a target number. In general, they're both pretty simple at heart, and when you need to figure out what you're doing all you really have to do is figure out which numbers on your sheet (which are usually fairly descriptive and give you a good idea of what you're doing) but they're neither of them rules light. Why? Exceptions.

So, in d20, of course, you have a number of types of action, that you can use on a number of different actions, you apply gear to all your numbers, sometimes you're not rolling a d20, sometimes a 1 is an automatic failure and sometimes it isn't, and magic rewrites the rules based on the spell/item being used as often as not. The core mechanic takes maybe 30 seconds to explain, a sample of play for a typical fighter might take 5 minutes, but then you get into actual play and you start having to delve into rules for height advantage and tripping and the wizard casting spells, and there are hundreds of pages of exceptions to that core mechanic that you have to have some idea of at least were to look.

Similarly, Exalted gets into rules for static values, willpower, essence, and then everyone throws around charms, so you need to know that charms are exceptions to the core mechanic and what the exception rule is when one charm says "My sword automatically hits you," and another charm says "Your sword automatically fails to hit you."

Contrast against, say, traveller. Where the core mechanic (2d6 + skill + ability + difficulty modifiers) almost always applies and there are fewer exceptions that come up in play (traveller puts most of its crunch on the DM's side, or on the preparation side: designing a starship may be hours of work, figuring out what goods are available on the market requires a number of tests) but whether you're shooting someone or negotiating a peace treaty there are way fewer exceptions to the core mechanic, putting it more in rules medium territory.

All the way down to games which can be explained in 5 minutes (like Pokethulhu) and require no additional explanation, because they are rules light and lack exceptions to the core mechanics by and large.

[Necroticplague]

Rules light: The rules are all very broad in nature, and can model a great many things. Thus, even large changes in situations can be handled with the same rules.
Rules Heavy:The rules are usually very specific in nature, modelling a relatively narrow situation. Thus, even relatively small changes in the situation require new sets of rules.