Arcane Hierophant Build

[torrasque666]

Just wondering how this looks, and making sure I followed the rules on this one.

NG Fey Bard 4/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant 4

Relevant Feats: Obtain Familiar, Natural Bond

My total bonuses should be as if I were a 8th level sorcerer, and a 11th level Druid(after applying the -3 from a Fleshraker) right? I'm only asking here and not in the RAW thread because I already asked, I got an answer that I feel is a bit sketchy for the first part(claims Fey Bard doesn't stack with Druid for Companion bonuses, while the Animal Companion adjustments rely on class level which states "The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion’s abilities and the alternative lists available to the character.") and I didn't want to clog that thread.

If I take this character to fruition and actually want to play it, what might I take as other feats? I'm looking at all the feats and other than the requisite Natural Spell, I'm blanking.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You don't actually need a familiar for Arcane Hierophant. The familiar is calculated as AH + arcane spellcasting classes, no matter if they grant a familiar or not.

[torrasque666]

You don't actually need a familiar for Arcane Hierophant. The familiar is calculated as AH + arcane spellcasting classes, no matter if they grant a familiar or not.
Huh. Didn't notice that. I guess I read that first comma as a period.

[ZamielVanWeber]

1) No where in Druid's animal companion does it say that it stacks with anyone else's. You would end up with two low level companions before AH.
2) AH specifies it adds to a druid's or ranger's companion, not bard's. You would have a Bard 3 companion and a Druid 7 companion.

[torrasque666]

1) No where in Druid's animal companion does it say that it stacks with anyone else's. You would end up with two low level companions before AH.
2) AH specifies it adds to a druid's or ranger's companion, not bard's. You would have a Bard 3 companion and a Druid 7 companion.
The Bard gains the Companion as a Druid though. By your reading, if someone with no Animal Companion that qualified took a level in Beastmaster for the companion, said companion wouldn't advance.

And it does state that a Druid's Animal Companion stacks with other ones. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion Go look at the Class Level lines. It says that any class levels of a class that grants a Companion stacks with Druid's for the purpose of determining companion abilities and alternate companions. Even went and double checked the PHB. Same thing.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The Bard gains the Companion as a Druid though. By your reading, if someone with no Animal Companion that qualified took a level in Beastmaster for the companion, said companion wouldn't advance.

How do you mean? The two are nothing alike. AH says it stacks with a druid/ranger companion and Beastmaster says you gain an effective druid level for your companion. There is no similarity in wording.

Edit: I want to point out that asking your DM would also be in order here. This build is actually interesting looking without being as overwhelmingly powerful as AH is famous for. I would let it fly in my games.

[torrasque666]

How do you mean? The two are nothing alike. AH says it stacks with a druid/ranger companion and Beastmaster says you gain an effective druid level for your companion. There is no similarity in wording.
Sorry, should have clarified. I meant if someone qualified for AH but lacked a Companion(by trading it away through ACFs for example) but had taken a level of Beastmaster, from the way I read your statement you claim that the Beastmaster's Companion wouldn't advance either.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Sorry, should have clarified. I meant if someone qualified for AH but lacked a Companion(by trading it away through ACFs for example) but had taken a level of Beastmaster, from the way I read your statement you claim that the Beastmaster's Companion wouldn't advance either.

I see what you mean. RAW, it wouldn't. Beastmaster isn't a druid or a ranger, so it doesn't stack with Arcane Heirophant. As I said before I think the RAW is silly, but there it is.

[torrasque666]

I see what you mean. RAW, it wouldn't. Beastmaster isn't a druid or a ranger, so it doesn't stack with Arcane Heirophant. As I said before I think the RAW is silly, but there it is.
OK, but given that the rules for Animal Companion (PHB p36) under the class levels section states that
Class Level: The character’s druid level. The druid’s class levels stackwith levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion (such as the ranger) such for the purpose of determining the companion’s abilities and the alternative lists available to the character.
wouldn't it not matter anyway, as I have druid levels in there for the Arcane Hirophant to stack with, and the Druid levels stack with the Bard levels due to the ACF.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The druid levels would stack with the Bard levels for animal companion 7. The AH levels stack with the Druid levels for animal companion 8. The AH, Bard, and Druid levels would not all stack however. RAW you would end up with the familiar companion of an 7th level arcane caster and an 8th level Druid.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Levels in classes that grant an animal companion always stack unless specifically described otherwise, because they're all based on the druid class feature where that rule is written.
The same applies to familiar progressions.

For the purposes of the animal companion your druid level is equal to druid + any class that grants an AC. The Companion Familiar level is (effective druid level for animal companion) + AH level.
That's the only interpretation that makes sense, because otherwise anything else that influences animal companions breaks (like Natural Bond).

The only way to get more than one animal companion is Beastmaster. Don't take it, it's a trap because the extra companions don't stack with anything (unless your DM allows Dragon Magazine, but you'd still need to spend a feat on Theurgic Bond for every companion individually).

You can get more than one familiar with the Extra Familiar feat from dragon magazine (#280 iirc). How that interacts with Companion Familiar is a question that you'll have to ask your DM.

[Chronos]

Extra Familiar wouldn't stack with Arcane Heirophant at all, because an AH doesn't have a familiar. An AH's pet is an animal companion. It has some of the benefits of a familiar, but it is not a familiar.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Extra Familiar wouldn't stack with Arcane Heirophant at all, because an AH doesn't have a familiar. An AH's pet is an animal companion. It has some of the benefits of a familiar, but it is not a familiar.

Arguable, since it's called a Companion Familiar. It's not really stated anywhere that i can see, but my interpretation is that it's both.
Obviously you shouldn't get another Companion Familiar for the cost of a feat, but you can explicitly get another Improved Familiar if you already have one, so it isn't that much of a stretch.

Even ruled your way you can still take Obtain Familiar since nothing forbids you from gaining a familiar after entering AH.

It's never come up in any game i was in, but it is a possible point of conflict if those feats are allowed.

[ZamielVanWeber]

For the purposes of the animal companion your druid level is equal to druid + any class that grants an AC. The Companion Familiar level is (effective druid level for animal companion) + AH level.
That's the only interpretation that makes sense, because otherwise anything else that influences animal companions breaks (like Natural Bond).

That is not what is explicitly stated in AH and you said yourself it is an interpretation. He came for a RAW answer and that is things get funky (as they love to do with RAW).

RAI I agree with you they should all stack.

[Chronos]

Arguable, since it's called a Companion Familiar. It's not really stated anywhere that i can see, but my interpretation is that it's both.
It doesn't even get everything a familiar gets (notably, it's missing the clause about HP, effective HD, skill ranks, and base saves). It's not a familiar.

Meanwhile, if it were a familiar, Extra Familiar is clear that anything that improves your familiar applies to all of the familiars gained via the feat. So in that case, yes, you would actually get two of those things.

[Troacctid]

I'd probably be Illumian with Improved Sigil (Krau) and go Bard 2/Druid 3 for a more efficient entry. Able Learner is probably in order, to keep all those juicy Bard class skills. Make sure you have a high Int score so you can actually keep taking them--since you have wild shape, you can dump your physical stats anyway, so it shouldn't be hard. On that note, consider Bardic Sage (if your DM lets you combine it with the animal companion variant)--the extra divination spells are worth losing a couple points in Reflex.


That is not what is explicitly stated in AH and you said yourself it is an interpretation. He came for a RAW answer and that is things get funky (as they love to do with RAW).

RAI I agree with you they should all stack.

The RAW seems clear that your Druid levels stack with all other classes that provide animal companions, unless you have some other citation that says otherwise. It doesn't seem in any way funky to me. Bard 4 and Druid 3 stack to give you an effective Druid level of 7, and you add Arcane Hierophant to that for an effective level of 11.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You clearly only get a single animal companion by RAW according to the Druid's Animal Companion entry in the PHB/SRD, under the definition of Class Level. Furthermore, a Companion Familiar replaces that animal companion and clearly states, "You add your arcane hierophant class level to your druid or ranger level for purposes of determining your animal companion’s [benefits]." That DOES NOT say your Druid or Ranger class level, but it does imply that it uses your Druid or Ranger animal companion level which by RAW includes every class level that grants the Animal Companion class feature. Since class level is not explicitly stated, taking the rules in context there's more RAW support for the Fey Bard and Druid levels to all count toward the Companion Familiar. Even if it did say class level, that's the exact name of the entry in the Druid's Animal Companion sidebar that explicitly states it includes all class levels that give you the animal companion class feature, so even if the RAW had any sort of support for not counting non-Druid levels, it actually wouldn't have any such support for that interpretation.


Regarding what feats to get, I'm going to strongly recommend Greenbound Summoning, and obtaining a Ring of the Beast. That ring is especially useful as it allows you to summon Unicorns from lower level spell slots.

Definitely pick up Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon, which allows you to spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, which allows you to spend Bard spell slots to spontaneously cast Druid spells. This will also allow you to spend two of your highest level Druid spells to cast a Summon Nature's ally of one level higher. Just being able to do this has favorable interaction with the Ring of the Beast, even if you never actually do it (you'll never even need to with that ring).

I'll also recommend the Summon Elemental reserve feat, especially if you use the above Versatile Spellcaster trick. That's useful for scouting, flanking, starting and putting out fires, making wind, and you can use it to Nodwick any traps you find.

[Troacctid]

Definitely pick up Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon, which allows you to spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, which allows you to spend Bard spell slots to spontaneously cast Druid spells. This will also allow you to spend two of your highest level Druid spells to cast a Summon Nature's ally of one level higher. Just being able to do this has favorable interaction with the Ring of the Beast, even if you never actually do it (you'll never even need to with that ring).

Druids (and Clerics) don't have known spells, unless you use the spontaneous variant. Also, per RC, a multiclass spellcaster can't cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Druids (and Clerics) don't have known spells, unless you use the spontaneous variant. Also, per RC, a multiclass spellcaster can't cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class.

Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, he or she learns new spells from that level automatically. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#newDivineSpells)

Learning a spell means gaining it as a spell known, assuming there's any consistency between the wording of Sorcerer and Bard spell acquisition and that of other classes.

[Sith_Happens]

Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, he or she learns new spells from that level automatically. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#newDivineSpells)

Learning a spell means gaining it as a spell known, assuming there's any consistency between the wording of Sorcerer and Bard spell acquisition and that of other classes.

On the other hand:


known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.