detect magic?

[Theodred theOld]

In our group detect magic has become something of a joke. Pc says " I use detect magic." Dm says " yep, it's magical." It became such a waste of time that no one ever prepares it or even thinks to use it anymore, yet somehow we still manage to find all sorts of magical stuff. Anyone have any thoughts on this or similar experiences?

[Segev]

Is it just that EVERYTHING is magical, or what?

[Ruethgar]

Well, I mean souls are magical. And if the world is old enough you may have Epic Destiny Druids everywhere that literally became the land. Also there is the weave in Faerun which is everywhere and is magical.

[Theodred theOld]

Meaning that if something seems magical it's usually obvious enough and if we want to know what spells are in place it turns into a simple spellcraft check. I know this is how the spell sorta works anyhow, we just cut out the part about expending a spell slot. Same with the detect alignment abilities. Evil usually presents itself pretty clearly and if a good guy is actually evil no dm is going to give that away with a simple detect evil.

[Segev]

Arcane Sight exists for just that purpose, though admittedly it would leave yo udown a spell slot or a magic item. Nice of your DM to hand-wave it.

[Geddy2112]

While one round of detect magic does not reveal anything but the presence/absence of magic, the subsequent 2 rounds are what is important. Knowing the number and most powerful magical aura is handy, and what kind of magic is very important. Not just for items, but active spells, particularly abjuration and illusion magic. Most obvious magic items are obviously magic, but again knowing what they do can be important.

Plus, it is one of the first forms of divination/sonar a party gets. While true seeing/see invisibility helps later on, a 0 level at will spell is something I will usually have prepared or know as a caster.

[Ediwir]

Well, I mean souls are magical. And if the world is old enough you may have Epic Destiny Druids everywhere that literally became the land. Also there is the weave in Faerun which is everywhere and is magical.

now, now, that's a bit of a stretch.
The Weave is not magical in itself - the Weave is magic. And while it's true that it permeates reality, it does not mean everything has magic working trough it at that single moment - it just has potential magical energy in it.
Detect Magic allows you to feel where the Weave has been bent/accessed/warped in order to use that potential energy.

As for souls, they're not magical. People do not drop dead in anti-magic fields.
(or should i say they don't drop un-dead?)

[Duke of Urrel]

In our group detect magic has become something of a joke. Pc says " I use detect magic." Dm says " yep, it's magical." It became such a waste of time that no one ever prepares it or even thinks to use it anymore, yet somehow we still manage to find all sorts of magical stuff. Anyone have any thoughts on this or similar experiences?

It's not always clear that something is magical. In particular, illusions are usually made to seem non-magical. Using Detect Magic to see a magic aura that indicates the Illusion school can be very helpful. Also, you can use the Detect Magic spell to locate an invisible creature, even though the creature remains invisible.


Meaning that if something seems magical it's usually obvious enough and if we want to know what spells are in place it turns into a simple spellcraft check. I know this is how the spell sorta works anyhow, we just cut out the part about expending a spell slot. Same with the detect alignment abilities. Evil usually presents itself pretty clearly and if a good guy is actually evil no dm is going to give that away with a simple detect evil.

Ah, but suppose an Evil creature is using the Undetectable Alignment spell. You can use the Detect Magic spell to detect this as an Abjuration spell, which should make you suspicious. A really cautious Evil creature that wants to hide both its alignment and the magic aura of the Undetectable Alignment spell needs to use the Nondetection spell, and even this spell is not foolproof.

[Ediwir]

Using Detect Magic to see a magic aura that indicates the Illusion school can be very helpful. Also, you can use the Detect Magic spell to locate an invisible creature, even though the creature remains invisible.

I remember having a discussion about this a while ago - it was something about illusion being near-useless for various reasons depending on the interpretation of some rules. It ended with ruling that casting Detect Magic (or having a similar spell active on you) gave you a free Will save to recognize the illusion, but couldn't detect it if you failed it.
It kinda makes illusions more than just cheap tricks. Illusionists and Gnomes will love that approach, other players will just think "oh, so illusion can actually trick people? ok."

(as for the invisibility, true, it lets you feel it. You can know the direction and distance, but you'll need Arcane Sight to target him or anything)


Ah, but suppose an Evil creature is using the Undetectable Alignment spell. You can use the Detect Magic spell to detect this as an Abjuration spell, which should make you suspicious. A really cautious Evil creature that wants to hide both its alignment and the magic aura of the Undetectable Alignment spell needs to use the Nondetection spell, and even this spell is not foolproof.

Misdirection is better :) Still not foolproof, but it does trick pretty much everything if you don't pass the save.

Nondetection has been the protagonist of a pretty funny situation in one of my games.
Evil wizard goes to discuss diplomacy with a paladin. Paladin knows he comes from a pretty bad place, but has a decent enough reputation - he knows the wizard is surely not Good, but he might be Neutral for all he knows. After a while he decides to detect evil on him.
W- there's a nondetection spell.
P- is there a save, or something to make?
W- a caster level check. DC 26.
P- my caster level is 5. **** you. you're neutral.

[Troacctid]

That's when you bust out Detect Fire. Any living creature without the Cold subtype will be detected by it. If they don't ping, you know something's up.

[Ediwir]

Not if you're a Paladin :P

Anyways, i think this thread could proceed in a more oriented manner if the OP came back to explain exactly what he meant with that opening. It's still a bit obscure to me.

[Surpriser]

I remember having a discussion about this a while ago - it was something about illusion being near-useless for various reasons depending on the interpretation of some rules. It ended with ruling that casting Detect Magic (or having a similar spell active on you) gave you a free Will save to recognize the illusion, but couldn't detect it if you failed it.
It kinda makes illusions more than just cheap tricks. Illusionists and Gnomes will love that approach, other players will just think "oh, so illusion can actually trick people? ok."

(as for the invisibility, true, it lets you feel it. You can know the direction and distance, but you'll need Arcane Sight to target him or anything)


Well, you don't even need the house rule. While Detect Magic can identify that something is an illusion, it is not so straightforward: Firstly, you need to suspect the presence of an illusion to cast it and then you have to use three rounds of concentration to get that result (and pass a Spellcraft Check).
In the same time, you could have simply tried to walk up to that wall and try to stick the end of a quarterstaff through, no magic required.

The trick is to create illusions that will make people not want to interact with them (magically or via a long stick), either because that would be dangerous (will that sleeping dragon hear you casting? Want to find out?) or because they would never even think about there being some kind of trick. My favourite thing in that regard is the imposing door with an elaborate lock mechanism. Behind the door is simply a wall, while there is an illusionary wall off to the side. Everyone will assume that they have to pick the lock/break down the door to proceed, noone checks the surrounding walls.

As for invisibility, that is already how detect magic works. You might sense the aura and thus know that probably there is an invisible creature standing in that square, but you don't see the creature themselves and thus can't target them with spells and they have total concealment against attacks made into that square.

[Ediwir]

No house rule, it was just our interpretation.
You might remember the point in the rules where it says you get the save if you interact with the illusion. We simply counted the spell as an interaction.

[JDL]

As per the SRD:


A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.

Using Detect Magic to identify the object or area in front of you as an illusion would certainly qualify as definitive proof.

Detect Magic is useful for another reason too, aside from the obvious uses to bypass illusions and identify items. It can detect magical traps without needing to roll Perception. The same strategy can be used for Detect Poison to check suspicious locked doors or handles for poison needle traps or contact poisons. Detect Evil is useful to find out if those corpses laying in the corner of the room are just scenery or if they're really undead waiting to attack.

[Surpriser]

No house rule, it was just our interpretation.
You might remember the point in the rules where it says you get the save if you interact with the illusion. We simply counted the spell as an interaction.
That seems reasonable and is also how I would rule it. After all, concentrating on something for 3 full rounds can very easily be justified as interacting with it.
I interpreted your post as meaning that you need to succeed on the Will save to even notice the presence of the Illusion aura.


As per the SRD:


A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.

Using Detect Magic to identify the object or area in front of you as an illusion would certainly qualify as definitive proof.

I disagree with you here: The fact that an object has an Illusion aura on it is not at all a proof that this object is not real. Just think of someone casting disguise self - using detect magic it would not be possible to distinguish between this and a minor image of that person.

[Ediwir]

mmmmmhno.
This is the RAW (taken from the pathfinder PRD 'cause it was already open, but 3.5 is very similar):

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

What we ended up seeing this as (the issue came up while playing and we had a little discussion after) was that upon casting the spell, or when the illusion enters the area of the spell (basically: when it would "blip" magic) you get your saving throw [interaction]. By the reasoning, casting a spell to examine it counted as "studying carefully".
If you fail the save, you "fail to notice" that something is wrong and get no auras to check. If you pass, the spell works normally.

There were a few reasons back then to rule this "in favor" of illusions, but seeing the Will save of most casters, it was still very strong at revealing them. Just not overwhelming.

But we're derailing the thread, i think. Maybe it's better to open an Illusion thread?

[Ettina]

Nondetection has been the protagonist of a pretty funny situation in one of my games.
Evil wizard goes to discuss diplomacy with a paladin. Paladin knows he comes from a pretty bad place, but has a decent enough reputation - he knows the wizard is surely not Good, but he might be Neutral for all he knows. After a while he decides to detect evil on him.
W- there's a nondetection spell.
P- is there a save, or something to make?
W- a caster level check. DC 26.
P- my caster level is 5. **** you. you're neutral.

Would he really know there was a nondetection spell? I thought if you detect evil and a spell is blocking it, you just get a result of 'not evil'.

Or is this a case of OOC knowledge being better than PC knowledge?

[Ediwir]

the paragraph depicts IC knowledge, the dialogue depicts OOC chat. He knew OOC that the wizard was evil, he was just avoiding metagame and playing relaxedly :P
such players are rare to find.

[Segev]

As per the SRD:


A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.

Using Detect Magic to identify the object or area in front of you as an illusion would certainly qualify as definitive proof.

Technically, what you're facing may not be a figment, but a glamour. Since you only know it's an Illusion, you don't automatically see through it. You just know something's not right. You don't know WHAT the truth is.

So you still need to conduct some sort of test or make a saving throw, though I'd probably rule that you get the +4 as your SPELL "communicated" the fact that it's an illusion to you.

i.e., I'd count detecting the Illusion aura as equivalent to having somebody who's made their save inform you, "That's an illusion."

[Jay R]

It sounds like your DM needs to include more non-magical stuff. The primary use we have for Detect Magic is to figure out what is really magic.

Searching the body, you find that he has a tunic, leather armor, bracers, belt, belt pouch, sword, two daggers, gloves, boots, and a silver medallion on a chain around his neck.

"We cast Detect Magic."
"The boots and one dagger are magic. Nothing else is. Also, Jeff's character who claimed he had no magic items is wearing magical gloves and carrying a magical sword."

[Theodred theOld]

Not if you're a Paladin :P

Anyways, i think this thread could proceed in a more oriented manner if the OP came back to explain exactly what he meant with that opening. It's still a bit obscure to me.

Clarification time. I used to prepare detect magic frequently but as our game progress it became obvious that using it was next to futile. If an object was enchanted it was usually described in such vivid detail that there was no question. Skip straight to identify. The dm also rarely use illusion on the party preferring a more straightforward approach to things. If anything appears to be unusual we investige but usually thing are what they appear.

[Theodred theOld]

Update: In a recent session the party happened upon a pair of hill giants guarding a cistern. After dispatching them we found not 1, not 2 but 50 scrolls of detect magic. It seems they were instructed to keep all magical items outside the room. Sweet irony.