Sorcerer build with spell like abilities

[Evan Epis]

Hello Playground,

I'm trying to come up with a Sorcerer build that focuses on SLAs. The theme and flavor is very draconic.

Until now I have:

Kobold Sorcerer - Draconic Rite of Passage for the 1st level SLA

1.Dragonblood Sorcerer - Give up Familiar for Draconic Heritage,
2.Sorcerer
3.Sorcerer - Feat: Draconic Reservoir SLA 3/day
4.Dragonblood Sorcerer - Spell as SLA that can be changed in the future - 1st Dragonpact
5.Sorcerer
6.Sorcerer - Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, to get back 1 spellcaster level later.
7.Pact-Bound Adept -
8.Pact-Bound Adept- Dragoncast - 3/day a spell is still and silent, up to 5th level
9.Pact-Bound Adept -
10.Pact-Bound Adept -
11.Pact-Bound Adept - 2nd Dragonpact
12.?
13.?
14.?
15.?
16.Archmage - High Arcana SLA
17.Archmage - High Arcana SLA
18.Archmage - High Arcana SLA
19.Archmage - High Arcana SLA
20.Archmage - High Arcana SLA


So my questions are:
*What would you do with levels 12,13,14 and 15?
*Are there any other feats, PRCs, items etc that come to mind, that offer more SLAs?
*What feats would you choose to enhance this concept? (3 are allready spent for AM entry and 1 for the Rite)

- 2 flaws
- Do not worry about ability scores
- All official stuff allowed, no dragon material

Any other proposal/opinion/comment is most welcome!
Thanks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Have you considered Dragonfire Adept? It's basically a draconic version of the Warlock-- all SLAs, all dragon-themed. It might be an easier way to fit your concept?

[Ruethgar]

There are feats in Complete Arcane that give a handful of SLAs each. Not very useful, but Night Haunt is nice. Let's see, you have all official sources open. That gives you 9 feats to spare and you can back load 4 of those leaving 5. If you are truly dedicated to SLA's, get the feats Sanctum, Quicken, Still, Silent, and multiple Innate Spells which can be any 2nd level or lower spell at 20. Of course I would be remise without mentioning DWK Spellhoarding is an option and would still give you 4 innate spells. Also note that ONLY Sanctum Spell, Heighten Spell and the Whispering Way alter spell level. So it is entirely valid to pick a Quicken Sanctum Scorching Ray as your 2nd level spell to give up a 9th level slot for. Without DWK cheese, you could have a 5th innate spell or go for Twin Spell using the aforementioned trick to make it a little more worth the 9th level slot loss and massive feat investment.

Edit: Also, depending on the class(es) you choose for 12-15 you could get more feats for more SLA's or you know actual focus on effectiveness.

[Evan Epis]

Have you considered Dragonfire Adept? It's basically a draconic version of the Warlock-- all SLAs, all dragon-themed. It might be an easier way to fit your concept?

DFA would be the easier way and the at-will-SLAs are very tempting indeed. The fire breathing mechanism also seems to fit the bill and is as draconic as it can be. The problem is that the class is very limited in what it can do (like the warlock) unless I recall incorrectly. Is it like...12 invocations in total?


There are feats in Complete Arcane that give a handful of SLAs each. Not very useful, but Night Haunt is nice. Let's see, you have all official sources open. That gives you 9 feats to spare and you can back load 4 of those leaving 5. If you are truly dedicated to SLA's, get the feats Sanctum, Quicken, Still, Silent, and multiple Innate Spells which can be any 2nd level or lower spell at 20. Of course I would be remise without mentioning DWK Spellhoarding is an option and would still give you 4 innate spells. Also note that ONLY Sanctum Spell, Heighten Spell and the Whispering Way alter spell level. So it is entirely valid to pick a Quicken Sanctum Scorching Ray as your 2nd level spell to give up a 9th level slot for. Without DWK cheese, you could have a 5th innate spell or go for Twin Spell using the aforementioned trick to make it a little more worth the 9th level slot loss and massive feat investment.

Edit: Also, depending on the class(es) you choose for 12-15 you could get more feats for more SLA's or you know actual focus on effectiveness.


Could I ask which version of innate spell is the latest one and which one are you refering to? The one in PGtF seems very nice to me. 1 slot for 3/Day sounds ok.

Are you using sanctum spell in order to have a "10th level" spell to power the innate spell found in CA?

Also, would it be ok to pick 1 or 2 feats for SLAs? The thing that really annoys me is not that they are 3/day, it's that you have to pick the SLA it will apply.

[Jack_Simth]

Hello Playground,

I'm trying to come up with a Sorcerer build that focuses on SLAs. The theme and flavor is very draconic.Hmm...

What's the optimization threshhold for yourself and your party? How far are you willing to rework the character? What's your starting level?

If you're starting higher than, say, 4th or 5th, it's fairly straightforward to have ALL your Sorcerer casting be spell-like abilities; Hatchling Phaerimm, Lost Empires of Faerun. LA+2, 1 racial hit die (which goes away with the first class level), but gets Sorcerer casting equal to hit dice, which stacks with actual sorcerer class levels (which, because of a missing word - "racial" - in front of hit dice, means that as a Hatchling Phaerimm (LA+2)/Sorceror-5 (ECL 7), you're casting as a Sorcerer-10). Big draw here for you, though, is that all Sorcerer spells are cast as spell-like abilities.

It's also possible to get a caster that has Miracle as an at-will spell-like ability pre-epic. Seriously. Human based PrC required, though:
A Sorcerer-6/Red Wizard-10/Sorcerer+4. Required feats: Tattoo Focus (prerequisite), Arcane Disciple (any domain that grants Miracle, such as Luck), Still Spell, Silent Spell, Quicken Spell, Extra Slot, Leadership, and Innate Spell (Innate Spell goes last, Tattoo Focus goes before Red Wizard, otherwise order is irrelevant). You use Red Wizard's Circle Magic to boost a spell to 18th level (or higher; a Quickened Miracle is funny). You then take Extra Slot to give yourself a 17th level spell slot. You then use Innate Spell on Miracle (or Quickened Miracle). Any 9th level spell works, of course; Conjouration does a lot, so Shades is a decent choice as well.

However, this sort of thing depends on your table's optimization threshhold, your starting level, and how much you're willing to rework the character concept.

[Ruethgar]

Could I ask which version of innate spell is the latest one and which one are you refering to? The one in PGtF seems very nice to me. 1 slot for 3/Day sounds ok.

Are you using sanctum spell in order to have a "10th level" spell to power the innate spell found in CA?

Also, would it be ok to pick 1 or 2 feats for SLAs? The thing that really annoys me is not that they are 3/day, it's that you have to pick the SLA it will apply.

I was using the Complete Arcane one which is more recent but does not necessarily overwrite PGtF. There have been instances in the past of two feats of the same name with completely different effects. The Sanctum spell is actually for the opposite, to lower the spell you select for the SLA by one. You can pick as many as you like, 1/round though is nice.

Do note that you do have to be able to cast the spell upon selecting the feat, it says nothing about afterward. This means that, while most metamagic doesn't increase spell level(and thus the slot you have to sacrifice), you would still have to be able to cast it normally. So you couldn't pick Twin Quicken Sanctum Scorching Ray as your SLA though you could Twin Quicken Sanctum Magic Missile(for an 8th level slot). If you can manage to get a Spellpool working for you, you can call Whispering Way spells two levels lower than normally available, they cause a negative level when you cast them, but that could expand your potential spells and how early you can pull it off quite significantly. Also note that one the SLA is in place it is set there unless you retrain, but this also means that you don't need to keep feats around. For example, you go for a Locate City Bomb SLA, you can retrain away the Energy Admixture, Coldcasting, etc. feats once you have the SLA at no penalty.

[Evan Epis]

Hmm...

What's the optimization threshhold for yourself and your party? How far are you willing to rework the character? What's your starting level?

If you're starting higher than, say, 4th or 5th, it's fairly straightforward to have ALL your Sorcerer casting be spell-like abilities; Hatchling Phaerimm, Lost Empires of Faerun. LA+2, 1 racial hit die (which goes away with the first class level), but gets Sorcerer casting equal to hit dice, which stacks with actual sorcerer class levels (which, because of a missing word - "racial" - in front of hit dice, means that as a Hatchling Phaerimm (LA+2)/Sorceror-5 (ECL 7), you're casting as a Sorcerer-10). Big draw here for you, though, is that all Sorcerer spells are cast as spell-like abilities.

It's also possible to get a caster that has Miracle as an at-will spell-like ability pre-epic. Seriously. Human based PrC required, though:
A Sorcerer-6/Red Wizard-10/Sorcerer+4. Required feats: Tattoo Focus (prerequisite), Arcane Disciple (any domain that grants Miracle, such as Luck), Still Spell, Silent Spell, Quicken Spell, Extra Slot, Leadership, and Innate Spell (Innate Spell goes last, Tattoo Focus goes before Red Wizard, otherwise order is irrelevant). You use Red Wizard's Circle Magic to boost a spell to 18th level (or higher; a Quickened Miracle is funny). You then take Extra Slot to give yourself a 17th level spell slot. You then use Innate Spell on Miracle (or Quickened Miracle). Any 9th level spell works, of course; Conjouration does a lot, so Shades is a decent choice as well.

However, this sort of thing depends on your table's optimization threshhold, your starting level, and how much you're willing to rework the character concept.

Party is Sorcerer/Dragonheart Mage (me), Conjurer/Malconvoker and DMM Cleric.
Optimization threshhold would be like "Miracle at-will at a reasonable level will be ok, miracle at-will at 9th level will not be". The story is designed for 4 people and since we are 3, there is a lot of risk for 1 (or all) to die. Should 1 dies, he joins at the current level, which would be 8+.

If it fits the theme and concept I described I'm willing to rework it a lot. The Red Wizard trick sounds really good, if the "atwillness" happens at a reasonable level.


I was using the Complete Arcane one which is more recent but does not necessarily overwrite PGtF. There have been instances in the past of two feats of the same name with completely different effects. The Sanctum spell is actually for the opposite, to lower the spell you select for the SLA by one. You can pick as many as you like, 1/round though is nice.

Do note that you do have to be able to cast the spell upon selecting the feat, it says nothing about afterward. This means that, while most metamagic doesn't increase spell level(and thus the slot you have to sacrifice), you would still have to be able to cast it normally. So you couldn't pick Twin Quicken Sanctum Scorching Ray as your SLA though you could Twin Quicken Sanctum Magic Missile(for an 8th level slot). If you can manage to get a Spellpool working for you, you can call Whispering Way spells two levels lower than normally available, they cause a negative level when you cast them, but that could expand your potential spells and how early you can pull it off quite significantly. Also note that one the SLA is in place it is set there unless you retrain, but this also means that you don't need to keep feats around. For example, you go for a Locate City Bomb SLA, you can retrain away the Energy Admixture, Coldcasting, etc. feats once you have the SLA at no penalty.

So a spell chosen via arcane disciple would require a high enough wisdom score, right? Would domain access be a better option then, If I wanted a specific divine spell?
And while we are at it, at what level are you expected to do the stuff you described?

[Azoth]

Could always go Phrenic (+2La), then when you buy it off use savage progression for Half-Fey (2 levels, refluff as a dragon of nature. Not a far stretch really). This will cost you 2 levels overall of your build, but will give you 26(IIRC) PLAs/SLAs. The PLAs are automatically fully augmented as if you spent HD=PP.

Shame you can't qualify for Magic in the Blood using a Kobold, or all of them would be 3/day or more.

[Grod_The_Giant]

DFA would be the easier way and the at-will-SLAs are very tempting indeed. The fire breathing mechanism also seems to fit the bill and is as draconic as it can be. The problem is that the class is very limited in what it can do (like the warlock) unless I recall incorrectly. Is it like...12 invocations in total?
There is that, sadly. They do better than the Warlock, since they get the equivalent of blast shape invocations for free, but most of the time you'll just be abusing Alter Self and Slow Breath/Entangling Exhalation. It doesn't scale up that well power wise, though, which sounds like it may be an issue. The best tricks the handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1101061)lists are still fairly mild: some fear/diplomancy, metabreath feat stacking (using the Power Surge feat to qualify), and creating hurricane-force winds. It's a solidly T3 class, but I don't think it's very upwardly mobile.

[Evan Epis]

There is that, sadly. They do better than the Warlock, since they get the equivalent of blast shape invocations for free, but most of the time you'll just be abusing Alter Self and Slow Breath/Entangling Exhalation. It doesn't scale up that well power wise, though, which sounds like it may be an issue. The best tricks the handbook lists are still fairly mild: some fear/diplomancy, metabreath feat stacking (using the Power Surge feat to qualify), and creating hurricane-force winds. It's a solidly T3 class, but I don't think it's very upwardly mobile.

Yeah, that is all very true. I'll keep it in mind though, as a last moment's back-up plan if i haven't finalised this build, so thanks!


Could always go Phrenic (+2La), then when you buy it off use savage progression for Half-Fey (2 levels, refluff as a dragon of nature. Not a far stretch really). This will cost you 2 levels overall of your build, but will give you 26(IIRC) PLAs/SLAs. The PLAs are automatically fully augmented as if you spent HD=PP

Shame you can't qualify for Magic in the Blood using a Kobold, or all of them would be 3/day or more..

I might be able to sqeeze this in somehow, thanks!

I made this example so you can have a picture of what SLAs are gained at each level, excluding items and feats, besides Draconic Reservoir.

1. Grease 1/Day
3. Grease 3/Day
4. Grease 3/Day, Shield 3/Day, Bless 2/day
6. Grease 3/Day, Alter Self 3/Day, Bless 3/day, lesser restoration 1/day
7. Grease 3/Day, Alter Self 3/Day, Bless 3/day, lesser restoration 2/day
8. Grease 3/Day, - Replace Alter Self? -, Bless 3/day, lesser restoration 3/day, fire shield (hot) 1/day
10. Grease 3/Day, - Replace Alter Self? -, Bless 3/day, lesser restoration 3/day, fire shield (hot) 2/day
11. Grease 3/Day, Polymorph 3/Day, Bless 3/day, lesser restoration 3/day, fire shield (hot) 3/day, mass cure light wounds 1/day, Shield 3/day, dispel magic 3/day, lesser globe of invulnerability 3/day, repulsion 1/day

Colors are for: Rite of Passage/Draconic Reservoir, Dr.Blood Sorc, 1st Dr.Pact, 2nd DrPact.

I guess sometime after that, the innate spell combo gives me the at-will-SLA?

Do these seem ok choices? Any other suggestions on Dragonpacts in general?

[Tvtyrant]

Phaerimm cast all of their sorcery spells as SLAs. You might buy two scrolls of polulymorph any object and grab the Assume Supernatural Ability feat. Then just disguise self back into being a Kobold.

[Jack_Simth]

Party is Sorcerer/Dragonheart Mage (me), Conjurer/Malconvoker and DMM Cleric.
Optimization threshhold would be like "Miracle at-will at a reasonable level will be ok, miracle at-will at 9th level will not be". The story is designed for 4 people and since we are 3, there is a lot of risk for 1 (or all) to die. Should 1 dies, he joins at the current level, which would be 8+.

If it fits the theme and concept I described I'm willing to rework it a lot. The Red Wizard trick sounds really good, if the "atwillness" happens at a reasonable level.It requires something like seven or eight feats, and the key feat happens to be the last one in the line. So it'd be something like 15th or 18th level when the at-will Miracle comes online.


Phaerimm cast all of their sorcery spells as SLAs. You might buy two scrolls of polulymorph any object and grab the Assume Supernatural Ability feat. Then just disguise self back into being a Kobold.
Problem: Phaerimm spellcasting is Spell-like, not Supernatural.

[Tvtyrant]

It requires something like seven or eight feats, and the key feat happens to be the last one in the line. So it'd be something like 15th or 18th level when the at-will Miracle comes online.


Problem: Phaerimm spellcasting is Spell-like, not Supernatural.

Just play as one then I guess. Still works that way.

[Evan Epis]

It requires something like seven or eight feats, and the key feat happens to be the last one in the line. So it'd be something like 15th or 18th level when the at-will Miracle comes online.

Ok that sounds pretty reasonable a level. It has a bit of "Jesus" concept in it (leader of a "circle" that casts miracles at will here and there), so it might be fun to play if I can refluff it to something like: Chromatic Wizard or, I don't know. Can you do this with all PrCs that grant cirlce magic?


Just play as one then I guess. Still works that way.

There are two major problems with Phaerimms.

1)Their appearance blows hideously

2)They have a very weird writing in their spellcasting ability, besides casting all their spells as SLAs, that might be/is very abusable in my eyes, unless I'm mistaken. I mean, miracle at will at 15-18 level "pales" in comparison to - enter 9th level spell - 3/day at 9th level, doesn't it?

[Extra Anchovies]

2)They have a very weird writing in their spellcasting ability, besides casting all their spells as SLAs, that might be/is very abusable in my eyes, unless I'm mistaken. I mean, miracle at will at 15-18 level "pales" in comparison to - enter 9th level spell - 3/day at 9th level, doesn't it?

Nah, the text just says this:

Phaerimm Magic (Sp): Phaerimms cast their sorcerer spells as if they were spell-like abilities, requiring neither verbal, somatic, nor material components.


1)Their appearance blows hideously.

I think you mean "their appearance is pretty frickin' rad"
http://crpp0001.uqtr.ca/w4/campagne/images/WotC_Art_Galleries/Monsters_Faerun/Phaerimm.jpg

I'm a bit concerned by the 5 RHD and no listed LA, though.

[Evan Epis]

Nah, the text just says this:
Quote Originally Posted by Monsters of Faerûn, p. 70
Phaerimm Magic (Sp): Phaerimms cast their sorcerer spells as if they were spell-like abilities, requiring neither verbal, somatic, nor material components.

I was checking Lost empires of Faerun which is the 3.5 version of it I think.
Check the part where it says about their Sorcerer casting and how it works in regard to their HD.
Their LA is +2.

[Extra Anchovies]

I was checking Lost empires of Faerun which is the 3.5 version of it I think.
Check the part where it says about their Sorcerer casting and how it works in regard to their HD.
Their LA is +2.

Huh. The only change is from (Sp) to untyped neutral ability. That art's even cooler-looking, too.

[Evan Epis]

Huh. The only change is from (Sp) to untyped neutral ability. That art's even cooler-looking, too.

These 2 are the ones that confused me:


Spells:
A phaerimm casts arcane spells as a sorcerer (caster level equals phaerimm’s character level).
Phaerimms use their sorcerer spells as if they were spell-like abilities, so they require no verbal, somatic, or material components.


A phaerimm’s favored class is sorcerer. Its sorcerer levels stack with its base spellcasting ability for the purpose of determining spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level

I mean, do they allready have a base ability that allows them to cast Spells as sorcerer of their level that stacks with the normal sorcerer levels you get through class levels?

[Extra Anchovies]

These 2 are the ones that confused me:

I mean, do they allready have a base ability that allows them to cast Spells as sorcerer of their level that stacks with the normal sorcerer levels you get through class levels?

That first section is really wonky. It sets a caster level but not an effective sorcerer level, so it doesn't explicitly give them any sorcerer spellcasting, having not defined a means by which it scales. By RAW, they don't gain any spellcasting from racial hit dice or non-sorcerer classes, but a Phaerimm (RHD) 5/(non-sorcerer class) 2/Sorcerer 3 has a CL of 10 and the spells known/per day of a 3rd-level sorcerer.

Were I to fix it so that they do have innate spellcasting, I'd set effective sorcerer level equal to RHD plus sorcerer levels plus casting increases from PrCs.