Pummeling Style: What are the benefits?

[Pax_Chi]

Pummeling Style was a combat feat added in the Advanced Class Guide, which has the following features:

Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit. You can only use Pummeling Style with unarmed strikes (see errata at right).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-style-combat-style

Now, maybe I'm just confused by the reading, but what is the Benefit here? It sounds like you roll the number of attacks you would have gotten anyway, only instead of each doing damage separately it's all one big damage bonus. Which is good for overcoming Damage Reduction I suppose, but are there any other benefits I'm not seeing? I mean, aside from apparently making Blood Crow Strike a viable option for a Sacred Fist Warpriest.

[Wagadodo]

The benefit is that you add all you damage to one attack allowing you to overcome damage reduction. So one big attack to get past that pesky 10/- damage or of course any other damage.

[Extra Anchovies]

The most immediate benefit is that it's easier to brute-force through DR with it. Also, if one of your attacks crits, all of them do.

What makes it a must-have on unarmed characters, though, is Pummeling Charge, the second feat in the style set. It's pounce as a feat, basically.

[Spore]

Also, if one of your attacks crits, all of them do.

Use a weapon with a high crit chance, take improved critical and enjoy a high critical chance from a 15-20 weapon. (50 or 60% for sure)

[NightbringerGGZ]

Pummeling Style was a combat feat added in the Advanced Class Guide, which has the following features:

Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit. You can only use Pummeling Style with unarmed strikes (see errata at right).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-style-combat-style

Now, maybe I'm just confused by the reading, but what is the Benefit here? It sounds like you roll the number of attacks you would have gotten anyway, only instead of each doing damage separately it's all one big damage bonus. Which is good for overcoming Damage Reduction I suppose, but are there any other benefits I'm not seeing? I mean, aside from apparently making Blood Crow Strike a viable option for a Sacred Fist Warpriest.

First, it is an easy way to work around damage reduction. That's a big enough effect for a feat all by itself. You also get the ability that if you land one crit from any of your multiple attacks, then all hits are crits. That's pretty useful once you have several attacks rolling.

This feat is also a Prerequisite for Pummeling Charge, which lets you make a Pummeling Style attack at the end of a charge (basically giving you Pounce). It is a really nice feat chain.


Use a weapon with a high crit chance, take improved critical and enjoy a high critical chance from a 15-20 weapon. (50 or 60% for sure)

Eratta nerfed Pummeling Style to only work with Unarmed Strikes.

[Extra Anchovies]

Eratta nerfed Pummeling Style to only work with Unarmed Strikes.

Indeed. You can still get around it with Martial Versatility, though. Works with either the Close or the Monk weapon group.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Something fun I cooked up was combining it with the Called Shot feats. With both of them, your big massive attack has all these benefits PLUS being one big called shot, and you have a greater chance of pulling off the critical/debilitating blows.

[Ssalarn]

The most immediate benefit is that it's easier to brute-force through DR with it. Also, if one of your attacks crits, all of them do.


I cannot stress enough how insanely powerful that is. With a DPR optimized Brawler or Monk, that's pretty much the win button. It's a huge damage booster, especially when you look at the fact that a critical threat is always confirmed at your highest bonus. So, if you roll a critical on your 4th iterative, you're confirming it as though it's your first swing. That's a huge deal, as it means there's no drop in the likelihood of confirming a threat.
For comparison, a Fighter's flat DPR on a full attack runs neck and neck with the Barbarian throughout pretty much the whole life of the game, but when Weapon Mastery comes online at 20th, the Fighter's damage projections are nearly 20% higher than Barbarians, solely due to auto-confirming crits. The barbarian's access to pounce puts the lie to that number in actual play, but part of the Pummeling Style chain allows you to use the "super attack" as part of a charge. There's probably no other feat chain that does so much to improve the monk's DPR.

[Extra Anchovies]

There's probably no other feat chain that does so much to improve the monk's DPR.

Or any other unarmed character, especially those with flurry attacks like the Brawler and Sacred Fist Warpriest. I like Sacred Fist best; they can grab fighter-only feats, including Martial Versatility (monk weapons), which lets them Pummel-flurry with the Sansetsukon, a two-handed 19-20 crit range weapon. TONS OF DAMAGE!!!

[Oddman80]

I cannot stress enough how insanely powerful that is. With a DPR optimized Brawler or Monk, that's pretty much the win button. It's a huge damage booster, especially when you look at the fact that a critical threat is always confirmed at your highest bonus. So, if you roll a critical on your 4th iterative, you're confirming it as though it's your first swing. That's a huge deal, as it means there's no drop in the likelihood of confirming a threat.


No. That is not how rolling to confirm works.



When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a "threat," meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to "confirm" the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit.

Nothing about Pummeling Style allows you to use a different attack bonus than the one that threatened the critical.

That said - it's still a wicked awesome feat!

[Bhaakon]

Nothing about Pummeling Style allows you to use a different attack bonus than the one that threatened the critical.

Yes it does.


If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.

[BlackDragonKing]

Pummeling Style was a combat feat added in the Advanced Class Guide, which has the following features:

Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit. You can only use Pummeling Style with unarmed strikes (see errata at right).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-style-combat-style

Now, maybe I'm just confused by the reading, but what is the Benefit here? It sounds like you roll the number of attacks you would have gotten anyway, only instead of each doing damage separately it's all one big damage bonus. Which is good for overcoming Damage Reduction I suppose, but are there any other benefits I'm not seeing? I mean, aside from apparently making Blood Crow Strike a viable option for a Sacred Fist Warpriest.

One thing you didn't consider is that Pummeling Style does lead into Pummeling Charge, which allows Monks and Brawlers to full-attack while still moving around. So not only do your megacrit punches smash through DR much more easily, you can rush down that cowardly rogue with his short bow and hit him with your entire massive barrage of punches while the poor fighter only gets a single whack in because he took more than a single step this turn. That's pretty big.

[Ssalarn]

No. That is not how rolling to confirm works.



Nothing about Pummeling Style allows you to use a different attack bonus than the one that threatened the critical.

That said - it's still a wicked awesome feat!


I was going to point out what you missed, but I see that Bhaakon already did so. So yeah, it works exactly like I said, which is why the feat is so powerful. You always get to confirm using your highest attack bonus, so your chances of successfully dealing a critical hit are vastly improved there, then they're further improved by the fact that confirming one attack turns an entire routine of upwards of nine attacks into critical hits. Pummeling Style is an incredible damage multiplier, even before the ability to use the pummeling strike on a charge comes into play.

[Extra Anchovies]

upwards of nine attacks into critical hits.

Huh. I can see nine (full flurry + ki power + haste), but how do you get more than that in a flurry of blows?

[Bhaakon]

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that there's no clause preventing a character from applying multiple instances of bonus damage (strength, power attack, enchantments, etc.). Other abilities that concentrate multiple attacks into one, like Vital Strike and Dead Shot, only let a character apply bonus damage once. Pummeling Style just says, "For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls." I don't see how "normal damage" doesn't include all bonus damage.

I wonder if wad intentionally written that way or they simply forgot to give it a similar limitation. Given the quality of editing in that particular hardcover (very low) and what we've seen from the devs in general, I suspect it was an oversight.

[Ssalarn]

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that there's no clause preventing a character from applying multiple instances of bonus damage (strength, power attack, enchantments, etc.). Other abilities that concentrate multiple attacks into one, like Vital Strike and Dead Shot, only let a character apply bonus damage once. Pummeling Style just says, "For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls." I don't see how "normal damage" doesn't include all bonus damage.

I wonder if wad intentionally written that way or they simply forgot to give it a similar limitation. Given the quality of editing in that particular hardcover (very low) and what we've seen from the devs in general, I suspect it was an oversight.
Except they've already posted the errata for the second printing, and while they changed Pummeling Style so it only works with unarmed strikes, they left that bit about the damage alone (and you can believe they knew about it, because it was all over their forums when the book came out, and people were specifically asking about why it was different from similar abilities, like the Gunslinger's Dead Shot Deed). So I'don't say at this point it's pretty intentional, and not an oversight.

I can see them intentionally leaving the bonus damage, as that makes the feat chain basically equivalent to getting Pounce and helping with overcome DR, something unarmed characters often struggle with. It's just weird that they felt the need to throw a Perfect Strike level crit amplifier on there as well; that's the bit that really makes the feat so much more powerful than existing options.

[Extra Anchovies]

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that there's no clause preventing a character from applying multiple instances of bonus damage (strength, power attack, enchantments, etc.). Other abilities that concentrate multiple attacks into one, like Vital Strike and Dead Shot, only let a character apply bonus damage once. Pummeling Style just says, "For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls." I don't see how "normal damage" doesn't include all bonus damage.

If it didn't apply strength/power attack/enchantments multiple times, it would be a full-round Vital Strike, and it would be awful. Taking the feat is supposed to give you a benefit, in this case the nastier crits and better DR penetration.

Also, Vital Strike is unequivocally bad for the very reasons you seem to be implying that it is balanced.

[Ssalarn]

Also, Vital Strike is unequivocally bad for the very reasons you seem to be implying that it is balanced.

Truth. Vital Strike is terrible on a few fronts. It's supposed to help reduce the penalty that martial characters suffer when they're forced to move, and yet it costs multiple feats to advance and rarely adds anything more damage-wise than you get from just taking Power Attack. It's also supposed to be aimed at martial characters, but it's most powerful for druids, who can use it with extremely large attack die natural attacks, or other spellcasters who can wield oversized weapons with spells like giant form or righteous might. Barbarians and Fighters are capping out around 4d6 base damage die, while spellcasters are getting up into the 16d6 and higher range. So a Fighter with Greater Vital Strike is getting the same amount of damage as a druid before applying the starter version.
Vital Strike also has the special rule that it can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific type of standard action and not the same thing as just an attack, so it's not compatible with virtually any other core feat a character might want to take in order to be effective in a round they move (largely because the attack action ruling didn't exist when the CRB was written and no one was writing feats with that in mind).

[Bhaakon]

If it didn't apply strength/power attack/enchantments multiple times, it would be a full-round Vital Strike, and it would be awful. Taking the feat is supposed to give you a benefit, in this case the nastier crits and better DR penetration.

No, it wouldn't be a full round Vital Strike. That feat gives a fixed number of damage dice whereas Pummeling Style scales with number of attacks. This is particularly important because the Vital Strike feat line's bonus damage dice are keyed to the full attack of a full BAB class at a given level, which is always a step or more behind the number of attacks a flurrying monk/brawler can get off.


Also, Vital Strike is unequivocally bad for the very reasons you seem to be implying that it is balanced.

I'm not implying anything as to its balance, I'm stating that it's noticeably out of line with how the Pathfinder devs have handled similar abilities. If I'm implying anything, it's that I expect them to change it in a FAQ or errata.

[Psyren]

Pummeling Charge is balanced. The weapon restrictions mean you need feat and race taxes to go outside unarmed strikes with it, and class taxes if you want to stay with unarmed strike and be good - and since it's a style feat it restricts the other styles you get to combine it with, which further restricts your damage options and even your damage type.

With Stamina it gets even better - Stam!PS lets you perform the absurdly powerful punch as a standard action, basically turning it into Mythic Vital Strike.


Huh. I can see nine (full flurry + ki power + haste), but how do you get more than that in a flurry of blows?

Stamina + Pummeling Charge lets you add another at your highest base attack bonus for 10.

[PsyBomb]

Pummeling Charge is balanced. The weapon restrictions mean you need feat and race taxes to go outside unarmed strikes with it, and class taxes if you want to stay with unarmed strike and be good - and since it's a style feat it restricts the other styles you get to combine it with, which further restricts your damage options and even your damage type.

With Stamina it gets even better - Stam!PS lets you perform the absurdly powerful punch as a standard action, basically turning it into Mythic Vital Strike.



Stamina + Pummeling Charge lets you add another at your highest base attack bonus for 10.

I remember one theory that the Stamina System was going to end up as a tie-in to Mythic by spending the resource to turn feats into the Mythic versions for a round. While the theory itself wasn't on-target, it is amusing to see that it worked out that way in a couple of instances.

[Psyren]

I remember one theory that the Stamina System was going to end up as a tie-in to Mythic by spending the resource to turn feats into the Mythic versions for a round. While the theory itself wasn't on-target, it is amusing to see that it worked out that way in a couple of instances.

Mythic Combat Stamina is going to be scary indeed :smalleek:

They forgot Kraken Style for the Stamina system though :smallfrown:

[Kudaku]

I have a brawler in my Emerald Spire campaign using pummeling style with a tri-bladed katar for x4 crit hilarity. His current record is ~330 damage at level 8. It's a fun feat chain. :smallsmile:

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm guessing Stamina is the martial resource system from Unchained? I can't wait for that book to go on the SRD, if only because everyone keeps referencing it.

And because I'm a college student with no money for books. Thank you based Paizo for giving me all this stuff for free as long as my computer works.

[Prime32]

I'll just leave this here... (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10132.0;msg=253574)


With Stamina it gets even better - Stam!PS lets you perform the absurdly powerful punch as a standard action, basically turning it into Mythic Vital Strike.There's also Rhino Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/rhino-charge-combat) and Horn of the Criosphinx (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horn-of-the-criosphinx-combat).

[Extra Anchovies]

I'll just leave this here... (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10132.0;msg=253574)

Good lord. I thought that level of optimization wasn't possible in PF.

[Psyren]

Good lord. I thought that level of optimization wasn't possible in PF.

Not exactly - that build relies on psionics to work (Cannonneer and Gifted Blade) which are 3rd-party.



And because I'm a college student with no money for books. Thank you based Paizo for giving me all this stuff for free as long as my computer works.

Hell, I have money and I still love that everything is OGL. Makes SRDs and apps a breeze to find. (It also quite amusingly takes the wind out of anyone's "paying for houserules!" sails :smallbiggrin:)