BAB vs Touch Spells for Gish

[Spectre9000]

I've been scouring various sources and looking at many builds and I'm close to a few that I think will accomplish what I want, but then the thought occurred to me: Why do I need BAB?

The answer is that it gives me that max amount of attacks as well as an increased chance to hit, which allow me to do better in Melee attacking with a weapon, and synergizes well with Power attack and so on. However, why do I need to attack with a weapon? Can't I just get by with Touch spells and do an equivalent amount of damage? Do you actually need to have a weapon as a Gish, or would Touch spells be enough?

[Snowbluff]

You can rack up some sick damage with a lot of attacks, which BAB gives you. Power Attack and Arcane Strike are popular. Wraithstrike makes all of those touch attacks, too. Most gish builds go "max power attack, haste, wraithstrike, hit for 5 attacks for +32 damage. Arcane Strike to taste."

IIRC, most touch spells don't let you hit for iterative attacks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Any decent gish uses Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, which absolutely relies on BAB. Furthermore, you gain more attacks in a full attack with more BAB, which is beneficial for this style of play. Finally, you can use Wraithstrike to make all of your melee attacks into touch attacks, so 100% of your BAB can be converted into damage.

Casting touch spells as a gish is an absolute waste of spell slots. A gish uses spells to buff himself, or to crowd control multiple opponents with a single spell, not for dealing damage.

[tyckspoon]

You can rack up some sick damage with a lot of attacks, which BAB gives you. Power Attack and Arcane Strike are popular. Wraithstrike makes all of those touch attacks, too. Most gish builds go "max power attack, haste, wraithstrike, hit for 5 attacks for +32 damage. Arcane Strike to taste."

IIRC, most touch spells don't let you hit for iterative attacks.


There's a decent handful of pseudoweapon-creating spells that let you make touch attacks (Ice Axe is the one I keep remembering. Also Thunderlance lets you attack with your casting stat, but I think it's still normal attacks instead of touch AC) but Wraithstrike is favored for being a natural Swift action, so you can use it and then make a full attack/pouncing Charge in the same round instead of having to Quicken another spell or cast in one round and only start attacking after (note- if a spell has multiple charges, such as Chill Touch, then you can certainly make iteratives with it. Action economy just doesn't usually allow for doing this in the same round as you first cast it.) Wraithstrike is also an amazing Wand Chamber spell if you're working with the Rules Compendium text that makes wands the same action to activate as the spell they contain (contrast the similar core text, which says they're same action or at least standard, whichever is slower.)

[Spectre9000]

If what you say is true, that using a weapon is going to produce considerably more damage, how do Sorcerers and Wizards normally keep up in damage versus melee fighting? I mean Disintegrate deals 2d6/per caster level damage (max 40d6). I understand it becomes taxing on spell slots, and that's a different problem, but it seems like you could maintain the same amount of damage using touch spells. I think I'll probably continue down the BAB route as it gives more sustainability, especially with persisting spells, but wonder if there wouldn't be some viable build not involving a BAB for melee attacks as a spellcaster.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If what you say is true, that using a weapon is going to produce considerably more damage, how do Sorcerers and Wizards normally keep up in damage versus melee fighting? I mean Disintegrate deals 2d6/per caster level damage (max 40d6). I understand it becomes taxing on spell slots, and that's a different problem, but it seems like you could maintain the same amount of damage using touch spells. I think I'll probably continue down the BAB route as it gives more sustainability, especially with persisting spells, but wonder if there wouldn't be some viable build not involving a BAB for melee attacks as a spellcaster.

Wizards and Sorcerers who use their spells to deal damage are doing it wrong. Dealing damage is the job of the melee fighters, the spellcasters should be using spells like color spray, glitterdust, web, black tentacles, etc. that neutralize opponents immediately. This keeps the opponents from harming the party while the melee fighters go do their job of dealing sufficient damage to kill the enemy. Damage output is not always something that you can use to measure a character's value.

[Dusk Eclipse]

As a non-gish caster you shouldn't be using spells to deal damage, that's why there are fighters, instead you should be focusing on battlefield control, debuffing (preferably in area), making the fight easier. Disintegrate isn't a combat spell (it sucks at it, except vs. undead) it is an utility spell.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If what you say is true, that using a weapon is going to produce considerably more damage, how do Sorcerers and Wizards normally keep up in damage versus melee fighting? I mean Disintegrate deals 2d6/per caster level damage (max 40d6). I understand it becomes taxing on spell slots, and that's a different problem, but it seems like you could maintain the same amount of damage using touch spells. I think I'll probably continue down the BAB route as it gives more sustainability, especially with persisting spells, but wonder if there wouldn't be some viable build not involving a BAB for melee attacks as a spellcaster.
Spellcasters who want to do damage usually have to figure out how to use multiple reduced-cost metamagic effects on their damage spells. 15d6 from an orb of fire is pretty weak (average: 52.5), but a twinned empowered orb of fire (average: 157.5) looks a lot better. Add on action-economy abuse like Quicken Spell and arcane fusion for more fun.

[Optimator]

Yeah, a gish using attack spells and touch spells with any sort of frequency is sort of... un-gishing, no?

[jiriku]

I've been scouring various sources and looking at many builds and I'm close to a few that I think will accomplish what I want, but then the thought occurred to me: Why do I need BAB?

The answer is that it gives me that max amount of attacks as well as an increased chance to hit, which allow me to do better in Melee attacking with a weapon, and synergizes well with Power attack and so on. However, why do I need to attack with a weapon? Can't I just get by with Touch spells and do an equivalent amount of damage? Do you actually need to have a weapon as a Gish, or would Touch spells be enough?

Frequently, "gish" means "someone who sacrifices casting potential for increased effectiveness when fighting with weapons and armor". If you aren't making this trade-off, you may be dealing a lot of damage via one method or another, but you are probably a blaster, not a gish.

[Spectre9000]

Frequently, "gish" means "someone who sacrifices casting potential for increased effectiveness when fighting with weapons and armor". If you aren't making this trade-off, you may be dealing a lot of damage via one method or another, but you are probably a blaster, not a gish.

I've taken Gish to mean Spellcasting in Melee, ie. Melee Wizard. Usually this would mean with a weapon, but you have an entire set of spells designed around melee fighting as a spellcaster, which is why I was asking this question. Also, I've noticed a lot of Gish's don't use armor, but rely entirely on Mage Armor, Luminous Armor, etc.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've taken Gish to mean Spellcasting in Melee, ie. Melee Wizard. Usually this would mean with a weapon, but you have an entire set of spells designed around melee fighting as a spellcaster, which is why I was asking this question. Also, I've noticed a lot of Gish's don't use armor, but rely entirely on Mage Armor, Luminous Armor, etc.
True. There are a few reasons for that: it's cheaper, you don't have to worry about gaining the ability to cast in light armor, and-- since most gish take all 5 levels of Abjurant Champion-- it's more effective. (Greater Mage Armor with Abjurant Champion gives you what's effectively +7 ghost touch mithril chain shirt, but with an even higher max dexterity.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I've taken Gish to mean Spellcasting in Melee, ie. Melee Wizard. Usually this would mean with a weapon, but you have an entire set of spells designed around melee fighting as a spellcaster, which is why I was asking this question. Also, I've noticed a lot of Gish's don't use armor, but rely entirely on Mage Armor, Luminous Armor, etc.

In previous editions and in the earlier years of 3.5, a gish would use Spellsword levels and wear armor. Since the printing of Complete Mage and the benefits of combining Abjurant Champion with Greater Luminous Armor, it takes far less effort for a far greater benefit to use spells for AC over investing in being able to cast while wearing armor. The traditional gish does wear armor, but the modern gish does not.