Paladins: Who can they not worship?

[Xuldarinar]

As the title. What deities, and similar entities, could a paladin absolutely -not- follow under any justification? Are there any that are impossible, outside of PFS?

[Milo v3]

You could worship any non-evil god as a paladin. Though, in some settings you might be able to worship an evil aligned good if none of their religious practices involve evil acts, but the Code prohibits associating with evil.

Though, if you use unchained's alignment removal thing, they could worship any god.

[goto124]

Paladins are LG no matter who they worship, did I get that right?

What's with the worship anyway? How do 3.5e Paladins work? What Codes do they have, and where in the book are the Codes written?

[Milo v3]

Paladins are LG no matter who they worship, did I get that right?

What's with the worship anyway? How do 3.5e Paladins work? What Codes do they have, and where in the book are the Codes written?

Paladins don't need to worship and they get their power from GOOD rather than Gods. The code is the Code of Conduct in the paladin class entry. As far as I'm aware, there is only one Code of Conduct.

This is not true in some settings though. For example, paladins in golarion must worship a good deity iirc (though for a while there was a paladin of asmodeus that was canon, I think they were retconned out of existence).

[Ssalarn]

Paladins don't need to worship and they get their power from GOOD rather than Gods. The code is the Code of Conduct in the paladin class entry. As far as I'm aware, there is only one Code of Conduct.

This is not true in some settings though. For example, paladins in golarion must worship a good deity iirc (though for a while there was a paladin of asmodeus that was canon, I think they were retconned out of existence).

Yeah, there were two separate books detailing how paladins of Asmodeus could come to be. One involves the paladin's belief in Asmodeus not really including or being aware of the evil side of Asmodeus, the other involves worshipping Asmodeus as a single part of a larger lawful pantheon.

I think the big things with a paladin would be that he couldn't knowingly worship a deity who encourages chaos or for whom obeisance includes acts that are violations of the paladin's code. So Lamashtu in Golarion or Lolth in the Forgotten Realms would be out, but a deity like Asmodeus who has an active PR department and is often found openly worshipped in some societies for his role as (essentially) a divine lawyer and judge could easily have paladins drawn to his worship. I think as a general rule of thumb, if it's Chaotic Evil, it's probably too much of a stretch to make it work. If it shares an alignment component with the Paladin, there may be some room for it to make sense.

[Madbranch]

As far as I know, you have to be within 1 step of alignment from the deity you worship as a paladin/cleric. Since paladins are always LG, you can only worship deitys with LG, NG and LN alignments.

[Gray Mage]

As far as I know, you have to be within 1 step of alignment from the deity you worship as a paladin/cleric. Since paladins are always LG, you can only worship deitys with LG, NG and LN alignments.

This is true about clerics, but paladins don't have such a restriction, if I remember. Still, I'd find odd for a paladin to worship an Evil or Chaotic Deity.

Edit: I'd say its a good guideline, though.

[BWR]

Paladins don't need to worship and they get their power from GOOD rather than Gods. ).

People keep saying this but it's wrong. Paladins in PF "embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve." and "as a reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed [...]". Unless I'm spectacularly bad at reading that intro but, there is nothing saying that PF pallies can get by on righteousness alone, though I personally allow it. In 3.5, paladins, like clerics, do not need to worship gods to gain powers, they can get by on dedication to an ideal alone. It does not follow, either by language or intention, that gods are irrelevant to all paladins, mechanically.

[Milo v3]

People keep saying this but it's wrong. Paladins in PF "embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve." and "as a reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed [...]". Unless I'm spectacularly bad at reading that intro but, there is nothing saying that PF pallies can get by on righteousness alone, though I personally allow it. In 3.5, paladins, like clerics, do not need to worship gods to gain powers, they can get by on dedication to an ideal alone. It does not follow, either by language or intention, that gods are irrelevant to all paladins, mechanically.

Whoever wrote the flavour text of paladin was incorrect. Look at the mechanics, nothing has it require them to worship anything unlike a cleric (though clerics can serve a cause instead of a deity). It is not part of any requirements of the class to worship a deity, which did get me rather annoyed when two abilities mention the paladin's god.

Personally, I blame James Jacob's and his damn settings flavour decisions.

[Ssalarn]

Whoever wrote the flavour text of paladin was incorrect. Look at the mechanics, nothing has it require them to worship anything unlike a cleric (though clerics can serve a cause instead of a deity). It is not part of any requirements of the class to worship a deity, which did get me rather annoyed when two abilities mention the paladin's god.

Personally, I blame James Jacob's and his damn settings flavour decisions.
There's also this from the Magic section of the CRB : "Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells, and the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. " Emphasis added.

It's specifically noted that paladins don't get their magic from deities like clerics do, and they don't have any alignment restrictions on who they can worship like clerics do. Which makes sense really; since paladins are empowered by pure divine forces instead of being granted spells from a deity, a paladin's choice of deity is only slightly more important than a fighter's.

[BWR]

Whoever wrote the flavour text of paladin was incorrect. Look at the mechanics, nothing has it require them to worship anything unlike a cleric (though clerics can serve a cause instead of a deity). It is not part of any requirements of the class to worship a deity, which did get me rather annoyed when two abilities mention the paladin's god.


I don't see how not mentioning gods in the mechanics matters. Is there any point where we need clarification of differences between god and godless paladins? If not (and I can't think of any) there is no need to mention gods in the mechanics. If they have already stated that paladins worship gods, they don't need to hammer it home repeatedly, do they?

[Milo v3]

I don't see how not mentioning gods in the mechanics matters. Is there any point where we need clarification of differences between god and godless paladins? If not (and I can't think of any) there is no need to mention gods in the mechanics. If they have already stated that paladins worship gods, they don't need to hammer it home repeatedly, do they?

Because there is no mechanic linking gods to paladins. It's an error in the flavour-text. This is further highlighted by the passage Sslarn has posted.

[Xuldarinar]

Though I posed this question myself, personally I see no real limitation.


Worship in of itself is neither a good nor evil act. Now, given the existence of Paladins of Asmodeus, we know there are ways they may associate with evil. Not all paladins who worship him are ignorant of his nature, and in fact exist in part to demonstrate one can serve him and still be a good person.

From there, I see no direct problem should a paladin serve another LE deity/entity, or even one who is CN, NE, or even CE. Granted there would be conflicts, but i am certain some could rationalize something, though if only through heterodoxy or heresy.




If you flip things, I believe an antipaladin could worship any deity, though following good ones (especially LG ones) may present stronger issues as good doesn't have as great a habit of trying to kill off the followers of their similarly aligned competitors. A paladin could at least exist as an unusually benevolent weapon of evil against evil, not falling because it benefits their master they maintain their powers (though 3.5, HoH actually mentions demon lords supporting a paladin's powers when he would otherwise fall, so.. maybe) and going to there anyways because their soul's fate may be to their patron's domain.

[BWR]

1. Specific trumps general. The description of the paladin is more specific than a part earlier in the CRB.
2. Divine Bond. "Upon reaching 5th level, the paladin forms a divine bond with her god."
Holy Champion: "At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god."

[Killer Angel]

As far as I know, you have to be within 1 step of alignment from the deity you worship as a paladin/cleric. Since paladins are always LG, you can only worship deitys with LG, NG and LN alignments.

Not if you pick one of the Variant Character Classes. They're in the srd, so it's almost like Core.

[Milo v3]

1. Specific trumps general. The description of the paladin is more specific than a part earlier in the CRB.
2. Divine Bond. "Upon reaching 5th level, the paladin forms a divine bond with her god."
Holy Champion: "At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god."

Soooo, what happens when you play an atheist paladin? None of the class states you need to worship a god like clerics or inquisitors or warpriests.

Clerics have alignment restrictions of "Alignment: A cleric's alignment must be within one step of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis (see Additional Rules)." and a religious code of conduct in "A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description)." and has specific rules for if you don't worship a deity "If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval)".

Inquisitors similiarly also have "Alignment: An inquisitor's alignment must be within one step of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis.", and "With the GM's approval, an inquisitor can be devoted to an ideal instead of a deity, selecting one domain to represent her personal inclination and abilities."

Warpriest:
"Alignment: A warpriest's alignment must be within one step of his deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis."
"If a warpriest isn't devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two blessings to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities, subject to GM approval."
"Ex-Warpriests
A warpriest who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for his armor, shield, weapon proficiencies, and bonus feats. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a warpriest of that god until he atones for his deeds (see the atonement spell)."

Paladin doesn't have these things. It Doesn't get it's power from gods, mechanically. The written fluff is wrong, and probably written by someone who was thinking with a golarion mind-set.

[BWR]

Soooo, what happens when you play an atheist paladin?

Guess you have to worship a god to be a paladin in PF. Or maybe they just don't get Dvine Bond or Holy Champion.

Anyway, the idea that gods are entirely irrelevant to paladins is wrong; some paladins get their powers from gods, some don't. The various rule books throughout the ages have just been better or worse at conveying this information.

[Milo v3]

Guess you have to worship a god to be a paladin in PF.

But that isn't true....

[BWR]

But that isn't true....

If PF wanted paladins to require gods they've done a better job of putting that idea forward than the belief that paladins don't need gods. Whatever you want to do in your games is another matter.

[mystic1110]

A DM once introduced to us a character whom belong to a group of paladins called The Adversary. The Adversary were Paladins who worshiped a CE god of Mayhem and Destruction. The idea was that the god wanted an opponent and specifically empowered such a group to combat himself. The Paladins knew all this.

Additionally part of the god's rituals required the spilling of blood - so the Paladins got around this by continually hunting for evil beings to kill. There was no fancy evil ritual involved: just that blood must be spilled.

not sure if they would have still been Paladins in any other campaign - but it was a neat concept. The DM had them all be a little crazy from the knowledge that they do good in the world only because an evil god wanted the entertainment, and that by using their powers they indirectly sanction ritual sacrifice elsewhere.

[Milo v3]

If PF wanted paladins to require gods they've done a better job of putting that idea forward than the belief that paladins don't need gods. Whatever you want to do in your games is another matter.

There still isn't any rules text that puts forward that paladins need to worship gods. Every bit of evidence you gave was flavour-text that was likely incorrectly written up by James Jacobs, since that's how it works In His Games.

[BWR]

There still isn't any rules text that puts forward that paladins need to worship gods. Every bit of evidence you gave was flavour-text that was likely incorrectly written up by James Jacobs, since that's how it works In His Games.

Except those bits about getting certain abilities from her god, even when there is no need to point that out. The cleric and druid don't bring up god vs godless except when there is a relevant mechanical difference. Why are you so insistent on paladins being divorced from gods when a) they aren't by the intention of PF design, and b) they aren't in most (all?) previous editions of D&D? Why are you so insistent on ignoring class description or saying they got it wrong?
You are perfectly welcome to do so in your games but claiming the designers are wrong because you don't want them to be right seems a bit odd.

[Milo v3]

Except those bits about getting certain abilities from her god, even when there is no need to point that out.
Those bits are flavour text, not mechanics.


The cleric and druid don't bring up god vs godless except when there is a relevant mechanical difference. Why are you so insistent on paladins being divorced from gods when a) they aren't by the intention of PF design, and b) they aren't in most (all?) previous editions of D&D? Why are you so insistent on ignoring class description or saying they got it wrong?

A) They aren't by the intention of at least 1 PF designer, not necessarily all of PF
B) They didn't even have a link to deities in 3.5e.... :smallsigh:


You are perfectly welcome to do so in your games but claiming the designers are wrong because you don't want them to be right seems a bit odd.
Except designers have said that paladins don't need to worship gods (except when discussing golarion).

Edit: Actually, a quick search found this quote by James Jacobs implying even in golarion you might not need to serve a god as a paladin:


Of the core 20 deities in Golarion, the following have paladins serving them (note that this is NOT the same as saying all paladins serve deities).They're listed in the order of who has the most paladins and who has the least paladins.

1: Iomedae
2: Erastil
3: Torag
4: Sarenrae
5: Abadar
6: Shelyn
7: Irori

Edit: Even better one:

only clerics MUST have a patron deity, since only clerics get their spells from a patron deity.

Other divine spellcasters CAN have patron deities, and in some cases (inquisitors and paladins) they USUALLY have patron deities, but that's not always the case.

Edit: Apparently there's even a specific archetype of paladin that Adds in Worshipping a God.

[Nibbens]

I don't have a link to the thread but someone once mentioned the Half-Orc paladin who worships Grummish. I'll explain the idea in short instead.

Question: Grummish is evil - how pally be good and worship evil at same time? etc etc.

Answer: If a person's grandfather is a racist. It doesn't mean that that person hates him and want to kill him. He reveres him as the head of his family, but when he starts going on his rants, the person offers the token head nods and tunes him out. Same thing with the Paladin of Grummish - he respects the sire of his race, and tolerates him, offers token prayers to him, but doesn't follow in his footsteps. Boom - Lawful Good Paladin of an Evil deity.

[Ssalarn]

1. Specific trumps general. The description of the paladin is more specific than a part earlier in the CRB.
2. Divine Bond. "Upon reaching 5th level, the paladin forms a divine bond with her god."
Holy Champion: "At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god."

It's actually later in the CRB, and I would say that the section specifically talking about where a paladin's magic comes from is more specific than some flavor text in a couple class feature entries, especially when the only person to indicate that paladins need gods (James Jacobs, the creative director and not part of the design team, specifically when talking about his world of Golarion), has specifically been on record as saying paladins don't actually need gods by the core rules.