Tier Mobility

[No brains]

One of the things I've learned about the tier system is that PrCs and other optimization tricks can give one's class upward mobility on the tier list. What I'm curious about is what classes have the most mobility in terms of how far they can push their tier. I know warlock is a good example of this as taking the chameleon PrC lets one get the most of its potential. Another I can think of is warmage getting a tier bump from rainbow servant by suddenly getting cleric spells. I don't know if CW samurai is savable at all.

There is a chance I'm thinking about this wrong and asking the wrong question. Maybe PrCs have tiers of their own or just add or subtract from the tier of the base class. If there is more data on that than what I'm asking for, referring me to that would be helpful too.

I'm also aware that one can probably totally trash their tier with awful choices and if there are any hilarious and egregious examples of that, I'd like to hear them. With what I hear about spell progression and caster levels I'm pretty sure there are some PrCs that are suicide for T1s.

[GilesTheCleric]

I think Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order and the A-Game Paladin probably push it the most.

Of course, if you just get full casting on any T6 class with feats+race, then that would also count (but does it?).

[FocusWolf413]

Sublime Chord boosts a bard from a mid-low tier 3 to a high tier 2.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sorcerer with the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick, or any arcane caster if you UMD it to cast spells from it that aren't on your class spell list.

Any spontaneous caster with Versatile Spellcaster and Magical Training. You get a spellbook from Magical Training that you've put a few 0-level spells into, and a few 0-level spell slots to prepare and cast them. Per the Rules Compendium this means you can add more spells to that spellbook the same way a Wizard does, and RAW those count as spells known. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, so two feats can potentially give any spontaneous caster access to the entire Wizard spell list.

[GilesTheCleric]

Sublime Chord boosts a bard from a mid-low tier 3 to a high tier 2.

It seems to me that breaking the T3 to T2 hump is probably the biggest tier movement. This is a good example, FocusWolf.

[AvatarVecna]

Human Paragon 3/Monk2/Ur-priest 2/Sacred Fist 10

This build takes you 17th level; what happens from there doesn't really matter. Essentially, you go from being a Human Paragon with a bunch of pretty odd skill choices to a Monk with a bunch of odd skill choices. At 5th lvl, you're hovering somwhere between T5 and T4, depending on how useful those Ur-Priest prereq skills are for the game you're playing. As soon as you go into Ur-Priest/Sacred Fist, you start getting divine casting at a ridiculously quick pace, as well as advancement of some Monk abilities; you also can use DMM cheese, if you so choose. You end up roughly even in casting terms with a standard cleric (you have less spells, but you start casting 9ths at the same time). This shoots you up to at least T2, and possibly even low T1 if you've really optimized your spell selection and remaining feats. Does that mean that Ur-priest generally improves a build by 2-3 tiers? No. Because you could just as easily slap Ur-Priest/Mystic Thuerge on the tail end of a straight Wizard build with slightly less odd skill choices. That's a solid T1 class that would be delaying it's casting by 1-2 levels to get an almost perfect Mystic Theurge build, both mechanically and thematically. I'd still argue it's a downgrade, though, due to the loss of those caster levels.

Some PrCs aren't going to be that complex and variable, of course; Incantatrix is stupidly, brokenly good on just about any build that qualifies for it; Mystic Theurge is a huge power boost to any build that qualifies for it (partially because the only builds that can qualify are relatively gimped). Similarly, Reaping Mauler is almost infamously bad, as is Dwarven Defender.

[Pluto!]

PrCs are a misleading metric. I know there have been efforts to categorize PrCs by tiers, but frankly they've been terrible, as they are completely reliant on often-faulty predictions of the builds they're referencing.

This is complicated even further by the fact that some classes are more build-warping than others. Something like Suel Arcanamach, Sublime Chord or Storm Sentry will provide character-defining abilities that minimize the importance of entry classes (it doesn't really matter whether you take Fighter, Ranger or Swashbuckler into Arcanamach, you'll be doing the same things each round), while other PrCs like Loremaster or Master of the Nine only serve to exaggerate their entry class's features (have bad casting before Loremaster? Well you still do. Have great casting? Well now it's even better).

I think Divine Minds and Truenamers are the most fluid in their categorizations - a low-level Truenamer works fine and does some cool stuff, but at high levels diverges from being unplayable with low optimization, to being versatile - if on the weak end of level-appropriate - with a lot of work; and a Divine Mind goes from essentially an Aristocrat at low levels to manifesting 6th level powers with access to things like Metamorphosis and pp-free standard action Astral Constructs.

I also want to say Paladins, but I suspect it's because they're a class I personally feel pretty confident optimizing and playing in higher-op environments, but which I think are treated somewhat hyperbolically in their characterization on these boards.

[Troacctid]

Prestige classes do have a tiering system of their own, yes.

Healer is pretty mobile. If you don't know what you're doing, you can easily get stuck in T4 or T5, but if you make use of Sanctified spells and play your companion right, you can make it up to T3 without much trouble.

Rangers are well known for going up a full tier once you add the wild shape variant. Similarly, Binders go from T3 up to T2 once you start binding Zceryll and getting unlimited Summon Monsters.

Any class with Use Magic Device as a class skill is also going to have a lot of potential to skyrocket in tier with proper magic item use. It's one of the foremost examples of Player > Build > Class in action. A Rogue piloted by a shrewd player who buys the right wands and scrolls can easily outperform a newbie Cleric.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Most of the T2s can get to T1/T0 with shenanigans related to spells and powers known. T3-5, and sometimes even T6, can imbalance a table with big damage numbers that look like a T2's trick.

[Fates]

The Wild Shape variant alone boosts Ranger from tier 5 to tier 3. Combine that with Mystic Ranger and SOAO and you're probably at least at a high tier 3- or a high tier 1 in e6.

[Troacctid]

The Wild Shape variant alone boosts Ranger from tier 5 to tier 3. Combine that with Mystic Ranger and SOAO and you're probably at least at a high tier 3- or a high tier 1 in e6.

The core Ranger is T4, not T5. Its spells (off a surprisingly decent list) and its plethora of skill points add enough versatility to bump it up above Fighters and Monks.

[GilesTheCleric]

Here's a table, because yay for tables! It's also sortable. Tell me if anything should be changed, or if I missed adding anything please?

Tier System for Prestige Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198) by Suzerain on BG.
JaronK's Tier System (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) by JaronK on BG.

Until bekeleven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19218343&postcount=23) has posted their list, I'll continue to update this one. PrCs will be left in, but no new ones will be added unless they're typical picks for a single base class.




Class
Base Tier
Max Tier
Delta
UMD?
Method
Notable PrC Method


Binder
3
2
1
n
Zceryll -- unlimited SM[X]



Ranger
4
3
1
n
UA Wild Shape Variant



Ranger 1-10
4
1
3
n
Mystic Ranger + Sword of the Arcane Order (wiz list)



Ranger 11-20
4
3
1
n
Mystic Ranger + Sword of the Arcane Order (wiz list)



Divine Mind








Truenamer
6
3
3
y
Truespeak check Op



Fighter
5
4
1
n
Dungeoncrasher



Paladin
5
3
2
n
Sword of the Arcane Order (wiz list)



[qualifying class]
6
1
5
n

Ur-Priest


[qualifying class]
6
3
3
n

Chamaeleon


[qualifying fixed-list class]
4
1
3
n

Rainbow Servant


Sorcerer
2
1
1
n
Ancestral Relic Runestaff (all spells known)



Any Spontaneous Caster
2
1
1
n
Versatile Spellcaster+Magical Training (wiz list) [GM-dependent, dubious]



Bard
3
2
1
y

Sublime Chord, Fochlucan Lyrist


Warlock
4
3
1
y
Gen Op
Chamaeleon


Rogue
4
3
1
y
UMD abuse



Warmage
4
1
3
n

Rainbow Servant (clr list)


Beguiler
3
1
2
n

Rainbow Servant (clr list)


Dread Necromancer
3
1
2
n

Rainbow Servant (clr list)


Healer
5
3
2
n
Sanctified Spells, Cohort



Monk
5
4
1
n
Invisible Fist ACF or 7th level Dark Moon Disciple sub lvl



Soulknife
5
3
2
n
gaining maneuvers, orthogonal manifesting from race + feats



Soulknife
5
2
3
n
gaining maneuvers, orthogonal manifesting from race + feats, and psychic chirurgery




zClass
zBase
zMax
zDelta
zUMD
zMethod
zPrC

[A_S]

I don't think Mystic Ranger + SotAO really makes Ranger Tier 2. I think it makes them Tier 1 from levels 1-10 (they prepare and cast spells off the Wizard list, with a better chassis and spell level access only one character level behind actual Wizards), and then they fall off and become Tier 3 when they stop getting new spell levels past level 10. At no point do they have the "my tricks are just as broken as Tier 1 tricks, but I can't pick new ones every morning" thing that's the hallmark of Tier 2 characters

[GilesTheCleric]

That's a good point. But, for the sake of sanity, we should probably not make things any more granular than one level split over 20 levels, I think.

[Feint's End]

Rainbow Servant rockets warmage from t4 to t1. Do that's a big boost.
Bard has been mentioned ... hmmm.

How about warmind for lots of lower tier martials? It is a very strong class and can boost most martials to low t3 if built correctly while at the same time improving their combat capabilities. I guess same goes for shadow sun ninja and monk.

[Troacctid]

And Warlock doesn't need prestige classes to be T3, it just needs smart invocation choices and a creative pilot.

Also I'm pretty sure the Versatile Spellcaster/Magical Training trick doesn't work. Scribing a spell into your spellbook doesn't necessarily add it to your spells known, and Versatile Spellcaster doesn't necessarily allow you to cast spells from a different class. It takes a pretty questionable reading if it works at all, and even then it's one of those literalist Amelia Bedelia interpretations that most DMs probably won't agree with.

[A_S]

Okay, taking a closer look, a few more things that stick out as odd about that list:

SotAO Paladin definitely isn't tier 2. Access to the Sorc/Wiz list doesn't get you high tier status if you're getting spell level access on the Paladin schedule. Level 2 Sorc/Wiz spells are great at character level 3; they're pretty underwhelming at character level 8.
Rainbow Warsnake-style builds like the one you mention for Warmage are definitely tier 1. Prepared casting is only considered to be "better" than spontaneous casting because spontaneous casters have limited spells known. Casting spontaneously off the entire spell list of a tier 1 caster class is the best of both worlds. Also, should be listed for Beguiler and Dread Necromancer too.
Does using Monk to qualify for Ur-Priest really say anything about the tier mobility of the Monk class? Like, yeah, you can qualify for Ur-Priest using Monk, but it doesn't really turn you into a tier 1 Monk, it just turns you into a Cleric. That doesn't really seem like what people mean whey they say "tier mobility" to me. Sublime Chord at least is a class specifically designed to be entered via Bard, so it makes a bit more sense.
You don't seem to have finished the Truenamer entry, but if you trust Zaq (and I do) they go from tier 6 to tier 3-4 or so, with the method entry being something like "getting your Truespeak check really, really high."

[GilesTheCleric]

Thank you, A_S. I might leave in the Ur-Priest method as a generic example of how to take [insert class here] to T1/T2.

Anything I've left blank either wasn't explicitly stated by the poster or I didn't feel confident enough to fill in with my own knowledge.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, standalone prestige classes don't really say anything about the tier mobility of the base class--anyone can take Ur-Priest to become T1, or Chameleon to become T3, etc. Those are cases where the prestige classes themselves just have a separate tier rating of their own.

That said, Monks can definitely get to T4 with the right ACFs. Invisible Fist is of course the most notable one, and the 7th level Dark Moon Disciple substitution level is a doozy. Either one of the two should bump you up a tier. (I probably wouldn't take both, though. They're a bit redundant.)

[GilesTheCleric]

For the sake of completion, I think including tier-adjusting PrCs is handy. If there's enough of them that it matters, I can split them to a second table.

Rainbow Servant can probably take any fixed-list caster to T1 as well; are all fixed-lists T4 and above?

[bekeleven]

Any class can be tier 0 because any class can be taken by a kobold with cross-class ranks in knowledge skills.

Any class can be tier 6 because any class can be played by a guy whose sole contribution to the game is evil monologuing during combat (Incidentally, I played with this guy once, he was a wizard).

I'll assume you're asking about tier mobility in good faith: That is, how well vs. how poorly a build can be relatively optimized if the player is legitimately trying to build a powerful, but not gamebreaking, character.

To answer that I'll fall back to my 3-part tier list, where I rank every class by its Top PO Tier (relative power if I build one and am told to "optimize"), its standard PO (What I tend to build if I make one for a PbP game on these boards), and its Newbie Op (How I would build one in 2003).

A Wilder has the highest tier variance in my rating system. It's tier 2 in TO because it has access to 9s. It's Tier 3 generally becasue you can take extra knowledge and be good at a ton of things but generally won't break the game in half. And if I built one in 2003, it would have a bunch of crappy damage spells and I would take endurance and diehard or something as my feats, making it tier 5. The wilder has a 3-tier variance.

Many classes have a 2-tier variance; at least 8. First is the Artificer (1-1-3), who requires a lot of spell knowledge to make use of his abilities, but is pretty effective by accident if he lacks that. In an optimized party, the artificer is as effective as his druid, wizard, cleric, etc. buddies. In a less-optimized party, the Artificer is still better than them; He's grown better compared to a binder Binder (2-3-3), has only a few tricks that keep him tier 2 at the highest end of PO. In a party of all noobs, the artificer is worse than a druid (1-1-1) or wizard (1-1-2), and falls equal to the binder. Neither has a high floor, although they're hardly the worst.

A Wu Jen (1-2-3) fails gracefully. It can be optimized to break the game just like a druid or wizard, but is harder to keep there as broken elements are removed. With low system mastery, a noob's Wu Jen is a tier worse than a noob's wizard.

Many classes have earth-shattering power, which at lower ends falls to "have power." The classes Psion, Sorcerer, and Favored Soul all have the Tier curve (2-2-4). The Psychic Warrior is similar but less focused, falling from generally competent to generally incompetent on the low end (3-3-5).

Other classes go from "Have power" to "Have." Those classes are the Hexblade and Truenamer, which share the curve (4-5-6). A noob's truenamer is the least effective member of nearly any party, but a highly optimized truenamer can keep up with a similarly optimized Dragonfire Adept, Marshal, Adept, Barbarian, etc.

Those are the classes with the highest tier variance: First is the Wilder, which moves 3 tiers. Then the Wu Jen, Artificer, Psion (without Psychic Chirurgery), Sprcerer, Favored Soul, PsyWar, Hexblade, and Truenamer all move 2 tiers depending on optimization. Of the remaining classes, the slight majority move 1 tier and the rest move 0.

Obviously, this system does NOT compare cross optimizations. The Druid is the only class stable at tier 1, because it breaks the game at every Op level. This does NOT mean that a newb's druid can compete in a high TO game. Newbie op tier 1 is most gamebreaking with a similarly new party. Comparing cross-optimization is an NP-complete problem and boy do I not want to start it.

I really should make a thread about my 3-level tier system, just so I can link it in the future. I keep (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19131949&postcount=22) making (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19140773&postcount=34) long (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18044700&postcount=32) posts about it.

[GilesTheCleric]

Bekeleven, do you have a link to a posted version? If so, I don't need to keep updating that table.

And yes, I think we're mostly trying to avoid the player > build > class, and stick to build > class.

[bekeleven]

Bekeleven, do you have a link to a posted version? If so, I don't need to keep updating that table.I have... a spreadsheet?

I'll try to write it up and post it soonish. A day or three. Part of the problem is that I'm actually not complete: I have yet to make newbie-op ratings on 7 classes, and a standard PO rating on one class:

Erudite (Non-StP) (1-2-?)
Shaman (3-3-?)
Shadowcaster (4-4-?)
OA Samurai (5-5-?)
Rokugan Ninja (5-5-?)
Divine Mind (5-5-?)
Sohei (5-?-?)

The list does, however, catalog the remaining 62 base classes* reasonably well. Not everyone would agree with my ratings, but everyone would agree I'm within 1 point, and I can at least make arguments for my positions.

I've never seen a single one of these classes played, and never made the time to go back, read them carefully, and try to build them.

Incidentally, I'd forgotten about the A-game paladin. I guess I have to decide if I want to move Paladin's Top PO rating from 4 to 3.

*This number is inflated; I have 2 entries each for the CW Samurai (Imperious Command), Expert (Iaijutsu Focus), Fighter (Dungeoncrasher), Healer (Sanctified Spells), Ranger (Wild Shape), Binder (Online Vestiges), and Erudite (StP, as I mentioned above). Thus the total number of classes I have complete ratings for is 55.

[GilesTheCleric]

Your spreadsheet program might have a formatted export option that could make it easier to post. Otherwise, I think Google Docs accepts direct c+p of cells.

Also, spreadsheets. I approve.

Edit: If your program supports prefixing/appending characters to cells, you could re-calculate each cell, but then maths in the gitp table tags.

[bekeleven]

I know I can get it off easy enough, I just wouldn't want to post it without a writeup, and ideally without finishing those 7 classes.

[GilesTheCleric]

So long as cleric ends up being 1-1-1 [/s], I'm looking forward to it!

[Zordran]

How does Wildshape Ranger stack up against Master of Many Forms?

[Troacctid]

I'm reasonably sure Master of Many forms is at least T2. There are some crazy shenanigans you can pull, like, black puddings and whatnot. I don't know the class well enough to know if it hits T1, though.

[bekeleven]

So long as cleric ends up being 1-1-1 [/s], I'm looking forward to it!

In 2003 my best attempt to optimize my cleric was a healbot. I think I may have cast a few fire spells, but never any self-buffs. Had I cast divine power once or twice I probably would've seen its value and started playing differently, but I still wouldn't have had a synergistic build.

1-1-2. Druid (1-1-1) is the only class that I think remains capable of solving any encounter at newbie op.

Master of Many Forms is largely tier 3 but tier 2 with high system mastery. If I wanted to grade it, it would be 2-3-3. However, I didn't include any prestige classes, because frankly 70 classes was enough.

MoMF has its share of TO tricks, like the Shaedling and the Myconid Sovereign, which effectively give you access to unlimited minions and unlimited wealth. The Gas Spore is a PO way of generating wealth but it's a lot slower. There's also Dusk Giant, Assume Supernatural Ability tricks, and a few others. I have another spreadsheet with form tiers I use for playing MoMF characters, but it's not in any way presentable.

[Marlowe]

PrCs are a misleading metric. I know there have been efforts to categorize PrCs by tiers, but frankly they've been terrible, as they are completely reliant on often-faulty predictions of the builds they're referencing.


I remember I was building a Mini-boss using a PrC, and looked up a Tier system for PrCs to see how it was rated. Just out of curiousity.

It was listed as "Tier -1 (w/o capstone abuse)".

The PrC in question didn't actually have a capstone.

[ben-zayb]

Don't all theurges qualify, from the perspective of the lower tier side? Jade Phoenix Mage, Eldritch Theurge/Disciple, Daggerspell Shaper/Mage, Soulcaster/-manifester, Anima Mage/Priest, Noctumancer, Mystic Theurge, Fochlucan Lyrist, Spellwarp Sniper / Arcane Trickster / Unseen Seer, and those monk theurge classes whose names escape me

Shadowcraft Mage also might, depending on entry

I'd also point out that many fast-progression spellcasting PrCs with no casting prereqs apply, not just Ur-Priest and Chameleon

EDIT: Forgot to add Illithid Savant, Fiend of Possession, and Mage of the Arcane Order. Oh, and Archmage on a Wu Jen, for an army of clones with Wish SLA.

[nedz]

Rainbow Servant on a fixed list caster takes you above T1
Casting spontaneously from the whole Cleric list > Preparing spells from the whole Cleric list
Also you get your original list too, but that's besides the point.

Also what about templates such as Half-Fey (there are others) which give you a wide selection of SLAs. This template alone is low T3 and can be added to almost any low tier class (sorry Monk - alignment) - though at high levels enchantments are less useful.

[Petrocorus]

I don't think we should include the Ur-Priest. The Ur-Priest on his own push you into T1 despite the lack of spells / day. Whatever is your base classes as long you have the Wis.
An Ur-Priest build is focused on the Ur-Priest casting and your base classes' purpose is to qualify for it and take the best advantage of it. It says nothing about the tier mobility of base classes in actuality.


Here's a table, because yay for tables! It's also sortable. Tell me if anything should be changed, or if I missed adding anything please?

Awesome work.
What do you mean by "gen op" about the Warlock?


Your spreadsheet program might have a formatted export option that could make it easier to post. Otherwise, I think Google Docs accepts direct c+p of cells.

Also, spreadsheets. I approve.

Edit: If your program supports prefixing/appending characters to cells, you could re-calculate each cell, but then maths in the gitp table tags.

There are macros for excel for converting spreadsheet into BBC table. Easily findable on the webz.


Rainbow Servant on a fixed list caster takes you above T1
Casting spontaneously from the whole Cleric list > Preparing spells from the whole Cleric list
Also you get your original list too, but that's besides the point.

It's not completely beside the point if your original list has the things that the Cleric list lacks. That make it a even more powerful, even if the investment is high. Without shenanigan, you'll get it at lvl 16.

[jiriku]

It's all been done before, although the work was unfinished. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198)

[bekeleven]

It's all been done before, although the work was unfinished. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198)

I remember I was building a Mini-boss using a PrC, and looked up a Tier system for PrCs to see how it was rated. Just out of curiousity.

It was listed as "Tier -1 (w/o capstone abuse)".

The PrC in question didn't actually have a capstone.
You've found it. Scarlet Corsair. 10th level: Sneak Attack +3D6.

[mabriss lethe]

Soulknife is actually fairly mobile. An out of the box soulknife is strictly T5 material, but a build using ACFs or items to gain martial maneuver access with orthogonal manifesting from race or feats, and when tricked out with the equipment to overclock a mindblade can push into T3 range. (T2, even, if you can find someone to perform psychic chirurgery on you to graft on the right powers.)

[Telonius]

There are some Tier Mobility tricks that are race-specific. Warshaper, for example, has the potential to bump up some of the lower-tier martial classes, but only if the person is playing a Changeling.

[AvatarVecna]

I don't think we should include the Ur-Priest. The Ur-Priest on his own push you into T1 despite the lack of spells / day. Whatever is your base classes as long you have the Wis.

I made a post specifically about the Ur-Priest PrC; I'm gonna have to highlight a couple points.

1) Ur-priest gives slightlyslightly quicker access to spells above lvl 5, but only if entered as quickly as possible (which isn't the easiest thing unless you entered from straight cleric, which is the only class that has no real mechanical reason to enter Ur-Priest).

2) It gets less spells per day than a straight cleric (over half, but not by much).

3) DMM cheese is possible if you take at least 2 levels.

Overall, the effect Ur-Priest has on a build depends a lot on the entry class. If you entered from a standard T1 caster (CoDzilla, God Wizard, etc), this is probably actually a downgrade, but only a slight one. For just about any other class, it's upgrades them to high T2, low T1.

Personally, one of my favorite combo is as follows:

Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge +5/Ultimate Magus 4. You have good skills, good saves, and tons of great casting throughout your career.

I love entering Ur-Priest from Savage Bard. personal preference, nothing more.

[GilesTheCleric]

Soulknife is actually fairly mobile. An out of the box soulknife is strictly T5 material, but a build using ACFs or items to gain martial maneuver access with orthogonal manifesting from race or feats, and when tricked out with the equipment to overclock a mindblade can push into T3 range. (T2, even, if you can find someone to perform psychic chirurgery on you to graft on the right powers.)

Are there any more specifics that I could summarize into the chart? Thank you for mentioning that even the oft-ridiculed soulknife can be made into something special.


I don't think we should include the Ur-Priest. The Ur-Priest on his own push you into T1 despite the lack of spells / day. Whatever is your base classes as long you have the Wis.
An Ur-Priest build is focused on the Ur-Priest casting and your base classes' purpose is to qualify for it and take the best advantage of it. It says nothing about the tier mobility of base classes in actuality.
Given that we now have a link to an extensive PrC list, removing PrCs that can affect any class seems like a better idea. I think it's still worthwhile to mention notable PrCs for base classes, though.


Awesome work.
What do you mean by "gen op" about the Warlock? Thank you! Gen Op is general optimization. Someone further up in the thread stated that's what it took to bump it up a tier (someone else said Chamaeleon, which I then made its own entry).


There are macros for excel for converting spreadsheet into BBC table. Easily findable on the webz.Hmn, I'll have to look for those, too. I'm so used to not having access to macros/microsoft VB (I primarily use OSX) that I didn't even think to look for such a thing.


There are some Tier Mobility tricks that are race-specific. Warshaper, for example, has the potential to bump up some of the lower-tier martial classes, but only if the person is playing a Changeling.

Ooh, races are an important point, too. Warshaper + Changeling is a unique case, correct? Since we've got a PrC list already, does the changeling bump any base classes directly, perhaps Shifter or something?

[AvatarVecna]

Cancer Mage is another one where YMMV. Standard caster? Whatever. Standard melee? Awesome Str boost! Hulking Hurler? Time to throw the Earth out of orbit. Illumian caster? You win at everything pretty much automatically. That infinite Strength cheese can be weird depending on how it's applied, but other than that, the PrC is pretty standard.

[Troacctid]

Cancer Mage is another one where YMMV. Standard caster? Whatever. Standard melee? Awesome Str boost! Hulking Hurler? Time to throw the Earth out of orbit. Illumian caster? You win at everything pretty much automatically. That infinite Strength cheese can be weird depending on how it's applied, but other than that, the PrC is pretty standard.

People cite this all the time, but it's not true. Cancer Mage doesn't do any of that. It just makes you immune to the negative effects of Festering Anger...which is just 1d3 Con damage. Literally anyone can take a single feat to eliminate that. Heck, there are multiple feats you could choose from to accomplish the same result. Or, better, spend a little bit of gp on a magic item and you can save yourself a feat slot.

Festering Anger is the TO trick. Cancer Mage is just one way of mitigating the side effects, and it's not even an especially good way, either.

[AvatarVecna]

People cite this all the time, but it's not true. Cancer Mage doesn't do any of that. It just makes you immune to the negative effects of Festering Anger...which is just 1d3 Con damage. Literally anyone can take a single feat to eliminate that. Heck, there are multiple feats you could choose from to accomplish the same result. Or, better, spend a little bit of gp on a magic item and you can save yourself a feat slot.

Festering Anger is the TO trick. Cancer Mage is just one way of mitigating the side effects, and it's not even an especially good way, either.

Fair enough.

[Marlowe]

You've found it. Scarlet Corsair. 10th level: Sneak Attack +3D6.

You are of course correct but; Sneak attack +3d6 is a Capstone? How do you abuse--

Oh now I've got it. It's written so the sneak attack progression is cumulative rather than overlapping, right? And playing it that way is abusive? Because a total of 6d6 extra damage dice that you get situationally and against some enemies gained over 10 levels is really overpowered in this game where Priests summon angels and wizards stop time?

Seriously, thanks, I needed someone to tell me that yes, that's actually what was meant.

[GilesTheCleric]

Does it really give stacking SA? The text says: "the damage dealt increases to 2d6 at 6th and 3d6 at 10th". I don't typically seek out mis-worded things, so I might be wrong.

Also, Marlowe, your PM inbox is full.

[Marlowe]

Text trumps table, so you're correct. And your reading is what I'd assumed was correct anyway.

I was just confused for ages about what the "capstone" was and how to "abuse" it.

Sorting out inbox.

[Petrocorus]

I made a post specifically about the Ur-Priest PrC; I'm gonna have to highlight a couple points.
.....
Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge +5/Ultimate Magus 4. You have good skills, good saves, and tons of great casting throughout your career.

I love entering Ur-Priest from Savage Bard. personal preference, nothing more.
I've seen your builds and they are goods, but...



Given that we now have a link to an extensive PrC list, removing PrCs that can affect any class seems like a better idea. I think it's still worthwhile to mention notable PrCs for base classes, though.

... my point is that the Ur-Priest is very good and is T1 whatever is the entry class. If you enter with a Wizard or a Savage Bard and go into theurge, it's even better of course, but you could do Commoner 9/ Ur-Priest 10 and still be T1 at lvl 19. That's says nothing about the tier mobility of Commoner, but only something about the Ur-Priest.
So, i think that yes, we should not take it into account to evaluate the tier mobility of any base class.



Hmn, I'll have to look for those, too. I'm so used to not having access to macros/microsoft VB (I primarily use OSX) that I didn't even think to look for such a thing.

IIRC, i just googled "Excel to BBC" or something like this and found what i needed in 10 - 15 minutes. But of course, i don't use MacOS X, but Windows, so i don't know if that will work for you. I found an empty excel worksheet with the macro already included and some handbook.


You are of course correct but; Sneak attack +3d6 is a Capstone? How do you abuse--
Seriously, thanks, I needed someone to tell me that yes, that's actually what was meant.
I don't know, but they may be speaking of the level 9 ability to shaken opponents with sacrificing 2D6 of SA damage. I don't really know how this can be overpowered, though.

[GilesTheCleric]

I agree, Petrocorus. I'll have to get my google on next time I need to convert my sheets to BBC; thank you for finding that it's possible!

In terms of the scarlet corsair, it could have just been a typo, or perhaps part of a fear-stacking build. The 5th level gives an intimidate check to 30' fear AoE, so with my (minimal) knowledge of fear op, I'd say that's not terrible given that skills are easy to raise. Sure, it's language-dependent mind-affecting, but I think most fear is. The analyser might have also just only checked the table and not the text while in a hurry.

[Petrocorus]

I agree, Petrocorus. I'll have to get my google on next time I need to convert my sheets to BBC; thank you for finding that it's possible!


Found it, the file i use is called "Excel-BBC.xlsm".

[GilesTheCleric]

Thank you very much! I would have to migrate my sheets to win first (OSX doesn't support microsoft VB, which is what macros are written in), but that should do the trick.

[darksolitaire]

Ooh, races are an important point, too. Warshaper + Changeling is a unique case, correct?

Shifter has shapechanger subtype too :smalltongue: other then that, you usually need a template with +2 level adjustment to get access to Warshaper as a fighter-type, so not optimal.

[Pluto!]

The Scarlet Corsair thing is probably talking about the no-save level 9 fear ability, which may not be exactly what's usually meant by "capstone", but which fills the same basic role.

(3 hits renders a target panicked, no save, which seems like exactly the sort of ability that would be discussed that way)

[Troacctid]

Shifter has shapechanger subtype too :smalltongue: other then that, you usually need a template with +2 level adjustment to get access to Warshaper as a fighter-type, so not optimal.

Shifters are not so great for Warshaper, since the class abilities only work while shifted, and for a shifter, you won't be shifted for long.