[Unchained] VMC Builds for Fluff and Crunch

[Molosse]

So with the release of the book for all of us non-subscribers the release of the VMC's along with the the classes has given a decent few more options for fluffy/crunchy builds.

Personal favorites so far:

[U]Bardic Cavalier - Grabbing the Bard VMC for a Cavalier let's me roll with that Ivo Taileffer build I've always wanted without dipping and PrC shenanigans. Honestly you can argue that a VMC'd Cavalier is downright superior to a Cav/(Bard/Sensei/Exemplar/Cleric) what with the fully scaling Mount, Banner, Challenge, BaB, Greater(Master) Tactician and Order abilities along with similar scaling for the Bardic Performance.

Knightly Crusader - Grabbing the Cavalier VMC for a Crusader Cleric for example let's you grab the full 10D6 Channel at level 12 if you take the Order of the Star. Makes for a great Holy Vindicator with Challenge, Channeling Force and Vindicators Shield really helping the damage and defensive potential.

Pitfighter - Gladiator/Two-Weapon Fighter with a Barbarian VMC not only grants you access to the Pitfighter PrC it also works damn well together with rage removing the need for a pair of Agile weapons so you can throw a bit into Cha and the like and really work a non-existent crowd with Performing Combatant.

Counterfeit Mage Rogue - Rogue, Minor/Major Magic Rogue talents, Wizard VMC, Counterfeit Mage archetype along with the new Skill Mastery feat into UMD is just all sorts of fluffy and, with the right choices, perhaps effective?

[U]Bloodwitch (Witch + VMC Sorcerer) - gets you bloodline powers (the first 3) without needing Cha. This cuts down severely on the useful bloodlines since many of them want you to have high Cha, but for the few that don't care, this is a better option than the Eldritch Heritage line and gives you some interesting abilities. Good bloodlines for this include: Aquatic, Destined, Impossible, Martyred, Nanite, Orc, Pestilence and Protean. (This combination works on other non-Cha classes; Cha classes are possibly better off with the Eldritch Heritage line.)

Runesmith (Fighter + VMC Wizard) - this one is very useful for crafting-focused fighters. For this you want Arcane Builder or Golem Constructor, and of course Master Craftsman.

[U]Sneaky Bomber (Underground Chemist - VMC Alchemist) - Do you like Bombs? Do you like more Bombs? Do you like Sneak Attack Damage off Bombs? Do you like coating Sneak Attack'd Bombs in Poison? Awesome, enjoy away.

Untiring Rage (Barbarian - VMC Oracle) - Grabbing, again, the Oracle VMC unto a Lame Curse for a Barbarian let's you, at level 10, ignore the issues normally found within Rage-Cycling. You'll also more than make up for your bad leg with both Fast Movement and ignoring movement penalties in armour at level 11.

Knightly Hospitaler - Going back again to the Order of the Star, it states that: "The cavalier adds 1/2 his cavalier level to any levels of paladin or cleric he might possess for the purposes of determining the effects of channel energy or lay on hands." Normally if one was to split for a Cavalier/Paladin you'd simply gain the Paladins somewhat weakened and limited Channel Energy but, by grabbing Hospitaler, you manage to scale both Class Features at an accelerated rate while making replacing the slower progression of Smite Evil with the Challenge ability from the Cavalier VMC which, when mixed with Chain Challenge, will let you rip through a specific encounter a day.

Knightly Vindicator - Take all of the above and jump into Holy Vindicator to not only maintain a decent scaling on Lay on Hands (Order of the Star) but the increased scaling on Channel Energy for the H.Vindicators class abilities. All it takes then is you grabbing the Bracers of the Merciful Knight to gain, depending on how it interacts with Order of the Star, a +4/6 level equivalency to Lay on Hands for both effect and frequency, finishing it up with Glorious Charge and your set to rock away.

Spellsinger - A Maestro Sorcerer (VMC Bard) or a Bard (VMC Maestro Sorcerer) both serve as thematic and effective enchantment and buffing based Cha builds with only a little work whilst making use of the Sorcerer's overall lack of need regarding Feats.

Fires of Faith - Paladin/VMCBarbarian, "PRAY, KILL, CLEANSE"

Finally the new Stamina system is damn cool and well worth a look. Anyone got any other ideas they've been bouncing about in your heads?

As an aside more than willing to lay out the VMC options for those without the book as of yet.

Edit:/ Added in some of the easier to note options throughout the thread.

[Milo v3]

I've been meaning to try out a Fighter with Summoner VCM'd in, so I could have an eidolon without any spellcasting baggage.

Since fighters are always the generic warrior class, I'm giving them VCM for free in my games. Though gunslinger and monk still probably wont be good enough to take.

[Kudaku]

A paladin with VMC into Life Oracle can pick up Life Link at level 3 without slowing down his paladin class features. The orison on 7th level could be detect magic, solving an otherwise annoying problem for paladins. Potentially a nice variant on the oradin, but if it's worth losing half your feats on an already feat-starved class really depends on your build.

[Psyren]

Inquisitor/VMC-Cleric gets channel, allowing them to grab Guided Hand at 9 (or retrain a lower-level feat into it at 7.) They also get a second domain. Thanks to Judgment and Bane, they have plenty of bonus damage, allowing them to be Wis-SAD.

Oracle/VMC-Cleric gets Aura, allowing them to qualify for Sacred Summons. They also get Channel without being Life or Bones.

Ninja/VMC-Monk gets a ton of extra ki, free evasion/improved evasion, free dodge bonus to AC (which also applies to CMD), and free Unarmed Combat Mastery (even better version) 7 levels early.

[avr]

Cleric, Druid or Oracle w/Magus VMC: CoDzilla lives and wants to curse you. Fluff that spellstrike as a weapon with your holy symbol engraved on it.

Occultist Arcanist with VMC Summoner for a genuinely full-casting summoner. The fluff writes itself.

[Molosse]

Inquisitor/VMC-Cleric gets channel, allowing them to grab Guided Hand at 9 (or retrain a lower-level feat into it at 7.) They also get a second domain. Thanks to Judgment and Bane, they have plenty of bonus damage, allowing them to be Wis-SAD.

Oracle/VMC-Cleric gets Aura, allowing them to qualify for Sacred Summons. They also get Channel without being Life or Bones.

Ninja/VMC-Monk gets a ton of extra ki, free evasion/improved evasion, free dodge bonus to AC (which also applies to CMD), and free Unarmed Combat Mastery (even better version) 7 levels early.

As an aside, the Inquisitor/Cleric VMC can utilize Channeling Scourge pretty nastily, I believe it'd work out as:
(Character Level -6) + Inquisitor Level for the purpose' of dealing damage which of course increases exponentially as you level.

Level 7 = Level 8 for the purposes of damage
Level 8 = Level 10 "
Level 9 = Level 12 "
Level 10 = Level 14 "
Capping out at Level 12 when you take into account the Level 11 Improved Channel ability the VMC grants.

The issue is of course that Guided Hand requires Channel Smite, which requires the Channel Energy class feature, which you wouldn't receive until level 7 and finally at that level you're giving up your feat option.

[Psyren]

As an aside, the Inquisitor/Cleric VMC can utilize Channeling Scourge pretty nastily, I believe it'd work out as:
(Character Level -6) + Inquisitor Level for the purpose' of dealing damage which of course increases exponentially as you level.

Level 7 = Level 8 for the purposes of damage
Level 8 = Level 10 "
Level 9 = Level 12 "
Level 10 = Level 14 "
Capping out at Level 12 when you take into account the Level 11 Improved Channel ability the VMC grants.

The issue is of course that Guided Hand requires Channel Smite, which requires the Channel Energy class feature, which you wouldn't receive until level 7 and finally at that level you're giving up your feat option.

You give up your 7th level feat - however, you can still get Guided Hand at 7 by retraining, because your character qualifies.

[Molosse]

You give up your 7th level feat - however, you can still get Guided Hand at 7 by retraining, because your character qualifies.

Ah I do apologize, limited experience with retraining rules. Retraining would therefore grant you the ability to trade out a pair of feats for Channel Smite and Guided Hand at level 7?

[Psyren]

Ah I do apologize, limited experience with retraining rules. Retraining would therefore grant you the ability to trade out a pair of feats for Channel Smite and Guided Hand at level 7?

Yes - basically, when you retrain, your class is used as it currently stands (minus whatever thing you're retraining of course) when determining if you qualify. So once you hit 7 and get channel, you can retrain the feats you got at 1 or 5 into Channel Smite.

The example given was a 3rd-level rogue retraining his 1st-level feat into Weapon Focus. As a 1st-level rogue he did not qualify, because he had BAB +0; as a 3rd-level rogue he does, because his BAB is +2.

The fluff is that whoever is training you in Weapon Focus is training you as you currently are, not as you were. (Or if you are training yourself, which takes longer, you are doing so with your current understanding of combat.)

[Molosse]

@Psyren: Good to know mate.

So then, similar to the Battle Herald versus a Cavalier (Bard), are there any other PrC's rendered somewhat unnecessary? Arguably the aforementioned Counterfeit Mage UnRogue can sub in for a less spell based Arcane Trickster.

[Secret Wizard]

@Psyren: Good to know mate.

So then, similar to the Battle Herald versus a Cavalier (Bard), are there any other PrC's rendered somewhat unnecessary? Arguably the aforementioned Counterfeit Mage UnRogue can sub in for a less spell based Arcane Trickster.

If you go Battle Herald, you want to do Exemplar Brawler VMC Cavalier. You get all the relevant features without giving up a single BAB.

Other PrCs...

Eldritch Knight - Go full arcane caster and pick up Oracle VMC Battle Mystery, Skill at Arms revelations at level 3. Qualify immediately for Eldritch Knight.

Champion of Irori - Monk with Paladin VMC, but it should take you too long to qualify.

Arcane Trickster - See above.

[grarrrg]

If you go Battle Herald, you want to do Exemplar Brawler VMC Cavalier. You get all the relevant features without giving up a single BAB.

Battle Herald is probably the single best PrC to make use of with VMCing.


Champion of Irori - Monk with Paladin VMC, but it should take you too long to qualify.

While possible, I'm not convinced that Monk 11/Champion 9 is all that much better than Monk 8/Paladin 2/Champion 10

[Baroncognito]

Going Wizard Secondary costs you five feats for a familiar, whereas to get a familiar without variant multi-class costs you 3 feats. Or two feats if your charisma is 13 or higher.

That said, those five feats are spread over 19 levels instead of front-loaded. Also you get other stuff besides the familiar. So for a Dwarven Forgemaster cleric, Variant Multi-classing with Wizard seems like a pretty good deal.

[Molosse]

Battle Herald is probably the single best PrC to make use of with VMCing.

Don't suppose you'd want to expand upon that? I'm struggling to see Battle Herald as anything more than a wasted choice of levels what with the Bard/Cavalier VMC's.

Of course i'm arguing this from the perspective of a Cavalier (VMC - Bard) so perhaps I'm biased.

[Psyren]

More fun combinations:

Bloodwitch (Witch + VMC Sorcerer) - gets you bloodline powers (the first 3) without needing Cha. This cuts down severely on the useful bloodlines since many of them want you to have high Cha, but for the few that don't care, this is a better option than the Eldritch Heritage line and gives you some interesting abilities. Good bloodlines for this include: Aquatic, Destined, Impossible, Martyred, Nanite, Orc, Pestilence and Protean. (This combination works on other non-Cha classes; Cha classes are possibly better off with the Eldritch Heritage line.)

Trickster (Unchained Rogue + VMC Wizard) - gets a school and familiar to help you on your capers. Pick a familiar that boosts checks you use frequently, like Stealth, Initiative, Reflex or Acrobatic. For the school, pick one that helps you with skills or combat. (Foresight is excellent here - preroll all your checks.) For the cantrip, good choices are Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Acid Splash, Ghost Sound and Arcane Mark. For the discovery, go with Feral Speech, Ioun Bond, Knowledge is Power, or Time Stutter.

Runesmith (Fighter + VMC Wizard) - this one is very useful for crafting-focused fighters. For this you want Arcane Builder or Golem Constructor, and of course Master Craftsman.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Arcane Trickster - See above.

Since the Sneak Attack progression isn't tied to class levels, couldn't you retrain however many spellcasting class levels you wanted after getting access to AT? Obviously you'd need to keep however many levels in that spellcasting class you need to have access to 2nd level spells (and you'd still need to have at least 4 levels in it), but I can't find anything that would prevent it otherwise.

[Molosse]

Sneaky Bomber (Underground] Chemist - VMC Alchemist) - Do you like Bombs? Do you like more Bombs? Do you like Sneak Attack Damage off Bombs? Do you like coating Sneak Attack'd Bombs in Poison? Awesome, enjoy away.

Untiring Rage (Barbarian - VMC Oracle) - Grabbing, again, the Oracle VMC unto a Lame Curse for a Barbarian let's you, at level 10, ignore the issues normally found within Rage-Cycling. You'll also more than make up for your bad leg with both Fast Movement and ignoring movement penalties in armour at level 11.

[grarrrg]

Don't suppose you'd want to expand upon that? I'm struggling to see Battle Herald as anything more than a wasted choice of levels what with the Bard/Cavalier VMC's.

Of course i'm arguing this from the perspective of a Cavalier (VMC - Bard) so perhaps I'm biased.

"Best PrC to use with VMC" is a pretty low bar.


Untiring Rage (Barbarian - VMC Oracle): Grabbing, again, the Oracle VMC unto a Lame Curse for a Barbarian let's you, at level 10, ignore the issues normally found within Rage-Cycling. You'll also more than make up for your bad leg with both Fast Movement and ignoring movement penalties in armour at level 11.

Unless the game is going to/starting at level 20, I'd rather just dip 1 level of Oracle and save my feats for other things.

[Secret Wizard]

Sneaky Bomber (Underground Chemist - VMC Alchemist): Do you like Bombs? Do you like more Bombs? Do you like Sneak Attack Damage off Bombs? Do you like coating Sneak Attack'd Bombs in Poison? Awesome, enjoy away.

Untiring Rage (Barbarian - VMC Oracle): Grabbing, again, the Oracle VMC unto a Lame Curse for a Barbarian let's you, at level 10, ignore the issues normally found within Rage-Cycling. You'll also more than make up for your bad leg with both Fast Movement and ignoring movement penalties in armour at level 11.

You need to selectively be playing WITHOUT the new Barbarian but WITH the VMC feature to be able to rage cycle in this way. New Barb can't rage cycle.

[Molosse]

Unless the game is going to/starting at level 20, I'd rather just dip 1 level of Oracle and save my feats for other things.

Actually that's an interesting point. If the Oracle's Curse is "Based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle." and the VMC option is "She gains all effects of the curse, treating her effective oracle level as equal to 1/2 her character level."

Does that mean you just have a fully scaling curse at even levels?

Level 1: -
Level 2: (Half CL)+1 = 2
Level 3: (Half CL)+1 = 2
Level 4: (Half CL)+2 = 4
Etc Etc.

[Psyren]

Actually that's an interesting point. If the Oracle's Curse is "Based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle." and the VMC option is "She gains all effects of the curse, treating her effective oracle level as equal to 1/2 her character level."

Does that mean you just have a fully scaling curse at even levels?

Level 1: -
Level 2: (Half CL)+1 = 2
Level 3: (Half CL)+1 = 2
Level 4: (Half CL)+2 = 4
Etc Etc.

No, because with VMC Oracle you're treated as having Oracle levels for the purpose of the curse, and furthermore you can't MC and VMC Oracle on the same character. So there is no way to "double-dip."

[Shadowscale]

I could imagine s useful build going off some sort of alchemist barbarian hybrid. Might actually get to use the master chymist.

[Psyren]

^ Speaking of which, you can also use VMC to be an Oracle 11/Rage Prophet 9, giving you 18/20 casting (9th-level spells). Losing the last level of Rage Prophet costs you nothing, because you end up getting the capstone ability (Greater Rage) even earlier anyway.

[grarrrg]

You need to selectively be playing WITHOUT the new Barbarian but WITH the VMC feature to be able to rage cycle in this way. New Barb can't rage cycle.

And?
The "new" Barb/Monk/Rogue are specifically called out as "optional", with only the Summoner being an outright intended "replacement".


Speaking of which, you can also use VMC to be an Oracle 11/Rage Prophet 9, giving you 18/20 casting (9th-level spells). Losing the last level of Rage Prophet costs you nothing, because you end up getting the capstone ability (Greater Rage) even earlier anyway.

You'd only have 17th level casting, Prophet loses casting at 1, 5, and 8.
You get a slight bump in HD, slightly different Mystery Spells to pick from (of which none are 8th or 9th level), get a bunch of "eh" abilities, and while the Revelations you already have keep progressing, you don't get any more (and with 1/2 feats you likely can't afford Extra Revelation).
Moment of Clarity (or is it Clarity of Mind?) based "Rage Casting" is a waste of time.
And you lose the level 20 Capstone Revelation power (and it's really kind of sad that the Prophet "capstone" is the same thing you're getting from VMC anyway).

Yeah...How is Oracle/Rage Prophet a _good_ idea again?

[Psyren]

You'd only have 17th level casting, Prophet loses casting at 1, 5, and 8.

My bad, you can drop out at 7 then. The best abilities (Ragecaster, Idomitable Caster, Spirit Guardian and Enduring Rage) all still come before that point anyway. So Oracle 11/RP 7/Oracle +2.



Moment of Clarity (or is it Clarity of Mind?) based "Rage Casting" is a waste of time.
And you lose the level 20 Capstone Revelation power (and it's really kind of sad that the Prophet "capstone" is the same thing you're getting from VMC anyway).

Yeah...How is Oracle/Rage Prophet a _good_ idea again?

You get the VMC ability at 19 rather than 20.

As written, you get Indomitable Caster whether you are raging or not.
And these abilities are useful. Con+Cha to save DCs is potent, making RP handy even for non-gish Oracles. Just having 16 Con means +3 to your save DCs, and at higher levels you're likely to have at least 20 Con if not more. You also get a free +3 competence bonus to any saving throw you have to make during your rage, and it stays active until you use it.

[grarrrg]

My bad, you can drop out at 7 then. The best abilities (Ragecaster, Idomitable Caster, Spirit Guardian and Enduring Rage) all still come before that point anyway. So Oracle 11/RP 7/Oracle +2.
As written, you get Indomitable Caster whether you are raging or not.
And these abilities are useful. Con+Cha to save DCs is potent, making RP handy even for non-gish Oracles. Just having 16 Con means +3 to your save DCs, and at higher levels you're likely to have at least 20 Con if not more. You also get a free +3 competence bonus to any saving throw you have to make during your rage, and it stays active until you use it.

I'm going to assume that Rage-Cycling is in play, otherwise most of the above become "1/encounter" abilities and thus complete utter garbage.

The primary issue of the Rage Prophet is that of the abilities look pretty sweet, but can't actually be used together.
A lot of the bonuses are "+X when casting while Raging", but the only spells you can cast while Raging withOUT using Moment of Clarity of Mind are Cure spells (or Personal range at level 8).
Moment of Clarity means that you have to turn OFF your Rage bonuses to cast the spell.
So any "rage casting bonus" means you aren't actually Raging, but you get to spend a round of Rage anyway.

Ragecaster 4th level 'bonus' is blank, as there is no Barbarian in play.
Ragecaster 7th is good, but it'd be better if we could add our Raging CON bonus instead of just normal CON bonus to DC's.

Indomitable Caster adds CON to Concentration checks, but you're already down 2 Caster levels from Prophet, so it's more like CON-2, and again, not Rage-CON (unless you are Cure-ing yourself).

Spirit Guardian is only a +1 bonus, unless you are fighting a Fey/Outsider/Undead, which while common enough, are not present in every fight. And even with Rage-Cycling is still a single bonus per round, not continuous.

Enduring Rage...Rage Prophet should just naturally give you extra rounds of Rage to begin with. Would +1/Round/Level have killed them? But since the PrC is what it is, I'll give you this point. Being able to have more Rage Rounds is handy.


So you get to spend half of your Feats on NOT having Rage Powers, and using Rage to power-up your weakened casting instead of just fighting.
I'll just use my +2 caster levels and +2 Revelations from Oracle 20 on non-situational bonuses instead.

[Psyren]

Rage-cycling should always be assumed (even the very low-level expedient of lesser restoration pots) - there's pretty much no point playing a non-unchained barbarian (or other rager) without it.



Ragecaster 7th is good, but it'd be better if we could add our Raging CON bonus instead of just normal CON bonus to DC's.

Indomitable Caster adds CON to Concentration checks, but you're already down 2 Caster levels from Prophet, so it's more like CON-2, and again, not Rage-CON (unless you are Cure-ing yourself).

You're forgetting Mad Magic (which you can pick up by 13 11 with retraining) - and even with a non-raged Con bonus, as a caster you're going to have at least a 14 here, and by 20 it will be 20+ due to Con belt + manual/wish/miracle, getting you 5+ to DCs. With Mad Magic you are getting 8+ to your save DCs and concentration checks, all untyped.



Spirit Guardian is only a +1 bonus, unless you are fighting a Fey/Outsider/Undead, which while common enough, are not present in every fight. And even with Rage-Cycling is still a single bonus per round, not continuous.

It doesn't have to be continuous, you are rarely making more than one saving throw per round, and you can choose which one to use it on (i.e. one that targets your weakest save.) Then you re-enter rage as a free action the following turn and get a new one.


Enduring Rage...Rage Prophet should just naturally give you extra rounds of Rage to begin with. Would +1/Round/Level have killed them? But since the PrC is what it is, I'll give you this point. Being able to have more Rage Rounds is handy.

Yep. So it can indeed be a pretty useful option.

I know you have it in for Rage Prophet but it can be optimized quite well, and has unique benefits. +8 to save DCs and converting spells into rage rounds is worth a couple of feats I'd say.

[Molosse]

No, because with VMC Oracle you're treated as having Oracle levels for the purpose of the curse, and furthermore you can't MC and VMC Oracle on the same character. So there is no way to "double-dip."

See that's my question, and apologies if this has an easy answer.

The "Curse" class feature states: Based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle, therefore in regards to VMC's are you, for example considered a:
i) Fighter + Oracle (1-20), with a distinction between each class similar to normal multi-classing.
ii) An Oracle Fighter (1-20), with no clear distinction between each class and instead serving as a complete hybrid.
or iii) A Fighter who gains Oracle class features and nothing more.

I ask this because if it is (i) then, by reading the Curse class feature, we can argue that you add half you Fighter class onto half your Oracle class for the purposes of determining Curse.

Addition: Having read the Oracle VMC it's pretty obvious that either (ii) or (iii) over (i) would be more appropriate as, through the understanding given above, at level 11 you'd have a higher stacked Curse than a straight Oracle.

As an side, when dealing with the Rage Prophet mentioned above, would you not have an equivalent to a Barbarian level due to VMC's?
Or, as I'm coming to understand, do VMC's simply grant Class Features as opposed to giving you an equivalency within a certain class?

[Molosse]

Knightly Hospitaler - Going back again to the Order of the Star, it states that: "The cavalier adds 1/2 his cavalier level to any levels of paladin or cleric he might possess for the purposes of determining the effects of channel energy or lay on hands." Normally if one was to split for a Cavalier/Paladin you'd simply gain the Paladins somewhat weakened and limited Channel Energy but, by grabbing Hospitaler, you manage to scale both Class Features at an accelerated rate while making replacing the slower progression of Smite Evil with the Challenge ability from the Cavalier VMC which, when mixed with Chain Challenge, will let you rip through a specific encounter a day.

Knightly Vindicator - Take all of the above and jump into Holy Vindicator to not only maintain a decent scaling on Lay on Hands (Order of the Star) but the increased scaling on Channel Energy for the H.Vindicators class abilities. All it takes then is you grabbing the Bracers of the Merciful Knight to gain, depending on how it interacts with Order of the Star, a +4/6 level equivalency to Lay on Hands for both effect and frequency, finishing it up with Glorious Charge and your set to rock away.

[twilsemail]

New Barb can't rage cycle.

What am I missing that makes this so? I can't find the clause that stops new barbar from rage-cycling.

[grarrrg]

You're forgetting Mad Magic (which you can pick up by 13 11 with retraining) - and even with a non-raged Con bonus, as a caster you're going to have at least a 14 here, and by 20 it will be 20+ due to Con belt + manual/wish/miracle, getting you 5+ to DCs. With Mad Magic you are getting 8+ to your save DCs and concentration checks, all untyped.

Not forgetting Mad Magic. Purposefully ignoring.
It has a requirement of Perfect Clarity Rage Power, which means you need to spend a Feat on Extra Rage>Perfect Clarity AND a feat on Mad Magic.
So of your 10 feats, you've already spent 5 on VMC Barbarian, and another 2 to get Perfect Clarity and Mad Magic.
This is getting exorbitantly expensive feat-wise.

And as stated before, your CON>Concentration bonus will actually be 2 lower compared to Straight-Oracle due to the lost Caster levels.


It doesn't have to be continuous, you are rarely making more than one saving throw per round, and you can choose which one to use it on (i.e. one that targets your weakest save.) Then you re-enter rage as a free action the following turn and get a new one.

Yes it can be refreshed, but you only get a better than +1 bonus if you're fighting [specific monster-types].


I know you have it in for Rage Prophet but it can be optimized quite well, and has unique benefits. +8 to save DCs and converting spells into rage rounds is worth a couple of feats I'd say.

"unique benefits" does not mean "good benefits".
The Save DC is really the only _potentially_ redeeming part of the stupid class.
As far as "hybrid PrC's" go, it is the poster child for "err on the side of caution".

I'll leave you with one final note: I think the Rage Prophet was a "sneak preview" of what to expect in the ACG > "Moment of Clarity of Mind". :smalltongue:



The "Curse" class feature states: Based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle, therefore in regards to VMC's are you, for example considered a:
...As an side, when dealing with the Rage Prophet mentioned above, would you not have an equivalent to a Barbarian level due to VMC's?
Or, as I'm coming to understand, do VMC's simply grant Class Features as opposed to giving you an equivalency within a certain class?

Not sure what the exact wording in the book is, but given what I've read, the intent seems clear enough that "VMC Barb" has an effective Barb level of 0, give or take any text that says "levels count as Barb to qualify/use Rage Powers".

Likewise, it's fairly easy to forget that Oracle Curses already have a "non-oracle level" rider, and the designers likely forgot this as well (again, give or take exact wording). Further supported by
A: VMC Oracle gets a "+5 to Curse" bonus at level 11
B: _VERY_ few, if any, Curses have bonuses past level 15
C: Stacking VMC Oracle Curse with "normal Curse rules" would give access to level 15 Curse-powers at level 11, given the watered-down-as-all-heck approach to most VMC's, this seems quite ridiculous.
Conclusion: Your levels count 1/2 towards Oracle Curse, period.

[Psyren]

Not forgetting Mad Magic. Purposefully ignoring.
It has a requirement of Perfect Clarity Rage Power, which means you need to spend a Feat on Extra Rage>Perfect Clarity AND a feat on Mad Magic.
So of your 10 feats, you've already spent 5 on VMC Barbarian, and another 2 to get Perfect Clarity and Mad Magic.
This is getting exorbitantly expensive feat-wise.

Expensive, certainly. Worth it, quite possibly. You could have spent all those feats on SF/GSF for each school of magic you were interested in, still come up short, and the bonus would be completely minuscule compared to what you get here, with no chance of scaling. And it will apply to your concentration checks too.


as stated before, your CON>Concentration bonus will actually be 2 lower compared to Straight-Oracle due to the lost Caster levels.

Which means it will be equal to a straight Oracle unless you have less than 14 Con (and why on earth would you?) And for every 2 points of con more than that, even temporary bonuses, you pull ahead by 1.


"unique benefits" does not mean "good benefits".
The Save DC is really the only _potentially_ redeeming part of the stupid class.
As far as "hybrid PrC's" go, it is the poster child for "err on the side of caution".

No argument here - proceed with caution. But if you're sufficiently skilled you can get a lot of mileage out of it. (And if you're not skilled - you probably shouldn't be VMC anyway.)

[grarrrg]

Hmmm....what level does VMC Druid grant the Companion? Are there any "extra restrictions"? Stacking/Non-Stacking language?

Cause I'm thinking we take the old "Super Mount" build and throw some VMC Druid in there.
Elf* Nature Oracle 20, Favored Class bonus going towards Mount Revelation (note that the Mount revelation will be taken at level 7 at the absolute earliest).
Grab the Animal Ally (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally) feat at level 5 (and whatever nonsense pre-req (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/nature-soul) for it at level 1).

Now normally, this gives you a level 47 Mount at level 20 (20 from Oracle, +10 from Favored Class, +17 from Animal Ally).

And possibly throw some Mammoth Rider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/mammoth-rider) in there for funsies, but not too much Mammoth, as we lose out on the Favored Class bonus boost.


Is the wording of the Druid VMC sufficient(ly lacking) to give us a Super-Mega-Dee-Duper Mount Build?


*any race with "+1/2 Level towards Revelation" will work

[Snowbluff]

Make sure to give it some int to improve the types of feats it can take. :D

[Psyren]

VMC Druid would just give you a second companion with its own progression. In addition:


Companion: At 7th level, she gains an animal companion as a druid of her character level – 4. No ability other than Improved Companion can ever increase her effective druid level for this purpose.

Improved Companion: At 11th level, her animal companion increases to that of a druid of her full character level.

So it starts at 3, jumps to 11, then goes to 20 at level 20 and no higher.

However, I'd say it's a much better way to get two companions than the Beastmaster Ranger, which instead requires you to divide your druid level between them.

[Snowbluff]

D:

Psyren, is there a way for me to get a dragon companion?

[Molosse]

D:

Psyren, is there a way for me to get a dragon companion?

Outside of the Leadership feat? I don't believe so.

Would a Griffon/Hippogryph do?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/monstrous-mount

[Psyren]

D:

Psyren, is there a way for me to get a dragon companion?

A Cavalier with Order of the Beast gets the ability to cast form of the dragon on their mount.

I don't know of any way to get a real dragon other than Leadership.

[grarrrg]

VMC Druid would just give you a second companion with its own progression. In addition:

So it starts at 3, jumps to 11, then goes to 20 at level 20 and no higher.

However, I'd say it's a much better way to get two companions than the Beastmaster Ranger, which instead requires you to divide your druid level between them.

Darn. They actually closed a loophole before it was a loophole...

My Favorite method for 2 companions will always have to be Horse Master Cavalier. It requires a 4 level dip in Cavalier, but guaranteed full progression regardless of class is pretty nice.
Then just make sure your other class has an "Animal Companion" and not a "Mount" and you're set.

[Molosse]

Darn. They actually closed a loophole before it was a loophole...

My Favorite method for 2 companions will always have to be Horse Master Cavalier. It requires a 4 level dip in Cavalier, but guaranteed full progression regardless of class is pretty nice.
Then just make sure your other class has an "Animal Companion" and not a "Mount" and you're set.

A quick question. Is not another, arguably better, way to gain two companions by simply being a Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor with the Chivalry Inquisition? Grabs you a Horse and any AC from the Druid list at what, from my reading, seems to be full progression for both. In addition it looks like you grant your teamwork feats to both AC's so fun times if that's true, though you do lose access to the Faithful Steed ability from the Chivalry Inquisition as you trade out your Judgement class feature for Sacred Huntmaster.

[grarrrg]

A quick question. Is not another, arguably better, way to gain two companions by simply being a Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor with the Chivalry Inquisition? Grabs you a Horse and any AC from the Druid list at what, from my reading, seems to be full progression for both. In addition it looks like you grant your teamwork feats to both AC's so fun times if that's true, though you do lose access to the Faithful Steed ability from the Chivalry Inquisition as you trade out your Judgement class feature for Sacred Huntmaster.

Yeah, "sharing non-existent Judgement" is not optimal, but that does get you 2 companions with minimal fuss.

And your Teamwork feats would only share with the Animal Companion and not the Mount for a few reasons, the biggest one is that a Mount is NOT an Animal Companion. They are considered entirely different features, despite being 99% mechanically identical.


Part of the problem with multiple companions is that Animal Companion levels ALWAYS stack for Animal Companions (unless they can't), and Animal Companion levels sometimes stack with Mount levels, see the the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qqn).
The 3 ways to circumvent the rule are:
1) Have 2 companions from restricted lists that do not overlap. Such as Falconer Ranger must have a Bird, and Scalykind Domain must be a Snake. They do NOT overlap, and thus you have 2 companions.
2) Have an Animal Companion and a Mount. This one is similar to 1, but the added trickiness of you can OPTIONALLY stack them, if you wish/can.
3) Use a "Pack Lord" archetype that specifically lets you split your levels among multiple companions. This usually winds up being the worst option, as it's difficult to boost your "druid level" far enough past your character level to make it worth it (certain interpretations of Boon Companion feat can help, but ultimately fall behind as well).

[Molosse]

Yeah, "sharing non-existent Judgement" is not optimal, but that does get you 2 companions with minimal fuss.

And your Teamwork feats would only share with the Animal Companion and not the Mount for a few reasons, the biggest one is that a Mount is NOT an Animal Companion. They are considered entirely different features, despite being 99% mechanically identical.

A shame, but it's not the worst thing in the world, just grab the Horsemaster's Saddle and your good to go as your own little trio of teamwork dealing death.

Also as an aside, and it may just be the PFSRD, but it seems like the Sacred Huntmaster does NOT give up the Solo Tactics ability.

Spellsinger - A Maestro Sorcerer (VMC Bard) or a Bard (VMC Maestro Sorcerer) both serve as thematic and effective enchantment and buffing based Cha builds with only a little work whilst making use of the Sorcerer's overall lack of need regarding Feats.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Are the VMC paths, besides Paladin, limited in their alignment? Like you can't be lawful to take the Barbarian VMC?

[Psyren]

Are the VMC paths, besides Paladin, limited in their alignment? Like you can't be lawful to take the Barbarian VMC?

Clerics/Inquistors still have the one-step rule, but otherwise no. So you can have lawful VMC Barbarians or chaotic VMC monks (though the latter loses their lawful ki strike.) This is intended. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s81a?Unchained-Variant-Multiclassing#43)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Paladin barbarian! PALADIN BARBARIAN!

Or, to supplement an idea I have been working on, a Pitborn Tiefling paladin that uses natural attacks with sorcerer VMC.

[Snowbluff]

A Cavalier with Order of the Beast gets the ability to cast form of the dragon on their mount.
Bleh. The animal would still be dumb (Int 2), right? D;


I don't know of any way to get a real dragon other than Leadership.
I guess that works. CR = Level for that purpose, right?

However, I can't ubermount it. Still, it's better than nothing, I guess.

Would a Griffon/Hippogryph do?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/monstrous-mount

Close. Having better than animal intelligence is better, but I need at least 13 int for things like Combat Expertise based feat chains.

[Psyren]

Or, to supplement an idea I have been working on, a Pitborn Tiefling paladin that uses natural attacks with sorcerer VMC.

If you have high Cha you might actually be better off with the Eldritch Heritage feat chain. For those bloodlines where the 3rd or 9th-level power might be lackluster, this lets you skip that one, plus you get the higher powers earlier than VMC Sorcerer gives them to you.



Close. Having better than animal intelligence is better, but I need at least 13 int for things like Combat Expertise based feat chains.

Give it Combat Stamina and it can qualify for all that stuff without 13 Int.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Right, forgot about that one; That would probably work better, and would save on feats. But MY GODS, PALADIN BARBARIAN. With the Fatigue mercy. 'Beware my holy rage! indeed.

[Snowbluff]

Give it Combat Stamina and it can qualify for all that stuff without 13 Int.:o

THat's for the new stamina system, right? It's not on the SRD. Either way, it can't be worse than Combat Expertise. :smalltongue:


Right, forgot about that one; That would probably work better, and would save on feats. But MY GODS, PALADIN BARBARIAN. With the Fatigue mercy. 'Beware my holy rage! indeed.
With the feat to maximize vital strike damage, you can do a barb druid stegosaurus build (or crystal ooze, but I like the word stegosaurus) for huge damage dice, them return the fatigue with the mercy.

[Ilorin Lorati]

THat's for the new stamina system, right? It's not on the SRD. Either way, it can't be worse than Combat Expertise. :smalltongue:


Yeah. Combat Expertise and the combat maneuver chains, at the very least, all have text that states if you have a Stamina pool you can take them if you don't meet the Int prerequisite, but can only use them if you have at least 1 point in your pool.

[Psyren]

:o

THat's for the new stamina system, right? It's not on the SRD. Either way, it can't be worse than Combat Expertise. :smalltongue:

Yeah it's not up there yet, but supposedly it will be soon.

Combat Stamina's only prereq is +1 BAB, so animal companions can grab it (or even retrain into it) easily. Or you can use the variant whereby every creature in the game gets it for free.

Basically all those "13 Int feats" have stamina language like:


Combat Expertise (Combat): You can select this feat even if you don’t meet the ability score prerequisite (Intelligence 13). You gain the benefit of this feat only as long as you have at least 1 stamina point in your stamina pool. If you spend stamina points to raise an attack roll using the Combat Stamina feat’s benefits, ignore an amount of your Combat Expertise penalty equal to the number of stamina points you spent.
...
Greater Dirty Trick (Combat): You can select this feat even if you don’t meet the ability score prerequisite (Intelligence 13). You gain the benefits of this feat only as long as you have at least 1 stamina point in your stamina pool. When you successfully complete a dirty trick combat maneuver, you can spend 5 stamina points to make the condition you inflicted with that maneuver require a full-round action to remove (instead of a standard action)

And so on along those lines. I think they got to all of the Int 13 feats that way.



With the feat to maximize vital strike damage, you can do a barb druid stegosaurus build (or crystal ooze, but I like the word stegosaurus) for huge damage dice, them return the fatigue with the mercy.

You mean Furious Finish right? What mercy do you mean?

Druids get lesser restoration so you can remove the fatigue that way also.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah it's not up there yet, but supposedly it will be soon.

Combat Stamina's only prereq is +1 BAB, so animal companions can grab it (or even retrain into it) easily. Or you can use the variant whereby every creature in the game gets it for free.

Basically all those "13 Int feats" have stamina language like:



And so on along those lines. I think they got to all of the Int 13 feats that way.
Oh okay.



You mean Furious Finish right? What mercy do you mean?

Druids get lesser restoration so you can remove the fatigue that way also.
Yes, and anti fatigue mercy.

You should do that, but it's got a 3 round casting time. You can't even quicken it. Besides, you want the slot for Litany of Righteousness, poached via samsaran. :P

[Psyren]

You should do that, but it's got a 3 round casting time. You can't even quicken it. Besides, you want the slot for Litany of Righteousness, poached via samsaran. :P

Potions then - standard action to drink. (Move with Fast Drinker.)

How are you getting mercy on a Barb/Druid?

[Snowbluff]

Potions then - standard action to drink. (Move with Fast Drinker.)
Move action potion could work, assuming I have hands or some appendage.


How are you getting mercy on a Barb/Druid?

Multiclassed or VMCed Paladin or Barb. Not sure on the specifics. Just an outline based on what the guy said.

Another good alternative is Horizon Walker.

[Psyren]

Move action potion could work, assuming I have hands or some appendage.


Multiclassed or VMCed Paladin or Barb. Not sure on the specifics. Just an outline based on what the guy said.

Another good alternative is Horizon Walker.

Ah - unfortunately, you can be a Paladin/VMC Barb but not the other way around, VMC Pally still has the alignment restriction. You'd be waiting a long time for a mercy that way anyway though.

Horizon Walker won't work - the wording of Furious Finish causes it to cut through/bypass fatigue immunity. Basically you have to take the fatigue and then remove it somehow. (Even if it could do this though, it wouldn't be a good idea, because it doesn't progress wild shape or rage.)

I would personally do Bloodrager/VMC Paladin, maybe with Primalist if I really wanted rage powers.

[Secret Wizard]

What am I missing that makes this so? I can't find the clause that stops new barbar from rage-cycling.

No more 1/rage powers, all of them are 1/day.

[Shadowscale]

Any decent ideas what variant multi class to give hunter so it doesn't suck in combat?

[Snowbluff]

Ah - unfortunately, you can be a Paladin/VMC Barb but not the other way around, VMC Pally still has the alignment restriction. You'd be waiting a long time for a mercy that way anyway though.


Horizon Walker won't work - the wording of Furious Finish causes it to cut through/bypass fatigue immunity. Basically you have to take the fatigue and then remove it somehow. (Even if it could do this though, it wouldn't be a good idea, because it doesn't progress wild shape or rage.)
It depends on how you read normally.

Optimistic gambler would prevent the rage from ending, so fatigue doesn't matter. Community Minded would help keep it lasting longer, possibly. However, the point still stands that VMC doesn't help here. D:


I would personally do Bloodrager/VMC Paladin, maybe with Primalist if I really wanted rage powers.
o.0 Perche?

[Psyren]

No more 1/rage powers, all of them are 1/day.

To elaborate on this, some of the things that were normally 1/rage became 1/day, and others became "stance powers" which basically last as long as you rage and can be switched as a move action. So something like Moment of Clarity, formerly 1/rage, is now a stance you can take during the rage as many times as you want (turning off the bonuses and penalties, except for the THP.)


Any decent ideas what variant multi class to give hunter so it doesn't suck in combat?

Archetypes, gear and proper feat/spell selection should actually be your first stop there, and deciding between melee or ranged before making your selections etc. The VMC is very limited and specific, and if those other basic optimization items are not making you any better at combat, VMC won't either - you'll just end up setting a bunch of feats on fire for little benefit.

Having said that, a good combo with Hunter is VMC Cavalier - picking Order of the Beast. The Wild Empathy ability is wasted, but you can shapeshift your companion as the campaign warrants (gaining only the benefits, not the penalties for doing so) and later turning it into a dragon. Another decent combo is VMC Rogue, gibing you extra punch if you flank with your companion or catch your foe off-guard.

Note also that as-written, Instant Enemy should work for you even if you lack a Ranger's FE class feature.


o.0 Perche?

Per-what now?

[Snowbluff]

Per-what now?

"For what?" Why? Elaborate, I wanted to know where you were going with that. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Oh, is that Italian?

Basically where I was going is that (a) Bloodrager can be any alignment, allowing you to be a LG rage-using VMC Paladin, (b) they get access to rage powers with the primalist archetype, and (c) there is both Cha and Str synergy between the two.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The reason I suggested Paladin/VMC!Barbarian is that 1) can't do it via standard multiclassing, and 2) even with rage-cycling done with, I'm sure you can think of something to do with removing the fatigue. Essentially does away with the need for Moment of Clarity (I think) since you can just lay on hands to remove Fatigue so you can cast a spell, if necessary. Also, it's kinda flavorful.

[Snowbluff]

Oh, is that Italian? Yes. The "ch" makes a "k" sounds.


Basically where I was going is that (a) Bloodrager can be any alignment, allowing you to be a LG rage-using VMC Paladin, (b) they get access to rage powers with the primalist archetype, and (c) there is both Cha and Str synergy between the two.

Ah, okay. I haven't looked at the Bloodrager list, but I think I like the paladin one pretty well.

[twilsemail]

No more 1/rage powers, all of them are 1/day.

But there's nothing to stop you from cycling for THP, right? "Well, I just ran out of my rage's THP. Guess I'll stop and start over again." Half a second later "Woo! 20 THP all over again."

[Psyren]

But there's nothing to stop you from cycling for THP, right? "Well, I just ran out of my rage's THP. Guess I'll stop and start over again." Half a second later "Woo! 20 THP all over again."

No, the THP can only be gained 1/minute (i.e. every 10 rounds, so effectively 1/combat.)

[deuxhero]

You could already rage!Paladin already: Just take the rage subdomain via Sacred Servant (Indeed, that combo is supposed to be a decent chunk of Ragathiel's followers). Paladin+Barbarian VMC actually works before 11th level though (you can combine them though for lots of rage and extra powers in exchange for fewer smites. If your GM allows it, both Sacred Servant and Oath of Vengence, both add additional spells to Spells but otherwise don't change it, to trade 2 LoH for an extra smite)

I saw a few people elsewhere talking about grabbing swashbuckler's Precise Strike through using VMC Magus to pickup Arcane Deed (and Evasive). Does that work (assume grabbing that deed though arcane deed works in the first place, as there's been some questions about Arcane Deed never saying how abilities that use Swashbuckler level worked.)? Seems like it could be decent on a Dawnflower Dervish Bard.

[Secret Wizard]

But there's nothing to stop you from cycling for THP, right? "Well, I just ran out of my rage's THP. Guess I'll stop and start over again." Half a second later "Woo! 20 THP all over again."

1. THP is, as stated, 1/minute.

2. That's munchkin town.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

IIRC the arcana says to treat Magus level as Swashbuckler level, and Arcane Pool as Panache Pool.

[deuxhero]

But there's nothing to stop you from cycling for THP, right? "Well, I just ran out of my rage's THP. Guess I'll stop and start over again." Half a second later "Woo! 20 THP all over again."

Dawnflower Dervish could always do this out of the box at level 10 with no resources invested (though he does it better with a good con and toughness).

[Ninjaxenomorph]

A while ago I was thinking about how the Magus VMC could be used. Spellstrike is pretty cool, but on anyone besides an Eldritch Knight gish build, I don't really see much wide use. I guess bad touch clerics/other divine classes might want it, but I don't have the book yet, so I don't know if it can be used for divine classes.

[Psyren]

A while ago I was thinking about how the Magus VMC could be used. Spellstrike is pretty cool, but on anyone besides an Eldritch Knight gish build, I don't really see much wide use. I guess bad touch clerics/other divine classes might want it, but I don't have the book yet, so I don't know if it can be used for divine classes.

It can be used with any spell that is also a magus spell. So for instance, a druid could use it with Frigid Touch, because that spell is on both their lists.

Personally I'm more curious about the magus arcana you get. Could a Witch/VMC Magus select Spell Blending to get some wizard spells added to their list?

[Molosse]

It can be used with any spell that is also a magus spell. So for instance, a druid could use it with Frigid Touch, because that spell is on both their lists.

Personally I'm more curious about the magus arcana you get. Could a Witch/VMC Magus select Spell Blending to get some wizard spells added to their list?

Spell Blending:
When a magus selects this arcana, he must select one spell from the wizard spell list that is of a magus spell level he can cast. He adds this spell to his spellbook and list of magus spells known as a magus spell of its wizard spell level. He can instead select two spells to add in this way, but both must be at least one level lower than the highest-level magus spell he can cast.

Magus Arcana VMC:
At 7th level, he gains one magus arcana. He treats his character level as his effective magus level when determining whether or not he can select an arcana.

See the bolded part for any issues that may exist. It's damn silly but in essence it seems to be saying that you ONLY treat your character level as your Magus level when determining whether you can select an Arcana, not for your ability to utilize said Arcana. You can argue this is, as I've said, bloody silly, but there you go.

As an aside you could, for example, grab Broad Study as your Arcana to make a Divine Spellstriker.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

So you could grab it while only expending feats, as opposed to six levels. A bit obfuscated, but makes sense.

[Molosse]

This is more fluff than anything else, but by grabbing the Sorcerer VMC you can build a good few concepts.

Want a Demon-Possessed Warrior? Grab a Fighter (Abyssal Sorcerer VMC).

Speaking of the Sorcerer Bloodlines then, does anyone have any favorites, concentrating on the first two bloodline powers as to get use of them at level 3 and 7, ergo before more than half the campaign disappears.

To start:

Serpentine: Grabs you a Bite attack that inflicts a scaling Poison at level 3 and grabs you a Viper familiar at level 7.

Imperious: Grabs you an additional five Class skills at level 3 and grabs you a bloody great ability in the form of Heroic Echos' which gives you, at level 7, a +1 to any morale bonus from any spell, spell-like ability, or magic item and two levels later that bonus includes competence bonuses'. Finally as an immediate action you can share your increased bonus, if you received it from an effect that affects either/or an area or multiple targets, you can share it with all other recipients of the effect. This effect lasts a time equal to your Cha bonus and you can use the immediate action once per day for every three levels. Damn good choice for a Bard/Sensei/Ecclesitheurge/Exemplar into a PF Chronicler.

[Psyren]

This is more fluff than anything else, but by grabbing the Sorcerer VMC you can build a good few concepts.

Want a Demon-Possessed Warrior? Grab a Fighter (Abyssal Sorcerer VMC).

Speaking of the Sorcerer Bloodlines then, does anyone have any favorites, concentrating on the first two bloodline powers as to get use of them at level 3 and 7, ergo before more than half the campaign disappears.

I gave a list of useful ones on the first page. Remember that for the VMC Sorcerer, you generally want this on builds with low Cha - otherwise you're likely better off taking Eldritch Heritage instead. And accordingly, you want bloodlines that don't care much about your Cha either, i.e. ones whose abilities have no saving throw.

[Molosse]

I gave a list of useful ones on the first page. Remember that for the VMC Sorcerer, you generally want this on builds with low Cha - otherwise you're likely better off taking Eldritch Heritage instead. And accordingly, you want bloodlines that don't care much about your Cha either, i.e. ones whose abilities have no saving throw.

Ninja'd before the edit :P

Also I'm not sure I agree E.Heritage is always better when you have more Cha.

With E.Heritage you:

I) Spend 5 feats to get all the BL powers but with the option to skip either the Level 3 or Level 9 BL power.
II) Require the aforementioned 13-17 Cha
III) Either gain access to the Level 3 BL slower, or gain access to the Level 9 BL faster, than the VMC equivalent.

With VMC you:

I) Spend 5 feats to get all the BL powers but gain one back at Level 11, dependent on your BL.
II) Scale the BL powers at Character Level as opposed to Character Level-2
III) May or May not gain the BL Arcana and BL Class Skill. No clue there, other than the fact that the VMC states: "At 1st level, she must select a sorcerer bloodline. She treats her character level as her effective sorcerer level for all bloodline powers." while the Sorcerer BL power simply states: "A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed." with no real mention of the Sorcerer gaining either the Arcana nor the Class Skill.

[TiaC]

Reviving this thread to return to the Magus VMC. First, the arcane pool ability includes the weapon enhancement, so that's cool. Even on a caster, it makes a +1 Guardian gauntlet a great investment. Second, there are some amazing arcana out there for pretty much anyone. Unlike Oracle and Witch, the Magus VMC does not bar you from taking Extra Arcana.

I would actually say that Witch is one of the best options for this. Wand and Scroll Mastery are both great on a Int-based class, Spell Blending can grab something useful, and Concentrat can save your bacon when you need it.

On the other hand, if you want something more martial, there are all sorts of arcana that boost that or allow you to grab some feats without prerequisites.

Oh, and ki arcana is very nice in VMC.

[Molosse]

Reviving this thread to return to the Magus VMC. First, the arcane pool ability includes the weapon enhancement, so that's cool. Even on a caster, it makes a +1 Guardian gauntlet a great investment. Second, there are some amazing arcana out there for pretty much anyone. Unlike Oracle and Witch, the Magus VMC does not bar you from taking Extra Arcana.

I would actually say that Witch is one of the best options for this. Wand and Scroll Mastery are both great on a Int-based class, Spell Blending can grab something useful, and Concentrat can save your bacon when you need it.

On the other hand, if you want something more martial, there are all sorts of arcana that boost that or allow you to grab some feats without prerequisites.

Oh, and ki arcana is very nice in VMC.

By that same standard the UnBarbarian/Barbarian both make decent VMC's simply for the amount of Rage Powers/Stances you have access too, especially since you can take Extra Rage Power as, again, it isn't limited like both the Oracle/Witch.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I think it would be nice on a rogue that has a decent amount of Intelligence. Not sure if you can use Spellstrike with SLAs unless you get a conductive weapon, but even then it would be a neat addition, especially with Bookish Rogue. The Arcane Pool can affect unarmed strikes with the Monk and Brawler classes, so its extra good for them if they can afford a little Int... though I want to see it on a Swashbuckler. Pity that SLAs can't qualify you for Arcane Strike anymore.

[Psyren]

II) Scale the BL powers at Character Level as opposed to Character Level-2

Actually GEH boosts all your powers to Character Level, including the ones you got before picking it up.



III) May or May not gain the BL Arcana and BL Class Skill. No clue there, other than the fact that the VMC states: "At 1st level, she must select a sorcerer bloodline. She treats her character level as her effective sorcerer level for all bloodline powers." while the Sorcerer BL power simply states: "A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed." with no real mention of the Sorcerer gaining either the Arcana nor the Class Skill.

Neither option gets the arcana so this is a non-point. Only actual sorcerers and equivalent archetypes get it.


By that same standard the UnBarbarian/Barbarian both make decent VMC's simply for the amount of Rage Powers/Stances you have access too, especially since you can take Extra Rage Power as, again, it isn't limited like both the Oracle/Witch.

You cannot VMC Unbarbarian. Only the basic (Core/APG/UM/UC) versions of each class can be VMC'd.

[grarrrg]

Actually GEH boosts all your powers to Character Level, including the ones you got before picking it up.

But you can't get GEH until level 17, so for the vast majority of your career your EH powers will be slightly weaker.

And it factors into how you can stop taking EH feats whenever you want (and/or skip over the second taking of ImpEH). If you don't take the last one you still have the level penalty.

[Molosse]

(A)Actually GEH boosts all your powers to Character Level, including the ones you got before picking it up.
(B)Neither option gets the arcana so this is a non-point. Only actual sorcerers and equivalent archetypes get it.
(C)You cannot VMC Unbarbarian. Only the basic (Core/APG/UM/UC) versions of each class can be VMC'd.

In order:
A) GEH requires level 17, so I'd argue the VMC still holds the advantage there

B) To clarify:
The Sorcerer Bloodline Class Ability states: "Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities.... A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed."

The VMC states: "A character who selects this option doesn't gain feats at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels, but instead gains class features from her secondary class"

The Sorcerer VMC states: "Bloodline: At 1st level, she must select a sorcerer bloodline. She treats her character level as her effective sorcerer level for all bloodline powers."

While Eldritch Heritage states: "Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline.... You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.

Utilizing these four examples I would therefore say that the VMC grants class features, that the Sorcerer VMC grants the Bloodline class feature at level 1 and that the the Bloodline Class Feature grants the Sorcerer "An additional class skill, and other special abilities" while the Eldritch Heritage line simply states "You gain the first/third/ninth etc level bloodline power for the selected bloodline"

I would further support this argument by directing your attention to the Bard VMC which states "Bardic Performance" and then specifically limits the abilities of that class-feature in regard to the VMC.

Finally C)
I see nothing to say that you cannot utilize the Unchained Variants with VMC's. While we use the term Un-XYZ to differentiate the classes there's no such language within the book itself. So unless there's a glaring example of a Core VMC granting a class feature unavailable to the Unchained classes I can't see why they'd limit themselves in this way, especially when the theme of the book is taken into context.

[Psyren]

If VMC grants the arcana I'll concede that point, though this is almost certainly not intended.

As for the Unchained classes being ineligible for VMC, you missed this line:


The following secondary class features are based on features of the classes found in the Core Rulebook.

[Molosse]

If VMC grants the arcana I'll concede that point, though this is almost certainly not intended.

As for the Unchained classes being ineligible for VMC, you missed this line:

I wholeheartedly apologize and concede the point.

[Molosse]

A quick aside, does the Cleric VMC let you take an Inquisition? Going from the Ultimate Magic note that "Inquisitions are like domains. Other classes that use domains can take inquisitions but inquisitions are typically weaker than the domains those classes can already choose because they don’t grant domain spell slots or domain spells."

I'm very doubtful but one can hope.

[Shadowscale]

I'm on the class kick for it currently in pathfindee using pathfinder could one build something similar in flavor and abilities to the dragon shaman, perhaps using the I'll named Druid barely and some type of psychic multi class or something out pf the occult book, I'm stumped to think of any currently though.

[Molosse]

I'm on the class kick for it currently in pathfindee using pathfinder could one build something similar in flavor and abilities to the dragon shaman, perhaps using the I'll named Druid barely and some type of psychic multi class or something out pf the occult book, I'm stumped to think of any currently though.

Ask your DM whether he'd consider allowing a Draconic Bloodrager to gain the stacking unto Bloodline abilities from the Dragon Disciple PrC?

If not, and honestly even if so, check out this guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cmswe4jHDb1Vcm3oQME3mxUelX_WzKbQ8r9_1mwQS6M/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

Beyond that taking the Draconic Sorcerer VMC and 5 levels of Bloodrager could be a good option, or perhaps simply taking the Dragon Shaman Druid Archetype?

[Shadowscale]

Ask your DM whether he'd consider allowing a Draconic Bloodrager to gain the stacking unto Bloodline abilities from the Dragon Disciple PrC?

If not, and honestly even if so, check out this guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cmswe4jHDb1Vcm3oQME3mxUelX_WzKbQ8r9_1mwQS6M/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

Beyond that taking the Draconic Sorcerer VMC and 5 levels of Bloodrager could be a good option?

I think a draconian bloodline bloodrager going into dragon disciple would work, not sure if it's legal though.

[Molosse]

I think a draconian bloodline bloodrager going into dragon disciple would work, not sure if it's legal though.

I mean. It's absolutely legal to enter the PrC, but when you get there your Draconic Bloodrager Bloodline will no longer grow and instead you'll gain the Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline.

But again, ask your DM if you can Bloodrager into Dragon Disciple for a more Martial D.Disciple or Sorcerer into Dragon Disciple for a more Arcane D.Disciple.

[Beowulf DW]

Could a Feral Hunter with Monk VMC work for a Fist of the Forest Build? Probably not, as it's rather feat intensive. You need Weapon Focus, and Feral Combat Training to make it work, and Planar Wild Shape, Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity to make it work well.

I don't know, what do you guys think? Is that a build best left to regular multiclassing?

[Psyren]

Could a Feral Hunter with Monk VMC work for a Fist of the Forest Build? Probably not, as it's rather feat intensive. You need Weapon Focus, and Feral Combat Training to make it work, and Planar Wild Shape, Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity to make it work well.

I don't know, what do you guys think? Is that a build best left to regular multiclassing?

I wouldn't - by the time you get the AC bonus from VMC monk, you would have been long ago able to afford some Wild armor. And you don't get flurry as a VMC monk so there's no point in Feral Combat Training. You're basically just setting both your feats and AC on fire that way.

Really the only class I can in good conscience recommend for VMC monk is Ninja. You at least get something useful out of it (a lot of bonus ki that stacks with your main pool + free unarmed combat mastery + free evasion/imp. evasion) in exchange for giving up your armor, and you can just wear armor until the ki pool comes online with minimal drawback. By the time you get it you should be able to afford bracers of armor anyway, and you'll have a high enough dex to protect yourself unarmored. Then at 15 you get +3 dodge AC that stacks with your other bonuses, and you have uncanny dodge to keep you from losing it all while flatfooted.

[Prime32]

a lot of bonus ki that stacks with your main poolWasn't it ruled that multiple ki pools don't stack, you just get to choose which ability modifier to add to it?

[grarrrg]

Wasn't it ruled that multiple ki pools don't stack, you just get to choose which ability modifier to add to it?

Multiple Ki Pools pretty much always stack. But you are (generally) correct about the "only one ability modifier" though.

Monk itself says nothing about stacking.
Ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) and Shigenjo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tengu/shigenjo-oracle-tengu) (Oracle) both read similar:
"If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool."

Then there is the Rogue Ki Pool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ki-pool-ex) talent, which stacks, but differently:
"If she already has a ki pool, or gains a ki pool later, she gains half her Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) as bonus ki points to her ki pool."

Ninja/Shigenjo seems to be the 'default' ruling.

[Psyren]

Wasn't it ruled that multiple ki pools don't stack, you just get to choose which ability modifier to add to it?

VMC Monk's ki doesn't come from an ability score, it comes from levels. So you only add your Cha mod, but you still get all the points from levels.

[Extra Anchovies]

VMC Monk's ki doesn't come from an ability score, it comes from levels. So you only add your Cha mod, but you still get all the points from levels.

Yeah, that's a really nice combo. I'll probably run Ninja VMC Monk next time I want a stealthy type.

[Larkas]

What do you guys think about a Lore Warden Martial Master Fighter with free Combat Stamina and VMC Bard? Sounds like a fairly versatile character that is still good at his schtick.

[Beowulf DW]

What do you guys think about a Lore Warden Martial Master Fighter with free Combat Stamina and VMC Bard? Sounds like a fairly versatile character that is still good at his schtick.

I actually started a thread about that the other week. It was an attempt to make Fighter breach Tier 3. That's exactly what we came up with.

How about we call it The Warrior Scholar?

[Psyren]

I'm not a fan of VMC Bard outside of Cha-primary or Cha-secondary builds, and fighter is neither. I'd have to say nah, personally.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm not a fan of VMC Bard outside of Cha-primary or Cha-secondary builds, and fighter is neither. I'd have to say nah, personally.

Really? Bardic Knowledge pairs very well with Know Thy Enemy, and Versatile Performance is quite nice (especially since it lets you retrain).

[Psyren]

Really? Bardic Knowledge pairs very well with Know Thy Enemy, and Versatile Performance is quite nice (especially since it lets you retrain).

Sure, but there are other ways to get Bardic Knowledge (if you even need it) and I just don't like the idea of bardic performance being limited/wasted via low Cha.

[Larkas]

I'm not a fan of VMC Bard outside of Cha-primary or Cha-secondary builds, and fighter is neither. I'd have to say nah, personally.

Hmmm, care to expand on that? VMC Bard nets Bardic Knowledge (no Cha dependency), Bardic Performance (Cha dependent, but still scales), Versatile Performance (also Cha dependent, but scales as well), Lore Master (no Cha dependency) and Additional Performances (no Cha dependency). A high Cha certainly improves those two (out of five?) abilities, but they don't strictly need Cha to function. I mean, Bardic Performance level-times per day is still nice, and Versatile Performance with something you wouldn't otherwise have the luxury to train (Oratory, Sing and Keyboard comes to mind) is very nice, and can help increase your character's versatility. Furthermore, I can see some synergy there (Know Thy Enemy + Bardic Knowledge & Lore Warden, Hair’s Breadth + Versatile Performance (Dance)). All in all, I don't see Cha as being essential to this VMC. Lastly, keep in mind that a (Martial Master) Fighter likely won't be needing the lost feats for a build, and the gained abilities are quite novel and useful to a single classed Fighter.


I actually started a thread about that the other week. It was an attempt to make Fighter breach Tier 3. That's exactly what we came up with.

How about we call it The Warrior Scholar?

I'm partial to The Warrior-Poet (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WarriorPoet).

[Extra Anchovies]

Sure, but there are other ways to get Bardic Knowledge (if you even need it)

There are? I'm curious as to what they are, since I haven't heard any. Care to explain?

[Psyren]

Hmmm, care to expand on that?


Care to explain?

To be honest, not really - you guys like the combo and that's all that ultimately matters. I might use it on a Paladin or Cavalier but for a fighter there are so many other VMC's I'd rather try.

[Extra Anchovies]

To be honest, not really - you guys like the combo and that's all that ultimately matters. I might use it on a Paladin or Cavalier but for a fighter there are so many other VMC's I'd rather try.

...I was asking about other ways to get Bardic Knowledge, hence my quoting only that part of your post :smallconfused:

[Larkas]

To be honest, not really - you guys like the combo and that's all that ultimately matters. I might use it on a Paladin or Cavalier but for a fighter there are so many other VMC's I'd rather try.

Even from a versatility point of view?

[Psyren]

...I was asking about other ways to get Bardic Knowledge, hence my quoting only that part of your post :smallconfused:

Dips, PrCs, things.


Even from a versatility point of view?

Yeah - for Fighter in particular I can think of more fun combinations, though again this is a matter of personal preference.

[Larkas]

Yeah - for Fighter in particular I can think of more fun combinations, though again this is a matter of personal preference.

C'mon, Psyren, I'm fishing for your thoughts here! :P

[grarrrg]

non-Bard Bardic KnowledgeThere are? I'm curious as to what they are, since I haven't heard any. Care to explain?

TO THE DIPPING GUIDE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?230500-Pathfinder-Dipping-for-Fun-and-Profit-%28mostly-Profit%29&p=12613046&viewfull=1#post12613046)!
(obligatory "not updated with ACG and newer content", slightly out of date, etc...)

Bard 1
Cleric 1A

Champion of Irori
Field Agent 1
Loremaster 2
Master Spy 3 (limited)
Pathfinder Chronicler 1
Pathfinder Delver 1

[Secret Wizard]

I wouldn't recommend a Bard VMC. You are already too action choked from natural flexibility, know thy enemy and actual combat to actually use a performance.

Honestly, you want the feats... Maybe the Wizard VMC for Knowledge is Power.


Also this whole idea of Tiers is absolutely useless to the actual game. Schroedinger Wizards galore.

[Larkas]

I wouldn't recommend a Bard VMC. You are already too action choked from natural flexibility, know thy enemy and actual combat to actually use a performance.

Uh... In my experience, you won't be swapping feats midfight all that often, and MF's move action won't interact at all with KTE's and BP's standard or swift. Fair points about KTE and BP, but their initiation times decrease with time, BP can be maintained for free, KTE is actually directly buffed by Bardic Knowledge, and BP is there in case you want/need to do something in combat besides chewing faces. (Remember, as a Lore Warden, you're often more of a striker than a tank.) So... Yeah.


Honestly, you want the feats... Maybe the Wizard VMC for Knowledge is Power.

Eh, I don't need the feats. And I really don't care for Int to CMB/CMD, sorry.


Also this whole idea of Tiers is absolutely useless to the actual game. Schroedinger Wizards galore.

Not that this has any relevance to this discussion, but this is your opinion. One that many here don't share, mind, but I won't derail this thread by opening that can of worms.

[Xuldarinar]

Thaumaturgist The Wizard VMC for a Cleric. Select the conjuration school (Infernal binder if you favor devils), and possess the domain (and subdomain) associated with one type of outsider. Your other domain, provided you haven't picked up an archetype that phases it out, can be anything to taste. Pick up the True Name discovery when you hit 15th level for an outsider you can call as a word up to 18 HD, and make sure you throw at least a few feats not taken up by VMC at things to improve your summoning capabilities.

Some feats to consider:
Augment Summoning
Evolved Summoned Monster
Expanded Summon Monster
Greater Spell Focus
Improved Familiar (For any appropriate outsider familiar)
Sacred Summons
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Spell Specialization
Summon Evil Monster
Summon Good Monster
Summon Neutral Monster

[Psyren]

C'mon, Psyren, I'm fishing for your thoughts here! :P

Some of my favorites:

- Fighter VMC Wizard (Creation school, Valet Familiar, Mending cantrip, Arcane Builder/Golem Constructor discovery + Master Craftsman) = Magewright
- Fighter VMC Wizard (Shapechange school, Mauler Familiar, Feral Speech discovery) = Brute
- Fighter/Duelist VMC Wizard (Foresight School, Sage/School Familiar, Knowledge Is Power discovery) = Int to AC and CMB, 2x Int to CMD. (NB: works even better with Kensai Magus.)
- Fighter VMC Oracle (Battle Mystery: War Sight, Battlefield Clarity, Iron Skin, Wolfscarred Curse for bite attack or Deaf Curse for tremorsense.)
- Dwarf Fighter VMC Barbarian (Lore Warden + 2H Fighter + Shatterspell + Spell Sunder + Magic Resistant) = Runebreaker



Eh, I don't need the feats. And I really don't care for Int to CMB/CMD, sorry.


While this is indeed more useful on a Kensai Magus, the right Fighter or Rogue can really go to town with this discovery as well.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Per FAQ, ability bonuses are not intended to be applied twice unless specifically mentioned.

[Psyren]

Per FAQ, ability bonuses are not intended to be applied twice unless specifically mentioned.

You activated my trap card :smallbiggrin:

Knowledge is Power = Int to CMD (untyped)
Duelist Canny Defense = Dodge bonus to CMD equal to Int (typed)

Typed + Untyped = stacks, even with that FAQ. End result = 2x Int to CMD.

This also works with a Kensai Magus, who get the same ability.

[Larkas]

While this is indeed more useful on a Kensai Magus, the right Fighter or Rogue can really go to town with this discovery as well.

Saaame with Fighter VMC Bard! The right Fighter can make great use of the class features! /o/ Now I'm just messing with you, these are indeed great ideas too! :smallbiggrin: Thanks for sharing them!

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Ah, fair enough. It'd get you side-eyed by any GM I know, but fair enough.

[Psyren]

Ah, fair enough. It'd get you side-eyed by any GM I know, but fair enough.

Right, because a Duelist is going to break their campaign wide open :smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

You don't even get the full Int bonus right away!

[Beowulf DW]

Right, because a Duelist is going to break their campaign wide open :smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

You don't even get the full Int bonus right away!

I hate that part of the ability. :smallannoyed:

[Xuldarinar]

Spirituel Cleric VMC on a Contemplative Wilder (though any psionic class/archetype would do). Stat priorities would stand about that of a cleric, and many feats one would take for them would be viable here, provided the feats don't depend upon having divine spellcasting. For additional flavor, utilize independent research to acquire power equivalents to the spells normally granted by your chosen domain.

Domains:While any domain choice is suitable from the standpoint of fluff and generally from the standpoint of crunch, there are those one might consider avoiding. The following would best be avoided because they possess an ability that applies to spells, be it a specific kind or spells in general. Should transparency be extended to allow these, most of the following become viable options.

Chaos (Revelry): Intense Celebration is useless.
Evil (Cannibalism): Consume the Enemy's benefit is useless.
Healing: Healer's Blessing is useless. The Resurrection subdomain should be used with this when possible, as it replaces Healer's Blessing.
Law (Judgement): Chastisement is useless.
Rune: Spell Rune is useless. The Language or Wards subdomains should be used with this when possible, as they replace Spell Rune.
Void: Part The Veil is useless, and the Dark Tapestry subdomain makes this domain entirely useless (The flavor is fantastic though). The Stars subdomain replaces Part the Veil with the equally useless The Stars Are Right ability. The Isolation subdomain should be used with this when possible, as it replaces Part The Veil.

[Molosse]

As an aside I do quite like the Lore Warden (VMC Bard). It fits into the mold of the fantastical warrior-scholar or warrior-poet, ala' Gurney Hallack from Dune or Duncan Idaho from the same.

The issue with the combination is of course that while Bardic Knowledge goes very well with the Lore Warden's Knowledge (All) focus' one of the main portions of the Bard VMC, Inspire Courage, does not stack with Know Thy Enemy (Ex), nor does it make best use of action economy to do so as they both take a Standard Action to activate until levels 11/14 respectively.
Most of, if not all of the time, the Lore Warden will simply be running about with Inspire Courage active which sadly circumvents the point of both Swift Lore and Know Thy Enemy.

Still if you're looking for a lightly armored martial scholar Lore Warden (VMC Bard) is the way to go and I could see the combination being taken simply for the free Combat Expertise and bonus' to Maneuver's.

[Xuldarinar]

Are there any builds that would function well with, as well as create an interesting flavor for, the Investigator class?

[Psyren]

Are there any builds that would function well with, as well as create an interesting flavor for, the Investigator class?

VMC Wizard works here for Knowledge is Power, a smart familiar, a synergistic school like Foresight, and a helpful cantrip like Message. You can also go with Sorcerer for a bloodline without needing Cha (earlier in the thread I suggested some for Witch that should work here.) VMC rogue is also nice, because sneak attack stacks with Studied Strike, and you can trade out their trapfinding via an archetype like Mastermind and still have it, as well as Evasion/Uncanny Dodge. Finally there is also VMC Witch for a Hex or VMC Oracle for some nice revelations, which I'd have to go through.

[Pyromancer999]

Would Ghoul Sorcerer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/ghoul-sorcerer-bloodline) be a good VMC bloodline for a fighting class? Other than the 1st level power(and to an extent the 9th level power due to its reliance on the 1st) being hampered by a low Charisma, the rest seems like stuff that would be at least somewhat nice for a melee class.

The Harrowed Bloodline also seems doable, although not necessarily optimal, as a VMC Sorcerer bloodline, with the exception of the 1st level power being hindered a tad by low Charisma.

[grarrrg]

Would Ghoul Sorcerer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/ghoul-sorcerer-bloodline) be a good VMC bloodline for a fighting class? Other than the 1st level power(and to an extent the 9th level power due to its reliance on the 1st) being hampered by a low Charisma, the rest seems like stuff that would be at least somewhat nice for a melee class.

Eh, I'm still a big supporter of the Orc Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/orc-bloodline).
1st level power is mostly wasted.
3rd level power gets you Immune Fear and +2 Nat Armor
9th level gives you up to +6 Inherent STR
15th level is super-Enlarge Person.

[Snowbluff]

Okay okay... how about a Cleric with the Rage Domain, Anger Inquisition, and VMCed into barbarian?

[Molosse]

Okay okay... how about a Cleric with the Rage Domain, Anger Inquisition, and VMCed into barbarian?

How would a Cleric gain both the Rage Domain and Anger Inquisition?

[Psyren]

How would a Cleric gain both the Rage Domain and Anger Inquisition?

Clerics get two domains, so he'd be swapping one for the Inquisition I take it.

[Snowbluff]

Is he angry enough?

[Psyren]

Is he angry enough?

Oh right, build critique!

Anger and Rage both stack with your Barbarian rage, however they don't say they stack with each other. So your GM might have to weigh in here to determine your total number of rage rounds. In the best case scenario (they all stack) you would get: character level + (character level - 4) + (1/2 character level) + Con modifier + Wis modifier per day. However, I think what you would end up getting is: "character level + con modifier" plus the higer of ("1/2 character level + Wis") or ("character level -4"); in other words, the higher of your inquisitor rage or cleric rage, then add that to your VMC barbarian rage.

However it gets ruled, the main thing you will need is Mad Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/mad-magic-combat) so that you can continue to cast spells while keeping your rage benefits, and of course you will want to rage cycle. Other than that, this would be a flavorful and decently playable combo for a priest of Rovagug, Garagos or similar priests of a god with temper issues.

[Snowbluff]

Oh right, build critique!

Anger and Rage both stack with your Barbarian rage, however they don't say they stack with each other. So your GM might have to weigh in here to determine your total number of rage rounds. In the best case scenario (they all stack) you would get: character level + (character level - 4) + (1/2 character level) + Con modifier + Wis modifier per day. However, I think what you would end up getting is: "character level + con modifier" plus the higer of ("1/2 character level + Wis") or ("character level -4"); in other words, the higher of your inquisitor rage or cleric rage, then add that to your VMC barbarian rage.
I think you would be stuck with the two individual rages that all combine into one another when you get Barbarian rage.


However it gets ruled, the main thing you will need is Mad Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/mad-magic-combat) so that you can continue to cast spells while keeping your rage benefits, and of course you will want to rage cycle. Other than that, this would be a flavorful and decently playable combo for a priest of Rovagug, Garagos or similar priests of a god with temper issues.

Do I need Mad Magic if I just rage cycle? I can get Moment Clarity with one of the rage powers, though. Is there another good rage power I should be using?

Also, is there a St. Cuthbert equivalent deity, as in one that is good and grant Destruction? That way you can play a Samsaran and pick up Litany of Righteousness.

And then you can take Community Minded to keep the Morale bonus after your rage ends. Unlike Optimistic Gambler, it doesn't extend the effect, just the bonus.

And then if you have DSP go into Battle Templar to progress all of it while getting Maneuvers...

[Psyren]

Do I need Mad Magic if I just rage cycle? I can get Moment Clarity with one of the rage powers, though. Is there another good rage power I should be using?

Without Mad Magic, you can either MoC or rage cycle when you need to cast something - however, when you do you will lose your rage benefits (including the Constitution boost) which could put you in trouble. For instance, if you get very badly wounded and need to heal yourself, stopping rage to heal (without Mad Magic) could actually drop you into negatives and kill you.


Also, is there a St. Cuthbert equivalent deity, as in one that is good and grant Destruction? That way you can play a Samsaran and pick up Litany of Righteousness.

Ragathiel (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ragathiel) is LG and has Destruction.

[Snowbluff]

Without Mad Magic, you can either MoC or rage cycle when you need to cast something - however, when you do you will lose your rage benefits (including the Constitution boost) which could put you in trouble. For instance, if you get very badly wounded and need to heal yourself, stopping rage to heal (without Mad Magic) could actually drop you into negatives and kill you.
:smalleek:



Ragathiel (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ragathiel) is LG and has Destruction.

Oh, yes. It will be complete. 0u0

[Milo v3]

:smalleek:

... and that's why unchained barbarian exists. Stops rage cycling, and stops the "death by ending rage"... Still has issues though, like two-handed weapons....

[Psyren]

... and that's why unchained barbarian exists. Stops rage cycling, and stops the "death by ending rage"... Still has issues though, like two-handed weapons....

VMC Barbarian only works with regular rage by RAW. I'm all for the unchained barb too but if you're going VMC Barb you have to houserule that one in.

[Milo v3]

VMC Barbarian only works with regular rage by RAW. I'm all for the unchained barb too but if you're going VMC Barb you have to houserule that one in.

*Shrug* If you're going VMC Barb, your basically already using a houserule.

[Psyren]

*Shrug* If you're going VMC Barb, your basically already using a houserule.

By that logic, all archetypes are houserules and for that matter so is Unchained Barbarian :smalltongue:

[Milo v3]

By that logic, all archetypes are houserules and for that matter so is Unchained Barbarian :smalltongue:
Not all archetypes, since they're normal rules. Unchained barbarian, yeah, basically houserule, since it's in a book of houserules.

[Psyren]

Not all archetypes, since they're normal rules. Unchained barbarian, yeah, basically houserule, since it's in a book of houserules.

They're optional rules that require GM approval to implement, just like Unchained. If you diminish one you diminish the other.

[Milo v3]

They're optional rules that require GM approval to implement, just like Unchained. If you diminish one you diminish the other.

Really? The advanced players guide didn't portray them as variant rules last time I checked the chapter, weird.

[Psyren]

Variant, no, but they do say to ask your GM.

Anyway, you're free to call Unchained "houserules" if you like, just as I'm free to be glad most PF players I'm likely to end up playing with don't see first-party Paizo material that way.

[Snowbluff]

... and that's why unchained barbarian exists. Stops rage cycling, and stops the "death by ending rage"... Still has issues though, like two-handed weapons....

Meh, it's a downgrade for this build.

Speaking of which, I think maintaining the original Destruction domain might be a better option than the rage domain. Then I can Rage, maintain the +damage aura from Destruction, as well as any buffs.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

One of the big reasons I prefer the old barbarian is how rage can be versatile, like raging to get a strength check, fortitude save, or similar. And two-handers, yes. Its why I want to play a Paladin/VMC!Barbarian... along with picking up the Mercies to be able to rage cycle.

[Molosse]

In fairness to the two-hander thing you're only losing +1/+2/+4 damage. I mean it's a slight nerf but still :P.

As an aside how do people think the Vigilante class would go with a VMC? Being as it is a base template for 4 or-so unique classes.

For example:

An Avenger (VMC Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger)
A Warlock (VMC Magus/Wizard)
A Stalker (VMC Rogue)
Or a Zealot (VMC Inquisitor/Cleric/Paladin/Oracle)

Need to look at it in more detail but the above combinations would arguably push the Vigilante more towards it's Vigilante persona as opposed to it's social persona.


Oh right, build critique!

Anger and Rage both stack with your Barbarian rage, however they don't say they stack with each other. So your GM might have to weigh in here to determine your total number of rage rounds. In the best case scenario (they all stack) you would get: character level + (character level - 4) + (1/2 character level) + Con modifier + Wis modifier per day. However, I think what you would end up getting is: "character level + con modifier" plus the higer of ("1/2 character level + Wis") or ("character level -4"); in other words, the higher of your inquisitor rage or cleric rage, then add that to your VMC barbarian rage.

However it gets ruled, the main thing you will need is Mad Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/mad-magic-combat) so that you can continue to cast spells while keeping your rage benefits, and of course you will want to rage cycle. Other than that, this would be a flavorful and decently playable combo for a priest of Rovagug, Garagos or similar priests of a god with temper issues.

However I do have a slight quibble with this, both the Rage Domain and Anger Inquisitions state they stack with levels of Barbarian and one of the major discussions on VMC's has been in regards to do specific VMC's grant you "Levels" of the VMC'd class. In the case of a VMC Barbarian Rage's wording is: "Rage: At 3rd level, she gains the rage class feature for a number of rounds per day equal to her Constitution modifier + her character level."

If we are to argue that a VMC Barbarian grants you levels of Barbarian, this would also mean that VMC Fighter grants you the ability to take Fighter only feats and a VMC Bard would receive benefits when the PC uses a Banner of Ancient Kings. I would hold that this is not the case and instead VMC's simply grant Class features as opposed to making the character a, for example, level 20 Cavalier/Bard.

[Extra Anchovies]

An Avenger (VMC Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger)
A Warlock (VMC Magus/Wizard)
A Stalker (VMC Rogue)
Or a Zealot (VMC Inquisitor/Cleric/Paladin/Oracle)

Zealot [Inquisitor/Cleric/Paladin/Oracle] just looks like a way of being an even worse Inquisitor knockoff than base Zealot already is. Stalker [Rogue] is interesting, though. Hidden Strike and Sneak Attack do stack, after all.

[Xuldarinar]

How's about this one?

Dread Necromancer:

Add the wizard VMC to the Dread Class with the Nightmare Constructor archetype, selecting the Undead school. For the familiar, when one has a chance pick up the Improved Familiar feat for any familiar that can induce the shaken condition, such as the Screaming Beheaded or the Augur Kyton. If you don't feel throwing a feat at it, I'd suggest at least select the peacock for a bonus to Intimidate. Your horror should pick up the Undead Appearance evolution as soon as possible given thematics and you can then use Bolster on your horror in addition to any undead you may find under your control. Stat priorities remain the same as with the class and archetype, though as high an Intelligence score one can afford would be of great service as well, given it will provide you with additional uses of channeling and bolstering. If permissible, picking up the Craft Wondrous Item feat and pursuing lichdom would top things off quite nicely. Additionally, acquiring items (or mimicking spells with powers using independent research) to allow you to create and further handle undead would be of great use.

[Psyren]

Despite my general distaste for the Dread this seems decent, what arcane discovery would you take?



However I do have a slight quibble with this, both the Rage Domain and Anger Inquisitions state they stack with levels of Barbarian and one of the major discussions on VMC's has been in regards to do specific VMC's grant you "Levels" of the VMC'd class. In the case of a VMC Barbarian Rage's wording is: "Rage: At 3rd level, she gains the rage class feature for a number of rounds per day equal to her Constitution modifier + her character level."

If we are to argue that a VMC Barbarian grants you levels of Barbarian, this would also mean that VMC Fighter grants you the ability to take Fighter only feats and a VMC Bard would receive benefits when the PC uses a Banner of Ancient Kings. I would hold that this is not the case and instead VMC's simply grant Class features as opposed to making the character a, for example, level 20 Cavalier/Bard.

I agree it's not clear, though I personally see no problem parsing it has "you are treated as having levels of barbarian for the purposes of the rage class feature (since it says "character level") and nothing else." That would solve your issue because VMC Fighter doesn't let you treat your character level as a fighter level for anything, thus no fighter-only feats on a non-fighter.

[Xuldarinar]

Despite my general distaste for the Dread this seems decent, what arcane discovery would you take?

I thought I was forgetting something.

Thats a tough one to be honest. Most provide no benefit to you, and none truly compliment the flavor. Some are useful, just not as much as they could be in other builds. Truename, you'd want an outsider that inflicts fear effects, or in a perfect world one that can generate undead creatures for you to control with channeling. Arcane builder isn't bad if one is making items to cover their deficiencies. Just personally I think i'd pick Golem Constructor and pick up the ability to create bone golems, and find ways to emulate the spells needed. Though, picking up a feat actually might be an equally viable choice, craft wondrous item, if only to loosely mirror the Dread Necromancer class.





Edit:

On another note, I think the Barbarian VMC would work well with the dread's Fearmonger archetype for a tanking build, though it brings up the question regarding temp hp and stacking.