Paladin5/War Cleric 15?

[Snowbluff]

Am I reading the spell list rules right? Where you can add 1/2 your level and all of your cleric levels to determine spell slots?

What are the implications of this:
Would the five level dip disrupt 9 level spellcasting?
Are these spell slots considered paladin spell slots for smiting? The game doesn't seem to make a distinction.

[DireSickFish]

Am I reading the spell list rules right? Where you can add 1/2 your level and all of your cleric levels to determine spell slots?

What are the implications of this:
Would the five level dip disrupt 9 level spellcasting?
Are these spell slots considered paladin spell slots for smiting? The game doesn't seem to make a distinction.

You'd have the number of spell slots equal to a 17th(15+5/2=17.5) level caster so you would have 9th level spell slots. However since your a 15th level cleric you would only have access to 8th level spells and would have to cast a lower level spell in your level 9 slot. You can also use all of these spell slots for smiting.

When casting a Cleric Spell you would use wisdom as the casting stat and when casting paladin.

[Mr.Moron]

What I'd do at my table:


You have slots per day as a 17th total level caster per the multiclass table.
You can cast up to (Base) 2nd level paladin spells, and cast these from slots up to 9th level.
You can smite with spell slots of up to 2nd level.*
You can cast up to (Base) 8th level cleric spells, and cast these from slots up to 9th level.


Of these points I think only the "Smite with spell slots of up to 2nd level" is the only really controversial ruling here. Most of the others seem widely accepted.

[Yagyujubei]

What I'd do at my table:


You have slots per day as a 17th total level caster per the multiclass table.
You can cast up to (Base) 2nd level paladin spells, and cast these from slots up to 9th level.
You can smite with spell slots of up to 2nd level.*
You can cast up to (Base) 8th level cleric spells, and cast these from slots up to 9th level.


Of these points I think only the "Smite with spell slots of up to 2nd level" is the only really controversial ruling here. Most of the others seem widely accepted.

yeah i would rule the other way. you only know 2nd lvl pally spells, but all your slots count as pally.

[Mr.Moron]

yeah i would rule the other way. you only know 2nd lvl pally spells, but all your slots count as pally.

Just be clear I'd rule this way because it makes it so that making a heavy investment in paladin is what makes you best at smiting. Rather than Paladin 20 being vastly outclassed by Paladin 2/WhateverCaster 18.

[Snowbluff]

You'd have the number of spell slots equal to a 17th(15+5/2=17.5) level caster so you would have 9th level spell slots. However since your a 15th level cleric you would only have access to 8th level spells and would have to cast a lower level spell in your level 9 slot. Okay, got it. It says to at the start of the section. Sorry. :smallsmile:

EDIT: If I were to do this build, which is better? Oath of Enmity or Sacred Weapon from the paladin oaths? I'm inclined to go for Enmity.

[Yagyujubei]

Just be clear I'd rule this way because it makes it so that making a heavy investment in paladin is what makes you best at smiting. Rather than Paladin 20 being vastly outclassed by Paladin 2/WhateverCaster 18.

yeah I see your point as well, but my thinking is that paladin gets so many other incredible abilities that you would be missing out on. if you want to be a 1 trick pony smiting machine then I'll let you, but if you want all the auras and oath features you have to commit to paladin levels. There's plenty to paladin as a class beyond smiting.

it should be noted that I give paladins a couple tweaks. I make cleansing touch another 10/30ft arua and give them slightly better casting as well. I scale their slots to 4/4/3/3/3 at level 20 rather than 4/3/3/3/2 so at my table there would be more reason to stay paladin all the way to 20

[Jurai]

If Good, Devotion. If Neutral, Vengeance. If Evil, Oathbreaker.

Owait! I can be a Chaotic Evil Devotion Paladin, were I so inclined, so Oathbreaker all the way.

[Mandragola]

I think this kind of build - like many multiclassing builds, looks a lot less good once you fully understand the rules for spells. The fact that the spells you can cast lag so far behind other casters really will stand out right through your adventuring career.

As a cleric you'll effectively be 5 levels behind anyone else. That's huge. At level 20 you're kind of ok, but you suffer a lot before that.

So basically I think a single-class paladin or cleric would be much more fun.

[Snowbluff]

I think this kind of build - like many multiclassing builds, looks a lot less good once you fully understand the rules for spells. The fact that the spells you can cast lag so far behind other casters really will stand out right through your adventuring career.

I think this kind of build - like many multiclassing builds, looks a lot less good once you fully understand the rules for spells.

understand the rules for spells.
http://www.allure.com/beauty-trends/blogs/daily-beauty-reporter/2013/06/26/man-looking-at-his-computer-screen.jpg


As a cleric you'll effectively be 5 levels behind anyone else. That's huge. At level 20 you're kind of ok, but you suffer a lot before that.

So basically I think a single-class paladin or cleric would be much more fun.

It depends on what you're doing. For example, a Tempest Cleric can still get a huge number of damage dice from Call Lightning thanks to the way that spell interacts with your slots.

[Chronos]

Note that the Divine Smite class feature caps at +5d8 damage, no matter what slot you use for it (odd, since you hit that cap with level 4 slots, and even a straight paladin gets up to level 5), and most of the smitey spells don't scale with slot at all (the two exceptions are the otherwise lackluster Branding Smite and Searing Smite).

[Snowbluff]

Note that the Divine Smite class feature caps at +5d8 damage, no matter what slot you use for it (odd, since you hit that cap with level 4 slots, and even a straight paladin gets up to level 5).

You get more higher level slots sooner, and you get +2d8 from the Divine Strike, and an extra attack as a bonus action from the war domain that stacks with extra attack.

[DireSickFish]

If I was doing this build I would take Paladin straight to 5 first for the extra attack then start going cleric. The war cleric ability will then let you have 3 attacks in a round, all of which you can use smites on. It has incredible burst. The level 8 cleric ability is comparable to the lvl11 paladin ability so you'll get your bonus damage at character level 13 instead of 11, which is fine as you'll have more spell slots and can keep bursting.

Strength is going to be your main stat oddly enough since you want to make sure the smites hit. I'd recommend Divine Favor for concentration so you don't have to waste bonus actions moving hunters mark to different targets and can use that bonus action for War cleric extra attacks.

Wisdom should be second and maxed second because you will have the most cleric spells so avoid casting paladin spells that require saves.

[Draken]

You get more higher level slots sooner, and you get +2d8 from the Divine Strike, and an extra attack as a bonus action from the war domain that stacks with extra attack.

Only once on your turn, making it considerably inferior to improved divine smite, specially if you have the war domain's extra attack.

[Clistenes]

Just be clear I'd rule this way because it makes it so that making a heavy investment in paladin is what makes you best at smiting. Rather than Paladin 20 being vastly outclassed by Paladin 2/WhateverCaster 18.

A paladin can't do more than 5d8 radiant damage with his/her smite attack, so the spell slot above 4 are probably better employed to cast spells. And the Cleric/Paladin would need high Str, Con, Wis and Cha, receives on average an Ability Score Upgrade less than a pure Paladin and ability raising magic items are are difficult to find, impossible to buy, and you can use only three at a time.

I think the disadvantage of having to distribute your ability score points among many abilities more than make for the plentiful spell slots.

[Snowbluff]

A paladin can't do more than 5d8 radiant damage with his/her smite attack, so the spell slot above 4 are probably better employed to cast spells. And the Cleric/Paladin would need high Str, Con, Wis and Cha, receives on average an Ability Score Upgrade less than a pure Paladin and ability raising magic items are are difficult to find, impossible to buy, and you can use only three at a time.



Cleric spells so avoid casting paladin spells that require saves.

This. Clistenes, I fail to see how I benefit from from having a good charisma score. Str/Wis/Con at worst. :smalltongue:


Only once on your turn, making it considerably inferior to improved divine smite, specially if you have the war domain's extra attack.

It determines its use after I hit, and it doesn't eat spell slots. So it's pretty much >75% effective. :)

[Mandragola]

http://www.allure.com/beauty-trends/blogs/daily-beauty-reporter/2013/06/26/man-looking-at-his-computer-screen.jpg


It depends on what you're doing. For example, a Tempest Cleric can still get a huge number of damage dice from Call Lightning thanks to the way that spell interacts with your slots.

It depends how you level up.

If you go paladin 5 first, then you only get call lightning at level 10. At that point even casting it at a higher level hardly seems amazing, compared to what other people can do. And also, if you're using your action to cast a spell, you'd be far better off being a full caster with access to 5th level spells - rather than having two attacks a round as a paladin. On the other hand the paladin would have access to 3rd level spells already by that point, along with other cool class features, while getting full ASI progression and improved divine smite at 11th.

It might be a bit less painful to go cleric 5 first, then paladin 5, then carry on levelling as cleric. But honestly I do still think that you'd be better off with a single-class version of either one rather than splitting the two. I honestly think that applies to all casters.

[DivisibleByZero]

It determines its use after I hit, and it doesn't eat spell slots. So it's pretty much >75% effective. :)

He's referring to the level 8 War Domain's Divine Strike (+1d8 once per turn, +2d8 once per turn at level 14, which is now 19 for you) to the level 11 Paladin's Improved Divine Smite (which is a static +1d8 on every attack).
They basically wash. The straight Pally gets it faster, as his applies to both of his attacks right at level 11. The multiclass doesn't see the same number of d8's until 19th level.

And the difference between a Pally 20 and a Pally 5 /. Cleric 15 is exactly four spell slots, none of which can be used for smiting because they're levels 6+ (one each of 6-9).
The only real difference is that the multiclass gets those slots a little faster.

[Clistenes]

This. Clistenes, I fail to see how I benefit from from having a good charisma score. Str/Wis/Con at worst. :smalltongue:

Aura of Protection: +Cha Bonus to all saves to yourself and any ally within a 10 ft radius. This is one of the best features of the class.

[DivisibleByZero]

Aura of Protection: +Cha Bonus to all saves to yourself and any ally within a 10 ft radius. This is one of the best features of the class.

Not applicable in a 15/5. It would need to be a 13/7, which would lose the 9th level slot and the 8th level prepared.

[Clistenes]

Not applicable in a 15/5. It would need to be a 13/7, which would lose the 9th level slot and the 8th level prepared.

You get Aura of Protection at level 6. A Multiclass Paladin 6/Cleric 14 gets 9th level spell slots.

But anyways, you get Channel Divinity at level 3, and it's Charisma-based.

[DireSickFish]

You get Aura of Protection at level 6. A Multiclass Paladin 6/Cleric 14 gets 9th level spell slots.

But anyways, you get Channel Divinity at level 3, and it's Charisma-based.

Even with vengeance paladins advantage thingie?

[Person_Man]

Note that there is also one Smite spell (I forget which one) which can be cast out of higher level slots to add more damage. IIn addition, more spell slots means you can Smite more often per day. So Paladin 2+/Full Caster X will typically have better burst damage output then strait Paladin. (Though not always. The precise build matters).

The Paladin's Auras are pretty awesome. So I typically suggest Paladin 7/Full Caster 13. You end up with slightly less at-will damage, but better burst damage and a lot more spell options.

Alternatively, higher level spells typically deal more damage and have better effects then lower level spells, even when they're cast out of higher level slots. So strait Cleric will typically be a lot more flexible then Paladin/Cleric. He'll just have lower at-will damage and high level spells in place of the Paladin's Auras.

I haven't seen a compelling reason to play strait Paladin at very high levels, though that's a problem shared by many non-full casters options.

[DivisibleByZero]

You get Aura of Protection at level 6. A Multiclass Paladin 6/Cleric 14 gets 9th level spell slots.

So I mixed up Auras. That changes nothing, He's talking about a 15/5 split. AoP is not relevant to the discussion.

[Snowbluff]

You get Aura of Protection at level 6. A Multiclass Paladin 6/Cleric 14 gets 9th level spell slots.

But anyways, you get Channel Divinity at level 3, and it's Charisma-based.


So I mixed up Auras. That changes nothing, He's talking about a 15/5 split. AoP is not relevant to the discussion.Yeah, the divinity will probably be the veageance one. The Cha to saves is a good option, though, but you'd lose 8th level spells.

What good is Con is your don't need it for saves? :o

[Clistenes]

Even with vengeance paladins advantage thingie?

Nope. Vow of Enmity isn't Charisma-based, but I think Abjure Enemy is.

By the way, I'm not sure a Paladin 6/Cleric 14 or a Paladin 5/Cleric 15 couldn't memorize 9th level spells.

The example they give in the handbook is a Ranger 4/Wizard 3, who has 3rd level spell slots but doesn't know any 3rd level spell.
A Ranger picks its spells like a Bard or Sorcerer as it levels up, and those must be of a level it has spell slots, and it can't learn more unless it levels up as Ranger again, so he knows only 1st level Ranger spells.
The character in the example hasn't copied any 3rd level Wizard spell in his spellbook, and the text in the Wizard class's section says "Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table."

Both the Ranger and the Wizard pick their spells when leveling up, the character can't pick more Ranger spells because it doesn't level up as Ranger, and the text in the Wizard section explicitly says that the Wizard table shows which level are the spells he can develope on his own (but he can copy spells of any level).

What if the Ranger/Wizard finds some 3rd level scrolls? Then he can copy then and is able to cast 3rd level spells.

However, Paladins and Clerics already know all their spell list, and the text in the Cleric and Paladin sections say "You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots." and "You prepare the list of paladin spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the paladin spell list. When you do so, choose a number of paladin spells equal to your Charisma modifier + half your paladin level, rounded down (minimum o f one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."...so the only limit is having spell slots.

[DireSickFish]

Nope. Vow of Enmity isn't Charisma-based, but I think Abjure Enemy is.

By the way, I'm not sure a Paladin 6/Cleric 14 or a Paladin 5/Cleric 15 couldn't memorize 9th level spells.

The example they give in the handbook is a Ranger 4/Wizard 3, able to cast 3rd level spells.
A Ranger picks its spells like a Bard or Sorcerer as it levels up, and those must be of a level it has spell slots, and it can't learn more unless it levels up as Ranger again, so he knows only 1st level Ranger spells.
The character in the example hasn't copied any 3rd level Wizard spell in his spellbook, and the text in the Wizard class's section says "Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table."

Both the Ranger and the Wizard pick their spells when leveling up, the character can't pick more Ranger spells because it doesn't level up as Ranger, and the text in the Wizard section explicitly says that the Wizard table shows which level are the spells he can develope on his own (but he can copy spells of any level).

What if the Ranger/Wizard finds some 3rd level scrolls? Then he can copy then and is able to cast 3rd level spells.

However, Paladins and Clerics already know all their spell list, and the text in the Cleric and Paladin sections say "You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots." and "You prepare the list of paladin spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the paladin spell list. When you do so, choose a number of paladin spells equal to your Charisma modifier + half your paladin level, rounded down (minimum o f one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."...so the only limit is having spell slots.

Can we not have this argument here? It's going to eat the thread.

[Clistenes]

Can we not have this argument here? It's going to eat the thread.

OK. I just wish they had been more clear. It seems as if they purposelly worded it so both interpretations were valid.


What good is Con is your don't need it for saves? :o

More hit points. As a Paladin you will expected to be the shield meat doing the melee damage.

[Snowbluff]

OK. I just wish they had been more clear. It seems as if they purposelly worded it so both interpretations were valid.
I'm erring on the side that assumes when they say "and prepare," they mean "don't even think about it, you munchkin." ;p


More hit points. As a Paladin you will expected to be the shield meat doing the melee damage.

Wait... do we get con to HP per level? Ugh... these ability notes hardly help.

[DireSickFish]

Wait... do we get con to HP per level? Ugh... these ability notes hardly help.

Under every class will list hitpoints, at level 1 it's max HD + con mod. On level up you either roll or take average with con mod.

I think that's why they made it have no related skill, it's already important to every character in that it determines HP.

[holygroundj]

Con also effects concentration saves, so it's pretty important for the concentration spells you'll cast as a cleric.

[Malifice]

Just be clear I'd rule this way because it makes it so that making a heavy investment in paladin is what makes you best at smiting. Rather than Paladin 20 being vastly outclassed by Paladin 2/WhateverCaster 18.

I did this:

Divine smite does not require a spell slot to use. It inflicts a fixed 2d8 damage at 2nd (Paladin) level, 3d8 damage at 5th level, 4d8 damage at 9th level, 5d8 damage at 13th level, and 6d8 damage at 17th level. The paladin can use divine smite twice per short rest. This increases to three times per short rest at 9th level, and four times per short rest at 19th level.

I disentangled it from spell slots alltogether and tied it into class level. Made it a short rest mechanic so Paladins have stuff to do with spells and a reason to short rest other than healing.

[Snowbluff]

Under every class will list hitpoints, at level 1 it's max HD + con mod. On level up you either roll or take average with con mod.

I think that's why they made it have no related skill, it's already important to every character in that it determines HP.
Oh, it's definitely why it has no skills. In 3.5, Constitution gave HP, Concentration for mages, and Fortitude saves, and it was pretty much the best stat there, too.

Con also effects concentration saves, so it's pretty important for the concentration spells you'll cast as a cleric.

Yeah, so if you're taking Cha and the sixth level of paladin, you don't need Con quite as much because Cha is being added to your save.