Spells and Spell Slots

[Easy_Lee]

So the spell and spell slot rules are a bit funky. I thought I'd post this here to make sure my understanding is correct:

Spell slots are class-less. You may cast any spell you know out of any spell slot you possess. This includes warlock spell slots.
Spells are always cast using the casting stat of the class which granted the spell.

[SharkForce]

sounds right. are there any odd corner-cases that made you think otherwise?

[Daishain]

1: yes.
2: to be a little more accurate, the casting stat is determined by the source of the spell. Certain races and feats grants spells, and they'll tell you what ability is in use in the description.

One more... interesting detail, spellslot progression stacks in most cases. A Wizard4/Sorcerer6 has exactly the same number and level of spell slots as a wizard10 or sorcerer10. Half casters like the paladin also stack, but more slowly, replace the sorcerer6 above with a paladin6, and spellslots are equivalent to that of a wizard7. A warlock's pact magic slots are the one exception, they don't stack at all with others.

[Easy_Lee]

sounds right. are there any odd corner-cases that made you think otherwise?

Different casters multiclassing with warlock was the part that I was unsure of. For example, a paladin 6 / Warlock 14 should be able to smite with warlock slots. I had an idea for something like that and wanted to be sure that I was right.

[Daishain]

Different casters multiclassing with warlock was the part that I was unsure of. For example, a paladin 6 / Warlock 14 should be able to smite with warlock slots. I had an idea for something like that and wanted to be sure that I was right.
Developers specifically said yes to that one.

[ChubbyRain]

So the spell and spell slot rules are a bit funky. I thought I'd post this here to make sure my understanding is correct:

Spell slots are class-less. You may cast any spell you know out of any spell slot you possess. This includes warlock spell slots.
Spells are always cast using the casting stat of the class which granted the spell.


I've seen number 2 work a different way, whichever class you have the most levels in determines your casting ability score. Ties go to the first casting class in your progression.

So a Wizard 4/Cleric 10 would cast all spells off Wis.

Simplifies rules and doesn't really make anyone more powerful. Maybe some fringe cases but that's true for everything.

[Clistenes]

The problem is, the example they give in the book is kind of misleading. As I said in another thread:


Nope. Vow of Enmity isn't Charisma-based, but I think Abjure Enemy is.

By the way, I'm not sure a Paladin 6/Cleric 14 or a Paladin 5/Cleric 15 couldn't memorize 9th level spells.

The example they give in the handbook is a Ranger 4/Wizard 3, who has 3rd level spell slots but doesn't know any 3rd level spell.
A Ranger picks its spells like a Bard or Sorcerer as it levels up, and those must be of a level it has spell slots, and it can't learn more unless it levels up as Ranger again, so he knows only 1st level Ranger spells.
The character in the example hasn't copied any 3rd level Wizard spell in his spellbook, and the text in the Wizard class's section says "Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table."

Both the Ranger and the Wizard pick their spells when leveling up, the character can't pick more Ranger spells because it doesn't level up as Ranger, and the text in the Wizard section explicitly says that the Wizard table shows which level are the spells he can develope on his own (but he can copy spells of any level).

What if the Ranger/Wizard finds some 3rd level scrolls? Then he can copy then and is able to cast 3rd level spells.

However, Paladins and Clerics already know all their spell list, and the text in the Cleric and Paladin sections say "You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots." and "You prepare the list of paladin spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the paladin spell list. When you do so, choose a number of paladin spells equal to your Charisma modifier + half your paladin level, rounded down (minimum o f one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."...so the only limit is having spell slots.

Many people fear that allowing a multiclassed Bard, Sorcerer or Ranger to pick spells of any level it can cast, or allow a multiclassed Druid, Cleric or Paladin to memorize spells of any level it can cast, or a multiclassed Wizard to copy and memorize spells of any level it can cast would make certain combinations too powerful by giving them too many spells.

I don't think so. The need of raising more than one spellcasting ability combined with the lesser amount of Ability Score Upgrades that multiclassed characters get would take care of that.

Bard/Sorcerers, Paladin/Bards, Paladin/Sorcerers, Cleric/Druids, Ranger/Druids and Cleric/Rangers use the same spellcasting ability for all of its classes, but:

1.-A Bard/Sorcerer or a Sorcerer/Bard isn't going to get more spells than a pure Bard. And both a pure Sorcerer and a pure Bard can re-pick its spells when it levels up, and can take them of any level, so the multiclass character isn't really more potent.

2.-A Bard or Sorcerer who changes class to Paladin can't learn more arcane spells until it takes another level as Bard or Sorcerer.

3.-A Paladin who multiclasses to Bard or Sorcerer...okay, this one has all the Paladin's spell list and many high level Bard or Sorcerer spells, but Paladin spells are low level and focused towards melee, it knows less arcane spells than a pure Sorcerer or Bard, and loses many awesome class features. And many Paladin spells require Concentration. And you can't cast many arcane spells during melee...etc.

4.-Poor Rangers need all you can give them.

5.-Cleric/Druids could potentially be overpowered if you let them memorize separately both set of spells. This is about the only combination that would have grossly overpowered spellcasting, but you could just say that you can't be both (both are kind of priests from different religions) or that you can memorize only Wisdom Modifier + Character Level spells instead of Wisdom Modifier + Cleric Level & Wisdom Modifier + Druid Level spells.

[asorel]

The problem is, the example they give in the book is kind of misleading. As I said in another thread:



Many people fear that allowing a multiclassed Bard, Sorcerer or Ranger to pick spells of any level it can cast, or allow a multiclassed Druid, Cleric or Paladin to memorize spells of any level it can cast, or a multiclassed Wizard to copy and memorize spells of any level it can cast would make certain combinations too powerful by giving them too many spells.

I don't think so. The need of raising more than one spellcasting ability combined with the lesser amount of Ability Score Upgrades that multiclassed characters get would take care of that.

Bard/Sorcerers, Paladin/Bards, Paladin/Sorcerers, Cleric/Druids, Ranger/Druids and Cleric/Rangers use the same spellcasting ability for all of its classes, but:

1.-A Bard/Sorcerer or a Sorcerer/Bard isn't going to get more spells than a pure Bard. And both a pure Sorcerer and a pure Bard can re-pick its spells when it levels up, and can take them of any level, so the multiclass character isn't really more potent.

2.-A Bard or Sorcerer who changes class to Paladin can't learn more arcane spells until it takes another level as Bard or Sorcerer.

3.-A Paladin who multiclasses to Bard or Sorcerer...okay, this one has all the Paladin's spell list and many high level Bard or Sorcerer spells, but Paladin spells are low level and focused towards melee, it knows less arcane spells than a pure Sorcerer or Bard, and loses many awesome class features. And many Paladin spells require Concentration. And you can't cast many arcane spells during melee...etc.

4.-Poor Rangers need all you can give them.

5.-Cleric/Druids could potentially be overpowered if you let them memorize separately both set of spells. This is about the only combination that would have grossly overpowered spellcasting, but you could just say that you can't be both (both are kind of priests from different religions) or that you can memorize only Wisdom Modifier + Character Level spells instead of Wisdom Modifier + Cleric Level & Wisdom Modifier + Druid Level spells.

My DM had a similar sentiment regarding multiclassed spells. Given the class features and ASIs on which I miss out, he figured that there was no problem with my character getting 9th level spells when everyone else got 9th level spells. Being a MAD Wizard/Sorcerer (long story) means this isn't exactly a power grab, either.

[Ashrym]

I've seen number 2 work a different way, whichever class you have the most levels in determines your casting ability score. Ties go to the first casting class in your progression.

So a Wizard 4/Cleric 10 would cast all spells off Wis.

Simplifies rules and doesn't really make anyone more powerful. Maybe some fringe cases but that's true for everything.

That could be a workable house rule. It's definitely simpler.

I don't like the casting ability score changing as one class exceeds another an would prefer the MC rules as written.

[asorel]

I've seen number 2 work a different way, whichever class you have the most levels in determines your casting ability score. Ties go to the first casting class in your progression.

So a Wizard 4/Cleric 10 would cast all spells off Wis.

Simplifies rules and doesn't really make anyone more powerful. Maybe some fringe cases but that's true for everything.

I can see that working, though I would ensure that the multiclass requirements for both classes are still met.