What's the worst-designed PrC from a mechanical standpoint?

[annulus]

I've been flipping through books, and happened upon the green star adept, which makes me cringe a little, but I can't image it's anywhere near to worst?

[tadkins]

For mechanical? Probably Risen Martyr. It's end ability is that you're done with the game.

It's great for flavor and fluff though.

[Troacctid]

How about those entry requirements on Invisible Blade? Nothing like Far Shot and Point Blank Shot for your melee-focused prestige class.

Edit: And Order of the Bow Initiate. Yeah, sure, I'd better take Rapid Shot so that I can get better at never using Rapid Shot.

[Karl Aegis]

I'm going with Reaping Mauler. It makes you worse at its shtick.

[AvatarVecna]

I've been flipping through books, and happened upon the green star adept, which makes me cringe a little, but I can't image it's anywhere near to worst?

The Iron Chef competition is based on PrCs like that. Two of my personal "favorites" are called "Fleet Runner of Ehlonna" and "Thunder Guide" (IIRC).

[Extra Anchovies]

Ur-Priest is a divine-spellcasting PrC that requires you not have any ability to cast divine spells. It's an easy fix (change the prerequisite to say that you can't have any divine casting other than that granted by Ur-Priest levels), but it's still there.

As far as contradictory requirement-benefit loops go, though, I prefer Dragon Disciple. It requires that you be neither a dragon nor a half-dragon to enter the class. However, as a capstone you gain the Half-Dragon template. This means you no longer meet the class's prerequisites, and you lose all benefits including the Half-Dragon template. Since you're no longer a half-dragon, you meet the prerequisites again, and regain all class features... including the Half-Dragon template.

(special thanks to Ur-Priest for pointing both of these out to me the other day in that Precocious Apprentice thread)

[With a box]

from Completely Dysfunctional Handbook [3.5] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5)

Apostle of Peace : Entry mentions use of protective magic items; character is prevented by Vow of Poverty, a pre-req of Apostle of Peace
And Runescarred Berserker(UA) is impossiable for qualify because it need two regional feats from different places

[Chronos]

Some of these aren't really contenders. Risen Martyr isn't removed from the game; he just goes to Heaven. It's not like Plane Shifting back to the material plane (or wherever you want to go) is difficult. And losing the prerequisites for Ur-Priest or Dragon Disciple doesn't matter, since neither of those classes is from Complete Warrior or Complete Arcane.

Personally, I'm going to nominate most of the full-casting prestige classes, like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or Fatespinner. Giving a base class a bunch of new abilities, without taking anything away in return, is a terrible design. You should always have to choose between staying in your base class or prestiging out, and it should always be a meaningful choice.

[Jormengand]

Of those that you can actually play, I nominate the Disciple of the Word for trying to combine the truenamer and the monk by advancing neither of their class features.

[AvatarVecna]

Ur-Priest is a divine-spellcasting PrC that requires you not have any ability to cast divine spells. It's an easy fix (change the prerequisite to say that you can't have any divine casting other than that granted by Ur-Priest levels), but it's still there.

Actually, that's not quite true: the Ur-Priest PrC requires that you either have no prior divine casting, or that you give up said prior divine casting. Probably the easiest entry (and the intended one) is coming from ex-Cleric. Mechanically, a Cleric has no reason to aim for Ur-Priest, since it's objectively worse in just about every way (except from the possibility of 9th lvl spells at lvl 15, which isn't a huge upgrade, since you get so few spells). Savage Bard makes a good entry (especially if you Mystic Theurge the two, and especially if you then go into Sublime Chord right before you Mystic Theurge and Ultimate Magus that with the previous two classes). Monk 2 gets the saves easily, as well; throw it on a skillful build and entry at lvl 6 is assured. Of course, the classic build is Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge X, but that's getting off-topic. My point is that Ur-Priest has enough fantastic builds that it isn't really terrible, even from a design standpoint.

Fleet Runner of Ehlonna, on the other hand...well, let's put it this way:

It requires divine casting...and grants 5/10 casting progression (and only at the even levels at that).

It has a bad Reflex save...and grants Improved Evasion.

It gives you Shot on the Run for free...and pounce.

It's based around being the fastest there is...and grants you heavy armor proficiency.

In a world where direct combat is the easiest/most obvious way to level up...it grants 4 class features entirely focused on running away.

The best entry classes are, in order, Druid, Ranger, and Cleric...which is why the assumed entry is Cleric.

It is...the most confused Prestige Class in the world.

[Pex]

Some of these aren't really contenders. Risen Martyr isn't removed from the game; he just goes to Heaven. It's not like Plane Shifting back to the material plane (or wherever you want to go) is difficult. And losing the prerequisites for Ur-Priest or Dragon Disciple doesn't matter, since neither of those classes is from Complete Warrior or Complete Arcane.

Personally, I'm going to nominate most of the full-casting prestige classes, like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or Fatespinner. Giving a base class a bunch of new abilities, without taking anything away in return, is a terrible design. You should always have to choose between staying in your base class or prestiging out, and it should always be a meaningful choice.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is a nice prestige class but has terrible prerequisites. You need Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Abjuration, a school with very few saving throws, the first of which you can get is a 4th level spell, Dismissal, which while not a bad spell has nothing to do with the prestige class. Those feats exist because Prismatic Sphere is an Abjuration spell with a saving throw that fits the theme.

As for a horrible prestige class there's Shining Blade of Hieroneous. <shudder>

[Amphetryon]

Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Drow Judicator
Shining Blade of Heironious

[The Viscount]

Some of these aren't really contenders. Risen Martyr isn't removed from the game; he just goes to Heaven. It's not like Plane Shifting back to the material plane (or wherever you want to go) is difficult. And losing the prerequisites for Ur-Priest or Dragon Disciple doesn't matter, since neither of those classes is from Complete Warrior or Complete Arcane.


Many DMs play with the CWar rules applying to all PrCs. Risen Martyr heavily implies you're not supposed to want to come back.

I'll toss in Emancipated Spawn. It's a class that makes you waste 3 levels to gain back the class features and feats you had when alive. That's right you have to spend those 3 levels as a normal undead with useless HD. It's painful, especially since the existence of monster classes mean you can do this the other way around, if you must.

Initiate of Pistis Sophia is supremely awful, because there's only I think like 5 means of entry in order to finish the class before level 20, and they involve complete dedication to this PrC, and Vow of Poverty is required for several.

Bladesinger is supremely awful because it's outdated. It's difficult to enter, and all but 1 of its class features of note (Int to AC) are granted by Duskblade, which came later.

Cipher Adept is one of the worst classes in existence, and it's my nomination for this one. It does a supreme amount of nothing. It does a supreme amount of nothing, and there's no way to build into or from it. Even Iron Chef couldn't really make anything of it.

[Doctor Awkward]

Reaping Mauler probably gets my vote as well. Probably nothing will top a class that goes out of its way to make you worse at the thing you are specializing in.

Pale Master was always weird for me as well. It's a 9/10 arcane casting class with d4 hit dice, requires, Skill Focus Knowledge religion (ew), and gives you a bunch of melee abilities, and death immunities. Well that's nice and all, but probably not something I want on my primary caster. Can make a subpar gish PrC, I suppose.

Quori Nightmare always pissed me off too. Every single ability that class gets is a Mind-Affecting fear effect. So much of D&D is just completely immune to the entire class.

[Troacctid]

Quori Nightmare always pissed me off too. Every single ability that class gets is a Mind-Affecting fear effect. So much of D&D is just completely immune to the entire class.

Hey, that's not fair. First off, Nightmare Shroud isn't mind-affecting or a fear effect. Second, it also advances psionics. You only lose one level of manifesting for your Quori Nightmare abilities. They're pretty potent when they do work, and when they don't work, you can still fall back on your other powers. It also gives you a little bump in skill points to make it more appealing. I think it's a perfectly acceptable design.

[AvatarVecna]

Reaping Mauler probably gets my vote as well. Probably nothing will top a class that goes out of its way to make you worse at the thing you are specializing in.

Pale Master was always weird for me as well. It's a 9/10 arcane casting class with d4 hit dice, requires, Skill Focus Knowledge religion (ew), and gives you a bunch of melee abilities, and death immunities. Well that's nice and all, but probably not something I want on my primary caster. Can make a subpar gish PrC, I suppose.

Quori Nightmare always pissed me off too. Every single ability that class gets is a Mind-Affecting fear effect. So much of D&D is just completely immune to the entire class.

These PrCs suck, because they're slightly unoptimal for T1 casters to take!

[Doctor Awkward]

Hey, that's not fair. First off, Nightmare Shroud isn't mind-affecting or a fear effect. Second, it also advances psionics. You only lose one level of manifesting for your Quori Nightmare abilities. They're pretty potent when they do work, and when they don't work, you can still fall back on your other powers. It also gives you a little bump in skill points to make it more appealing. I think it's a perfectly acceptable design.

There's actually no Psion discipline that doesn't lose at least one class skill with Quori Nightmare. Kineticist really loses nothing, but compare to Nomad, who loses everything.

In fact, Kineticist is the only discipline that gets Intimidate (for Nightmare Shroud), so it's really the only one who would be interested in the class at all, other than maybe a Wilder.

Given that you lose access to your psionic focus for the duration of the shroud, I'd be hard-pressed to call it any kind of saving grace, especially for such meager benefits.

And not using the class as a fallback doesn't help the argument that it isn't poorly designed. It's like playing a rogue, but instead of getting only half your sneak attack dice with Penetrating Strike, you just sit there.

[Doctor Awkward]

These PrCs suck, because they're slightly significantly unoptimal for T1 casters the intended classes to take!


Fixed that for you.

Try harder next time.

[AvatarVecna]

Fixed that for you.

Try harder next time.

Oh, you mean Pale Master is significantly worse than straight wizard? Why? Because you give up a single caster level? Because you're forced to take several ranks in a knowledge skill that governs knowledge of the monsters you specialize in leading? It's a gish PrC giving you undead immunities, minions, and 9/10 casting progression; that's not significantly worse than wizard. It's a slight downgrade at best, and while it's certainly not quite as good as straight wizard (not giving up caster levels is the first rule of optimization for a reason), it's hardly terrible enough to be listed alongside such dead ringers as Reaping Mauler, Disciple of the Word, and Risen Martyr. That's my point: it's almost definitely a downgrade for a wizard, but being T2-/T1+ instead of being T1- is hardly anything to complain about when the PrCs this thread is bemoaning are competing with a Prestige Class that tries to theurge Monk and Truenamer, and does terribly at that.

Are there full caster PrCs that belong here? Sure, but they belong because they have no idea what they want to be, or they directly make you worse at the thing they claim to specialize in. Pale Master insists on making you a master Necromancer, complete with partial undead transformation. It's thematic, it's mechanically useful, and it doesn't even gimp your casting they way most gishes do (see: Spellsword, Battle Sorcerer, Nature's Warrior, etc.).

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the inner workings of psionics to determine whether your complaints about the Quori Nightmare are as pedantic as your complaints about the Pale Master, so I'll let that one remain for someone more knowledgeable than I to smack down.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think mystic theurge is really boring, which is a part of bad design. If you want to do something with theurgy, at least allow arcane and divine casting to synergise a bit. True necromancers have the same problem. Oddly enough, the yathrinshee, while normally a terrible class (you have to be drow, of all things), actually has a neat class feature - all your caster levels stack for necromancy spells. Good for controlling large numbers of undead - circle magic and consumptive field on as many progressions as possible, please!

Also, any class which requires Toughness, or Weapon Focus, without actually doing anything related. Weapon Focus is only acceptable for things like Exotic Weapon Master and Kensai. Toughness is (or would be) only acceptable for... War Hulk? It's only a small part of the overall design of the prestige class, of course, but I like to think that people can tell, in-universe, the difference between elite soldier A (human ftr 2, 4 toughness feats) and elite soldier B (the same, but with power attack, martial study, martial stance and wild cohort, or something).

[Sith_Happens]

As for a horrible prestige class there's Shining Blade of Hieroneous. <shudder>

This. Trust me, this class is the winner. We once had a thread attempting to come up with a build that isn't worse off taking Shining Blade of Hieroneous levels than it would be continuing any of the classes it used to qualify. Turns out this can only be done using NPC classes.

[Telok]

Master Inquisitive

Five levels of medium BaB, weak saves, and the first four give you two crappy once a day SLAs, two crappy bonus feats, and some "friends". Friends that you can only talk to once a week, have to pay money to, and do favors for. These aren't friends, they're low grade, non-combat mercenaries.

On top of that you get to blow a feat on Investigate. Which lets you think about what you find with a Search check. But wait! If the DM makes a second, harder, Search check for you he is allowed to give you a hint.

The fifth level ability is once a day True Seeing SLA. Which is nice but... Five levels in monk might be better than this.

[AvatarVecna]

I think mystic theurge is really boring, which is a part of bad design. If you want to do something with theurgy, at least allow arcane and divine casting to synergise a bit. True necromancers have the same problem. Oddly enough, the yathrinshee, while normally a terrible class (you have to be drow, of all things), actually has a neat class feature - all your caster levels stack for necromancy spells. Good for controlling large numbers of undead - circle magic and consumptive field on as many progressions as possible, please!

Also, any class which requires Toughness, or Weapon Focus, without actually doing anything related. Weapon Focus is only acceptable for things like Exotic Weapon Master and Kensai. Toughness is (or would be) only acceptable for... War Hulk?

PF did a couple interesting things with the Mystic Theurge, and most other Theurge classes in 3.5 at least tried to be interesting (such as Fochlucan Lyrist advancing other class features, and Ultimate Magus giving some Metamagic-based class features).

And yeah, Toughness is pretty arguably the worst feat ever. I prefer the PF version, which is essentially 3.5 Improved Toughness. For that matter, I prefer Improved Toughness. And War Hulk getting Toughness at levels 8, 9, and 10 is one of the things I hate about it as it stands.

[Doctor Awkward]

Oh, you mean Pale Master is significantly worse than straight wizard? Why? Because you give up a single caster level? Because you're forced to take several ranks in a knowledge skill that governs knowledge of the monsters you specialize in leading? It's a gish PrC giving you undead immunities, minions, and 9/10 casting progression; that's not significantly worse than wizard. It's a slight downgrade at best, and while it's certainly not quite as good as straight wizard (not giving up caster levels is the first rule of optimization for a reason), it's hardly terrible enough to be listed alongside such dead ringers as Reaping Mauler, Disciple of the Word, and Risen Martyr. That's my point: it's almost definitely a downgrade for a wizard, but being T2-/T1+ instead of being T1- is hardly anything to complain about when the PrCs this thread is bemoaning are competing with a Prestige Class that tries to theurge Monk and Truenamer, and does terribly at that.

Are there full caster PrCs that belong here? Sure, but they belong because they have no idea what they want to be, or they directly make you worse at the thing they claim to specialize in. Pale Master insists on making you a master Necromancer, complete with partial undead transformation. It's thematic, it's mechanically useful, and it doesn't even gimp your casting they way most gishes do (see: Spellsword, Battle Sorcerer, Nature's Warrior, etc.).

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the inner workings of psionics to determine whether your complaints about the Quori Nightmare are as pedantic as your complaints about the Pale Master, so I'll let that one remain for someone more knowledgeable than I to smack down.

It's a ****ty PrC for wizards in exactly the same way that Dragon Disciple is ****ty for Sorcerers.

It's unfocused (a +4 bonus to Fortitude saves? Really? Control an undead by giving them the bad touch? And here's an undead cohort because **** it, why not?), gives awkward ability score benefits (a +4 inherent bonus to Strength, and more bad touch abilities that are key off of Charisma), and is completely un-synergized (a slew of gish-like abilities, 1/2 BAB, d4 HD, and only one good save). It has no idea what it wants to be, and fails to contribute anything mechanically meaningful to any build. Every single one of the bad touch abilities can be replicated by a spell without having to stand next to the thing you want to affect, AND without relying on an ability score you probably dumped to determine the save. The least offensive thing about the class is that it has a sunk cost of Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion).

{scrubbed}

[bekeleven]

Many DMs play with the CWar rules applying to all PrCs. Risen Martyr heavily implies you're not supposed to want to come back.
Many DMs allow theurge stacking. Doesn't mean either one is within a mile of RAW.

As for reaping mauler, it's OK if you jump through some hoops. Enter through Martial Monk or Leviathan Hunter and you get clever wrestling without requiring prerequisites.

[Jormengand]

It's a ****ty PrC for wizards in exactly the same way that Dragon Disciple is ****ty for Sorcerers.

You're comparing losing one CL to losing 10? Really now?

Again, you're putting this as the worst-designed PrC against the Disciple of the Word and the Shining Blade of Heironeous.

[Troacctid]

And not using the class as a fallback doesn't help the argument that it isn't poorly designed. It's like playing a rogue, but instead of getting only half your sneak attack dice with Penetrating Strike, you just sit there.

Okay, but if you're going to hold that against Quori Nightmare, you kind of have to hold it against every other prestige class that advances casting, too, don't you? In a world where 4/5 and 9/10 casting prestige classes are the norm, you have to expect them to be balanced around the number of caster levels you're losing. And that's the case for Quori Nightmare. You lose one level of casting in exchange for five cool fear-based abilities. It's meant to supplement your casting, not completely replace it.


I think mystic theurge is really boring, which is a part of bad design. If you want to do something with theurgy, at least allow arcane and divine casting to synergise a bit.

Funny, I would have actually called the Mystic Theurge one of the best designs. It's elegant in its simplicity, and it paved the way for a whole genre of similar prestige classes. True, the later iterations managed to improve on the formula, but the core design never strayed far from the original, which still holds up now as a fun and well-balanced class.

[Doctor Awkward]

You're comparing losing one CL to losing 10? Really now?

Again, you're putting this as the worst-designed PrC against the Disciple of the Word and the Shining Blade of Heironeous.

...Yes.

When you gain nothing to the point that you would be better off not prestiging at all, it is a very poorly mechanically designed class.

I never said it was THE absolute worstest ever. I said it was easily worthy of consideration for one of the worst.

[Jormengand]

you would be better off not prestiging at all

That's even more true for SBoH and DotW. At least Pale Master you're not losing much - DotW you lose 10 levels of truespeak, pale master you lose 1 of casting. Risen martyr you die.

[Pluto!]

When you gain nothing to the point that you would be better off not prestiging at all, it is a very poorly mechanically designed class.
Not sure how recently you've opened a 3e book, but this statement applies to the majority of PrCs, and usually in a more significant and purposeless way than losing a feat and a CL in favor of flavorful abilities and free zombies.

[Doctor Awkward]

Okay, but if you're going to hold that against Quori Nightmare, you kind of have to hold it against every other prestige class that advances casting, too, don't you? In a world where 4/5 and 9/10 casting prestige classes are the norm, you have to expect them to be balanced around the number of caster levels you're losing. And that's the case for Quori Nightmare. You lose one level of casting in exchange for five cool fear-based abilities. It's meant to supplement your casting, not completely replace it.

But you are talking about supplementing your manifesting with something that flat-out doesn't work against a good 40% of the Monster Manual, and once enemies have access to Mind Blank or similar effects it stops working entirely. It's like the class becomes recursively worse the higher you go in level.

As far as balancing non-full casting progression classes. I remember seeing a discussion at one point that I kept meaning to read but never got around to it that discussed the implications of making all of the 6/10 or worse casting PrC's full-casting. I thought about it for a bit, and concluded that it would depend on if the abilities granted were at all comparable to the spells you could cast at that same level. Because I can't think of a more relevant example, compare the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's ability to throw up a veil to a Sorcerer casting Wings of Cover. Is one significantly better than the other? Are they at least each differently viable?

If the class feature you are getting is redundant with a spell, and isn't an unlimited daily resource, then there isn't much point to getting it in the first place.




Funny, I would have actually called the Mystic Theurge one of the best designs. It's elegant in its simplicity, and it paved the way for a whole genre of similar prestige classes. True, the later iterations managed to improve on the formula, but the core design never strayed far from the original, which still holds up now as a fun and well-balanced class.

I'll agree with the elegance. I'll also question if you can even count "boring" as mechanically bad, since that's pretty subjective.

[ngilop]

Reaping mauler I feel is pretty bad. on the other extreme so is incantrix.


side note I see a lot of people say bad things about the shining blade.. I did a fixed one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17636136&postcount=56)

and yes as always I am taking requests still.

[Troacctid]

But you are talking about supplementing your manifesting with something that flat-out doesn't work against a good 40% of the Monster Manual, and once enemies have access to Mind Blank or similar effects it stops working entirely. It's like the class becomes recursively worse the higher you go in level.

As far as balancing non-full casting progression classes. I remember seeing a discussion at one point that I kept meaning to read but never got around to it that discussed the implications of making all of the 6/10 or worse casting PrC's full-casting. I thought about it for a bit, and concluded that it would depend on if the abilities granted were at all comparable to the spells you could cast at that same level. Because I can't think of a more relevant example, compare the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's ability to throw up a veil to a Sorcerer casting Wings of Cover. Is one significantly better than the other? Are they at least each differently viable?

If the class feature you are getting is redundant with a spell, and isn't an unlimited daily resource, then there isn't much point to getting it in the first place.

I think making 40% of the Monster Manual immune to fear is poor design. I wouldn't say that automatically makes any fear-based prestige class poor design by association. Besides, fear-stacking is very powerful when it does work. It's basically save-or-lose.

Quori Nightmare has some neat abilities that support a cool theme. Is it a powerful option? No, losing caster levels is almost never worth it. Does that make it a poor design? No.

Incantatrix and Planar Shepherd are powerful, and they are much worse from a design perspective.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Incantatrix and Planar Shepherd are powerful, and they are much worse from a design perspective.

I find a good rule of thumb is that the more open ended an ability is the poorer design it is and is much more likely to be broken.

[Extra Anchovies]

Personally, I'm going to nominate most of the full-casting prestige classes, like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or Fatespinner. Giving a base class a bunch of new abilities, without taking anything away in return, is a terrible design. You should always have to choose between staying in your base class or prestiging out, and it should always be a meaningful choice.

I agree with you, at least in part. I'm of the opinion that a full-casting PrC that gives you better class features can still be well-balanced, if the only way to qualify is to dip out of a casting class for a few levels. Arcane Trickster is a good example; there's no way to meet the 2d6 sneak attack prerequisite without giving up three caster levels already.

[Troacctid]

Arcane Trickster is a good example; there's no way to meet the 2d6 sneak attack prerequisite without giving up three caster levels already.

Generic Spellcaster, yo. :smallcool:

Also, you can go Rogue 1/Spellthief 1 or the like and only lose two caster levels, or go Rogue 1/Unseen Seer X and only lose one caster level.

[Gullintanni]

...Yes.

When you gain nothing to the point that you would be better off not prestiging at all, it is a very poorly mechanically designed class.

I never said it was THE absolute worstest ever. I said it was easily worthy of consideration for one of the worst.

The Pale Master is exceptional PrC design IMHO. Yeah, the class makes you worse at being a Wizard, but it still gets 9th level spells. The Pale Master is not a significantly worse caster than a straight Wizard.

In return, they gain specialization, that is, they are better undead leaders than straight Wizards. For example, they get Animate Dead for free -- no material costs. That means you can lead skeletons and zombies, and change them up whenever you find a superior corpse without spending vital WBL.

The mentality goes from Animate Dead? Is it really worth it? to Animate Dead? I can raise everything! A 10th level Pale Master gains a whole suite of undead immunities, can wear (and enchant) armor without worrying over spell failure, and gains a cohort, which could well be a Necropolitan Cleric of Nerull. So -- you get an army of less powerful undead, and one that's a potential badass.

One other neat advantage -- "Control Undead" has no saving throw. Meaning if you find an opposing Lich with Class levels, and you can bump your caster level up above their HD, then you own that Lich. Force it to tell you where its Phylactery is. Then since you're a Wizard, teleport and smash.

The Pale Master's touch attacks are an option for the Wizard who gets caught in Melee, or just doesn't feel like wasting spell slots on a particular enemy. Not powerful, but flavourful.

The Pale Master trades a marginal loss in spellcasting ability for a specialization in Undead leadership. Entry costs are negligible. Skill Focus (Knowledge [Religion]) is a feat that costs 2,000 gold, so you're not even losing a feat. In fact, the gold you save over a career of not having to pay for your Animate Dead will easily pay for a visit to the Frog God's Fane. As for Knowledge Religion as a skill, it's great for identifying and learning about undead enemies, and costs you a few skill points -- which any Int based character (namely: every Wizard ever) has in relative abundance.

Good PrC design is about trading some class feature for specialization in a field. Pale Master nails it, with excellent Undead leadership abilities, some solid immunities, and a few neat, flavourful abilities for good measure.

[AvatarVecna]

It's a ****ty PrC for wizards in exactly the same way that Dragon Disciple is ****ty for Sorcerers.

It's unfocused (a +4 bonus to Fortitude saves? Really? Control an undead by giving them the bad touch? And here's an undead cohort because **** it, why not?), gives awkward ability score benefits (a +4 inherent bonus to Strength, and more bad touch abilities that are key off of Charisma), and is completely un-synergized (a slew of gish-like abilities, 1/2 BAB, d4 HD, and only one good save). It has no idea what it wants to be, and fails to contribute anything mechanically meaningful to any build. Every single one of the bad touch abilities can be replicated by a spell without having to stand next to the thing you want to affect, AND without relying on an ability score you probably dumped to determine the save. The least offensive thing about the class is that it has a sunk cost of Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion).

{scrubbed}

First of all, you're arguing that a class that gives 9/10 progression is as terrible as a class that gives 0/10 progression? Because if nothing else, I've got to say that's absolutely not true. If Pale Master is meant for wizards, it's also about as good/bad for sorcerers, and it's definitely more optimal for sorcerers than Dragon Disciple. That's no a fair comparison at all.

Secondly, it's still an upgrade from straight wizard (with the sole exception of the lost caster level, which is definitely enough to make people avoid it like the plague).


Let's look at the prereqs first:
Alignment: Non-good: Hrm. Alignment limits are always a pain, and I'm personally a fan of Good Necromancers, but I understand how this is keeping with the design goal of "master necromancer".

Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks: ...I have a high Intelligence and specialize in the creation and manipulation of the undead. How is being an expert on undead a bad prereq for a master necromancer?

Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion): I will admit, I hate feat taxes with a passion. This is no exception, and this is definitely a negative of the class.

Able to cast "Command Undead" and "Vampiric Touch" as arcane spells: Both of these are fairly useful spells; Command Undead is an integral part of being a necromancer, and Vampiric touch is pretty useful in the right situation. Not seeing how this is a bad prereq for a master necromancer.

Special Prereq (three days in a tomb with undead): You have Command Undead. How is this a problem?

Moving onto the actual class features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: If a necromancer wishes to wear light/medium armor without suffering the penalties, there's plenty of ways of getting around said penalties. That the necromancer is now proficient in said armor just makes it that much easier. Still, no reason to wear armor at this point...

Spellcasting: The missing level of casting hurts, and it's definitely a downgrade from straight wizard, but if the rest of the class at least keeps it from sucking terribly at it's role, this can be forgiven. It is not a crime against nature and God to have 9/10 casting, and it's hardly even the worst crime committed against the laws of optimization (that distinction goes to caster-intended classes that don't advance casting at all...like Dragon Disciple).

1/day Animate Dead (Sp): Free "Animate Dead" once per day is great for building up your undead army without having to spend a fortune. This can save you anywhere up to 1900 gp per day while building your horde. That's awesome.

Darkvision: Thematic, but not the most useful class feature; darkvision's not exactly hard to get. Still, it upgrades existing darkvision, so you can stack it with other things that grant it.

Undead Armor Affinity: With this, we actually have a reason to invest a little money in armor; the pittance of gold required for non-magic armor is definitely worth the spell slots you don't have to spend defending yourself that way, and there's plenty of ways to get magic armor to be worth it's weight in diamond (in terms of defensive power), especially for wizards. Still, I don't think this fits quite as well thematically as the other class features do; despite that, it's still keeping well within the "master necromancer" niche the class was designed for.

Control Undead (Sp): If nothing else, this is great as an additional way to control your horde that doesn't depend on your spell slots; the duration isn't anything to write home about, but it allows you to quickly regain control of your horde if some smartass dispels your earlier Control Undead.

Deathless Vigor: "...against spells that don't affect objects". Yeah, that's a lot of spells. Sure, it doesn't cover Disintegrate, but it covers things like Cloudkill, Destruction, Circle of Death, Chill Touch, Slay Living. To put it another way: according to the Site-That-Must-Not-Be-Named, there are a total of 5094 total spells; of those, 662 spells call for a Fortitude save, and 144 spells that can affect objects. By the power of fractions, we can estimate that this class feature gives you its bonus against a total of 643 spells. Obviously, due to this generalization, that estimate is going to be a bit off (if nothing else, at least some of those spells are duplicates). Still, that's a decent number of spells that it protects you from, considering how many spells can be used offensively (as opposed to being purely defensive/utility spells). It's especially useful when you consider how poor the average wizard's Fort save will be under most circumstances (obviously, they'll buff it, but a +4 against so many offense spells is nothing to sneeze at).

Undead Graft: ...certainly thematic, but useful? Well, it increases your carrying capacity...yay? I guess it also helps you land your melee touch attacks better, which works well with the other abilities. Of course, if someone's gotten into melee range with you, it's probably a sign that something's gone terribly wrong; after all, staying out of melee is why you have an army of minions! Me no likee. I must say, however, that's it's still an upgrade to the class, rather than making it actively worse at what it does.

Tough as Bone: Straight up immunities to some diseases, stunning, and nonlethal damage? Situationally useful. I don't have to spend spells getting around these things anymore? Awesome. Thematically fitting for a master necromancer? Awesome.

Undead Cohort: I'm sorry, can you remind me again why you were complaining about receiving the best part of Leadership for free in a way that doesn't prevent you from stacking it with Leadership and other Leadership-like abilities? Because that's awesome.

Deathless Mastery: Okay, so at this point we're also poison, sleep effects, paralysis, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, energy drain, and ability damage to physical attributes. That's a lot of seriously terrible things that we can now just be like "LOL NOPE" towards without having to spend spells or gold. It's a solid capstone and a solid upgrade for a solid PrC.

When all is said and done, this is still worse than a straight wizard...but with a laundry list of immunities that I don't have to use spells or gold to avoid, it's definitely a closer competition than is usually the case when discussing caster level loss. The free, Leadership-stackable cohort and 1/day free extras for your horde is just gravy at this point. All that and all we sacrificed was one feat (which wasn't even a 100% total waste, like if it was Toughness or something similar) and 1 level of casting.

Also, seriously, as bad as Dragon Disciple? You're off your rocker on that one.

On a completely unrelated note: in post #31, you've accidentally misquoted Troacctid; the link that should lead to his post saying those words instead leads to my previous post in our argument.

[Troacctid]

I'm not really in love with Pale Master, mainly because of that lost caster level. You need to take into account how crucial your caster level is for you as a necromancer--it determines the power of the undead you can summon. Losing caster levels for a class based around animate dead and command undead is akin to losing meldshaper levels on Witchborn Binder. Serious design flaw. And the first level is completely dead--no class features at all.

I realize that only losing one level makes it nowhere near as egregious as Witchborn Binder, but it's still bad design. It should give you a CL boost for necromancy spells, a la Stormcaster or Ordained Champion.

Edit: Hey, speaking of Witchborn Binder, that class sucks.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm not really in love with Pale Master, mainly because of that lost caster level. You need to take into account how crucial your caster level is for you as a necromancer--it determines the power of the undead you can summon. Losing caster levels for a class based around animate dead and command undead is akin to losing meldshaper levels on Witchborn Binder. Serious design flaw. And the first level is completely dead--no class features at all.

I realize that only losing one level makes it nowhere near as egregious as Witchborn Binder, but it's still bad design. It should give you a CL boost for necromancy spells, a la Stormcaster or Ordained Champion.

I actually feel like it's fairly balanced at level 10; my only real complaint is the dead first level; if the class were changed so that it got 9/10 casting, but level 10 is the one that got no casting, it would be much better IMO; that way, the CL loss comes at the tail end rather than plaguing you for your entire career.

Of course, I also feel that the benefits come close to outweighing the cost, but that's probably because I love the idea of getting large hordes for free.

[Gullintanni]

-good stuff-

Also, building an Uttercold Assault necromancer is only half the fun when you have to pay for your summons. Firewalls that heal your free undead are the best kind. :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

Also, building an Uttercold Assault necromancer is only half the fun when you have to pay for your summons. Firewalls that heal your free undead are the best kind. :smalltongue:

Haha, I love tricks like that. Also, nice to know my efforts are appreciated.

[Troacctid]

I don't think Pale Master is in the Bottom 10 or anything, but I don't mind including it in the conversation. It's got some major design flaws.

[Chronos]

Quoth Telok:

Master Inquisitive

Five levels of medium BaB, weak saves, and the first four give you two crappy once a day SLAs, two crappy bonus feats, and some "friends". Friends that you can only talk to once a week, have to pay money to, and do favors for. These aren't friends, they're low grade, non-combat mercenaries.

On top of that you get to blow a feat on Investigate. Which lets you think about what you find with a Search check. But wait! If the DM makes a second, harder, Search check for you he is allowed to give you a hint.

The fifth level ability is once a day True Seeing SLA. Which is nice but... Five levels in monk might be better than this.
You forgot about the list of class skills that's so short that you're forced to take cross-class skills. Seriously, they don't even get Craft. Everyone gets Craft.


Quoth Tonymitsu:

When you gain nothing to the point that you would be better off not prestiging at all, it is a very poorly mechanically designed class.
If that's always the case? Then yes, that's bad design. But if it's never the case, then that's just as bad. If a PrC is well designed, then we should see threads on boards like this with people asking "Should I take this PrC or stay in my base class?", and the responses would be "It depends, what are you trying to do?".

Oh, and Extra Anchovies, I agree that requiring multiclassing to qualify for a PrC is usually a reasonable cost. I mean, yeah, if you happen to already be a rogue 3 / wizard 5, then you're not losing anything by taking Arcane Trickster, but then, you wouldn't be a rogue 3 / wizard 5 unless you were aiming for Arcane Trickster to begin with. I was just speaking in general terms because there are so very many classes that don't cost you anything at all.

[Doctor Awkward]

When all is said and done, this is still worse than a straight wizard...but with a laundry list of immunities that I don't have to use spells or gold to avoid

No. No no no.

Spell. Singular.

Veil of Undeath does everything this class does for one 8th level spell (PLUS not needing to eat, breath, or sleep), which coincidentally, a normal Wizard gets at exactly the same level a Pale Master hit's his capstone.

At level 17 you can extend it to last for hours.

{scrubbed}

[Flickerdart]

Arcane Trickster is a good example; there's no way to meet the 2d6 sneak attack prerequisite without giving up three caster levels already.
Not true. You can use Magelord 1 (with Combat Medic 4 entry) and then Unseen Seer 1 to rack up the necessary +2d6 SA with no caster level loss at all. Granted, you do sink in a whole bunch of feats, so Rogue 1/Unseen Seer 1 for -1 CL is probably a better move.

[Anlashok]

I love the frothing at the mouth indignation and vitriol at the mere notion that someone doesn't agree that a PrC you hate is garbage. Especially when combined with the bizarrely inappropriate political references.

[Gullintanni]

No. No no no.

Spell. Veil of Undeath .

Spell. Dispel Magic.

I'll take an 8th level, undispellable effect as a Capstone all day long. Neither the best, nor the worst Capstone among PrCs.

Nothing contrary about liking Pale Master. It has a valuable niche. Outside of that niche, it's not as good as a Wizard.

[AvatarVecna]

No. No no no.

Spell. Singular.

Veil of Undeath does everything this class does for one 8th level spell (PLUS not needing to eat, breath, or sleep), which coincidentally, a normal Wizard gets at exactly the same level a Pale Master hit's his capstone.

At level 17 you can extend it to last for hours.

{scrubbed}

"Lasts hours by spending a spell" versus "lasts forever without using a spell"; oh yeah, that's so superior. I myself mentioned how easy it is for spellcasters to wear armor penalty-free; I also mentioned how this class makes that easier (even though I personally don't like that feature). As for the bad touch, I repeat: if you've gotten into melee, and your best use of a standard action is not a spell, you've ****ed up twice over.

The mechanics of Pale Master support the fluff, and the sacrifice you make to get the bonuses isn't as huge as you're making it out to be. No, it's not optimal, but when the mechanics and the fluff work together to produce something halfway balanced, that's good design, not bad design. And that's why it doesn't belong in this thread.

EDIT: Huh. I forgot to mention that spells can be dispelled. Good thing I'm not the only one calling you on your b.s. around here...

[Troacctid]

What makes Pale Master a bad design is that it's worse even within its own niche. It makes you worse at necromancy, thanks to the penalty to CL. It's a trap.

Contrast True Necromancer. Yes, you lose caster levels, but the class gives you a boost to CL with necromancy and rebuking, so it at least pays you back in your specialty. And unlike Pale Master, the special abilities the class grants scale based on your character level, not your caster level, so it doesn't nerf itself for no reason. Furthermore, it gives you an always-on desecrate effect, which significantly increases your necromantic power. It makes you worse as a general caster compared to a standard Mystic Theurge, but it makes you better at your specific niche.

[Doctor Awkward]

I love the frothing at the mouth indignation and vitriol at the mere notion that someone doesn't agree that a PrC you hate is garbage. Especially when combined with the bizarrely inappropriate political references.

Not nearly as much as I love how the first and only response to logic and reason is, "Well I think it's fine, so that makes you full of ****."


Fact: The benefits the class provides are nothing unique.

Fact: The "benefits" are counterproductive to your goal as a primary spellcaster.

Fact: You worsen yourself in other areas to get them.

Conclusion: You are better off as a straight class than you are prestiging.

Addendum: The PrC is self-defeating and stupid.


Nothing more to see here. Move along.

[Gullintanni]

Not nearly as much as I love how the first and only response to logic and reason is, "Well I think it's fine, so that makes you full of ****."


Fact: The benefits the class provides are nothing unique.

Fact: The "benefits" are counterproductive to your goal as a primary spellcaster.

Fact: You worsen yourself in other areas to get them.

Conclusion: You are better off as a straight class than you are prestiging.

Addendum: The PrC is self-defeating and stupid.


Nothing more to see here. Move along.

Your goal isn't primary spellcaster, your goal is to be a good Undead Leader, and the class abilities serve that objective well.

The benefits aren't unique - fortunately, an abilities usefulness isn't determined by its uniqueness, but rather, by the opportunity costs of acquisition, and the impact they have on gameplay. Pale Master costs a handful of skill points, a feat you can pay for with the money you save from free undead, and one caster level.

With a 10,000 gp Rod of Defiance, a 20th level Pale Master can use the Control Undead ability to dominate nearly any undead in the MM on a whim, with no save, and an Undead cohort is essentially a free extra character.

[AvatarVecna]

Not nearly as much as I love how the first and only response to logic and reason is, "Well I think it's fine, so that makes you full of ****."


Fact: The benefits the class provides are nothing unique.

Fact: The "benefits" are counterproductive to your goal as a primary spellcaster.

Fact: You worsen yourself in other areas to get them.

Conclusion: You are better off as a straight class than you are prestiging.

Addendum: The PrC is self-defeating and stupid.


Nothing more to see here. Move along.

Being slightly worse in general compared to a straight wizard doesn't make it terrible and doesn't make it badly designed.

[Pluto!]

Edit: Hey, speaking of Witchborn Binder, that class sucks.
Now that I'd buy for the worst designed PrC. I forgot how bad that concept was.

I similarly don't love the design of Bloodstorm Blade, but at least it can do cool things, even if it doesn't advance the mechanic that its abilities are supposed to enhance.

Pre-update Eunuch Warlock is also pretty bad, though at least it can be interesting as a cap on contained casting PrCs.

Gray Guard would make a lot more sense as a way for a Paladin to keep himself from losing his class abilities if leveling in Gray Guard didn't essentially give up Paladin class features.

And Magelord/Invisible Blade prereqs are known things.

[AvatarVecna]

I similarly don't love the design of Bloodstorm Blade, but at least it can do cool things, even if it doesn't advance the mechanic that its abilities are supposed to enhance.

I love Bloodstorm Blade, but I'm fully aware that my love for it is born of Stockholm Syndrome: it's basically a requirement if you want to be on par with more standard mundane characters (not having to buy multiple magic weapons, getting your iteratives, etc.). I hate it with a passion even as I include it in tons of builds. My absolute favorite part of Pathfinder is the part where a single, inexpensive magic item makes thrown weapon combat a competitive fighting style (the Blinkback Belt).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Personally, I'm going to nominate most of the full-casting prestige classes, like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or Fatespinner. Giving a base class a bunch of new abilities, without taking anything away in return, is a terrible design. You should always have to choose between staying in your base class or prestiging out, and it should always be a meaningful choice.

The problem with this is that wizards don't actually get any class features for staying wizards that they could sacrifice. CL progression is so integral that you need something pretty strong to make it worth losing even one level, which is why most non-full progression PrCs suck.
The only PrC i can think of that's worth losing 2 or more CL is the Swiftblade, and that's for a bonus standard action every round. You don't get much stronger class abilities than that.

[Extra Anchovies]

The problem with this is that wizards don't actually get any class features for staying wizards that they could sacrifice. CL progression is so integral that you need something pretty strong to make it worth losing even one level, which is why most non-full progression PrCs suck.
The only PrC i can think of that's worth losing 2 or more CL is the Swiftblade, and that's for a bonus standard action every round. You don't get much stronger class abilities than that.

The fact that wizards don't have much worth staying for beyond the caster levels is what make full-casting PrCs an issue. Wizards are OP enough without non-casting class features, so in exchange for gaining non-casting class features, they should have to give up some of their casting. PrCs tailored to specific classes are supposed to be sidegrades/slight upgrades, not superior in every way.

[Story]

And yeah, Toughness is pretty arguably the worst feat ever.

Sorry, but Expanded Lexicon is the worst feat of all time (in 3.5 at least; PF has some contenders).


there's no way to meet the 2d6 sneak attack prerequisite without giving up three caster levels already.

Oh come on, that's easy. Now doing it without losing any levels is a lot harder (you might be able to get it by blowing enough feats on Martial Study Assassin's Stance but that's feat intensive so it still hurts).


Not true. You can use Magelord 1 (with Combat Medic 4 entry) and then Unseen Seer 1 to rack up the necessary +2d6 SA with no caster level loss at all. Granted, you do sink in a whole bunch of feats, so Rogue 1/Unseen Seer 1 for -1 CL is probably a better move.

Huh, I guess there's another way.


Anyway, Magelord is pretty broken due to the prereqs.

[AvatarVecna]

Sorry, but Expanded Lexicon is the worst feat of all time (in 3.5 at least; PF has some contenders).

If you meant "Focused Lexicon", where the feat by RAW does nothing but make it harder for Truenamers to do anything, then I can agree with you. If you are referring to some feat actually called "Expanded Lexicon", I have been unable to find it and can't agree or disagree with you without seeing it. Either way, Focused Lexicon is just terrible.

[Story]

Oops sorry, I meant Focused Lexicon.


Anyway, I've heard that Pathfinder managed the impressive feat of making something even worse - they have a feat that does nothing but give your enemies Power Attack.

[AvatarVecna]

Oops sorry, I meant Focused Lexicon.


Anyway, I've heard that Pathfinder managed the impressive feat of making something even worse - they have a feat that does nothing but give your enemies Power Attack.

Wait, what? Now this I've got to see.

[Extra Anchovies]

Wait, what? Now this I've got to see.

Caustic Slur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general). It's a gnome-only feat where the user says something racist about their favored enemy, and nearby creatures of that type gain Power Attack when they attack you (and get an extra -1/+2 if they already have the feat).

[Sith_Happens]

When you gain nothing to the point that you would be better off not prestiging at all, it is a very poorly mechanically designed class.

I didn't realize that

Free Animate Dead
No-save Control Undead
Unlimited undead controlled at once (read Deathless Master's Touch very closely)
Undead immunities
A cohort
was somehow worse than one caster level and two wizard bonus feats, or one caster level and... the absolutely nothing else that sorcerers get by not prestiging. But I guess Leadership and unlimited free zombies suck now. Who knew.


What makes Pale Master a bad design is that it's worse even within its own niche. It makes you worse at necromancy, thanks to the penalty to CL. It's a trap.

I think you're really overestimating the impact of caster level on undead minionmancy here. As far as I can tell the only impact of -1 CL is 2-4 fewer HD animated per casting and 4 fewer HD controlled at once.


Fact: The benefits the class provides are nothing unique.

False. Deathless Master's Touch allows you to control any number of zombies at once, which I know of no other way to do.


Fact: The "benefits" are counterproductive to your goal as a primary spellcaster.

Hilariously false. I see not a single class feature that somehow makes you worse at casting.


Anyway, Magelord is pretty broken due to the prereqs.

Oh yeah, any class that's literally impossible to finish before epic is definitely in the running for Worst-Designed Ever.

[AvatarVecna]

Caustic Slur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general). It's a gnome-only feat

:smallsigh: It would be a gnome feat...

[tadkins]

:smallsigh: It would be a gnome feat...

Gnomes are too awesome, gotta give our enemies a chance after all. :)

[Evan Epis]

Blighter is one the worst in my opinion. Both prerequisites and features, while very flavorful and thematic, are made of pure suckness. Unless I'm missing something...

[Extra Anchovies]

Blighter is one the worst in my opinion. Both prerequisites and features, while very flavorful and thematic, are made of pure suckness. Unless I'm missing something...

Their spell-recovery method is truly awful. I wonder if WotC making that prestige class a cancer on this earth was intentional...

[GreenSerpent]

For worst feat it's gotta be Skill Focus (Speak Language) for me.

As for worst designed PrC, that's a bit trickier. In terms of being written badly I'd have to say Apostate of Peace for the contradictions of the class with VoP. The class itself is pretty decent though if you can solve that little miswording!

[icefractal]

Contrast True Necromancer. Yes, you lose caster levels, but the class gives you a boost to CL with necromancy and rebuking, so it at least pays you back in your specialty. Wait a minute. You're saying that True Necromancer is better than Pale Master? :smallconfused::smalleek::smallyuk:

The class where you have worse casting than your cohort's cohort? Sure, with the CL boosts, you end up "only" two levels behind (in CL), but getting spells six levels late is going to significantly hurt your necromantic prowess.

Having a mobile zone of Desecrate is pretty swanky, but so is no-save Command Undead. As for the SLAs, they're nothing you couldn't just cast yourself ... if you weren't six levels behind.

[Extra Anchovies]

As for worst designed PrC, that's a bit trickier. In terms of being written badly I'd have to say Apostate of Peace for the contradictions of the class with VoP. The class itself is pretty decent though if you can solve that little miswording!

And, ya know, manage to swing a non-fighting class in a tabletop RPG that was originally based on Chainmail.

ETA: Not that I don't think a peace-based character/party/game won't work; what I mean is that a lot of people play D&D in large part for the ability to fight stuff, and don't want another player's character try to get in they way of that. If everyone's on board it would definitely be fun to try.

[VariSami]

I also side with those arguing that Pale Master has no place in this discussion because whatever arguments used against it apply to 90% of caster prestige classes, except maybe that some of its abilities are melee-based.

While it is also a far cry from many of the classes mentioned here, I would like to have an honorable mention made to Fleshwarper from Lords of Madness. While it seems perfectly fine, its entry requirements actually contain some hidden print. You see, Graft Flesh requires 10 ranks in Heal and the class is intended for arcane casters due to the requirement of having a familiar. It seems as though the writers forgot this little bit of trivia since the entry requirements also list 4 ranks in Heal as a prerequisite. These requirements may be passed with some maneuvering, sure. My personal favourite is to use Mystic Wanderer from Magic of Faerûn to qualify as a divine caster. However, it does not change the fact that the designers' intent seems to have been lost due to their having forgotten to account for the required feat's prerequisites.

[ShurikVch]

Which of the SBoH is worse - CDiv or Dragon magazine #283?
(Dragon version have only 3/4 BAB, and only 3/day of Blade; but, in addition, gets Detect Evil SLA, Smite Evil up to 4/day, and Celestial template at capstone)

[Extra Anchovies]

Which of the SBoH is worse - CDiv or Dragon magazine #283?
(Dragon version have only 3/4 BAB, and only 3/day of Blade; but, in addition, gets Detect Evil SLA, Smite Evil up to 4/day, and Celestial template at capstone)

Wow, um... didn't know about the Dragon version, but assuming it's the same sort of Smite Evil as the 3.5 Paladin, they both sound pretty bad.

[atemu1234]

Their spell-recovery method is truly awful. I wonder if WotC making that prestige class a cancer on this earth was intentional...

Yeah, in my campaigns I do a couple things to fix that:
1. They use all druid spells (think Druid version of Ur-Priest).
2. They don't need to blight the earth to recover spells.

And this thread makes me want to make a Pale Master Wizard Gish who wields a scythe...

[SinsI]

Personally, I'm going to nominate most of the full-casting prestige classes, like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or Fatespinner. Giving a base class a bunch of new abilities, without taking anything away in return, is a terrible design. You should always have to choose between staying in your base class or prestiging out, and it should always be a meaningful choice.

They don't progress your familiar, so you lose the new abilities he would've gained.

[Segev]

Perhaps we should set up a competition: design the better minionmancer. A volunteer who feels Pale Master is utterly atrocious should build a straight Wizard (may choose whether to be a Necromancer specilaist or not); a volunteer who feels Pale Master is better at minionmancy should build a wizard->Pale Master. (Again, may choose whether to specialize in necromancy or not, as a wizard.)

Then we can compare their abilities.

[ZamielVanWeber]

On strict minionmancy Plan Master wins because of his graft's ability to make zombies has no written limit. The real question is the loss of magical power for these minions worth it.

[dysprosium]

Fleet Runner of Ehlonna, on the other hand...well, let's put it this way:

It requires divine casting...and grants 5/10 casting progression (and only at the even levels at that).

It has a bad Reflex save...and grants Improved Evasion.

It gives you Shot on the Run for free...and pounce.

It's based around being the fastest there is...and grants you heavy armor proficiency.

In a world where direct combat is the easiest/most obvious way to level up...it grants 4 class features entirely focused on running away.

The best entry classes are, in order, Druid, Ranger, and Cleric...which is why the assumed entry is Cleric.

It is...the most confused Prestige Class in the world.

I agree it is a confusing prestige class but I won that Round of Iron Chef (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17943680&postcount=114)!

Two of my picks for worst mechanical prestige classes have already been mentioned: Shining Blade of Heironeous and Risen Martyr.

Has anyone said Dwarven Defender yet? "I'm going to defend this spot right here! You will not get past . . . Wait! Where are you going?"

[Segev]

Pyrokineticist is also pretty bad. No advancement of manifestation, and it doesn't get abilities that are even as good, in truth, as most things a Soul Knife gets. It's best abilities are slightly athematic, such as "firewalk," and WOULD be better done with a psi power you could have had sooner if you hadn't taken the class.

[Solaris]

Has anyone said Dwarven Defender yet? "I'm going to defend this spot right here! You will not get past . . . Wait! Where are you going?"

No, but only because you beat me to it.
I was going to say something along the lines of "Feel like you're not doing anything in combat because the casters outclass you? Take this class and get better at not doing anything!"

[ShurikVch]

Pyrokineticist is also pretty bad. No advancement of manifestation, and it doesn't get abilities that are even as good, in truth, as most things a Soul Knife gets. It's best abilities are slightly athematic, such as "firewalk," and WOULD be better done with a psi power you could have had sooner if you hadn't taken the class. There is Kineticist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030328b), which actually progressing manifesting.

[Flickerdart]

There is Kineticist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030328b), which actually progressing manifesting.
Ooh, ooh, that reminds me.

These are not just bad or weak PrCs - they are poorly designed in a fundamental sense. What would you think about a PrC that required casting, but then instead of progressing casting gave you its own, crappier casting?

Welcome to every single PrC in the 3e Psionics Handbook. Yes, it was superseded by XPH, but these PrCs are extra-stupid on top of the already stupid 3e psionics system. It would be all right if you could get into them without being a manifester, but in 3e you couldn't even multiclass into a psionic class without having started as a psionic class - which meant Psion or Psychic Warrior. Metamind is the worst offender here - it was meant to be a psion who sacrificed power progression for more PP, but a Psion 20 actually had more PP than a Psion 10/Metamind 10!

[Extra Anchovies]

Welcome to every single PrC in the 3e Psionics Handbook. Yes, it was superseded by XPH, but these PrCs are extra-stupid on top of the already stupid 3e psionics system. It would be all right if you could get into them without being a manifester, but in 3e you couldn't even multiclass into a psionic class without having started as a psionic class - which meant Psion or Psychic Warrior. Metamind is the worst offender here - it was meant to be a psion who sacrificed power progression for more PP, but a Psion 20 actually had more PP than a Psion 10/Metamind 10!

Oh lord, that book. I bought it well after the XPH was out, thinking that I'd need the "normal" Psionics Handbook before moving on to the Expanded one. I still kinda regret the purchase.

[Troacctid]

Wait a minute. You're saying that True Necromancer is better than Pale Master? :smallconfused::smalleek::smallyuk:

The class where you have worse casting than your cohort's cohort? Sure, with the CL boosts, you end up "only" two levels behind (in CL), but getting spells six levels late is going to significantly hurt your necromantic prowess.

Having a mobile zone of Desecrate is pretty swanky, but so is no-save Command Undead. As for the SLAs, they're nothing you couldn't just cast yourself ... if you weren't six levels behind.

Yeah, I said it. True Necromancer is a better design than Pale Master.

Bear in mind, I also have Mystic Theurge as one of my top designs. True Necromancer is building on that model in an interesting way. Compared to a standard Mystic Theurge, it is better at necromancy and worse at everything else. A necromancy focus is actually interesting as a dual progression class because it lets you combine command undead (the evil cleric ability) with command undead (the arcane spell), which IIRC was difficult to do at the time. Dread Necromancer showed up later, I guess, but True Necromancer is still a neat theurge variant.

[ShurikVch]

Alienist 3.0 was interesting
Alienist 3.5 is useless

[Segev]

Alienist 3.0 was interesting
Alienist 3.5 is useless

What made it so interesting in 3.0?

[SinsI]

What made it so interesting in 3.0?

It had better bonuses from transcendence (20/+1 and 20 electricity resistance vs. DR10/magic, resistance 10/acid and resistance 10/electricity), but the biggest change is not even that:
Mad/Insane certainity: it was -2/-6 penalty to saving throws, attack rolls, Charisma-based skill and ability checks against one kind of creature (like spiders), plus +2/+6 morale AC for the creature. In 3.5, it became -4/-10 penalty on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Handle Animal against all nonpseudonatural creatures. In most games, unless DM specifically adds some pseudonatural creatures for the sake of Alienist alone, it means absolutely ruined social skills, since all the creatures you are going to meet are going to receive those penalties.

Pseudonatural template was also changed: Acid and Electricity Resistance for HD 4+ creatures reduced by 5, the damage reduction for HD 8-11 changed from 5/+2 to 5/magic,
and for 12+ from 10/+3 to 10/magic.

[JeenLeen]

I forget the details, but Green Star Adept (or whichever one is focused on consuming starmetal) is a fighter class that makes you worse at being a fighter over time, IIRC. I think the capstone was also pretty bad.

I can see Blighter, though. It basically makes you a weaker druid who will attract tons of attention when recharging your spells, if you can find a place to allow you to recharge.

To the interesting conversation on the necromaster PrC: I recall reading both and finding them subpar, but I didn't think either were terrible for their intended purposes. Just an optimized wizard was better (as is usually the case when not using broken PrC).

[ShurikVch]

The biggest difference is a Summon Alien CF.
Restriction "celestial and fiendish only" make this summoning specialist PrC actively worse in summoning.

In 3.0 there was no restriction.

[Segev]

Green Star Adept is pretty awful. It's a gish PrC on paper, but its main schtick doesn't synergize well with the arcane half of its progression, and it only gets 5/10 casting advancement. Due to what is likely a mistake in the writing, however, it has two different class features which stack strangely: each level of the PrC gives you +1 CL in your class of choice...and every even level, you gain +1 effective level for CL, spells known, and spell slots. So 10 levels of it gives a net of +15 CL (but still only advances you 5 levels of actual casting).

Could "work" with a Beholder Mage, maybe? Take Beholder Mage 5/GSA 10 for a total of 25 CL and up to 9th level spells in 15 class levels? Not sure it's really worth it, even then.

[Flickerdart]

Due to what is likely a mistake in the writing, however, it has two different class features which stack strangely: each level of the PrC gives you +1 CL in your class of choice...and every even level, you gain +1 effective level for CL, spells known, and spell slots.
No, you don't. I quote:

"At every even-numbered level, a Green Star adept gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as the bonus feat sometimes gained by a wizard)."

You only gain spells per day and spells known. No mention of caster level is made.

[Segev]

No, you don't. I quote:

"At every even-numbered level, a Green Star adept gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as the bonus feat sometimes gained by a wizard)."

You only gain spells per day and spells known. No mention of caster level is made.

Ah, okay. so it's just +10 CL over 10 levels.

Now I want to double-check other PrCs to see if they specify caster level does improve...

[turbo164]

Heh, in the SRD, Eldritch Knight says:

"From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. "

So Caster Level is not a "benefit" but is somehow "essentially" gained...It also lacks the "(and spells known, if applicable)" found in GSA...

[Flickerdart]

Now I want to double-check other PrCs to see if they specify caster level does improve...
It's really inconsistent across them all. Archmages, for instance, don't mention it either - increasing your CL requires a High Arcana, which they clearly didn't intend because taking that High Arcana costs one 5th level spell slot.

[Segev]

So the precedent seems to be that the language in the GSA's "gain new spells/day" feature also grants CL by default.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Metamind is the worst offender here - it was meant to be a psion who sacrificed power progression for more PP, but a Psion 20 actually had more PP than a Psion 10/Metamind 10!

Still is. I did the math once about how many powers you would need to manifest to come out ahead in spite of the 5 manifester levels lost. The answer I got was almost 10, in major part because your low manifester level precluded manifesting more expensive powers.

Edit: redid the math. At level 20 with 26-27 you lose 168 PP, with 44 being replaced by metamind's class features. So you straight up lose 124 PP and have a restriction on a bunch more. If he were allowed to augment his free powers this would be a lot less painful, but as is this is a nightmare.

[Karl Aegis]

Dwarven Defender is an improvement on a core fighter because it gets class features and a good will save. It certainly wasn't worse than the entry class even if you never use the defensive stance class feature or use a shield.

[AvatarVecna]

Dwarven Defender is an improvement on a core fighter because it gets class features and a good will save. It certainly wasn't worse than the entry class even if you never use the defensive stance class feature or use a shield.

It could be argued that the Defensive Stance is poorly designed; if it required something other than "no moving", it would probably be considered a bit better.

[Chronos]

Dwarven Defender fits its niche reasonably well; the problem is just that the niche it fills is a very small one. But keep in mind that dwarves live underground, and hence fight mainly in tunnels, and it gets a lot better.

[Pluto!]

DMG PrCs are the last place you should look if you want unified verbiage in "+1 level existing spellcasting class."

Some explicitly say they add spells known, some don't, some explicitly say they add CL, some don't. Some explicitly say they get both, some don't explicitly say they get either.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Pale Master is terribly designed from a mechanical standpoint: The first level of the class may be the single worst level non-Commoner level in D&D. 2-10 are delightfully flavorful and effective, but that first level with no abilities or casting? That HAD to be an editing error.

What's so bad about Disciple of the Word, though? It doesn't advance Truenaming, true, but it also doesn't require it-- just a few cross-class ranks on a bog-standard Monk. You lose out on Flurry, sure, but you keep the rest of the stuff you care about. In return, you get abilities that... well, they're better than pure Monk (I like Movement Perfected and Mystic Deflection), while still fitting the flavor nicely-- and in quantities (level/day) large enough to be useful. It's not high-op, sure, but, oh, a (full BAB class of your choice) 1/Monk 4/DotW 10 would be decent enough. (Especially with Invisible Fist and Decisive Strike thrown in)

To contribute... how about Hierophant? Clearly supposed to be the clerical counterpart to Archmage, but it doesn't progress spellcasting in a useful way.

[Almarck]

Dwarven Defender fits its niche reasonably well; the problem is just that the niche it fills is a very small one. But keep in mind that dwarves live underground, and hence fight mainly in tunnels, and it gets a lot better.

I'll second this. In a close coorridor or tunnel scenario, the "Hold the Line" defense is valid since it means your opponents will have to get through you first before takingg on your allies.

It's just very situational. Any open battlefields and the Defender is subpar. Then again, this game is called Dungeons and Dragons for a reason.

[Douglas]

To contribute... how about Hierophant? Clearly supposed to be the clerical counterpart to Archmage, but it doesn't progress spellcasting in a useful way.
If you take it in epic it's a lot better.

[ZamielVanWeber]

To contribute... how about Hierophant? Clearly supposed to be the clerical counterpart to Archmage, but it doesn't progress spellcasting in a useful way.

It has a niche in being fantastic at giving goodies to any PrC with its own divine magic progression. Granted the only commonly played one of those is Ur-priest, but Apostle of Peace can benefit as well (and the rest I either cannot remember or are just crap).

[SinsI]

Not exclusive to PrCs, but I find these 2 mechanics to be amongst the worst from a mechanical standpoint:

1) Open Chakra mechanics in Incarnum. Every Incarnum class (even PRCs) has to have its own progression, you can't bind soulbinds gained from another class to chakras that are opened with a different one, if you fall short of opening a chakra in one class you have to restart it from the beggining in another. All of that is extremely confusing and idiotic.
2) Spell slots and casting mechanics are separate for each caster class. No matter how good of a wizard are you, it won't help your Trapsmith spellcasting in the least... Compare it with Psionics, where Power Points gained work for any class you have.

[Pluto!]

What's so bad about Disciple of the Word, though? It doesn't advance Truenaming, true, but it also doesn't require it-- just a few cross-class ranks on a bog-standard Monk. You lose out on Flurry, sure, but you keep the rest of the stuff you care about. In return, you get abilities that... well, they're better than pure Monk (I like Movement Perfected and Mystic Deflection), while still fitting the flavor nicely-- and in quantities (level/day) large enough to be useful. It's not high-op, sure, but, oh, a (full BAB class of your choice) 1/Monk 4/DotW 10 would be decent enough. (Especially with Invisible Fist and Decisive Strike thrown in)
This was the class that this thread had me specifically thinking about nominating, should we get a spinoff for best-designed PrCs. It meshes two mechanical concepts very fluently, has an elegant and adhesive mechanic, can do cool tricks that are difficult to replicate elsewhere.

Plus, as a Truenaming Monk PrC, every time it's mentioned, it's bound to unjustifiably rile someone up.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I would like to nominate Shadow Adept. It starts off great with easy prerequisites and it's first level hands you three useful feats. Then it just stops giving anything relevant. The shield is difficult to use in normal combat because of its standard activation time and almost everything else it gives are either visual upgrades late in the game or piddly bonuses to three schools

[Vizzerdrix]

Pyrokineticist is also pretty bad. No advancement of manifestation, and it doesn't get abilities that are even as good, in truth, as most things a Soul Knife gets. It's best abilities are slightly athematic, such as "firewalk," and WOULD be better done with a psi power you could have had sooner if you hadn't taken the class.

Fighter/Rogue with wild talent says otherwise. The PrC wasn't meant for casters so advancing casting or not is a moot point.

I'm nominating Gnome Artificer (From Magic of Faerun) and Spellfire Channeler. Those are some busted PrCs.

[SinsI]

I would like to nominate Shadow Adept. It starts off great with easy prerequisites and it's first level hands you three useful feats. Then it just stops giving anything relevant. The shield is difficult to use in normal combat because of its standard activation time and almost everything else it gives are either visual upgrades late in the game or piddly bonuses to three schools
WTF?! No way does it deserve the title of "worst-designed"!

It has full spellcaster progression and cheap entry.
It gives bonus metamagic feat, so if you wanted one anyway, the entrance into this PRC is free for classes like Sorcerer.
It also increases caster level over what a standard caster would get.
It improves your saving throws.
It gives you some extra abilities, which is good for casters with limited spells known.

[ZamielVanWeber]

WTF?! No way does it deserve the title of "worst-designed"!

It has full spellcaster progression and cheap entry.
It gives bonus metamagic feat, so if you wanted one anyway, the entrance into this PRC is free for classes like Sorcerer.
It also increases caster level over what a standard caster would get.
It improves your saving throws.
It gives you some extra abilities, which is good for casters with limited spells known.

It looks nice, sure. But:
So do many others. Literally five pages away is the super easy to enter Incantatrix.
No it doesn't, unless you are counting Pernicious Magic, which works differently from the standard metamagics. It does not give a generic metamagic feat.
No it doesn't; Shadow Weave Magic does, but Shadow Adept does not.
Against three schools of magic by small amounts, one of which is negated by Mind Blank.
3 extra abilities. One is a shield with a rounds/day duration and a standard action activation time, making it virtually useless in combat and the other is the interesting shadow double, which requires 10 levels., and shadow walk once per day.
You could just as easily dip it for its one good level and wander off into something like Incantatrix, which is easily entered after Shadow Adept.

A prestige class that simply does not entice you to stay in it past the first level is poorly designed. I love the fluff, but I can never justify staying in it because you get so little compared to other PrC options.

[SinsI]

Ah, I was looking at 3.0 version in FRCS. They castrated it in PGtF.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A prestige class that simply does not entice you to stay in it past the first level is poorly designed. I love the fluff, but I can never justify staying in it because you get so little compared to other PrC options.
There's a difference between "suboptimal" and "worst designed." "Suboptimal" is something like Arcane Trickster or, which isn't bad per say but isn't as good as other options (Unseen Seer). "Worst designed" is something like Dragon Disciple literally disqualifying itself, or Green Star Adept, which basically burns money to make you worse at fighting and casting.

[Zaq]

I'm far from the first person to mention this, but half of the Iron Chef SIs could fit on this list. I'll be repeating what's already been said; consider it emphasis.

Initiate of Pistis Sophia is notable for how narrowly it defines what your build can look like (there's what, ONE way of entering it on time to finish before Epic, other than VoP Monk 10? So two whole options, one of which requires book-diving?), and of course, what it gives you is arguably not even as good as more levels in Monk.

Witchborn Binder, I think, is absolutely one of the worst offenders. Many of its abilities are based on your meldshaper level, which only gets 6/10 progression. It doesn't advance melds or binds, and it only barely advances essentia, so you're basically giving up advancing at meldshaping when you take it. The unique abilities it gets are limited in range, easily resisted, and often not that effective even when they work perfectly. It's bad from start to finish. Oh, and of course it's supposed to go toe-to-toe with full casters; that's a fool's game even with solid class design, but Witchborn Binder would be ineffective even if its primary target wasn't the single strongest archetype in the game.

Thunder Guide is not so much a class as it is a list of small bonuses the GM can give out for good RP. Its one saving grace is that it's relatively easy to enter, but it doesn't make you better at pretty much anything. It's also a shining example of a problem that plagues a few different classes: you pick your own bonuses from a list, and that list doesn't have any prereqs, so you can take whatever you want from the list right away. You get five such picks over ten levels. Naturally, you're going to pick the best option first, right? Which basically means that this class feature gets less and less interesting every time it comes up. When you get your final pick, you're choosing from options you've passed over four times already. It's kind of like the problem you'd face as a pure-class Fighter in a Core-only environment, only worse. (Thunder Guide actually commits this particular sin twice: over ten levels, you get to pick five Thunder Lore choices, and you get to pick three Native Ties choices. In both cases, you're going to take the best options first, and so the class feature gets less and less valuable as you advance in level. Great design, right?)

For a non-Iron Chef pick, has anyone mentioned Frenzied Berserker yet? Most of us understand that the way to use Frenzied Berserker is to go away from the party every morning, blindfold yourself, use up all your Frenzies harmlessly, and then just use your absurd Power Attack bonuses the rest of the day, but that's clearly not what the class was intended to do. Instead, it turns you into a ticking time bomb, and every encounter from then on out is just an unlucky initiative order away from turning into PVP. Yes, yes, a Wizard can shut down someone in a Frenzy with a simple Grease spell, but what happens when the last enemy drops unexpectedly, but the Frenzied Berserker's initiative comes up before the Wizard's does? A problem, that's what happens. Inspire Frenzy makes the problem worse, if you actually use it. And of course, since there's that clause about damage forcing you to make a Will save or enter a Frenzy, FB turns traps and environmental hazards from an annoyance into a major threat. It's just horrible game design.

[Douglas]

Most of us understand that the way to use Frenzied Berserker is to go away from the party every morning, blindfold yourself, use up all your Frenzies harmlessly, and then just use your absurd Power Attack bonuses the rest of the day, but that's clearly not what the class was intended to do.
Alternatively, optimize your will save so much that you can always pass the DC 20 save to end your frenzy early. Dealing with natural 1s makes this a bit more difficult.

[SinsI]

Alternatively, optimize your will save so much that you can always pass the DC 20 save to end your frenzy early. Dealing with natural 1s makes this a bit more difficult.

A level of Warblade or Swordsage or Martial Study for Moment of Perfect Mind is enough to fix it, as Concentration checks don't care about 1.

[Douglas]

A level of Warblade or Swordsage or Martial Study for Moment of Perfect Mind is enough to fix it, as Concentration checks don't care about 1.
Except you can't use Concentration while in a Frenzy.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A level of Warblade or Swordsage or Martial Study for Moment of Perfect Mind is enough to fix it, as Concentration checks don't care about 1.
You can't use concentration while in a frenzy. You can still prevent entering a frenzy, but once you're in one, it's down to your regular will saves.

[SinsI]

Except you can't use Concentration while in a Frenzy.
You can't use Concentration skill.
You can use maneuvers, and you are using a maneuver and not Concentration skill.

[Douglas]

You can't use Concentration skill.
You can use maneuvers, and you are using a maneuver and not Concentration skill.
Using the maneuver requires using Concentration. If it didn't, it wouldn't call for a Concentration check.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Alternate option: Iron Heart Surge the frenzy?

[Telok]

Using the maneuver requires using Concentration. If it didn't, it wouldn't call for a Concentration check.

Interesting thoughts:
Frenzy does not allow you to use the Concentration skill.
Moment of Perfect Mind requires you to make a Concentration check.
Concentration is a Constitution based skill.
Activating a maneuver does not require concentration (ToB p.39).

It is unstated (that I could find) that using Moment of Perfect Mind is using the Concentration skill. It's not an unreasonable assumption, but I couldn't find that. I also couldn't find where the Rage or Frenzy descriptions say what happens when someone is forced to roll a skill check for the forbidden skills. Supposedly the skill attempt just fails. But Moment of Perfect Mind isn't a skill attempt, it's just a check required by a maneuver which a Fenzied Beserker is allowed to use.

I suppose you could just use the character's Con bonus as the skill result.

[Troacctid]

I was looking at Complete Arcane recently and was reminded that Seeker of the Song and Sublime Chord are right next to each other. My god, both of those classes are so terribly designed.

[Chronos]

And, specifically, what kind of check is a concentration check? It's a skill check.

And I think I'd agree on Sublime Chord. Either you play it straight, and have to ask yourself why you didn't just make a sorcerer to begin with instead of a bard, or you advance it with some other prestige class, and it's overpowered.

I don't remember the details of Seeker of the Song, though.

[The Viscount]

Pre-update Eunuch Warlock is also pretty bad, though at least it can be interesting as a cap on contained casting PrCs.

Gray Guard would make a lot more sense as a way for a Paladin to keep himself from losing his class abilities if leveling in Gray Guard didn't essentially give up Paladin class features.

I had always just assumed you were supposed to enter Eunuch Warlock after finishing a unique casting PrC.

I used to be a mild fan of Gray Guard, but then I discovered Shadowbane Inquisitor, which I like much more for the similar concept, and it also makes Blackguard into a decent PrC instead of a painful one by smoothing entry. Changeling Rogue 1/Shadowcloak Paladin 6/Shadowbane Inquisitor 5/Blackguard 10/Whatever 4 is a fun time.


Alternate option: Iron Heart Surge the frenzy?
This is an excellent idea, way better than my default response.


For a non-Iron Chef pick, has anyone mentioned Frenzied Berserker yet? Most of us understand that the way to use Frenzied Berserker is to go away from the party every morning, blindfold yourself, use up all your Frenzies harmlessly, and then just use your absurd Power Attack bonuses the rest of the day, but that's clearly not what the class was intended to do. Instead, it turns you into a ticking time bomb, and every encounter from then on out is just an unlucky initiative order away from turning into PVP. Yes, yes, a Wizard can shut down someone in a Frenzy with a simple Grease spell, but what happens when the last enemy drops unexpectedly, but the Frenzied Berserker's initiative comes up before the Wizard's does? A problem, that's what happens. Inspire Frenzy makes the problem worse, if you actually use it. And of course, since there's that clause about damage forcing you to make a Will save or enter a Frenzy, FB turns traps and environmental hazards from an annoyance into a major threat. It's just horrible game design.
I had come up with a Frenzied Berserker solution once, actually in the Iron Chef round for Anointed Knight, though I wasn't able to find the time to make a finished build. The central idea was use the ability to give the weapon sentience, at which point it counts as an creature as well as an item. Your weapon is always the closest creature to you since it's in your square. When you attack your weapon, you can't use your weapon to attack it (for obvious reason), so you're left with unarmed strike, which deals nonlethal (assuming you didn't do anything weird) and the intelligent weapon is a construct so is immune. Thus whenever you run out of targets just harmlessly attack your weapon until you tucker yourself out. This means you don't have to leave odd weak spots in your defense so your allies can take you out. Obviously Anointed Knight isn't necessary for the idea, it's just cheaper and less likely to be banned.

I also really liked the idea because it fits in with the image in accounts of berserkers biting their shields, but Grod's idea is leagues ahead.

[Extra Anchovies]

How about Beastmaster? Each subsequent animal companion it grants you is weaker than the previous one.

[jedipilot24]

Heirophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm)

A divine-themed counterpart to Archmage with NO spellcasting progression. AT ALL!

What were the people at WOTC smoking when they came up with that?

[Almarck]

Here's an interesting class: Evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist)

Now the name might make you think it's a divine caster. It's not. You don't even need to be a caster to run it.

Basically, it's a prestige class... that lets you gain abilities from your normal class ontop of other things. Like bonuses and certain deity boons.

It's functional and strong, yet... poor design. I mean, it's almost autoinclude.

[Story]

It's functional and strong, yet... poor design. I mean, it's almost autoinclude.

How so? Losing a level is pretty harsh. If it were 3.5 most casters wouldn't even look at it.

[Rubik]

Caustic Slur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general). It's a gnome-only feat where the user says something racist about their favored enemy, and nearby creatures of that type gain Power Attack when they attack you (and get an extra -1/+2 if they already have the feat).Combine it with Elusive Target.

Who's laughing at the gnome now?

[Almarck]

How so? Losing a level is pretty harsh. If it were 3.5 most casters wouldn't even look at it.

Well, it's not 3.5 so, there's that.

I don't think the class is made for casters though to begin with, but it's much better for martials. Picture this, as soon as a rogue qualifies he takes this class which provides a ton of bonuses to a couple of things (+2 dodge, +4 bonus to Dex), some abilities, some other things, yet also gets almost all of the advantages for all of the levels he did not take in his normal class.


Edit: I don't think Caustic Slur is functioning improperly. The whole point of the ability to make yourself a target so your allies won't be targeted.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Heirophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm)


As I mentioned before Heirophant has a niche with accelerated divine casting classes. Someone else mentioned that it was good in Epic.

Compare it to Wonderworker. It also doesn't boost casting and is good only so only Apostle of Peace can really take it and they don't need the bonus exalted feats.

[Necroticplague]

And, specifically, what kind of check is a concentration check? It's a skill check.

So? It's a skill check, that doesn't mean you're using the skill. Concentration has a very specific list of uses, of which MoPM isn't one of them. You aren't using the skill, just using its check. Maneuvers explicitly don't require concentration, so it seems pretty clear all maneuvers are FB-compatible.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Edit: I don't think Caustic Slur is functioning improperly. The whole point of the ability to make yourself a target so your allies won't be targeted.
It doesn't actually force them to attack you, though.

[fallensavior]

Arcane Archer.

[Rubik]

Arcane Archer.Hey, arcane archer is a great 2-level prestige class!

Well, except for the racial restriction.

And no arcane casting.

[ShurikVch]

I'm nominating Gnome Artificer (From Magic of Faerun) and Spellfire Channeler. Those are some busted PrCs.What's so wrong about them?

[Sian]

In case of Gnome Artificer at least its fairly easy

lets say i make an item that casts a 1st level spell at CL1 ... it costs Spelllevel * Caster Level * 1000, and takes up 2(!) slots ... if crafting it to only take 1 slot the base price another * 2 ... granted it explicitly doesn't cost XP to make (and aren't shut down by antimagic), but it still costs more to make an item that takes up one slot, than it would be to go to the local Magic'r'Us and buy a wand of said spell

While its a very interesting class, its simply to cost prohibitive to actually use unless your DM have the worlds biggest hardon for antimagic fields, or have gone Antimagic Forsaker for some odd reason

[ShurikVch]

In case of Gnome Artificer at least its fairly easy

lets say i make an item that casts a 1st level spell at CL1 ... it costs Spelllevel * Caster Level * 1000, and takes up 2(!) slots ... if crafting it to only take 1 slot the base price another * 2 ... granted it explicitly doesn't cost XP to make (and aren't shut down by antimagic), but it still costs more to make an item that takes up one slot, than it would be to go to the local Magic'r'Us and buy a wand of said spell

While its a very interesting class, its simply to cost prohibitive to actually use unless your DM have the worlds biggest hardon for antimagic fieldsThen what's prohibit you to sell those items and get more money than you spend?

[sleepyphoenixx]

How about Beastmaster? Each subsequent animal companion it grants you is weaker than the previous one.

If it were only that it could be dealt with. The problem is that the Extra Companions don't progress with anything except BM levels.
So your capstone is a level 1 riding dog that never progresses. At level 15.

Beast Heart Adept from Dungeonscape has the same problem.

[Extra Anchovies]

Beast Heart Adept from Dungeonscape has the same problem.

Yeah, but at least you can pick up a utility-heavy beast like an Ankheg (leaves a tunnel you can fit through; your monster friends can follow if they squeeze) or one of the fliers. Personally, I'd pick some combat-effective monster for the main companion, and have the second and third companions be a Wyvern (flying mount, plus harvestable Con poison) and an Ankheg (burrow speed).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yeah, but at least you can pick up a utility-heavy beast like an Ankheg (leaves a tunnel you can fit through; your monster friends can follow if they squeeze) or one of the fliers. Personally, I'd pick some combat-effective monster for the main companion, and have the second and third companions be a Wyvern (flying mount, plus harvestable Con poison) and an Ankheg (burrow speed).

You can pick those up anyway with Handle Animal. Spending 10 levels on companions that don't advance and are useless in combat is completely unnecessary.

[Sian]

Then what's prohibit you to sell those items and get more money than you spend?

The listed example says that a Item of Bull Strength (2nd level, cl=3) costs 6k to make, ie. it cost the same to make it as it would cost on the market. There is no ½ Market cost in supplies around here, its full cost.

at the same time a Wand of Bull Strength costs 4.5k to buy in Magic'r'Us, while it is mechanicly similar except for the fact that you have to use a UMD check (if you don't have the spell on your class list to begin with), and it doesn't take any bodyslots, whereas the Artificer item costs 2 bodyslots.

As you won't gain money for it, and it would take a very specific case where it wouldn't be flat out worse than a wand i'm highly doubtful that people would buy it ahead of a wand

[Sith_Happens]

And I think I'd agree on Sublime Chord. Either you play it straight, and have to ask yourself why you didn't just make a sorcerer to begin with instead of a bard

Because then you'd only be half as fabulous, duh.:smallwink:


I had come up with a Frenzied Berserker solution once, actually in the Iron Chef round for Anointed Knight, though I wasn't able to find the time to make a finished build. The central idea was use the ability to give the weapon sentience, at which point it counts as an creature as well as an item. Your weapon is always the closest creature to you since it's in your square. When you attack your weapon, you can't use your weapon to attack it (for obvious reason), so you're left with unarmed strike, which deals nonlethal (assuming you didn't do anything weird) and the intelligent weapon is a construct so is immune. Thus whenever you run out of targets just harmlessly attack your weapon until you tucker yourself out. This means you don't have to leave odd weak spots in your defense so your allies can take you out. Obviously Anointed Knight isn't necessary for the idea, it's just cheaper and less likely to be banned.

I also really liked the idea because it fits in with the image in accounts of berserkers biting their shields, but Grod's idea is leagues ahead.

Screw biting your shield, I'm imagining a Frenzied Berserker furiously punching their own sword and it's why your idea is in fact the better one.:smallbiggrin:


Here's an interesting class: Evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist)

Now the name might make you think it's a divine caster. It's not. You don't even need to be a caster to run it.

Basically, it's a prestige class... that lets you gain abilities from your normal class ontop of other things. Like bonuses and certain deity boons.

It's functional and strong, yet... poor design. I mean, it's almost autoinclude.

Don't forget the part where it gets 6+INT skill points per level but only has eight non-Craft class skills. Not that that matters at all in Pathfinder, but it's the principle of the thing.

[Chronos]

Hierophant exists for the sake of continuity with 2nd edition. In 2nd edition, divine spells only went up to level 7. A druid 14 had 7th-level spells, and was considered the Archdruid (basically, the hippie Pope). But this is a very boring job, so after earning only 500 additional XP, the Archdruid would reach level 15, and retire, becoming a hierophant druid. You didn't gain any further spells beyond this point, because there were no more spells to be gained, but you got a bunch of other nifty abilities. So if you wanted your 3rd edition druid to work just like she did in 2nd edition, you'd take the Hierophant prestige class.

And Wonderworker is great for an Apostle of Peace, but it's good even for a standard cleric. A cleric 17/wonderworker 3 has more high-level spells than a cleric 20, and the same number of mid- and low-level spells. You also end up gaining more feats than you burned on the prerequisites. The only drawback is that it doesn't increase caster level, but Practiced Spellcaster will fix that, and still leave you ahead on the feats. So as long as your build wants at least four exalted feats, there's literally no reason not to take Wonderworker as a cleric. Well, aside from the opportunity cost of not taking some other prestige class instead, but that's poor design on those other PrCs, not on Wonderworker.

[9mm]

Hey, arcane archer is a great 2-level prestige class!

Well, except for the racial restriction.

And no arcane casting.

yeah but with the right gear it's a free twin spell.

[bekeleven]

You know, the very fact that we're evaluating all of these classes by relative mechanical strength indicates that we're not evaluating them with the same rubric as the designers.

The thread is still a fun read, I just figured I should say that.

[lord_khaine]

Alternate option: Iron Heart Surge the frenzy?

Would not work, if your Iron Heart surging, then you are not attacking a target to the best of your ability.

[annulus]

Would not work, if your Iron Heart surging, then you are not attacking a target to the best of your ability.

Wizard: "I'll let you coup de grace me if you Iron Heart Surge your frenzy. Otherwise, I'm just going to keep flying just out of reach."

Frenzied Berserker: "..."

[Grod_The_Giant]

Would not work, if your Iron Heart surging, then you are not attacking a target to the best of your ability.
"This frenzy is currently clouding my judgement. I'll be able to attack much more efficiently without it."

[Necroticplague]

You know, the very fact that we're evaluating all of these classes by relative mechanical strength indicates that we're not evaluating them with the same rubric as the designers.

The thread is still a fun read, I just figured I should say that.

I would sure hope not, the devs seemed to have little clue what they were doing (though they managed to mostly figure out in time for 4e, give or take a few minor hiccups).

[ShurikVch]

The listed example says that a Item of Bull Strength (2nd level, cl=3) costs 6k to make, ie. it cost the same to make it as it would cost on the market. There is no ½ Market cost in supplies around here, its full cost.

at the same time a Wand of Bull Strength costs 4.5k to buy in Magic'r'Us, while it is mechanicly similar except for the fact that you have to use a UMD check (if you don't have the spell on your class list to begin with), and it doesn't take any bodyslots, whereas the Artificer item costs 2 bodyslots.

As you won't gain money for it, and it would take a very specific case where it wouldn't be flat out worse than a wand i'm highly doubtful that people would buy it ahead of a wand1) Trading prices are not set in stone - you always can haggle out some more gp for it
2) Bull Strength spell can be dispelled; Item of Bull Strength can't be even disjoined (and AMF is in the eye of Beholder)
3) What's if Wands of Bull Strength is out of stock?

[Zaq]

(and AMF is in the eye of Beholder)


I'm stealing that.

[Crazysaneman]

I'm ashamed no one mentioned Tiger Mask from the magazine...
It requires 2nd level spells, 5 ranks in Diplomacy, 8 ranks in Gather Information, and a ritual performed by a Rakshasa.
In exchanged you get full BAB, Good fort poor others, d8 HD, 2/5 casting progression, an ability that makes you a ARROW MAGNET, alter self 1/day, terrible arrow/bolt damage reduction, and eventually the outsider type as a capstone.

So it requires you to be a spellcaster with non spellcaster skills, gives you rogueish skills and skill points fighter BAB, and saves, and some TERRIBLE abilities with 2/5 casting...

What's that Timmy? You wanted to start as a caster, diddle around a bit as a rogue, and finish out as a fighter? YOU GOT IT!

hue

[Petrocorus]

I would add my voice to those who mentioned the Incantratrix. It doesn't cost you much, one lame feat and banning a school. And it gives you completely brokenly overpowered abilities.

Another one like this is the Tainted Scholar, right out of the box, it's unbalanced and overpowered. Granted, it is supposed to come with the risk of becoming an NPC.



Funny, I would have actually called the Mystic Theurge one of the best designs. It's elegant in its simplicity, and it paved the way for a whole genre of similar prestige classes. True, the later iterations managed to improve on the formula, but the core design never strayed far from the original, which still holds up now as a fun and well-balanced class.
According to me, Mystic Theurge is a good design. It take something from you to give something to you. It turned out to be underpowered, because higher level casting is much better than dual casting and more spells per day, but the design is balanced.



Initiate of Pistis Sophia is notable for how narrowly it defines what your build can look like (there's what, ONE way of entering it on time to finish before Epic, other than VoP Monk 10? So two whole options, one of which requires book-diving?), and of course, what it gives you is arguably not even as good as more levels in Monk.

I don't get that, you can qualify as a level 6 Monk AFAIK. Why do you need VoP? It's totally sub-par and you're MAD as hell but it doesn't seems so hard to qualify with the intended class.

[Story]

Doesn't one of the prereq feats require Ki Strike (Lawful)? It's hard to see how you can qualify without Monk 10. For that matter, you probably need VOP just to get a feat at level 10.

[Petrocorus]

Doesn't one of the prereq feats require Ki Strike (Lawful)? It's hard to see how you can qualify without Monk 10. For that matter, you probably need VOP just to get a feat at level 10.

Oh my... I just read "Ki Strike" and didn't see the "lawful" part. My bad.
Indeed, that's pretty bad.

[ZamielVanWeber]

According to me, Mystic Theurge is a good design. It take something from you to give something to you. It turned out to be underpowered, because higher level casting is much better than dual casting and more spells per day, but the design is balanced.
I think it is a good example of how design as evolved. Mystic Theurge's biggest downside is that it is extremely bland. It does what it sets out to do and has modest but fair requirements. Many of the later theurgic classes made up for their lack of lategame power with some nifty class abilities.

A little ironically mystic theurge stays relevant because its requirements are easy to cheat, so you can actually hiccup casting very little and still get a pile of spells per day.

[Troacctid]

I think it is a good example of how design as evolved. Mystic Theurge's biggest downside is that it is extremely bland. It does what it sets out to do and has modest but fair requirements. Many of the later theurgic classes made up for their lack of lategame power with some nifty class abilities.

Yes, but in its defense, look at the level-up tables for the classes it's combining.

http://i.imgur.com/TZTzHOD.png
http://i.imgur.com/i1QBd4y.png
It's hardly a net increase in boringness.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yes, but in its defense, look at the level-up tables for the classes it's combining.

It's hardly a net increase in boringness.

I love it; it is one of my favorite prestige classes, but if you play it the way it was meant to be played you spend a lot of time swimming on the low end of the spell pool with nothing to compensate until you really get into mystic theurge. Compare this even to the somewhat anemic Soul Caster; it gives a unique "soul meld," your spells.

[Petrocorus]

I love it; it is one of my favorite prestige classes, but if you play it the way it was meant to be played you spend a lot of time swimming on the low end of the spell pool with nothing to compensate until you really get into mystic theurge. Compare this even to the somewhat anemic Soul Caster; it gives a unique "soul meld," your spells.

The mystic theurge actually comes from previous ed, where Wizard - Priest was a multiclassing options for certain races. And because the way multiclassing worked in previous ed, the wizard - priest was much better. My biggest complain about the MT is that it should be 14 levels long to allow Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / MT 14 to reach 9th level spells on both side at level 20.
Of course, no one uses it as it was intended and instead use Ur-Priest or 1-lvl dip wizard + Precocious Apprentice.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm of the opinion that double-ninths is not ever really necessary; if you're going for mid/low-op you won't need it, and if you're trying to break the game you won't need it. However, Mystic Theurge is still really fun in games that don't go past 14th level or so.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I mentioned MT as bad design because there's just so little actual design about it. Something badly designed/broken, like the Incantatrix, still has something new, special, and useful. MT can basically be summed up as 'you can give up all class features to advance another line of casting'. Using that rule with the fighter class gets you the Eldritch Knight, another example of a class that works, but isn't designed.

You could say I'm not really happy to call any class without class features 'good design'. If MT worked like the Ultimate Magus, or like the Geomancer, it'd be good enough, in my book.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I wouldn't say that Incantatrix is badly designed. It gives interesting and useful new abilities while still costing you something. It just isn't balanced properly because the ability to add free metamagic is too strong.

The same applies to Hathrans and Red Wizards (the other infamous FR PrCs) - interesting and flavorful, but a little too much on the power scale. Who thought you needed high epic CLs at ECL 12-15?.
The Circle Magic variant from Ghostwalk is a lot more balanced and still useful and interesting without breaking your game in half.

That's an entirely different thing than a PrC for casters that makes you worse at casting by a big margin, like most half progression classes.


I'm of the opinion that double-ninths is not ever really necessary; if you're going for mid/low-op you won't need it, and if you're trying to break the game you won't need it. However, Mystic Theurge is still really fun in games that don't go past 14th level or so.

The problem isn't really with power level for me. There's plenty of PrCs with lower power levels. It's just bland, so i can't really see any design brilliance there.
Compare it to the Arcane Hierophant. Same basic concept and the abilities you get aren't that great but it feels more interesting to me because you get something that's useful every now and then.

[Troacctid]

If Eldritch Knight gave you the bonus feats of a Fighter, I would call it good design too.

Good design doesn't have to be complex. The most impressive designs are often the simplest.

[Banjoman42]

My vote goes for Risen Martyr as the worst PrC. Bloody useless abilities, horrid requirements, and it's like rail-roading, but the system itself enforces it. In a campaign that doesn't go past level 16, the flavor is pretty stupid (as the whole point of the capstone is final destiny) and if you do hit the capstone, you instantly vanish, never to be seen again. At least SBoH is in, some places, thematically appropriate.

[lord_khaine]

Wizard: "I'll let you coup de grace me if you Iron Heart Surge your frenzy. Otherwise, I'm just going to keep flying just out of reach."

Frenzied Berserker: "..."

Sadly if the wizard actually get a turn to speak with the berserker then there are plenty of spells that can shut him down.

The actual problem comes when the last opponent tp away just before the berserkers turn, and he then flies up to power attack said wizard down to -30 hp or so.


"This frenzy is currently clouding my judgement. I'll be able to attack much more efficiently without it."

Oh really..? if that was true.. then the berserker should newer enter a frenzy willingly, and spend every round in combat trying to end it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It just isn't balanced properly because the ability to add free metamagic is too strong. <snip> That's an entirely different thing than a PrC for casters that makes you worse at casting by a big margin, like most half progression classes.
Actually, I think those are the exact same thing: the designers misjudging the relative worth of class abilities.

[Extra Anchovies]

My vote goes for Risen Martyr as the worst PrC. Bloody useless abilities, horrid requirements, and it's like rail-roading, but the system itself enforces it. In a campaign that doesn't go past level 16, the flavor is pretty stupid (as the whole point of the capstone is final destiny) and if you do hit the capstone, you instantly vanish, never to be seen again. At least SBoH is in, some places, thematically appropriate.

All these Risen Martyr posts have reminded me of the surprisingly effective E6 build I worked out with it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18170038&postcount=22). The exact numbers on the AC might be off, but it gets sixth-level sorcerer casting, Cha to AC twice (for a total of +10), can dump Con because it gains the Deathless type (and all of its awesome immunities), and you never need to worry about having to take another level of Risen Martyr since it's an E6 game.

[Pluto!]

Re:Mystic Theurge, I won't hold boring designs like Eldritch knight or Mystic Theurge against the classes because that particular style of PrC exists less to be something flashy and interesting of its own, like the Assassin and Shadow Dancer, but instead to fix the multiclass system, which otherwise would make a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 or Cleric 10/Wizard 10 just unplayably bad at all of its jobs.

[Petrocorus]

I second or third those who said that complexity and originality are not required to make a good design. Often, the simplest is the best.
MT and EK are doing exactly what they are supposed to do, they give what they are supposed to give and cost what they are supposed to cost. For me, this is good design.
Of course they are less flavourful and original than Knight Phantom or Arcane Hierophant, and less impressive than Abj. Champ. or a Sublime Chord / Ur-Priest / Fochluran Lyrist build but precisely, they are simple, do their jobs and are balanced.



The problem isn't really with power level for me. There's plenty of PrCs with lower power levels. It's just bland, so i can't really see any design brilliance there.
Compare it to the Arcane Hierophant. Same basic concept and the abilities you get aren't that great but it feels more interesting to me because you get something that's useful every now and then.

I actually like the Familiar Companion of the AH. I think it thematic, flavourful, a good idea and potentially powerful. I believe this is good design. And it's not that complex or original.

[Necroticplague]

Eh, I think Mystic Theurge would do better with being a bit longer, since you can get into it at level 3 (archivist1/generic spellcaster1, Heighten spell+eldritch Corruption). Especially since you're kinda at a dead end once you finish it, and you arbitrarily have to choose which spellcasting you like more.

[Almarck]

Eh, I think MT is good as it is. Keep in mind that it was one of the first PrCs and as such was designed to be rather generic. Later classes added more depth and complexity over all.

Also, how many PrCs go past 10 levels or let you take more than 10 levels before Epic levels come into play?

[Jormengand]

Also, how many PrCs go past 10 levels or let you take more than 10 levels before Epic levels come into play?

Prestige Paladin?

[Chronos]

Also, how many PrCs go past 10 levels or let you take more than 10 levels before Epic levels come into play?
Not really relevant, since Mystic Theurge was one of the first prestige classes, and so the precedent was not yet set by the time they made it. Besides which, there are actually a few that go past 10.

[Necroticplague]

Eh, I think MT is good as it is. Keep in mind that it was one of the first PrCs and as such was designed to be rather generic. Later classes added more depth and complexity over all.

Also, how many PrCs go past 10 levels or let you take more than 10 levels before Epic levels come into play?

Not many. However, those other PRCs have closer. It makes sense that you finish it, they usually have a capstone, you've reached the pinnacle of that particular group of skills. Mystic Theurge, thanks to having absolutely no unique abilities, doesn't have this. There's no closure, just a sudden "er, I can't progress in both of my magics at the same time suddenly".

[Chronos]

On the other hand, Mystic Theurge's very simplicity makes it easy to extrapolate it. If you decided that a Frenzied Berserker should have more levels, what should they get? I dunno. But a 14-level Mystic Theurge? Easy.

[Douglas]

On the other hand, Mystic Theurge's very simplicity makes it easy to extrapolate it. If you decided that a Frenzied Berserker should have more levels, what should they get? I dunno. But a 14-level Mystic Theurge? Easy.
Have you seen how WotC decided to extrapolate Mystic Theurge into epic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicMysticTheurge)?

[Necroticplague]

Have you seen how WotC decided to extrapolate Mystic Theurge into epic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicMysticTheurge)?

...*blink*....*blink*.....
How the ^&*# is that even remotely different than just taking alternative levels of the two classes you're combining? Heck, your class might actually have class features to progress, so that could be simply flat-out inferior to doing so! It completely defeats the point of the class!

*tosses in 'material indicating ELH was written by the completely clueless' pile, to share space with Epic Spellcasting and Dire Charge*

[Karnith]

...*blink*....*blink*.....
How the ^&*# is that even remotely different than just taking alternative levels of the two classes you're combining?
It's different because you get bonus feats more slowly!Yes, yes, you'd need to reach level 20 in both classes to get those bonus feats, which a Mystic Theurge wouldn't do.

The epic mystic theurge gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic mystic theurge feats) every 6 levels after 10th.

The epic cleric gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic cleric bonus feats) every three levels after 20th.

The epic druid gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic druid bonus feats) every four levels after 20th.

The epic sorcerer gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic sorcerer bonus feats) every three levels after 20th.

The epic wizard gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic wizard feats) every three levels after 20th.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It's different because you get bonus feats more slowly!Yes, yes, you'd need to reach level 20 in both classes to get those bonus feats, which a Mystic Theurge wouldn't do.


Not a huge deal, but it's also d4hd instead of presumably alternating d4 and d8. Also it dictates which class levels it's casting at each level rather than you getting a choice.

[Pluto!]

To be fair, if you qualify for Mystic Theurge 11 at level 21 in a core game, you won't qualify for Epic Wizard for at least 13 more levels.

(So it's not what you've got, it's the fact that you aren't getting any better. :/)

[fallensavior]

How about Beastmaster? Each subsequent animal companion it grants you is weaker than the previous one.

Beastmaster is an excellent 1 level prestige class if you want to play a halfling outrider/paladin's mount.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Beastmaster is an excellent 1 level prestige class if you want to play a halfling outrider/paladin's mount.

A PrC that's only useful as a single level dip in a highly specific build can hardly be called good design.

[Story]

There's a lot of those. Mindbender and Marshall come to mind.

I suppose it depends on whether it's nonoptimal to take past level 1 or if it's just broken.

[goto124]

I had come up with a Frenzied Berserker solution once, actually in the Iron Chef round for Anointed Knight, though I wasn't able to find the time to make a finished build. The central idea was use the ability to give the weapon sentience, at which point it counts as an creature as well as an item. Your weapon is always the closest creature to you since it's in your square. When you attack your weapon, you can't use your weapon to attack it (for obvious reason), so you're left with unarmed strike, which deals nonlethal (assuming you didn't do anything weird) and the intelligent weapon is a construct so is immune. Thus whenever you run out of targets just harmlessly attack your weapon until you tucker yourself out. This means you don't have to leave odd weak spots in your defense so your allies can take you out. Obviously Anointed Knight isn't necessary for the idea, it's just cheaper and less likely to be banned.

I also really liked the idea because it fits in with the image in accounts of berserkers biting their shields, but Grod's idea is leagues ahead.


Screw biting your shield, I'm imagining a Frenzied Berserker furiously punching their own sword and it's why your idea is in fact the better one.:smallbiggrin:

What if the weapon was sentient?

'Hey man what are you doing ow ow ow why are you biting me like that I know I'm not hurt but this is really creepy ahhh someone help me!!!'

[Segev]

In an X-Crawl game (on the subject of "biting weapons"), I played a halfling rogue who dressed up like the classic golden-curled angel of a little girl, complete with (armored) pink frilly dress and comedically-large lollypop.

The "lollypop" was actually a specially-designed mace, and she had it enchanted with a permanent Prestidigitation to make it taste like what it looked like so she could lick it for effect. (Said effect also cleaned it of any unpleasantness after each swing.)


So now, I'm picturing some sort of hirsuite monster frienzied berserker with a customized round shield...that looks and tastes like a chocolate chip cookie. Of course, he dyes his fur blue.

[Chronos]

In an X-Crawl game (on the subject of "biting weapons"), I played a halfling rogue who dressed up like the classic golden-curled angel of a little girl, complete with (armored) pink frilly dress and comedically-large lollypop.
Shirley you're not serious?

[Segev]

Shirley you're not serious?

It's X-Crawl, and she went by "Lola," not "Shirley." ;)

The character was honestly a bit creepy if you delved too deeply into it. The child-act was very much in the spirit of kefabe, even if the blood and violence was not. (She was a cleric of Discordia, now that I think of it, not a rogue. She just had a lot of rogue-like...traits.)

[The Viscount]

What if the weapon was sentient?

'Hey man what are you doing ow ow ow why are you biting me like that I know I'm not hurt but this is really creepy ahhh someone help me!!!'

The weapon in fact must be sentient for this to work; Frenzied Berserker is only allowed to attack creatures, so wish granted. *Poof*