Is this pseudo-yuan-ti-player-race well placed at +1LA?

[Phaederkiel]

I want to make a nice yuan-ti Player race.
Since the Game I will DM starts at lvl3, a high LA is quite Prohibitive.

I thus want to make my yuan-ti at LA +1, or perhaps even at +0.

I found this here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15751236&postcount=8)

Snakefolk (Season name to fit)

+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Intelligence. Snakefolk are lithe and charming, but not too bright.
Medium size
A snakefolk's base land speed is 30 feet. Snakefolk also have a 20ft swim speed.
Darkvision out to 60 feet
+2 natural armor bonus
Natural weapons: bite 1d4
Snake Tail: Instead of legs, snakefolk support themselves on a powerful tail. So supported, they are much more stable than clumsy two-leggers, gaining a +4 bonus to resist trip and bull rush attempts. In addition, gain the Constrict special ability, dealing 1d6+ 1 1/2 times their strength modifier damage with a successful grapple check.
Snakefolk have a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. They can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. They can use the run action while swimming, provided they swim in a straight line
Scent
LA +1



I somehow think this is a little too weak for La +1.

I think perhaps something like this would be good for LA+1:

+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Int (I love Grods reasoning for this. sounds like a happy snake, too)
Long body (counts as a medium creature, but occupies 2 grids. Can reach far upwards)
30ft landspeed
20ft swimspeed
10ft climbspeed
scent + special scent in water
tremorsense ?(this sounds OP, but I will use an urban setting, people will walk everywhere)
Tail gives +4 against bullrush and trip.
Constrict 1d6+half strength

armor for this snakefolk cost 5 times as much.
-10 to jump checks

perhaps I want to give them a tail attack (1d4+str) with reach.


how does this sound? far too good? I think dwarfes are better :)
I know that the alternative will probably be a goliath.

[IZ42]

This should probably go in the Homebrew section of the forum. Sadly, I can't offer much advice, since I'm not the most familiar with 3.5 rules.

[Urpriest]

Don't do "long body", things like that were eliminated in the 3.0->3.5 transition, they're not consistent with how the game treats combat space.

What does "special scent" do?

What's the range on the tremorsense?

The armor cost is unnecessary. If you're going to do something like that just make them pay the normal cost for nonhumanoids.

Throwing in a natural weapon sounds reasonable. I don't know if I'd give it reach, it would certainly spice things up if you did though, making this a surprisingly powerful defensive race.

Most snake-shaped creatures don't have a penalty to Jump checks, so these guys shouldn't either.

[DrMotives]

Remember the rules on special movement modes: If something has a natural swim speed, they have a racial +8 to swim checks, and may always take 10. Same goes with natural climb speed and climb skill checks.

[Phaederkiel]

the special scent means scent that works underwater. I hope normal scent doesn't.

I am not sure how large a tremorsense I should give. Perhaps somewhat 20footish?


I never understood why snakes should be able to jump (cue someone showing me a video of a snake using their tail as a coil). I will most probably have some rooftop to rooftop action in my game, and I want to balance the climbspeed a little.

I think "long body" does at some places still exist. If I remember correctly, Savage species is somewhat 3.25, and centaurs for example I remember to be long. I think it is cool if there is more of a snake to flank. Perhaps she can coil, so she does take up only one field, but then cannot use her tail to attack.

The point about armor is duly noted. What was the normal rate? 4x?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I somehow think this is a little too weak for La +1.
It's kind of boarderline, looking back. On the one hand, none of the things it gives you are individually that strong. On the other hand, +2 NA, a bite attack (which I think would default to primary) to combo with any full attack routine, constrict, scent, and a swim speed is a heck of a lot for a LA 0. If you wanted to punch up mine a bit, adding a climb speed, upping the Snake Tail to immunity to trip attempts, and maybe adding a secondary tail slap would probably be the most you could do before leaving LA +1. Alternately, if you were to lose scent and NA it'd probably be a fine LA 0.

As for yours... probably LA +2. Tremorsense is crazy good-- especially in a setting where everyone's walking. It automatically detects everyone who's touching the ground and moving, even if it's just their arms or something. Add in the reach-weapon tail, all the movement modes, scent, and-- possibly-- increased reach on normal attacks? Yeah, you're not coming in at LA +1. Maybe a RHD or two and LA +1, but not plain LA+1.

EDIT:

the special scent means scent that works underwater. I hope normal scent doesn't.[QUOTE]
Water-breathing creatures can use scent underwater.

[QUOTE]I am not sure how large a tremorsense I should give. Perhaps somewhat 20footish?
Don't.


I think "long body" does at some places still exist. If I remember correctly, Savage species is somewhat 3.25, and centaurs for example I remember to be long. I think it is cool if there is more of a snake to flank. Perhaps she can coil, so she does take up only one field, but then cannot use her tail to attack.
In 3.5, that probably means Large, but with a 5ft reach. Large is really powerful, especially since they already get constrict. I don't think flanking around the tail would really work-- it's a small enough target as it is, and in a fight it's probably either flat on the ground or whipping around to slap people.

[Phaederkiel]

with "everyone walks around" I mean that there is a constant barrage of tremors coming at the poor snake. Kind of how it is to have hyperacute hearing in a disco. I think the flavor is very cool, but perhaps tremorsense is just too good.

without it, what do you think?

the snakefolk would not be able to breathe in water. But they would be able to taste the water, like snakes do IRL if i recall it right.

[The Viscount]

If you nix scent and tremorsense, that should be safely in LA 0. An option you might borrow from Nezumi in OA is the ability to spend a feat to gain the scent ability.

[Urpriest]

the special scent means scent that works underwater. I hope normal scent doesn't.

That seems like a silly thing to hope for, given that Sharks have Scent.



I am not sure how large a tremorsense I should give. Perhaps somewhat 20footish?

20ft is definitely too much for LA +1, but I could see 5ft working.



I never understood why snakes should be able to jump (cue someone showing me a video of a snake using their tail as a coil). I will most probably have some rooftop to rooftop action in my game, and I want to balance the climbspeed a little.

If snakes in general can't jump in your games then that's a general rule and you don't need to list it in this race's statblock.



I think "long body" does at some places still exist. If I remember correctly, Savage species is somewhat 3.25, and centaurs for example I remember to be long. I think it is cool if there is more of a snake to flank. Perhaps she can coil, so she does take up only one field, but then cannot use her tail to attack.

As mentioned, the only reason this sort of thing is in Savage Species is because it's 3.25, not full 3.5.



The point about armor is duly noted. What was the normal rate? 4x?

2x, as listed on the Armor for Unusual Creatures table.

[Phaederkiel]

okay, then this snake has scent that works as well under water as out of the water.

I believe I will kill off the tremorsense, and keep the tail attack in.

Urpriest: how would you express such a thing as a 10ft tail ruleswise? would "large, but with 5ft reach" not imply massive statboni in other places?
additionally, it is very confusing to write it like this, because the tail HAS a 10ft reach.

I think the -10 Jump is correctly put in, because nearly all flying races get a +10 to jump checks.

would the resulting creature be closer to LA +1 or LA+0?



+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Int
Counts as a large creature, but has only 5ft reach with handheld weapons without reach. Its tail has 10ft reach. For the purposes of squeezing through narrow places it counts as a medium creature.

has a natural tail attack which deals 1d4+str, 10ft reach.

30ft landspeed
20ft swimspeed
10ft climbspeed
scent in water and out of water

+4 to escape artist checks

Tail gives +4 against bullrush and trip.
Constrict 1d6+half strength

armor for this snakefolk cost 4 times as much. (x2 for large, x2 for unusual)
-10 to jump checks

[Urpriest]

okay, then this snake has scent that works as well under water as out of the water.

I believe I will kill off the tremorsense, and keep the tail attack in.

Urpriest: how would you express such a thing as a 10ft tail ruleswise? would "large, but with 5ft reach" not imply massive statboni in other places?

It doesn't have to, but being Large still has a number of advantages and along with the other stuff is probably too good for LA +1 so don't do that.



additionally, it is very confusing to write it like this, because the tail HAS a 10ft reach.

Then just give the tail 10ft reach, and otherwise don't bother with trying to indicate the presence of a 10ft tail.



I think the -10 Jump is correctly put in, because nearly all flying races get a +10 to jump checks.


The only flying races that get a bonus to Jump checks are races that can't fly at first level and are getting the ability to represent that they can still use their wings for something. And again, unless you give ordinary snakes a -10 to Jump as well you're making the race worse at jumping than an actual snake.



would the resulting creature be closer to LA +1 or LA+0?



+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Int
Counts as a large creature, but has only 5ft reach with handheld weapons without reach. Its tail has 10ft reach. For the purposes of squeezing through narrow places it counts as a medium creature.

has a natural tail attack which deals 1d4+str, 10ft reach.

30ft landspeed
20ft swimspeed
10ft climbspeed
scent in water and out of water

+4 to escape artist checks

Tail gives +4 against bullrush and trip.
Constrict 1d6+half strength

armor for this snakefolk cost 4 times as much. (x2 for large, x2 for unusual)
-10 to jump checks




Still LA +1. You're not going to get lower while you have a natural weapon with reach, and it's hard to get lower when you have a climb speed.