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Centik
2015-05-07, 07:33 PM
Well, this'll be my first post on this forum so, to those browsing and had the simple misfortune of clicking on my question, hello! Now, to my question:

I'm playing a Lawful Evil cleric of Asmodeus in my buddy's Wrath of the Righteous/home-brew amalgamation campaign and, as I like to do, I read a LOT about hell and all of its inhabitants. What eluded me, however, was the final resting place for the followers of Asmodeus and other demon lords. We know that all alignments have their own respective planes that they enter once they die, but from what I've read about hell and its many layers there doesn't seem to be a specified area for the fiendish followers of the world (Golarion in my case). Good folk go to heaven and hang out with their dead friends and family, but Evil clerics just... what? Burn in hellish fire like the rest of the damned souls? It just doesn't seem like a solid lifestyle choice if that's the case. So, my fellow wizards, clerics, fighters and the such, does anyone have any ideas?

Lurkmoar
2015-05-07, 07:40 PM
I thought they were turned into Lemures and started working up the food chain to get ranked. Though I imagine some particularly successful clerics get promoted faster or become Liches before they die.

Karl Aegis
2015-05-07, 07:49 PM
They go to their designated outer plane and go about their business as usual. Very few people actually meet outsiders in outer planes when compared to how many people are in the outer planes. A cleric of Asmodeus probably would get a desk job pointing people in the direction of some paperwork that's downstairs in a room with fiendish leopards.

Red Fel
2015-05-07, 07:57 PM
Good folk go to heaven and hang out with their dead friends and family, but Evil clerics just... what? Burn in hellish fire like the rest of the damned souls? It just doesn't seem like a solid lifestyle choice if that's the case.

Pretty much this, but you're missing the bigger picture - to the Lawful Evil, the Hells aren't a punishment.

Let me explain. One of Lawful Evil's defining traits is ambition. Planning. Desire to use the hierarchy to exploit others even as you improve your own standing. A willingness to inflict suffering on others, particularly those who inflicted it on you, as you build yourself up.

That's what the Lawful Evil afterlife is. It's the ultimate climbing opportunity. With very few exceptions, everyone starts in the same place - the bottom of the totem pole - but they all have the opportunity to ascend. Betray your fellows, abuse them, dominate them, bend them to your will, and you will rise in the diabolical ranks. There is always something above, a higher level to which to look up. And those higher up constantly abuse their power, promoting and demoting devils as they like, changing expectations and moving goalposts. It's a constant competition of ambition versus ambition, an exercise in ceaseless animosity and schemes within schemes. It's what they always wanted to do in life, the chance to put the full extent of their conniving to the ultimate test, without having to worry about those idiotic heroes coming in and mucking things up.

Lawful Evil Clerics have the added advantage of being prepared. Unlike those who are incidentally LE, LE Clerics know exactly what's coming. They want it. They crave it.

To the Lawful Evil, the Hells are heavenly.

IZ42
2015-05-07, 08:38 PM
Pretty much this, but you're missing the bigger picture - to the Lawful Evil, the Hells aren't a punishment.

Let me explain. One of Lawful Evil's defining traits is ambition. Planning. Desire to use the hierarchy to exploit others even as you improve your own standing. A willingness to inflict suffering on others, particularly those who inflicted it on you, as you build yourself up.

That's what the Lawful Evil afterlife is. It's the ultimate climbing opportunity. With very few exceptions, everyone starts in the same place - the bottom of the totem pole - but they all have the opportunity to ascend. Betray your fellows, abuse them, dominate them, bend them to your will, and you will rise in the diabolical ranks. There is always something above, a higher level to which to look up. And those higher up constantly abuse their power, promoting and demoting devils as they like, changing expectations and moving goalposts. It's a constant competition of ambition versus ambition, an exercise in ceaseless animosity and schemes within schemes. It's what they always wanted to do in life, the chance to put the full extent of their conniving to the ultimate test, without having to worry about those idiotic heroes coming in and mucking things up.

Lawful Evil Clerics have the added advantage of being prepared. Unlike those who are incidentally LE, LE Clerics know exactly what's coming. They want it. They crave it.

To the Lawful Evil, the Hells are heavenly.
Yet another excellent summation of the LE mentality by Red Fel. To go off on a related subject, followers of NE patrons are probably the most screwed even if they know what they're getting themselves into, if you read the fluff on Abaddon, because daemons are nucking futs, if you'll pardon my french.

goto124
2015-05-07, 08:47 PM
Basically, LE clerics spend their afterlives in fantasy hell, poking at hapless victims with pitchforks while laughing manically?

Red Fel
2015-05-07, 08:48 PM
The point is that every afterlife gives its petitioners more of what they wanted out of life. For LG, that means service, honor, worship, and love. For CG, it means freedom, passion, expression, and joy. For LN, it means order, structure, routine and hierarchy. For LE, it means ambition, conniving, backstabbing and cunning. For CE, it means brutality, bloodshed, a constant struggle for savage dominance. And so forth. The Evil afterlives seem bad to us, because most people don't like that stuff; but for those who do, apart from the fire and pain, it's the kind of place you can really cut loose and be yourself. Particularly if you're on the top of the heap instead of the bottom. And because of the constant back and forth, you never stay on top for long - which means you have plenty of time to climb back up again.

Flickerdart
2015-05-07, 08:53 PM
Don't most Evil souls just get eaten by powerful fiends without ever getting to be even lemures?

goto124
2015-05-07, 09:00 PM
I would say since LE cleric served their gods so loyally, they earned the higher ranks and get to enjoy. These clerics are exceptional, and there's no point wasting them.

They're not one of the 'most'.

Centik
2015-05-08, 12:37 AM
Pretty much this, but you're missing the bigger picture - to the Lawful Evil, the Hells aren't a punishment.

Let me explain. One of Lawful Evil's defining traits is ambition. Planning. Desire to use the hierarchy to exploit others even as you improve your own standing. A willingness to inflict suffering on others, particularly those who inflicted it on you, as you build yourself up.

That's what the Lawful Evil afterlife is. It's the ultimate climbing opportunity. With very few exceptions, everyone starts in the same place - the bottom of the totem pole - but they all have the opportunity to ascend. Betray your fellows, abuse them, dominate them, bend them to your will, and you will rise in the diabolical ranks. There is always something above, a higher level to which to look up. And those higher up constantly abuse their power, promoting and demoting devils as they like, changing expectations and moving goalposts. It's a constant competition of ambition versus ambition, an exercise in ceaseless animosity and schemes within schemes. It's what they always wanted to do in life, the chance to put the full extent of their conniving to the ultimate test, without having to worry about those idiotic heroes coming in and mucking things up.

Lawful Evil Clerics have the added advantage of being prepared. Unlike those who are incidentally LE, LE Clerics know exactly what's coming. They want it. They crave it.

To the Lawful Evil, the Hells are heavenly.
I like this response a lot. I think my character would look forward to an afterlife of intrigue and backstabbing! ALSO: Stealing that quote. It's pretty mint.

Centik
2015-05-08, 02:36 AM
The Evil afterlives seem bad to us, because most people don't like that stuff; but for those who do, apart from the fire and pain, it's the kind of place you can really cut loose and be yourself.

The funny part is: My cleric is a pyro in every sense of the word. Got a problem? Fire. This whole "hell" thing is starting to suit him more and more.

Grek
2015-05-08, 03:07 AM
Red Fel hits it right on the nose, but let me add that for Asmodeus in particular, your hellish heaven of choice is the Baatorian Layer of Nessus, which is an ice cold, snowy wasteland full of pits and ravines. You start your life at the bottom of a hole, packed in like sardines with other lemures. Then you fight and claw and kill your way up the top of the pit, at which point you wander the wastes, climbing walls and striking treacherous alliances with other escapees who are just as evil and driven as you are. Eventually you make your way to Malsheem, the Citadel of Hell, which rises up from the deepest pit of them all. Once you make it there (almost certainly betraying your allies along the way) you get an audience with Asmodeus himself, who transforms you into a mighty fiend and assigns you your place in the infernal hierarchy.

Or so the Archclerics tell it... Who knows if they're telling you the whole story.

Hawkstar
2015-05-08, 02:13 PM
A big thing about the Hells is all the half-truths and deceit about it. Red Fel's actually wrong about the hells being 'heavenly' to LE - they are led to believe that it's a world they can climb the ranks and become powerful Archdevils. They aren't told that:
1. They're most likely to just be devoured.
2. If they aren't, they're completely destroyed and rewritten.
3. Almost all archdevil places are taken.
4. The perks are only for qualified individuals, which you are not.

There are two big reasons to Worship Evil:
1. You actually buy the Devil's sales pitch (And they laugh at you for all eternity). It's a con/scam by all moral standards, but fully legal on a technicality.
2. You're short-sighted, and make a pact with a fiend for power in the mortal realm, believing that you can ultimately avoid your final fate. You think you're a step ahead, but the house ALWAYS wins.
3. You know you're evil by nature (Not in the cosmic sense, but as in it's just your personality), and you're desperate for an "out" of the hell you're doomed to, and fall into Reason 1.

At least that's the case for the poor, deluded Devil Worshipers.

Worshipers of Evil Gods, however, tend to have things better off, since their deity usually looks out for them (In a manner according to their personalities, of course).

Demons and CE is a different story, simply because Chaos prevents the misery from being consistent. Depending on the current mood, any given demon may decide to take you along for an abyssal drunken joyride instead of just torture and mutilate you.

Brookshw
2015-05-08, 02:56 PM
Don't most Evil souls just get eaten by powerful fiends without ever getting to be even lemures?

Correct, out of a million souls only a small handful get the joy of being lemures, the rest are eaten/ground up for soul paste/whatever. So Congrats to that tiny handful, you now get the joy of being front and center in the meat grinder called the blood war. Out of every 200k lemures a tiny handful once more get the joy of competing to be laughably higher on the totem pole and one or two gets to step up. Your next incarnation? Will also be front and center in the meat grinder called the blood war. As will the one above that. Once you get past this point (you lucky 1 in a trillion you, wait, did I say trillion? What comes after that? Okay, what comes after that? Right, you lucky 1 in a bloody lot whatever it is at that point) finally begins the standard-ish byzantine power struggle to move up in the world as something not guaranteed for the meat grinder (though you might end up there anyway). At this point everyone on par and below you is trying to stop your ascent and everyone above you is happy to stomp on your face because they had eggs for breakfast but decided afterwards what they had really been in the mood for was a bagel.

So I guess what I'm saying is being LE gives you an afterlife somewhat akin to being an imperial guard in 40k.

Frozen_Feet
2015-05-08, 04:29 PM
There's more to it than that. Whether afterlife is or isn't a reward is rather immaterial to how someone truly Evil would choose to live their life.

Notice how Clerics, specifically, can remain non-good even though they have high Wisdom? Even though they, of all people, should be able to see what's wrong with it?

They actually see beyond that. They have the necessary mental skills to jump through the hoops necessary to believe that the universe's morality is wrong, and their morality is right (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19198638&postcount=13), and then the willpower to stick with their stance no matter what. They're the ultimate sort of idealist. Even if their designated afterlife would be the worst thing ever, they would still stick with their beliefs because that is, to them, what's right. You don't yield before the feeble morality of the world and its meager rewards, even if it costs you everything.

Grek
2015-05-08, 08:31 PM
I find Hawkstar's answer unsatisfying. Sure, it makes for a feelgood story about how Evil is bad and dumb for being Evil and how they will all suffer in the end... but it doesn't make sense for a setting. If powerful evil clerics exist, surely they would be aware that being Evil is a bad idea. They have the power to visit Hell and see whether there are actual awards awaiting them. So I reject it. If you are Evil, you get judged by Evil Gods who reward Evil and punish Goodness. And if you are Evil enough, you get rewarded in Evil ways, like being allowed to lord over the souls of the damned and arbitrarily punish those below you.

JAL_1138
2015-05-08, 08:40 PM
Most servants of Evil think they're the exception--they're special, they're going to be rewarded--and don't really expect to wind up a Lemure on the bottom of the food chain, but expectations do not necessarily match reality.

Red Fel
2015-05-08, 08:49 PM
Most servants of Evil think they're the exception--they're special, they're going to be rewarded--and don't really expect to wind up a Lemure on the bottom of the food chain, but expectations do not necessarily match reality.

This.

Now, Hawkstar makes some good points - not all Evil creatures are Evil with an eye on the afterlife. Some are Evil ideologically - they're looking for power in the short run, and as a rule, Evil is often easier - and frequently more profitable - than Good. Others embrace the idea of power at any price, unaware or unappreciative of the price.

But the fact is, one doesn't become Evil and plan to lose. Sure, lots of villains plan short-term loss gambits, where losing the battle can still win you the war, but most plan for victory. And victory in Hell is pretty damned impressive - Devils are recognizable symbols of Evil power, authority, and success.

Yes, most who embrace Evil will wind up at the bottom of the afterlife totem pole, with a life expectancy of a snowball in the same place. But Evil doesn't look at that and say, "Sheesh, odds are bad, time to pursue redemption." Evil looks at that and says, "Wow, just think about how many people I'll have to destroy to get where I'm headed." Evil - at least Evil that isn't stupid - recognizes the risks. It just chooses to face them, to overcome them, to become great. That is, great by Evil standards.

I'll readily admit, however, that some are simply mooks, pawns, rubes and idiots. They buy into the hype, they drink the kool-aid, and they wind up in a bad place wondering what went wrong. They're the easiest targets for the ones who know what they're doing.

EDIT:


I like this response a lot. I think my character would look forward to an afterlife of intrigue and backstabbing! ALSO: Stealing that quote. It's pretty mint.

By all means. And my influence expands.

ondonaflash
2015-05-08, 09:12 PM
Or so the Archclerics tell it... Who knows if they're telling you the whole story.

They'd be fools, to tell you everything they knew. You can't take their word for it. They're probably trying to double cross you!

Cluedrew
2015-05-08, 09:17 PM
I'll readily admit, however, that some are simply mooks, pawns, rubes and idiots. They buy into the hype, they drink the kool-aid, and they wind up in a bad place wondering what went wrong. They're the easiest targets for the ones who know what they're doing.A lot of people have this problem on some scale, sometimes this bad, sometimes in an insignificant way, often somewhere in between.

This reminds me of a story I wrote a some time ago. Skipping most of it one part that sticks with me is the death of the main villains number 2. He was a rough guy, didn't was regularly, wore worn out clothing and rarely smiled when not in a life-or-death situation. You only get one thought line from him the entire story, as he sees the attack that will kill him coming in. "So this is it. I wonder if I'll go to hell. Maybe their will be people like me there... that would be nice." It really is a matter of perspective what 'heaven' is. For him it was an endless fight for his life and comradely which he never found in life.

On a similar note I've heard some descriptions of heaven from the times of the witch hunt with are rather messed up. Which shows quite in a very different way that it is a matter of perspective.

Ettina
2015-05-08, 09:18 PM
If powerful evil clerics exist, surely they would be aware that being Evil is a bad idea. They have the power to visit Hell and see whether there are actual awards awaiting them.

Powerful evil clerics get the rewards, ordinary evil joes get eaten.

YossarianLives
2015-05-08, 09:30 PM
Let me ask one question. Why would only a handful of souls be turned into lemures? Why would the souls be fed to other devils when each one of those souls could be another loyal servant?

It makes no sense! Why do devils even need to eat? If the archdevils supposed to be smart why would they waste perfectly good souls that could be assisting them in the blood war?

Milo v3
2015-05-08, 09:42 PM
Outsiders specifically don't need to eat, so I doubt devils would lower their productivity by such a severe degree when they could shape the petitioners into more minions.

Hmm... Lemure and then a devil after a billion or so years, would actually probably be a fine afterlife. I mean, lemure are mindless so you wouldn't suffer ("sure" getting to the mindless state involves your petitioner form being tortured but that's short term pain, when your soul is literally eternal rather than being gobbled up by daemons or demons or intrinsically altered into a slaad or protean).

Maglubiyet
2015-05-08, 10:22 PM
...victory in Hell is pretty damned impressive - Devils are recognizable symbols of Evil power, authority, and success.

Probably many mortals only see the flashy, powerful devils and not the endless fields of lemures. They assume they're going to be one of the big guys, like how some people think when they join the Navy they get to become a SEAL.

I'm sure the brochures for the Hells only show things like Pit Fiends with flaming whips. Your real fate will be in the fine print.

Brookshw
2015-05-08, 10:25 PM
Let me ask one question. Why would only a handful of souls be turned into lemures? Why would the souls be fed to other devils when each one of those souls could be another loyal servant?

It makes no sense! Why do devils even need to eat? If the archdevils supposed to be smart why would they waste perfectly good souls that could be assisting them in the blood war?

Iirc a portion are used to power various evil mechanations/rituals/etc, the value of the soul as an energy supply outweighs the benefit offered by yet another schmuck, especially when the supply of schmucks and rubes is in such ready supply. Checkout Guide to Hell, Faces of Evil and Unbound if you want further info on the numbers, 3e content is a bit short on the topic and I have no idea about later editions.

Karl Aegis
2015-05-08, 11:08 PM
Even the lowly lemure is pretty high in the hierarchy of Baator. One of them could still rip apart most of the other denizens of Hell pretty easily. You could be a fiendish kobold commoner who works in the mines all day or a fiendish dire rat at the beck and call of first level wizards. Having actual damage reduction makes you far superior to a random fiendish humanoid race even if you don't have a mind to enjoy your superiority.

hamishspence
2015-05-09, 01:21 AM
Hierarchy isn't a matter of power - but orders - who gives orders, and who takes them.

A lemure is less intelligent even than a fiendish animal - it cannot give orders.

I can just imagine a fiendish rat directing a small squad of lemures.

Orderic
2015-05-09, 05:00 AM
From what I have read, souls are not devoured in hell. They are merely tortured.

Tortured, to extract all of the energy within the soul, to give power to other devils while slowly stripping away all that makes the soul a person, until there are no memories, no personality, nothing. Nothing, except for an empty shell, corrupted by hellish powers and turned into a devil itself. A lemure, to be precise.

So sure, you will be a lemure if you go to hell. You will have a chance, to eventually prove your worth and advance, if you are succesfull enough. Of course, that will not be you. You have been destroyed by all of the torture.

hamishspence
2015-05-09, 06:12 AM
In Fiendish Codex 2 and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) it's mentioned that it's possible for really exceptional souls to get (or bargain for) automatic promotion to something other than a lemure - though it should be rare.

Anonymouswizard
2015-05-09, 06:18 AM
In my ex-D&D (now GURPS) setting, hell doesn't torture you don't get tortured for being too evil in hell, but not evil enough. About 0.1% are the right kind of evil for hell, and so shuttled off to a remote department for 100 years, given a desk job and allowed to learn the system and mature into a devil. A few eventually work their way up to chief of immigration or the like before their term is up. After the ~100 years they are a unique devil, and allowed back into the main hierarchy to play the game, at least one archdevil got his start this way.

1% to 10% are determined as needing help, and are so transformed into mindless drones, but are then allowed to mature and regain their memories, and climb the ladder if they survive.

The rest are either tortured for energy, sent off to fight the blood war, or suck into a gem to become a demon's personal soul battery. In the rare case that they remain sane long enough to become a devil, they are made 'commanders in the blood war' who have to survive and prove their worth before they can think of being excepted.

Elderand
2015-05-09, 06:31 AM
Being evil and expecting to get the reward of the evil afterlife where you get to climb the ranks of the hellish hierarchy is a lot like the american dream or playing the lottery: it happens just often enough to keep ropping in more suckers.

Hawkstar
2015-05-09, 09:31 AM
There's more to it than that. Whether afterlife is or isn't a reward is rather immaterial to how someone truly Evil would choose to live their life.

Notice how Clerics, specifically, can remain non-good even though they have high Wisdom? Even though they, of all people, should be able to see what's wrong with it?

They actually see beyond that. They have the necessary mental skills to jump through the hoops necessary to believe that the universe's morality is wrong, and their morality is right (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19198638&postcount=13), and then the willpower to stick with their stance no matter what. They're the ultimate sort of idealist. Even if their designated afterlife would be the worst thing ever, they would still stick with their beliefs because that is, to them, what's right. You don't yield before the feeble morality of the world and its meager rewards, even if it costs you everything.This is an awesome explanation for Ur-Priests and nontheistic clerics, but, for theistic clerics, a better idea is "Clerics are suitably rewarded by their patrons". Clerics get the good stuff. Warlocks and everyone else are screwed over. Monks accept that being screwed over is their ordained lot in life, and objecting to it would be hubris, and failing to adhere to it would be heretical blasphemy.

I realized my original blanket statement instead applied more to Warlocks than Clerics. (And on that note, I need to homebrew a "Saint" patron for Warlocks in 5e to handle good-aligned Miracle Men+evangelists.)

However, I keep seeing the subtext that there's something fair about how the Hells or Evil planes work. There isn't - they're EVIL.

Frozen_Feet
2015-05-09, 10:20 AM
This is an awesome explanation for Ur-Priests and nontheistic clerics, but, for theistic clerics, a better idea is "Clerics are suitably rewarded by their patrons".

These are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of Evil gods and Arch-Devils and other suitable patrons of Evil theistic worship have a "rage against the Heavens" schtick going on. In fact, some follow the described mindset themselves and give benefits to followers precisely to net allies in a fight against what they perceive as wrong.


However, I keep seeing the subtext that there's something fair about how the Hells or Evil planes work. There isn't - they're EVIL.
On the contrary, my point is that a truly Evil character would be explicitly aware of the unfairness and still willing to accept it.

Darth Ultron
2015-05-09, 10:21 AM
A big thing about the Hells is all the half-truths and deceit about it. Red Fel's actually wrong about the hells being 'heavenly' to LE - they are led to believe that it's a world they can climb the ranks and become powerful Archdevils. They aren't told that:
1. They're most likely to just be devoured.
2. If they aren't, they're completely destroyed and rewritten.
3. Almost all archdevil places are taken.
4. The perks are only for qualified individuals, which you are not.


Though the ''half truths and deceit'' is for all alignments. It is not just something evil does. After all that lawful good person just becomes a little ball of light (a lantern archon) in heaven. And they are just as likely to be destroyed, and all the high up good ranks are full. And there are others that are more qualified then you.

Hawkstar
2015-05-09, 10:30 AM
These are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of Evil gods and Arch-Devils and other suitable patrons of Evil theistic worship have a "rage against the Heavens" schtick going on. In fact, some follow the described mindset themselves and give benefits to followers precisely to net allies in a fight against what they perceive as wrong.Yet, I think those arch-devils and evil gods still reward their followers who follow them, and try to reshape morality to fit their view, while the Nontheistic clerics and Ur-Priests accept that their afterlives will not be pleasant, but will endure it for philosophical reasons (Sort of like the Evil equivalent of a Good-aligned Hero letting his soul get destroyed/damned to 'do the right thing'.)

On the contrary, my point is that a truly Evil character would be explicitly aware of the unfairness and still willing to accept it.[/QUOTE]Eh.. I don't think so. They'd see it as 'fair' on some cosmological level.


Though the ''half truths and deceit'' is for all alignments. It is not just something evil does. After all that lawful good person just becomes a little ball of light (a lantern archon) in heaven. And they are just as likely to be destroyed, and all the high up good ranks are full. And there are others that are more qualified then you.Except in the good-aligned planes, the low-ranked celestials have extremely good lives, while the more powerful ones get all the responsibilities of power without any of the pay and abuse perks. Higher-level archons are just too responsible to settle for being lantern archons again.

Karl Aegis
2015-05-09, 11:06 AM
In the Seven Heavens of Mount Celestia, if you journey to the top of the mountains by discovering the true philosophy of lawful good you become part of the plane. You lose any semblance of mortality you ever had, betraying all mortals who came before you and to come. You become an obstacle other mortals have to overcome to discover the true philosophy of lawful good. Your just reward for a hard journey to the top of the mountain is to be trampled on by other people trying to do the same thing you did as you try to prevent them from doing the exact same thing you did.

Sounds exactly like Hell, doesn't it? Except the process is expedited because devils turn you into a part of the plane themselves instead of you having to do it yourself.

Hawkstar
2015-05-09, 11:12 AM
In the Seven Heavens of Mount Celestia, if you journey to the top of the mountains by discovering the true philosophy of lawful good you become part of the plane. You lose any semblance of mortality you ever had, betraying all mortals who came before you and to come. You become an obstacle other mortals have to overcome to discover the true philosophy of lawful good. Your just reward for a hard journey to the top of the mountain is to be trampled on by other people trying to do the same thing you did as you try to prevent them from doing the exact same thing you did.

Sounds exactly like Hell, doesn't it? Except the process is expedited because devils turn you into a part of the plane themselves instead of you having to do it yourself.Where the heck are you getting all this nonsense from? And also - you gave up all semblence of mortality when you died. And you also have a very loose definition of 'betrayal'.

Anonymouswizard
2015-05-09, 12:47 PM
In the Seven Heavens of Mount Celestia, if you journey to the top of the mountains by discovering the true philosophy of lawful good you become part of the plane. You lose any semblance of mortality you ever had, betraying all mortals who came before you and to come. You become an obstacle other mortals have to overcome to discover the true philosophy of lawful good. Your just reward for a hard journey to the top of the mountain is to be trampled on by other people trying to do the same thing you did as you try to prevent them from doing the exact same thing you did.

Sounds exactly like Hell, doesn't it? Except the process is expedited because devils turn you into a part of the plane themselves instead of you having to do it yourself.

If you come out of it with a mind intact, your goal is probably to guide others to the same place as whatever fits your skills best. Hell expedites the process, but goes a worse job.

Cluedrew
2015-05-09, 12:54 PM
"Final Rest" or some stage in the afterlife where you stop being a functioning individual and either "sleep" forever, assimilate into something or in the case of evils are worn down into oblivion is quite common in stories with an afterlife. I think it is partially for the continence of not having the afterlife overcrowded.

Then again some say immortality (living forever in our world) is a bad idea because it would stagnate society, maybe the same thing can be said of the afterlife?

Brookshw
2015-05-09, 02:58 PM
In the Seven Heavens of Mount Celestia, if you journey to the top of the mountains by discovering the true philosophy of lawful good you become part of the plane. You lose any semblance of mortality you ever had, betraying all mortals who came before you and to come. You become an obstacle other mortals have to overcome to discover the true philosophy of lawful good. Your just reward for a hard journey to the top of the mountain is to be trampled on by other people trying to do the same thing you did as you try to prevent them from doing the exact same thing you did.

Sounds exactly like Hell, doesn't it? Except the process is expedited because devils turn you into a part of the plane themselves instead of you having to do it yourself.

Huh? No one knows what happens to people when they reach the top pf the mountain last I checked. Not sure where any of this is coming from really.

NowhereMan583
2015-05-09, 09:00 PM
In Fiendish Codex 2 and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) it's mentioned that it's possible for really exceptional souls to get (or bargain for) automatic promotion to something other than a lemure - though it should be rare.

Though I am not familiar with these texts, this is pretty much how I run things in my games.

If you're Evil in the sense of just being a bad person -- say, a corrupt Captain of the Guard -- then the devils just don't care about you and your soul is probably going to be used to power a ritual or otherwise consumed.

If you made the conscious decision in life to serve the powers of Evil, then you'll be a conscious servant of Evil in death -- but if you were just part of the rank-and-file, like a Hextorian soldier or an acolyte of Asmodeus or something, you're going right into the Blood War meatgrinder, because you're still just another disposable minion. If you want to climb the ranks, you've got a long climb ahead of you.

Exceptionally powerful servants of Evil -- say, a high priest or a powerful warlock -- will usually go out of their way to strike a deal with a devil at some point to secure a better place in the afterlife. What exactly that place is depends on the personal power of the mortal and how happy their diabolic patron is with their work. This has happened once in my campaign -- a PC with a "whatever it takes" approach to his mission of wiping a rival nation off the map was offered a deal by a representative of Dispater that included an afterlife clause as follows:

Rather than becoming a petitioner of whatever plane your soul is destined for (i.e., probably Hell at this point), you will become an outsider native to that plane, of a strength dependent on your level at time of death. The rate of exchange (which can be as inauspicious as 10 levels/HD or as beneficial as 2 levels/HD) is dependent on the degree to which you are in the favor of Dispater.
The PC's method for accomplishing his goal was not favorably received by Dispater; he had been instructed to act covertly and, um, didn't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327196-Weaknesses-of-Far-Realms-esque-Horrors). He got to be an imp, and is permanently assigned to the material plane as military advisor to whatever evil flavor-of-the-week wants one.

Of course, if you are an Evil priest of exceptional power and don't get around to making some sort of deal... clearly, you lack foresight and deserve to be tossed into the Blood War with the rest of the less-favored souls.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-09, 10:01 PM
I also remember reading somewhere that the souls are tortured for several millennia or something until they have absolutely zero memory of their lives. The lose everything and become empty vessels of evil. Only then are they allowed to begin their slow climb up the diabolical ranks.

Centik
2015-05-10, 05:41 AM
Though I am not familiar with these texts, this is pretty much how I run things in my games.

If you're Evil in the sense of just being a bad person -- say, a corrupt Captain of the Guard -- then the devils just don't care about you and your soul is probably going to be used to power a ritual or otherwise consumed.

If you made the conscious decision in life to serve the powers of Evil, then you'll be a conscious servant of Evil in death -- but if you were just part of the rank-and-file, like a Hextorian soldier or an acolyte of Asmodeus or something, you're going right into the Blood War meatgrinder, because you're still just another disposable minion. If you want to climb the ranks, you've got a long climb ahead of you.

Exceptionally powerful servants of Evil -- say, a high priest or a powerful warlock -- will usually go out of their way to strike a deal with a devil at some point to secure a better place in the afterlife. What exactly that place is depends on the personal power of the mortal and how happy their diabolic patron is with their work. This has happened once in my campaign -- a PC with a "whatever it takes" approach to his mission of wiping a rival nation off the map was offered a deal by a representative of Dispater that included an afterlife clause as follows:

The PC's method for accomplishing his goal was not favorably received by Dispater; he had been instructed to act covertly and, um, didn't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327196-Weaknesses-of-Far-Realms-esque-Horrors). He got to be an imp, and is permanently assigned to the material plane as military advisor to whatever evil flavor-of-the-week wants one.

Of course, if you are an Evil priest of exceptional power and don't get around to making some sort of deal... clearly, you lack foresight and deserve to be tossed into the Blood War with the rest of the less-favored souls.

This is about where my DM and I have gotten. Long story short, my character, a high priest of Asmodeus, was tasked by Asmo himself to return the ruby rod stolen, successfully this time, by Baphomet. He didn't want to cause a war between Baphomet and himself, so I was tasked with the rod's return. As our contract's reward, I was offered a higher-standing position in the afterlife.

Sith_Happens
2015-05-10, 06:51 AM
In Fiendish Codex 2 and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) it's mentioned that it's possible for really exceptional souls to get (or bargain for) automatic promotion to something other than a lemure - though it should be rare.

Eh, anyone who doesn't make sure this is one of the rewards from their diabolic pact deserves what they get.


Being evil and expecting to get the reward of the evil afterlife where you get to climb the ranks of the hellish hierarchy is a lot like the american dream or playing the lottery: it happens just often enough to keep ropping in more suckers.

Of course this interpretation is fun too.

Icewraith
2015-05-11, 06:51 PM
Eh, anyone who doesn't make sure this is one of the rewards from their diabolic pact deserves what they get.



Of course this interpretation is fun too.

The problem is there's usually some fine print in there that kills your guaranteed promotion if you die and your evil plans are thwarted by adventurers. Thus, Evil characters are motivated to always go down swinging, and often take incredible risks or sacrifice or detonate their own souls for revenge. They're desperately trying to avoid ending up as a soul husk powering some devilish blood war siege engine for eternity. Any artifact or ritual that guaranteed devours, imprisons, or annihilates souls and will enact glorious revenge on those who thwarted their rise to hellish power is a win-win for a devilish cultist who has just ended up on the wrong side of one of these contracts.

In fact, once you blow the contract, Hell tends to arrange things to move pretty quickly and claim its own precisely because of these sort of shenanigans. Cultists that plan poorly and get thwarted tend to flee wildly, yammering in fear. Sometimes they are murdered under mysterious circumstances. Sometimes their body betrays them after a week or two of terror, their hearts give out or their minds break and they spend the remaining years of their lives as asylum-bound husks in a preview of their eternal torment.

Sometimes they seek refuge in good aligned temples and strive for redemption until an unseasonable storm rocks the temple. The doomed cultist retreats to an interior corner of the temple and surrounds themselves with holy candles and incense. The temple doors burst open from the powerful wind, torches and candles flicker and die. The relentless darkness envelops the cultist and when the last candle flickers out, the cultist's contract-bound soul compels the body to scream.*

Once the temple's occupants restore light, they find a lifeless, soulless corpse contorted and twisted in a rictus of horror, mouth agape and blood leaking from every orifice. At that point it's a race against time to destroy the corpse, preferably by burning it to ash, soaking the remainder in holy water, and scattering it to the winds before it can rise as some form of unspeakable undead. They don't bother with anti-ethereal/ghost measures- there certainly won't be any soul left hanging around to haunt the temple.

*At least one cultist tried wiring their jaw shut and wearing full plate. The remains of the helm are on display in an art museum, claiming to commemorate the cataclysmic eruption of a local volcano.

Hawkstar
2015-05-11, 09:05 PM
Sometimes they seek refuge in good aligned temples and strive for redemption until an unseasonable storm rocks the temple. The doomed cultist retreats to an interior corner of the temple and surrounds themselves with holy candles and incense. The temple doors burst open from the powerful wind, torches and candles flicker and die. The relentless darkness envelops the cultist and when the last candle flickers out, the cultist's contract-bound soul compels the body to scream.* Which is why the best alignment for redemption is Chaotic Good - In that corner, the Pact Primeval and all other diabolical contracts are glorified toilet paper.

VoxRationis
2015-05-11, 09:31 PM
@Hawkstar:
Not to mention that a lantern archon is a state infinitely preferable to being a lemure, which is a constantly tortured being whose very form betrays them at all times. The archon also has a higher survivability compared with its fiendish counterparts; perfect flight and DR-ignoring light beams are, mechanically speaking, much better than feeble clawing at the enemy.

Segev
2015-05-12, 11:27 AM
I can see evil clerics engaging in a sort of Ponzi Scheme - particularly the NE ones - wherein the more souls they can bring in to the fold, the better their starting position. Of course, acolytes count towards their masters' totals, and by proxy a portion of all those they convert count towards their masters' totals, unless said acolyte can somehow usurp his master. When you get promoted, of course, you stop owing so much to those who came before you, and can reap more for yourself.

There are a lot of dupes at the bottom, of course; they're your currency, what you take with you when you die.


LE clerics probably have a little bit less of a currency-bean-counting exercise, and more of a "as in life, so in the afterlife" position. The rituals, sacrifices, pacts, etc. are about sealing their place in a hierarchy that extends far, far beyond the petty mortal existence in which they dwell. The fact that being "high lemur of the 9,545th demiplane of the lesser shadow of Stygia" is not nearly as impressive as being "high priest of the (comparatively tiny) kingdom of Lothasia in the (backwater) Prime Plane of Pthrea," since now you can see just how low you are... well, that's okay. You just have to work HARDER to get promoted HIGHER.

CE clerics - and practitioners of any alignment - are best served by finding ways to be as mighty as they can; that's what they'll take with them when they die, and that's what they'll use to bully, beat, and batter their way into dominant positions over others, so they can use those others to crush and compel still others.

Elderand
2015-05-12, 12:26 PM
CE clerics - and practitioners of any alignment - are best served by finding ways to be as mighty as they can; that's what they'll take with them when they die, and that's what they'll use to bully, beat, and batter their way into dominant positions over others, so they can use those others to crush and compel still others.

Actually there is a good chance all your effort in life are useless, for dnd at least and 3rd edition for sure dying turn you into a petitionner

That reduce you to 2d8, all classes abilities ? Gone, all non classes abilities ? Only (ex) ones remains.
Not matter who you were once you die you're reduced to something that's about as strong as the average lemure.

Aldrakan
2015-05-13, 05:51 PM
Being evil and expecting to get the reward of the evil afterlife where you get to climb the ranks of the hellish hierarchy is a lot like the american dream or playing the lottery: it happens just often enough to keep ropping in more suckers.

I would add that it also appeals to the kind of jackass who's done well in life and assumes it's all due to their talent and hard work, willfully blind to their own good fortune in birth or circumstance. Exactly the sort of person who would assume that a system of constant backstabbing and competition would suit them just fine until they have to actually start at the bottom.

Shamash
2015-05-13, 07:16 PM
Or we can go Lovecraft.
The evil cleric is so mad, so insane that hell is not punishment it is bliss.

If the evil demon lord is going to get out of the abyss and kill the gods and forge an era of eternal darkness.
Why not just serve the inevitable demon lord for a quick death. it is death no less but it is less painful.

The demon is so evil that there is no reward in the end just a less terrible punishment.
As the Lovecraft cultists say "To be eaten first is better than to see the entire world being destroyed".

I serve not to be spared for all will be consumed but I rather be the first one to eaten than to see the whole world being burned and devoured by abominations from another dimension.

So your reward for being a evil cleric is that your souls is just devoured, if you are not a cleric you are tortured first. Sound a mad and evil reason for someone to serve beings made of pure evil. Who are going to bite your ass later.

Icewraith
2015-05-14, 12:59 PM
Which is why the best alignment for redemption is Chaotic Good - In that corner, the Pact Primeval and all other diabolical contracts are glorified toilet paper.

"Best alignment for redemption?"

A CG character is unlikely to get themselves into a soul-binding diabolical contract, but once they're in one, being CG or successfully (unlikely if you're the sort of person willing to sign a contract in the first place) changing alignment to CG won't help. To nullify a contract you either need to find a loophole in the terms of the contract, get the devil controlling the contract to agree to nullify it in exchange for a significant service (that will probably claim your soul anyways), or destroy the section of the devilish hierarchy concerned with enforcing your contract (while the hierarchy goes all the way to the top, the movers and shakers of Hell don't usually concern themselves with individual mortal contracts).

Hawkstar
2015-05-14, 01:29 PM
"Best alignment for redemption?"

A CG character is unlikely to get themselves into a soul-binding diabolical contract, but once they're in one, being CG or successfully (unlikely if you're the sort of person willing to sign a contract in the first place) changing alignment to CG won't help. To nullify a contract you either need to find a loophole in the terms of the contract, get the devil controlling the contract to agree to nullify it in exchange for a significant service (that will probably claim your soul anyways), or destroy the section of the devilish hierarchy concerned with enforcing your contract (while the hierarchy goes all the way to the top, the movers and shakers of Hell don't usually concern themselves with individual mortal contracts).
Or fall in with the "In" crowd in CG, and kick the asses of the devils trying to collect on the contract. Chaotic doesn't give a damn about how 'valid' a contract may be.

Also - one of the stipulations in the Pact Primeval is that Devils can only enforce a soul-bargain with people who are Lawful Evil, or are Lawful and sufficiently Corrupt, or Evil and sufficiently obedient.

Flickerdart
2015-05-14, 01:35 PM
or destroy the section of the devilish hierarchy concerned with enforcing your contract (while the hierarchy goes all the way to the top, the movers and shakers of Hell don't usually concern themselves with individual mortal contracts).
There's a bit of a problem with that plan - anyone who is able to murder an entire department of devils becomes notable for devils higher up the food chain, and killing all of those just brings you to the attention of still more powerful devils.

Hawkstar
2015-05-14, 02:10 PM
There's a bit of a problem with that plan - anyone who is able to murder an entire department of devils becomes notable for devils higher up the food chain, and killing all of those just brings you to the attention of still more powerful devils.

At some point, the devils realize they're in for a raw deal, though. You usually don't have to destroy the entire department first, though - just kick enough ass to get them to say 'Nope, not worth our effort".

Brookshw
2015-05-14, 03:14 PM
At some point, the devils realize they're in for a raw deal, though. You usually don't have to destroy the entire department first, though - just kick enough ass to get them to say 'Nope, not worth our effort".

Interesting thought though given the terms of the pact primevil I have to wonder if they're obligated to collect the soul, albeit via token attempts, aka more lemures fed into a different meat grinder.

Icewraith
2015-05-14, 04:09 PM
At some point, the devils realize they're in for a raw deal, though. You usually don't have to destroy the entire department first, though - just kick enough ass to get them to say 'Nope, not worth our effort".

It's sort of like franchises or car dealerships or stocks. Archdevils don't have the time for all that temptation crap, so they grant power to a tier of lieutenants, who have their own lieutenants, etc. In exchange for the favors used to tempt mortals plus a commission, tempter devils trade ownership of the contract back two or three steps up the chain. This is where you get the "buffer" zone of devils that are powerful and clever, but not quite powerful and clever enough to really make it into the upper hierarchies. Devils that get "stuck" in this tier try to accumulate as many contracts as possible and try use the power granted through having so many contracts to sell the contracts back down a tier to devils so desperate to advance another tier that they're willing and able to be the one ultimately responsible for enforcing a contract in exchange for some power from the higher-tiered devil. A devil that manages to sell off all the responsibility for enforcing their contracts to underlings while remaining in the chain for the power granted to enforce them has managed to get out of this tier and into the realm of the truly powerful- probably two or three tiers away from archdevilship.

The more powerful a contracted mortal becomes, the more of a risk it is that they'll start gunning for the devil that controls their contract. Sometimes a contracted mortal will grow personally powerful far quicker than the controlling devil anticipated. This is a great opportunity and a great risk depending on how smart the mortal is and whether or not their desires are within the devil's power to grant. A powerful, useful mortal's contract can be sold at a great personal profit, but the more power a devil needs from its masters to grant mortal desires the more indebted that devil becomes, usually ending up having to take on riskier, subpar contracts with other unruly mortals to compensate. Devils that really screw up often end up having to sell off their useful contracts and do demeaning things like answering summons and divinations, but if they end up with a truly powerful mortal that the next couple tiers of devils don't want to mess with and none of the lower tiers of devils are stupid enough to take, they either need to get the mortal killed and collect on the soul or end up with the remaining bits of their evil reabsorbed into the lower planes.

Elderand
2015-05-14, 05:51 PM
In simpler terms, hell is a pyramid scheme

Ettina
2015-05-16, 10:30 AM
Of course, there are also the evil guys who plan on never dying, such as liches. If you never have to face your afterlife, why plan for it?

(Though it probably really sucks to be a lich who gets perma-killed.)

Brookshw
2015-05-17, 06:55 AM
In simpler terms, hell is a pyramid scheme

Except if your not part of the Department of Mortal Relations (yes, that's a thing) and your trying to entice souls then things go very bad for you. Hell screws you on every level :smallwink:

Clistenes
2015-05-17, 09:42 AM
Powerful evil clerics get the rewards, ordinary evil joes get eaten.

Let me ask one question. Why would only a handful of souls be turned into lemures? Why would the souls be fed to other devils when each one of those souls could be another loyal servant?

It makes no sense! Why do devils even need to eat? If the archdevils supposed to be smart why would they waste perfectly good souls that could be assisting them in the blood war?

Evil deities probably keep their deceased Clerics and Templars around, maybe even turning them into some kind of powerful Undead, but your run of the mill Commoner is more useful even as the least kind of fiend than as a Petitioner. If they have to spend ten larvae to get a dretch, they do it gladly. They probably even buy larvae from archfiends to get more fodder for their fiend factories.

Devils and Yugoloths don't care about numbers, they care about excellency. They are willing to waste thousands of souls to make sure that only fiends of the purest alignment are produced.

Demons just don't care. They want to torture and hurt stuff, and that's all.

As for the OP...I think many evil people don't realize that they are evil and that they are going to go to a bad place. Magic is supposed to be rare, and travelling Clerics don't spend all their spell slots casting Detect Evil. And even if they are told that they are Evil, many people just wouldn't believe it.

Evil Clerics probably expect to get positions of power after death. Lay worshippers of Evil deities are probably deluded into believing that their sacrifices will buy them a safe and nice place after death (they are wrong).

This reminds me a Neil Gaiman comic. Two British teen sacrificed a schoolmate to Satan, expecting to receive a position of power and respect after death in exchange for that good soul. A bit later they died of a disease, they went to Hell and when they demanded to be well treated the fiends laughed at them: The boy they have killed had gone to Heaven, but they would be tortured forever.

Hawkstar
2015-05-17, 10:28 AM
Let me ask one question. Why would only a handful of souls be turned into lemures?Because the rest aren't worthwhile to do so

Why would the souls be fed to other devils when each one of those souls could be another loyal servant?Because a good meal is more valuable than another worthless minion.


It makes no sense! Why do devils even need to eat?Same reason everyone and everything else does. They just have different dietary requirements to stay alive and grow stronger (And it DOES make them grow stronger)


If the archdevils supposed to be smart why would they waste perfectly good souls that could be assisting them in the blood war?Because those souls are nothing but XP fodder for the enemy, and it's not worth the time to try to train, equip, manage, and maneuver those worthless husks that won't do anything but feed their enemies more power.

Zalphon
2015-05-17, 06:47 PM
And don't forget that the Blood War is ultimately pointless. Even the Lords of the Nine and Demon Lords like Graz'zt know that.

Milo v3
2015-05-17, 07:02 PM
Because a good meal is more valuable than another worthless minion.

Same reason everyone and everything else does. They just have different dietary requirements to stay alive and grow stronger (And it DOES make them grow stronger).

But outsiders don't need to eat.

Hawkstar
2015-05-17, 07:11 PM
But outsiders don't need to eat.Only in the sense that they don't take penalties and subdual damage for not chomping down some Iron Rations every week. The game otherwise doesn't try to model Outsider lifestyles, because that's beyond its scope.

D&D's 'simulationism' is restricted to modeling how humans live, with everything else awkwardly kludged together.

Milo v3
2015-05-17, 07:55 PM
Only in the sense that they don't take penalties and subdual damage for not chomping down some Iron Rations every week. The game otherwise doesn't try to model Outsider lifestyles, because that's beyond its scope.

D&D's 'simulationism' is restricted to modeling how humans live, with everything else awkwardly kludged together.

But the outsider type specifically says they don't need to eat. It's not just that the game doesn't describe them eating or say what there diet is.... Outsiders don't need to eat. Aberrations, Animals, Dragons, Fey, Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Oozes, Plants, and Vermind need to eat. But outsiders, they are sustained without needing to consume.

THEChanger
2015-05-17, 08:07 PM
But the outsider type specifically says they don't need to eat. It's not just that the game doesn't describe them eating or say what there diet is.... Outsiders don't need to eat. Aberrations, Animals, Dragons, Fey, Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Oozes, Plants, and Vermind need to eat. But outsiders, they are sustained without needing to consume.

Sustained, yes. Any given Outsider, if it desired to maintain its current shape and power, could sequester itself away in a cave forever, and not need for anything. However, very few Outsiders have no desire to grow, and in the case of Evil Outsiders, the consumption of souls is one way to go about that. So strictly speaking, no, they do not need to eat in order to survive. But to grow...to become greater than they are...consuming souls is one of the easier methods available to do this.

Flickerdart
2015-05-17, 08:08 PM
Fiends eat souls not for sustenance, but for pleasure - both the taste and the knowledge that they are snuffing out a soul forever. It's a power trip, wrapped in a crunchy tortilla shell.

Centik
2015-05-18, 09:30 AM
Fiends eat souls not for sustenance, but for pleasure - both the taste and the knowledge that they are snuffing out a soul forever. It's a power trip, wrapped in a crunchy tortilla shell.

Diabolically delicious. :smallamused:

Bigby
2015-05-18, 02:14 PM
Mmm, Soul Flakes.