Pathfinder and summoning

[Rumo]

Hi,

my 3.5 group is switching from to Pathfinder, and while trying to grasp the changes regarding rules and evaluations, today I found a tier list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11990.0) that left me with the feeling that there is something that I don't quite understand. Arcanist is up there with the other full spellcasters on the top tier. While Mutant Warrior is labeled tier 4, or in other words "not completely useless but rather close".

While I am aware that Fighters were rather 2nd rate characters in 3.5, I just don't see it in PF. In the process of our group's conversion, one of our players has become a mutant with a keen falcion +1. Her Power Attack hits with +17/+10, deals 2D4+22 damage and crits at 15-20. Reminds me of the Frenzied Berserker, only without the unpleasant side-effects.
This even makes me wonder how my 3-tiers-better guy can be of much use when it comes to combat situations. Yes, I can haste her, and I can enlarge her, and then watch her chop small armies on her own - while maybe throwing in the occasional Grease or Stinking Cloud. I suppose that would make me useful enough to be more than a sidekick.
But my initial idea was to play an Occultist Arcanist. Summon spells as standard actions, to be paid with magical energy, lasting 10 times longer than usual, and I'd gain access to them 1 level earlier sounds wonderful. And in various guides on the internet Occultist is rated to be one of the better Archetypes. But what's the point of summoning a boar with +4 attack and 1D8+4 damage, when I can give the fighter (and not only her and more bonuses that I leave unmentioned) another +17 2D4+22 15-crit attack by hasting? Do I miss something, or is summoning just something that I should forget about in PF?

[icefractal]

Summon spells are some of the more static in effectiveness. Which means they're often great in a low-wealth game, and can look overwhelmingly good with a low-op party, but in an optimized group they get anemic. There are a couple things that boost them in PF (Augment Summoning, Evolved Summon Monster), but nowhere near what 3.5 had.

That said, there are still some things you can do with them - use them as meat shields, summon things with useful SLAs or other abilities, use them for scouting or handling dangerous things. But you probably won't be able to make that impressive a combat showing on your summons alone.

Fortunately, you're not limited to your summons alone. As an Arcanist, you still have full casting to fall back on, and that's plenty strong to be on par with (or exceed) a Mutant Warrior. But it does raise the question of whether, in this group, Occultist is the archetype to go with - maybe not.

[Psyren]

While Mutant Warrior is labeled tier 4, or in other words "not completely useless but rather close".

That definition is for T5 actually. T4 is more "capable but slightly underpowered, either due to only being good at one thing, or above-average at a lot of things."



While I am aware that Fighters were rather 2nd rate characters in 3.5, I just don't see it in PF. In the process of our group's conversion, one of our players has become a mutant with a keen falcion +1. Her Power Attack hits with +17/+10, deals 2D4+22 damage and crits at 15-20. Reminds me of the Frenzied Berserker, only without the unpleasant side-effects.
This even makes me wonder how my 3-tiers-better guy can be of much use when it comes to combat situations. Yes, I can haste her, and I can enlarge her, and then watch her chop small armies on her own - while maybe throwing in the occasional Grease or Stinking Cloud. I suppose that would make me useful enough to be more than a sidekick.
But my initial idea was to play an Occultist Arcanist. Summon spells as standard actions, to be paid with magical energy, lasting 10 times longer than usual, and I'd gain access to them 1 level earlier sounds wonderful. And in various guides on the internet Occultist is rated to be one of the better Archetypes. But what's the point of summoning a boar with +4 attack and 1D8+4 damage, when I can give the fighter (and not only her and more bonuses that I leave unmentioned) another +17 2D4+22 15-crit attack by hasting? Do I miss something, or is summoning just something that I should forget about in PF?

Summoned monsters are supposed to be weaker than melee characters. The idea is that you can throw out a quick (and more importantly, disposable) body that can get between you and the baddies, more of a speed bump than a true tank. You can optimize them to be better, but the idea is that the game is subtly encouraging you to cast haste on that fighter rather than summon that boar and send it into melee yourself.

[Rumo]

This may be the case. But we are a small group, only 3 players + an admittedly strong Hunter's pet. I would think that if summoning can ever be a good idea, it should be in small groups, where an additional piece on the board has more effect.
For a moment I had thoughts like lesser wand of quicken spell -> summon monster -> haste on Mutant, Hunter, pet, summon. Unfortunately it seems that the first reasonably strong summons come at lvl 4 (or am I missing something?).

I was also consulting this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19eADtzhxjNq8n8esfos6gnmotwPAIFot-ouLztuQtqA/pub) for help. It recommends School Savant as the best archetype. I have to admit that I don't understand the exact meaning of:


The arcanist gains the abilities granted by that school, as the arcane school class feature of the wizard, treating her arcanist level as her wizard level for these abilities. She can also further specialize by selecting a subschool.

If I choose Conjuration, I gain Teleportation, Infernal Binder and Creation? And what does the subschool give me? Only the additional spell prep? Teleport is nice, but skipping 3 of my first 4 exploits rather hurts.

[Rumo]

Summoned monsters are supposed to be weaker than melee characters. The idea is that you can throw out a quick (and more importantly, disposable) body that can get between you and the baddies, more of a speed bump than a true tank. You can optimize them to be better, but the idea is that the game is subtly encouraging you to cast haste on that fighter rather than summon that boar and send it into melee yourself.

Yes, it goes without saying that my summon needs to be considerably weaker than the group's Fighter. Otherwise Fighter's had no reason to exist. But in this case - you could surround the Mutant with 8 boars, and she would still easily dispose of them (2 sttacks, always deadly, Cleave). This in my view gives the Occultist hardly a reason to exist, which I find to be a pity. 3 Summons to be a good match for the group's front fighter would be a good proportion, IMO.

[Psyren]

This may be the case. But we are a small group, only 3 players + an admittedly strong Hunter's pet. I would think that if summoning can ever be a good idea, it should be in small groups, where an additional piece on the board has more effect.

It is a good idea. Have you read Treantmonk's 3.5 Wizard guide? Specifically the part where he says "every time an enemy hits a summoned creature, you win." And he's right, because whenever they do that, they are wasting resources (actions) and not hurting your team in any way. This goes double if the monster can do nastier things like poison, curse or grapple on hit - you simply don't care if it does those things to your summon, whereas your party's mutation warrior might not be locked down.

"My summon is contributing to the group" is not the same as "My summon hits as hard as an optimized fighter." Expecting the latter isn't reasonable; the former is perfectly fine.


I was also consulting this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19eADtzhxjNq8n8esfos6gnmotwPAIFot-ouLztuQtqA/pub) for help. It recommends School Savant as the best archetype. I have to admit that I don't understand the exact meaning of:




If I choose Conjuration, I gain Teleportation, Infernal Binder and Creation? And what does the subschool give me? Only the additional spell prep? Teleport is nice, but skipping 3 of my first 4 exploits rather hurts.

Those three are the subschools of Conjuration - you can choose one, or stick with the base conjuration. Each one will replace one or more abilities that Conjuration would have given you.

Yes, you do lose 3 exploits, but if you choose wisely, the school abilities can outweigh that. More importantly, you get a bonus spell slot per level, which helps the arcanist out as they have very small spells/day (less than a generalist wizard.)

[Kurald Galain]

I was also consulting this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19eADtzhxjNq8n8esfos6gnmotwPAIFot-ouLztuQtqA/pub) for help. It recommends School Savant as the best archetype.

That depends on what you're building for. It may actually be better to play a conjuration wizard (who gets higher level spells a level earlier), or an arcanist with the school understanding exploit (who gets more exploits than the savant, which is one of the main reasons to play an arcanist).

[Eldaran]

I think you're misinterpreting the tiers and the value of summons. Brute type summons like boars are decently useful for taking hits, but the real value of summon monster is how incredibly versatile your summons can be, and versatility combined with power is what the tiers measure.

Look at Summon Monster 3, sure you can summon a boar and it will hit things much weaker than a fighter, but you could summon a Nosoi Psychopomp (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/psychopomp/psychopomp-nosoi) as an invisible scout, have it shut down a bunch of enemies with its fascinate ability, or have it cast a third level cleric spell at CL 12! Or maybe a Silvanshee Agathion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/agathion/agathion-silvanshee) who can cast a very useful 5th level spell at CL 12, have it scout in gaseous form at super speeds, buff your saves, and it can still pounce enemies if it needs to.

There's a ton of great options in every summon spell, the higher level outsiders have so many spell-likes it's like getting a hundred spell options for the cost of one slot.

[Rumo]

Okay, I get your points regarding summons. I suppose I was too much writing from my 3.5 Druid's view (other group), who really does summon stuff that can decide combats by their sheer fighting strenght.
And yes, I've already been wondering: Why become a School Savant (-3 exploits) when you can be a Wizard, gaining more spells and earlier access? The Arcanist's Sorcerer aspect is nice, and after level 7 you can start catching up with the most important exploits, but I wonder if that's worth it.

By the way, isn't this school (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination/foresight) completely overpowered? If I am not misinterpreting anything, this is 3+INTmodifier rerolls per day. (Okay, it's not exactly rerolls, but you can either take the foretelling result when it seems sufficient or "reroll" it). For any kinds of skill checks, saving throws, and maybe most importantly to overcome spell resistance. So you will only cast your Baleful Polymorph if your foretelling shows a happy ourcome. If it doesn't, you do buffs instead.

[Psyren]

By the way, isn't this school (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination/foresight) completely overpowered? If I am not misinterpreting anything, this is 3+INTmodifier rerolls per day. (Okay, it's not exactly rerolls, but you can either take the foretelling result when it seems sufficient or "reroll" it). For any kinds of skill checks, saving throws, and maybe most importantly to overcome spell resistance. So you will only cast your Baleful Polymorph if your foretelling shows a happy ourcome. If it doesn't, you do buffs instead.

Nah. It's useful, but you have to decide to do the foretelling before you know whether you'll need it or not, and if it doesn't come up or the roll is crap, you've wasted it. So the number of them you get is necessary just to cancel out those unfortunate attempts.

You're correct, one of the best uses for it is for rolling to beat SR - but again, you still have to actually roll well in the foretelling for it to mean anything. Someone calculated the effective value of a reroll on average before, and I think it came out to ~+4? So slightly better than Spell Penetration on average, which is itself on the weak end as feats go.

[Extra Anchovies]

Nah. It's useful, but you have to decide to do the foretelling before you know whether you'll need it or not, and if it doesn't come up or the roll is crap, you've wasted it. So the number of them you get is necessary just to cancel out those unfortunate attempts.

From the occasion that I've seen it in practice, it's really strong. But then, the DM in that game didn't throw more than two encounters at us per day, so the use limit wasn't as much of an issue as it would be normally.

And yeah, best of 2d20 averages to somewhere around +4 (slightly less IIRC).

[Rumo]

So about 10 times per day I can take +4 on any D20 roll of my choice. That does sound incredible to me. I mean it's not just combat, this would entice me to invest in skills like Bluff, Sense Motive and more, as I am virtually flooded with skill points anyway.

Being the noob I am, I have to ask a few more questions. Is my view correct, that School Savant is not very impressive considering the loss of 3 exploits right at the start, and the advantages that the Wizard has over the Arcanist?
Then I was looking at Wizard Archetypes, and didn't like most of them. One exception, the Primalist sounds interesting. Doesn't he just synergize beautifully with the Foresight ability? At the beginning of my turn I roll a die that will foretell me whether I can succeed at a concentration check, and if so, what spell level I can master. So unless I am really desperate, the primal magic will never blow in my face. And correct me if I'm wrong, the loss of Arcane Bond can be overcome by taking the Familar feat. Still I end up trading 3 feats for a few additional spells (and a few uses of Foretelling per day). I have to admit that I don't understand Enhance Primal Event. Primal Surge only seems to protect me from unwanted events that Foretelling will prevent anyway. I wonder if that Archetype is any good, or if I should stick with vanilla Wizard.

[Rumo]

I also wonder: Are there any good/fun prestige Classes for Wizards in PF? In 3.5 I loved Arcane Order and Archmage, Master Specialist was also nice, but looking through the PF prestige classes I can't really find anything that inspires me.

[Psyren]

So about 10 times per day I can take +4 on any D20 roll of my choice. That does sound incredible to me.

But you have to do it in advance. So maybe you activate it and you roll well the first time anyway, the "reroll" still gets used up when your next turn rolls around. Or you do use it on your SR-check/attack roll but then you have to make a saving throw. It's definitely good, but not overpowered.



Being the noob I am, I have to ask a few more questions. Is my view correct, that School Savant is not very impressive considering the loss of 3 exploits right at the start, and the advantages that the Wizard has over the Arcanist?

If all you want from a school is the 1st-level ability then this is correct, you can skip School Savant and just go for the School Understanding Exploit instead. But if you want the higher-level abilities, and/or if you want to use Int instead of Cha for those abilities, you will want School Savant. School Savant also gets more spells/day than a normal arcanist.



Then I was looking at Wizard Archetypes, and didn't like most of them. One exception, the Primalist sounds interesting. Doesn't he just synergize beautifully with the Foresight ability? At the beginning of my turn I roll a die that will foretell me whether I can succeed at a concentration check, and if so, what spell level I can master. So unless I am really desperate, the primal magic will never blow in my face. And correct me if I'm wrong, the loss of Arcane Bond can be overcome by taking the Familar feat. Still I end up trading 3 feats for a few additional spells (and a few uses of Foretelling per day). I have to admit that I don't understand Enhance Primal Event. Primal Surge only seems to protect me from unwanted events that Foretelling will prevent anyway. I wonder if that Archetype is any good, or if I should stick with vanilla Wizard.

Yes, this combo is solid. Primal Magic is only a handful of times/day, so knowing if you'll succeed before you try is fine. And if you're blowing Foresight on that, you're not using it for saving throws, attack rolls or anything else that round.


I also wonder: Are there any good/fun prestige Classes for Wizards in PF? In 3.5 I loved Arcane Order and Archmage, Master Specialist was also nice, but looking through the PF prestige classes I can't really find anything that inspires me.

That I can't help with as I don't know what inspires you :smalltongue: Personally I like the Harrower, Collegiate Arcanist, Souleater and False Priest, but you just have to look through them (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/harrower) and see if there's something you like.

[Spore]

Summoned monsters are supposed to be weaker than melee characters. The idea is that you can throw out a quick (and more importantly, disposable) body that can get between you and the baddies, more of a speed bump than a true tank. You can optimize them to be better, but the idea is that the game is subtly encouraging you to cast haste on that fighter rather than summon that boar and send it into melee yourself.

I've started to play D&D in equivalent terms of TCGs rather than in terms like DpR, action advantage and what not. As harsh as it sounds, you as the caster are the actual hero and the melee guy is merely a very important victory condition ought to stay alive.

That's why actions like "do I cast Haste OR summon a boar" is a momentary decision with not calculating the enemies' moves, board situation and known enemy threats. The right question should be: "Do I cast Haste and then summon a boar for the boar to get buffed and the fighter to miss out on movement and damage or viceversa to buff the fighter and get the boar in later."

So no, summoning is NOT in vain, even in Pathfinder. Some small tricks (mostly stolen from a Summoner's handbook because they also have standard action summons that last mins/level):
- Cycle summons: What's better than 1d4+1 Lantern Archons getting their incredible ray attacks in? 2d4+2 Lantern Archons getting their ray attacks in. (My summoner did 7d6 worth of DR ignoring damage with two uses of Summon Monster while moving to the Fighter and buffing him with Fly would've done nothing in the turn.)
- Use your chassis class to "presummon" and buff up your summons. Or use stuff like the Azata Lillend to buff via Bardic Performance or make a bunch of Lantern Archons spam Aid on the melee guys. Your summons can support too. You're not a druid with the brutish SNA spells.
- Deter fire, threaten valuable units via summons. Summoning on LoS is actually very poweful since you don't have to spend an action to let the summons move there.

So in sum: Summoning blows up the action economy, reduces damage taken by your actual heroes and is imho a bit more scenic than blowing minions up with that 10d6 fireball. Again.

[Rumo]

Okay, I get your point regarding the summons. As I said above, I was too much looking at things from my Druid's perspective. And a Wizard isn't a Druid.

I've been looking through the prestige classes, and feel somewhat disappointed because there seems to be nothing that would give me the feeling of: Yummy, that prestige class level is something to look forward to. And there were just so many in 3.5 that had this effect on me. The tattoo guy might be fun, maybe he isn't very good, but the idea of having my hummingbird stepping in and out of my skin is something I like. But most of the tattos don't seem very exciting to me. And the Harrower - I don't understand how that drawing of cards works, maybe it's the language barrier but I read and reread the page and just didn't get it. Can someone explain that to me?

[The Vagabond]

Okay, I get your point regarding the summons. As I said above, I was too much looking at things from my Druid's perspective. And a Wizard isn't a Druid.

I've been looking through the prestige classes, and feel somewhat disappointed because there seems to be nothing that would give me the feeling of: Yummy, that prestige class level is something to look forward to. And there were just so many in 3.5 that had this effect on me. The tattoo guy might be fun, maybe he isn't very good, but the idea of having my hummingbird stepping in and out of my skin is something I like. But most of the tattos don't seem very exciting to me. And the Harrower - I don't understand how that drawing of cards works, maybe it's the language barrier but I read and reread the page and just didn't get it. Can someone explain that to me?
Yeah- Pathfinder isn't one for Prestiege Classes. There's only a handful that are really worth it, to my knowledge- However, since it's compatable with 3.5 materials, you may easily request third edition prestiege classes. As it is, generally, the base classes provide a LOT more in the later levels, that it's generally easier to just go with the base class all the way.

[Rumo]

Yeah- Pathfinder isn't one for Prestiege Classes. There's only a handful that are really worth it, to my knowledge- However, since it's compatable with 3.5 materials, you may easily request third edition prestiege classes. As it is, generally, the base classes provide a LOT more in the later levels, that it's generally easier to just go with the base class all the way.

It seems to me that Loremaster comes rather close to the kind of prestige class that I was looking for. Every second level a nice little useful secret, also Lore is nothing to spit on. So divination Wizard 7, then Loremaster, only leaves open the question: which 3 metamagic skills to choose? I have no experience with metamagic. My intention is to focus on battlefield control.

[Rumo]

And yet another question, is it possible to retrain Magical Lineage in order to change it towards a higher level spell?
Or maybe I should just stick with toppling Magic Missile? Multiple missiles hitting and toppling multiple targets - that should be much better than Grease.

Edit: Now that looks like a neat combo. My level 6 Shadowcaster with Magical Lineage Magic Missile and Toppling Spell can topple 3 enemies per round, 9 times per day, and influence the trip attacks with his Foresight. And that's just his level 1 spells! :smallsmile:

[Eldaran]

You can not by default retrain a trait, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow it, maybe the same as a feat. Note that you can pick a spell of any level with Magical Lineage, so you could say pick Enervation at level 1, but not use it until level 7.

[Rumo]

Thank you for the explanation, but it seems to me that Toppling Magic Missile is a pretty strong combo. My ray spells will hit anyway because I only cast them when Foresight is successful.
On another note, the DM says that after losing Arcane Bond it's not possible to take the Familiar feat. Is that correct?

[Elricaltovilla]

My experience with summoning spells has been that they're generally at their most useful when they take up lots of space. Summoning multiple creatures at once usually helps more than summoning one creature, because their ability to block off or control areas is more valuable than the damage they do. They either reduce or remove the enemy's numeric advantage, or they massively increase your own numeric advantage.

Summons are best used as a distraction in my opinion, and so summoning more distractions at once is better than summoning one big distraction. This is doubly so in cases where you can place the summons strategically to block off areas like doorways, bridges or the area between the enemies and the squishy casters.

[Gnaeus]

My experience with summoning spells has been that they're generally at their most useful when they take up lots of space. Summoning multiple creatures at once usually helps more than summoning one creature, because their ability to block off or control areas is more valuable than the damage they do. They either reduce or remove the enemy's numeric advantage, or they massively increase your own numeric advantage.

Disagree.

At 9th or 10th level, (wizard or sorcerer), I can summon Bralani Azatas. As a character focused on summons, I have Augment Summoning and summon good monster. So for a 5th level slot I get:
A meat shield with 80 HP, DR 10 cold iron/evil, Spell Resistance, energy resistance, and Blind Fighting & Diehard. Better saves than most PCs.
It has blur at will. So it can buff me, or the fighter, or itself.
It also has mirror image at will. When mirror image and blur are both up, it is a significantly better tank than the fighter.
Cure Serious Wounds 2x/day. Thats 6d8+12 healing. By comparison, the cleric can spend a 4th level slot for 4d8+10.
Lightning Bolt 2x/day. Thats 12d6 of blasting damage. Admittedly, it takes 2 rounds and has a terrible save. But it is least comparable to casting flamestrike or fireball for 10d6.
Wind Wall at will. Situational, but very nice if fighting enemy archers. Especially since you can follow it up by blasting them with lightning.
Utility? Darkvision. Low Light Vision. Stealth +14. Perception +15. Truespeach. Fly speed 100 (perfect). Charm Person and Gust of Wind at will. I haven't used those spells yet.

Thats a ton of stuff for 1 5th level slot.
BUT if I don't need that, the same spell can summon:
A Vulpinal Agathion. Weaker in combat, but 18d6 in healing per day, can cast dispel evil, and has a couple of knowledges at +21.
A Djinni. Good for making money/friends by summoning 18 gallons of wine per Djinn, or for overland travel by casting Wind Walk on the party.
1d3 pixies, good for spamming permanent illusions (a 6th level spell for you) or dispel magics, and some other stuff.
Or I guess a celestial orca for water issues.

What 5th level slot can do more than that?