Gish Build. Any Suggestions?

[Spectre9000]

So I've come up with a Gish build that I think I like quite a bit, and I'd like you all to tear it apart and tell me why I'm an idiot for liking it. :smalltongue:

ECL: Effective Character Level

Dwarf Dragonborn (Wings)
ECL 1
Fighter
ECL 2-5
Wizard (Domain: Transmutation)
ECL 6
Runesmith
ECL 7-9
Swiftblade
ECL 10-14
Abjurant Champion
ECL 15-16
Wizard
ECL 17
Runesmith
ECL 18-20
Swiftblade


Feats:
ECL 1:
Dodge
Fighter 1:
Mobility
ECL 3:
Combat Casting
ECL 6:
Power Attack
ECL 9:
Metamagic: Extend
ECL 12:
Metamagic: Persist
ECL 15:
Spell Focus(Transmutation)
Wizard 5:
Easy Metamagic (Persist)
ECL 18:
Metamagic School Focus(Transmutation)



Shorthand Character Progression: Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 1/Swiftblade 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Wizard 2/Runesmith 1/Swiftblade 3



I will be using a Greatsword(Abyssal Bloodiron for flavor), fyi.

[Extra Anchovies]

So you're going for a buff-based gish rather than a channel-based gish (e.g. Duskblade)?

Most of it looks good. Two things:
1. Why dodge/mobility? Those feats aren't exactly good. Improved Initiative and Improved Toughness would be better.
2. There's an issue with Practical Metamagic:

When applying the chosen metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell, the spell uses a spell slot one level lower than normal for the applied metamagic feat
Using Spontaneous Divination for entry means you'll only be able to get that extra reduction on your Divination spells, most of which you won't have any reason to Persist. I'd recommend instead Arcane Thesis for one or two of your favorite buff spells (Arcane Thesis'd Extended Persistent Haste, with Easy Metamagic (Persist), is a seventh level spell, for example).

[Spectre9000]

So you're going for a buff-based gish rather than a channel-based gish (e.g. Duskblade)?

Most of it looks good. Two things:
1. Why dodge/mobility? Those feats aren't exactly good. Improved Initiative and Improved Toughness would be better.
2. There's an issue with Practical Metamagic:

Using Spontaneous Divination for entry means you'll only be able to get that extra reduction on your Divination spells, most of which you won't have any reason to Persist. I'd recommend instead Arcane Thesis for one or two of your favorite buff spells (Arcane Thesis'd Extended Persistent Haste, with Easy Metamagic (Persist), is a seventh level spell, for example).

1. To qualify for Swiftblade. Those two feats are required for it.
2. Yea... misread that part... I'll look at revamping those two feats.

[Extra Anchovies]

1. To qualify for Swiftblade. Those two feats are required for it.
Oh, yeah, derp.

[Spectre9000]

I think Spell Focus(Transmutation) and Metamagic School Focus(Transmutation) would be more beneficial than two Arcane Thesis feats, since I'll be persisting Wraithstrike and Haste (both Transmutation) at the very least.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Get rid of Runesmith, it's only going to hold you back. The only real benefit of using it is to be able to cast while wearing armor and using a shield, and your Abjurant Champion levels automatically make casting (Greater) Luminous Armor and Shield better than any physical armor you'll get.

2. This Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) from UA gets Fighter bonus feats instead of Scribe Scroll and the Wizard 5 bonus feat. This allows you to get Dodge/Mobility without spending any of your general feats.

3. You have too many Wizard levels, you would be better off with Paragnostic Apostle 2 for Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness instead of those last two Wizard levels. Never take Wizard levels late in a build unless it's to get the 5th level for an irreplaceable ACF that's absolutely necessary and/or better than any prestige class options available at that level.

4. Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is a nine-or-nothing class. Anything less than nine levels of it in a build is an absolute waste of time. The build to use with that is Fighter Feat Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5, or maybe get one fewer Abjurant Champion level and put a single level of Spelldancer in there as early as possible to persist all your buffs.

5. There are plenty of far more efficient and just plain better builds you could use that are going to outperform this one at any given character level. This build looks like you're trying to do too much, and it's lacking synergy.

[Hiro Quester]

4. Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is a nine-or-nothing class. Anything less than nine levels of it in a build is an absolute waste of time. The build to use with that is Fighter Feat Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5, or maybe get one fewer Abjurant Champion level and put a single level of Spelldancer in there as early as possible to persist all your buffs.


Why 9 or nothing? Many people take 3 or 6 levels (to avoid the lost caster level at 4 and 7). And taking to 10 can be worth the lost caster level at 10, if you would have chosen Time stop as a 9th level spell anyway.

Taking three levels and then moving on is often very worth it. so is taking 6 levels in some builds. Full BAB, two good saves, and some very useful class abilities (50% miss chances against melee attacks at 5th level, and 30% miss chance against targeted spells). I'd stay in.

I might even replace some of those runesmith and wizard levels with more swift blade. It's a fun class, for roleplaying as a speed-freak, as well as for the abilities. In for a penny, in for a pound. Biff is right that the extra standard actions at 9th level are a fantastic class ability. I'd take that if it doesn't hurt your casting too much.

The 10th level time stop ability is fantastic though. It's worth serious consideration. (The main advantage over learning the spell, is that you can get this at 16th level, and can control the length of the time stop effect. Not having a random DM's die roll determine the length is very useful. Plus you get to use lower-rank spells to create the effect, so you can use it more often. That combined with the extra standard action from the 9th level ability busts action economy wide, wide open.

The wizard ACF that gets higher bonus feats is important , though. Scribe scroll isn't a huge loss. And then in addition to the Swiftblade prerequisites, you can grab some other useful fighter feats, too, as well as more casting-focussed feats for your regular spell slots. (Quicken spell works well thematically with a swift blade.)

[Extra Anchovies]

Why 9 or nothing? Many people take 3 or 6 levels (to avoid the lost caster level at 4 and 7). And taking to 10 can be worth the lost caster level at 10, if you would have chosen Time stop as a 9th level spell anyway.

Biffo probably sees it as nine-or-nothing because of how dang powerful access to 3.0 haste is. Two spells per turn, yes pls.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Swiftblade for less than nine levels is only worth having if you need Dodge and Mobility for something else, anything else, in the build. Maybe if you were including Arcane Duelist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) for 2-4 levels in some X-stat-to-Y-bonus build, Swiftblade would be decent for filler since you'd already have the prerequisites. For a true gish though, the loss of caster levels combined with two otherwise wasted feats is not worth the benefits of taking the class unless you get its 9th level ability.

[Spectre9000]

1. Get rid of Runesmith, it's only going to hold you back. The only real benefit of using it is to be able to cast while wearing armor and using a shield, and your Abjurant Champion levels automatically make casting (Greater) Luminous Armor and Shield better than any physical armor you'll get.

I don't understand why people act like you can't have both? Luminous Armor is a shimmering aura of light. It's not a piece of armor, it doesn't take up the space of armor, it merely looks like armor, and its bonuses are likened to what armor would give. Besides I like the idea of wearing armor as a Gish, and no somatic components can have more benefits in various random situations where it's not feasible to use your hands.



2. This Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) from UA gets Fighter bonus feats instead of Scribe Scroll and the Wizard 5 bonus feat. This allows you to get Dodge/Mobility without spending any of your general feats.

I value Scribe Scroll for two reasons. It's a way to make some money, and primarily it's a back up plan for when all my persisted spells are suddenly dispelled by say... running through an anti-magic field. Finally, it also qualifies me for Runesmith.



3. You have too many Wizard levels, you would be better off with Paragnostic Apostle 2 for Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness instead of those last two Wizard levels. Never take Wizard levels late in a build unless it's to get the 5th level for an irreplaceable ACF that's absolutely necessary and/or better than any prestige class options available at that level.

I take the two extra levels of Wizard for the level 5 Feat, the 1 BAB, and 2 Caster levels. 2 AC is not equivalent to the feat. I suppose for that 6th level of wizard I could go Spellsword, since I have all martial weapon proficiencies, which would give me better fort and will saves at the expense of Ref save. Otherwise it's a zero sum swap.



4. Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is a nine-or-nothing class. Anything less than nine levels of it in a build is an absolute waste of time. The build to use with that is Fighter Feat Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5, or maybe get one fewer Abjurant Champion level and put a single level of Spelldancer in there as early as possible to persist all your buffs.

Yes, I won't be getting that awesome 9th level ability, but I want 9th level spells. Also, I won't be casting a whole lot in combat due to two reasons: I won't have enough spell slots to keep making use of it, and I imagine I'll be making full-round attacks most of the time. Yes, I could get one extra attack per turn from it at full BAB (use the standard action for attacking), which would be nice I admit, but not worth the loss of 9th level spells.



5. There are plenty of far more efficient and just plain better builds you could use that are going to outperform this one at any given character level. This build looks like you're trying to do too much, and it's lacking synergy.

By all means, show examples. I'd love to see your typical Gish builds. Perhaps I'll see something that does exactly what I want without all the fat. I'm always open to new ideas (well new to me). Also, where would you get your Greatsword proficiency from in your Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5 build?

[Extra Anchovies]

I don't understand why people act like you can't have both? Luminous Armor is a shimmering aura of light. It's not a piece of armor, it doesn't take up the space of armor, it merely looks like armor, and its bonuses are likened to what armor would give. Besides I like the idea of wearing armor as a Gish, and no somatic components can have more benefits in various random situations where it's not feasible to use your hands.

There's also the fact that Luminous Armor doesn't grant armor abilities, and those can be really powerful (proof against transmutation + soulfire is my favorite combination).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't understand why people act like you can't have both? Luminous Armor is a shimmering aura of light. It's not a piece of armor, it doesn't take up the space of armor, it merely looks like armor, and its bonuses are likened to what armor would give. Besides I like the idea of wearing armor as a Gish, and no somatic components can have more benefits in various random situations where it's not feasible to use your hands.

Both grant an armor bonus to your AC, and bonuses of the same type don't stack. Armor takes up your robe item space, and there are plenty of useful items that you could put in that space instead. Furthermore, you can take Kung-Fu Genius and wear a Monk's Belt to add your Int bonus to your AC if you're not wearing armor. The best armor special property out there is Heavy Fortification, but with Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire you don't need to buy that, plus you could also get a Gemstone of Fortification in the Draconomicon. Furthermore, you could arguably enchant a robe or set of clothing to have a +1 bonus to its armor bonus, and add magic armor properties to that.


I value Scribe Scroll for two reasons. It's a way to make some money, and primarily it's a back up plan for when all my persisted spells are suddenly dispelled by say... running through an anti-magic field. Finally, it also qualifies me for Runesmith.

If you cast your persistent spells just before you rest, you still have them prepared for the whole day and can recast them if you get dispelled. Plus antimagic field doesn't dispel anything, it just suppresses your spells for as long as you're in it, and your spells resume as soon as you leave it.


I take the two extra levels of Wizard for the level 5 Feat, the 1 BAB, and 2 Caster levels. 2 AC is not equivalent to the feat. I suppose for that 6th level of wizard I could go Spellsword, since I have all martial weapon proficiencies, which would give me better fort and will saves at the expense of Ref save. Otherwise it's a zero sum swap.

That Wizard 5 feat you picked is Spell Focus, which is not a valid choice for that. You can only pick metamagic feats, item creation feats, and Spell Mastery for those bonus feats.


Yes, I won't be getting that awesome 9th level ability, but I want 9th level spells. Also, I won't be casting a whole lot in combat due to two reasons: I won't have enough spell slots to keep making use of it, and I imagine I'll be making full-round attacks most of the time. Yes, I could get one extra attack per turn from it at full BAB (use the standard action for attacking), which would be nice I admit, but not worth the loss of 9th level spells.

At that level you're going to have plenty of spell slots remaining that you didn't use to prepare buffs. Just having a few large crowd controls like Black Tentacles and Freezing Fog that you can cast in the same round that you full attack is a huge advantage, plus you can activate wands and other magic items with that standard action.


By all means, show examples. I'd love to see your typical Gish builds. Perhaps I'll see something that does exactly what I want without all the fat. I'm always open to new ideas (well new to me). Also, where would you get your Greatsword proficiency from in your Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5 build?

A Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 4 gets 9th level spells and +16 BAB, and all the persistent spell shenanigans that Incantatrix offers. You can switch the Fighter 2/ Wizard 4 start to Human or Elf Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 2 for more skill points and a few other benefits for the same amount of spellcasting and BAB.

You can get weapon proficiencies from many sources: The Outsider creature type grants proficiency in all martial weapons, you can gain that from a +0 LA Aasimar or Tiefling (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) (for which you never have to spend a level on the rest of the racial abilities (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)) or with the Otherworldly feat if you're any type of Elf or a Deep Imaskari. The Militia regional feat also grants proficiency in all martial weapons. You can just make your character an Elf or some other race that gets some martial weapon proficiencies automatically to qualify for Abjurant Champion, and just use a simple weapon. The difference between a greatsword and using a longsword in two hands is 2.5 average damage per hit, which is not very significant at all.

[Spectre9000]

Biff... you love killing my ideas... and I thank you for it. :smalltongue:



Both grant an armor bonus to your AC, and bonuses of the same type don't stack. Armor takes up your robe item space, and there are plenty of useful items that you could put in that space instead. Furthermore, you can take Kung-Fu Genius and wear a Monk's Belt to add your Int bonus to your AC if you're not wearing armor. The best armor special property out there is Heavy Fortification, but with Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire you don't need to buy that, plus you could also get a Gemstone of Fortification in the Draconomicon. Furthermore, you could arguably enchant a robe or set of clothing to have a +1 bonus to its armor bonus, and add magic armor properties to that.
Valid Points.



If you cast your persistent spells just before you rest, you still have them prepared for the whole day and can recast them if you get dispelled.
Still allows for only 1 dispel per day.



That Wizard 5 feat you picked is Spell Focus, which is not a valid choice for that. You can only pick metamagic feats, item creation feats, and Spell Mastery for those bonus feats.
I'll swap it with Easy Metamagic.



At that level you're going to have plenty of spell slots remaining that you didn't use to prepare buffs. Just having a few large crowd controls like Black Tentacles and Freezing Fog that you can cast in the same round that you full attack is a huge advantage, plus you can activate wands and other magic items with that standard action.
It does have a good bit of utility and is a very nice ability, but I don't think it justifies losing 9th level spells.



A Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 4 gets 9th level spells and +16 BAB, and all the persistent spell shenanigans that Incantatrix offers. You can switch the Fighter 2/ Wizard 4 start to Human or Elf Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 2 for more skill points and a few other benefits for the same amount of spellcasting and BAB.

You can get weapon proficiencies from many sources: The Outsider creature type grants proficiency in all martial weapons, you can gain that from a +0 LA Aasimar or Tiefling (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) (for which you never have to spend a level on the rest of the racial abilities (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)) or with the Otherworldly feat if you're any type of Elf or a Deep Imaskari. The Militia regional feat also grants proficiency in all martial weapons. You can just make your character an Elf or some other race that gets some martial weapon proficiencies automatically to qualify for Abjurant Champion, and just use a simple weapon. The difference between a greatsword and using a longsword in two hands is 2.5 average damage per hit, which is not very significant at all.

For the races, I'd really like to have wings, which is one reason I went with Dragonborn. (The constitution bonus doesn't hurt either)

Any alternative that doesn't use the Incantatrix? I like cheese on my pizza, but that's overkill (plus it makes DM's unhappy). Also, I don't want to lose a school of magic (though I probably could, I just want to keep all options available).

[DarkSonic1337]

Taking 9 levels of swiftblade does not lock you out of 9ths. You lose 3 caster levels, and as was said earlier you don't necessarily have to take a fighter level to gain martial weapon proficiency.

As for an alternative to incantatrix, spelldancer plays nicely with swiftblade/abjurant champion builds. Spelldancer's prereqs are dodge, mobility, combat casting, and..endurance. A swiftblade/abjurant champion already has to get 3 of those feats.

Your reward for all that is the ability to (at the first level of spelldancer) use perform dance checks and a couple rounds of dancing to apply metamagic to things. So enjoy your free extended, persistent spells. Something I personally do is apply echoing spell to things like Mage's Lucubration or Mnemonic Enhancer to pump up my spells available (multiple castings of Shadow Conjuration:Create Magic Tattoo is pretty awesome as well).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonborn on anything with the Outsider type still results in something with the Outsider type, as it states that your creature type is unchanged, so the +0 LA Aasimar or Tiefling can still use that. You can put Dragonborn on a Snow Elf in Frostburn (+2 Dex, -2 Cha), resulting in a Humanoid (Elf, Dragonblood) that can take Otherworldly to become an Outsider (Native, Elf, Dragonblood) and gain proficiency in all martial weapons. Besides, Swift Fly is a 2nd level spell that can be made Persistent, and Overland Flight lasts an hour/level normally.

Spelldancer 1 from Magic of Faerun can persist spells, but it has the potential to persist an unlimited number of spells each day, whereas Incantatrix actually has a daily limit. An Illumian with the Naenhoon runeword and a level of Sacred Exorcist can persist two spells per day, which is far less cheesy.

A Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought (Desert) Kobold Loredrake can go Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade 9/ Spelldancer 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Paragnostic Apostle 1 and get a +17 BAB and 20th level Wizard spellcasting with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and you can even get wings with a feat.