[3.5] building a good necromancer

[Moro]

hi all! long-time lurker here, coming with lots of doubts & questions, hoping for some suggestions or just enjoyable brainstorming about his necromancer build. :smallbiggrin:

i play(ed) a necromancer in my group's main 3.5 campaign which we are now thinking to resume. i first tried a wizard/pale master because the class had flavour, we had no arcane dps, and animate dead for free looked pretty neat. but as i advanced the prc i noticed that lacking the divine side of necromancy revealed itself to be somewhat hindering. i then rebuilt my character a little, but shortly thereafter we stopped playing (around level 12, where we should restart).

anyways.

the thing that looks a bit frustrating to me is that of all things in d&d, necromancy seems the only casting path you have to try to optimize in any way possible to actually make it enjoyable and moderatlely effective. so i'm trying to take the best out of it in a way that wouldn't also heavily limit the usefulness of my caster as a potential dps/debuffer (shouldn't i have access to undead at any given moment) by finding all best possible options in the 3.5 system.

my main aim is to get access by mid-levels to a good combination of undead-related creation & buff spells and feats to constantly have 2-3 highly efficient melee elite undeads (able to sustain decent amounts of damage while also managing to deal some, offering flanking benefits to allies, and the like), while taking advantage of the large pool of spells to blast some monsters myself in combat.

we can use any legal 3.5 or non-officialy updated 3.0 material, only restrictions being that race has to be standard human for background reasons and we never used leadership because it looks problematic. we also never discussed flaws, so i don't consider that an option at the moment.
my idea so far is to start from an early entry wiz 3/clr 1/mystic theurge x through alternate source spell, with the enhanced undead necromancer alternative class feature (lose bonus specialist spells to gain an improved version of the corpsecrafter feat). must-have feats are fell energy spell (+2 to any numerical bonus granted by a spell when it's used on an undead) and theurgic specialist (all your caster levels stack when determining your specialization school's spells cl). necromantic presence and necromantic might would also be nice choices i guess, but it's a 2-feat chain.

main issues of the build i'd like to solve:

a) necromancy is - in my opinion - unreasonably costly, and i find that annoying. animate dead, create undead, awaken undead and revive undead (which would be my core spells) all have medium/high material or xp costs, making them hard to cast on a regular basis, especially with our group's budget and level policies (we prefer to have characters remain on the same wealth and power level). searching for legal ways to get rid of these costs, until now i found:
- imbue staff option: lose familiar to gain access to staff-related feats, one of which makes you cast one spell you know once per day as a spell-like ability. you can take it multiple times, each time for a different spell. simple, but would cost me quite a few precious feat slots.
- dweomerkeeper option: at 4th level he can cast any spell he knows once per day as a supernatural ability. very versatile but it would slow down my spell progression terribly, since dweomerkeeper doesn't grant dual casting.
i hope there's some other mechanic similar to these two hidden somewhere because both seem to have some flaws.

b) i don't know where to go after mystic theurge, which could mean after level 14. arcane hierophant needs woodland stride (by errata) which is apparently unobtainable through means other than druid 2, and green whisperer seems to have druid/bard specific spell progression. true necromancer is just bad and has awful prerequisites. should i just give up on dual casting after the theurge?

c) create undead has a largely unsatisfying list of creatures you can create. even searching through every official book i couldn't find some really good undead to create, especially ones that wouldn't be useless at higher levels. while skeletons and bloodhulks mostly make up for this since i can make better ones as monsters we encounter grow stronger, they lack versatility (except if awakened maybe). does dragon material provide some other interesting undead creature?

d) my rebuking is going to ultimately suck, which is not that much of a problem. i'm aware you have to sacrifice something when playing such a character. moreover, basing a build on the chance of encountering nice undead creatures to dominate looks a bit too situational for me. i guess i'll have to boost rebuking through equipment, since it's the only direct mean i know to control undead creatures created with the create undead spell. are there other ways to have total control over intelligent undead? would it theoretically be feasible to order an intelligent undead controlled by the control undead spell to not resist my rebuking attempt?

so that's the situation at the moment, any advice would be greatly appreciated. :smallsmile:

[Extra Anchovies]

Have a Necromancer Handbook. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1049211)

Also, quick necromancer build: Cleric 20. Start with the Deathbound domain (Spell Compendium) for extra undead capacity, and use the Divine Magician ACF (Complete Mage) to pick up any other arcane spells that you need. Remember, having Command Undead on your list via a domain means you can craft and use wands of it. Grab a bunch of corpse-creation feats. Arcane necromancers are a lot tougher for not much benefit, because they don't have any class-exclusive, necessary spells thanks to Arcane Disciple, they are lacking a few of the important or helpful spells, and they have a worse chassis.

If you're starting at 8th level or above, though: play a Dread Necro. Their undead are the best undead.

[danzibr]

Hmm, what can I contribute...?

Although Clerics do the job better (as Extra Anchovies pointed out), I'm very fond of the Wizard ACF which replaces your familiar with an undead which scales with your level.

Also, if you plan on having many undead, look into Mob. Otherwise your turns will take forever.

[Moro]

thanks for the quick feedback guys. :smallsmile:

i already knew the necromancer handbook (deathbound and necromancy are my domain choices), but i'd rather not go pure cleric (also because we already have one) for the reasons i explained in the op. i never considered the divine magician and i'll keep it as a "plan b" solution. so thanks again. :D

[Evan Epis]

The theurge option of yours seems like a good idea if you want to spellstitch your servants at some point, since, IIRC, the template requires you to be a wizard or sorcerer with a high wisdom score. Might be mistaken though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Consider switching to the Dread Necromancer base class in Heroes of Horror, and take Arcane Disciple or use Eclectic Learning to get Desecrate. Make your character a Human Necropolitan from Libris Mortis, and get Spellstitched in CA to gain Animate Dead as a spell-like ability so it never requires a material component again. You can use your at-will negative energy touch to heal your minions to full hp between encounters. Use the Summon Undead line of spells for multiple ogre zombies for expendable meat shield minions.

Get the Ghostly Visage familiar, always have it possessing you, and have it manifest over your face to use its paralyzing gaze during combat. It can even spend a standard action every round to focus the gaze on a target to force them to save vs paralysis, even if they're not looking or already made the save that round.

Pick up Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon, which can give you early access to the next higher level of spells on your class spell list (which may require Heighten Spell or similar, depending on how your DM rules it). You could also get Magical Training in PGtF for a spellbook, which you can add more Wizard spells to per the Rules Compendium. Spells in your spellbook count as spells known, so you can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast those using DN spell slots.

For undead minions, I'm a big fan of Cave Troll Skeletons with Awaken Undead so they regain their special attacks, Fast Healing, etc.

[Segev]

This definitely edges into "talk to your DM" territory, but there is an old, old idea that sorcerers might, possibly, be able to learn spells that are not explicitly on their class list, nor even necessarily arcane. That is, if they're thematic enough to what you're doing, you might be able to get special permission for a sorcerer to gain cleric spells as known spells.

So if you play a Wizard(Necromancer)/Sorcerer and go Ultimate Magus, you might be able to pick up the various cleric necromancy spells you're looking for on your Sorc side.



More definitely rules-legal, though, is the Dread Necromancer out of Heroes of Horror. It's a base 20-level class with full 9th-level-spell casting that knows every spell on its class list. It's not the best list in the game, but it covers all the essential necromancy ones for a minionmancer. Still, frustratingly, has to wait for 4th level spells (which it doesn't get until level 8) to cast Animate Dead, and doesn't obviate the material component costs. Also of note, at 8th level, they add their Cha to their level for determining the cap on HD of undead they can control with Animate Dead, and they get from level 1 the ability to rebuke/command undead like an evil cleric.

Give them Tomb-Tainted Soul from Libris Mortis, and they can self-heal with an at-will touch power of theirs. You'll want to read Libris Mortis for its various feats and effects to bolster your undead, as well. Corpsecrafter and a few of its descendants, in particular, are delicious.


You can combat the material component costs a little by picking up one or more item creation feats; creating stuff at half-cost and selling it for full can make money, and creating it at half-cost for your own use also saves money.

[Moro]

The theurge option of yours seems like a good idea if you want to spellstitch your servants at some point, since, IIRC, the template requires you to be a wizard or sorcerer with a high wisdom score. Might be mistaken though.

i might do that but spellstitching costs an important amount of gold if i recall correctly and i'd like to find a cheaper and more permanent way to overcome the spell costs (if my spellstitched minion were to die i still would have to cast revive undead at 5000 gp by the way). that's my main concern at the moment.

what i'm trying to do is to combine a decent aoe capability (so i'll maybe have the chance to go lord of the uttercold at higher levels) while obtaining all the spells to create and buff undead consistently. dread necromancer is not an option frankly, i can get its best ability as a first level wizard with an acf and the class looks really not that impressive (the spell list is quite bad) other than for flavour.

[Flickerdart]

Consider vampirism - animating something as a vampire is free when you are a vampire (or own a vampire), and there's no limit on the HD of an individual vampire under a vampire's control so long as the total number of vampires under that vampire's control is less than double his HD. So rebuke a 10th level vampire, get him to convert a 20th level vampire, get him to convert a 40th level vampire and so on.

Wights and shadows (and other spawning undead) are also useful for this but much less so since they are not templates but full-on creatures.

[Segev]

I personally think its best ability is at level 8, but that's fine.

In that case, use the Unearthed Arcana necromancer ACFs that give you rebuke/command undead and a skeleton warrior bond-creature.

Do NOT give up the extra spell per spell level; the perk for that is lame enough that I only remember it was lame.

Get Craft Wondrous Item, and make yourself an item of daily-charged Command Undead that can only be used by a wizard (30% cost reduction). This will help considerably with your ability to control undead, as at minimum crafting cost it will be CL 3 and thus last 3 days. If you really want to splurge, make it command activated with no limit; you can command as many undead as you can manage to spend time using it on.

Do something similar for Animate Dead. You may want this one at only 1/day to minimize costs, as 4x7x1800 + 7x25x50 gp is a lot. You want 7x25 because you want to maximize the HD of undead you can animate with it.

[Moro]

whoa, thanks for the responses so far.

i honestly - but i could be missing something obvious - don't get all the hype around the dread necromancer (except for rebuking, which is something i don't priorize in my build). as i read it, its best ability (+4 str/dex and +2 hp for undead) is mimickable by a first-level specialist with an alternative class feature and his other abilities are really not that impressive (25% light fortification by 10th level when you can have all 4 "hearts" spells active simultaneously and have 100%). the spell list made me cringe a bit.

i'd avoid necropolitan (+ spellstitching) if possible. aside from having to convince the group to accept me becoming undead, it would mean higher death risk and impossibility to benefit from in-game healing by allies - the awesome close wounds included - and not qualifying for true resurrection (revive undead makes you lose a level). also, worse equipment because of the high spellstitching costs.

vampires seem good but situational (moreover, i'd need to hope we'll ever encounter one), i would have to think of a method to make them resistant to daylight. any spells for this purpose?

creating magic items with a 1/day use of the spell is something i had thought of, but didn't know about the 30% gold price cut if you make it single-class, good call. i'm going to see how much it would cost me but i don't think it'll be cheap for all the spells i need or at least the most important ones.


For undead minions, I'm a big fan of Cave Troll Skeletons with Awaken Undead so they regain their special attacks, Fast Healing, etc.
yup, that's exactly what i'm going for. but preferably not for 250 xp and a few thousands worth of gold each time. :D

[Segev]

whoa, thanks for the responses so far.

i honestly - but i could be missing something obvious - don't get all the hype around the dread necromancer (except for rebuking, which is something i don't priorize in my build). as i read it, its best ability (+4 str/dex and +2 hp for undead) is mimickable by a first-level specialist with an alternative class feature and his other abilities are really not that impressive (25% light fortification by 10th level when you can have all 4 "hearts" spells active simultaneously and have 100%). the spell list made me cringe a bit.Nah, the big deals are the touch attack that can be used to heal your minions, heal you (with the Tomb Tainted Soul feat), and heal your familiar (when you get one). The Vissage familiar option is pretty nice, too. I generally think the bonus str is a meh thing, because you probably want Corpsecrafter anyway (for +4 dex as well as str) and you want to be able to take Corpsecrafter's descendants. At level 8, they get more HD of undead they can control, which is the biggest perk, to me. I'd probably PrC out after level 8.

Come to think of it, Ultimate Magus wizard/DN might be interesting.


creating magic items with a 1/day use of the spell is something i had thought of, but didn't know about the 30% gold price cut if you make it single-class, good call. i'm going to see how much it would cost me but i don't think it'll be cheap for all the spells i need or at least the most important ones.Depends on the spells, obviously. 1/day does mean it's dividing the final cost by 5, at least.



yup, that's exactly what i'm going for. but preferably not for 250 xp and a few thousands worth of gold each time. :DI'm not sure where you're getting those gp values. Awaken Undead isn't a few thousand gp, and you only need 25 gp/HD of the skeleton for Animate Dead.

[Moro]

Nah, the big deals are the touch attack that can be used to heal your minions, heal you (with the Tomb Tainted Soul feat), and heal your familiar (when you get one). The Vissage familiar option is pretty nice, too. I generally think the bonus str is a meh thing, because you probably want Corpsecrafter anyway (for +4 dex as well as str) and you want to be able to take Corpsecrafter's descendants. At level 8, they get more HD of undead they can control, which is the biggest perk, to me. I'd probably PrC out after level 8.

Come to think of it, Ultimate Magus wizard/DN might be interesting.

Depends on the spells, obviously. 1/day does mean it's dividing the final cost by 5, at least.

I'm not sure where you're getting those gp values. Awaken Undead isn't a few thousand gp, and you only need 25 gp/HD of the skeleton for Animate Dead.

as for the touch, nothing that useful. going cleric i could cast spontaneous inflict spells (+ other various spells dealing negative energy damage on the cleric and wizard list if i go theurge), which would be about the same i guess. or i could just create a single necrosis carnex to make him do the same job. tomb-tainted would be kind of a waste, since the group's cleric is good at his healing duty.

as for the corpsecrafter thing, i think you are mistaken.
- the feat gives +4 str enhancement and +2 hp/hd (no dex bonus)
- the dread necro lv 8 ability gives +4 str/dex enhancement + 2 hp/hd (thus not stacking with -corpsecrafter, hp aside)
- the wizard first level acf does the same thing as the dread necro ability, but at first level! worth dropping the specialist bonus spell, in my opinion.

as for the items, i can't find the rules for item price for 1/week activation (not worth for animate dead though), but i'm pretty sure you can do that and it would be affordable at that point.

the values are based on a casting of an animate dead spell on 2-3 corpses of powerful monsters. it's not that difficult to reach the thousands if you animate a couple of 15 hd corpses or more. i was referring to awaken undead only regarding the xp cost.

[Segev]

I'm not familiar with the wizard ACF.

You could be right; I might have Corpsecrafter and the DN's class ability backwards. Don't knock the extra hp, though; they can make your undead that much tankier.

Assigning an undead to healing duty works; your cleric and even you with spells are, however, operating on limited resources compared to the DN's touch attack, which is at-will.

Even a 20-HD skeleton or zombie is only 500 gp worth of black onyx as a material component.

[Tvtyrant]

The best undead are going to be from Animate Dread Warrior, which allows them to keep their class features. For the Undead Horde I think Undead Leadership with Extra Followers is better as it refills automatically and doesn't take up down time to make.

[Segev]

I can never remember. Is there a rule that states clearly thta you cannot have both LEadership and Undead Leadership?

[Tvtyrant]

I can never remember. Is there a rule that states clearly thta you cannot have both LEadership and Undead Leadership?

Not that I know of. The feat doesn't have it in either of its sources.

[Moro]

I can never remember. Is there a rule that states clearly thta you cannot have both LEadership and Undead Leadership?
if i'm not mistaken they're basically the same feat, except undead leadership grants a +4 bonus to leadership score to attract undead cohorts and a -4 for living ones.

[Segev]

if i'm not mistaken they're basically the same feat, except undead leadership grants a +4 bonus to leadership score to attract undead cohorts and a -4 for living ones.

They share a lot of the same language, but they have different names and thus are not, per the RAW, "the same feat." Thus, unless something in either of their text says you can't have both, you can take both.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dread Necro has Disguise as a class skill, you can be a Necropolitan and tell them you took tomb-tainted soul and can't be healed by positive energy any more. Say you were made one by a Wizard (Enhance Undead) 1/ Dread Necromancer 8+ with the Corpsecrafter line of feats in the area of a Fell Energy Desecrate (+3 hp) with an evil altar present (doubles to +6). That gives you 1d12+12 hp per level, the +4 to Str and Dex, +2 natural armor, +4 initiative, +10 ft. land speed, an extra +2 turn resistance, etc. on top of all the Necropolitan benefits.

Your undead minions created in a Fell Energy Desecrate with an evil altar present would have 1d12+8 hp per HD, plus the Awakened Cave Troll Skeletons get Fast Healing. You can use crowd controls like Black Tentacles and your Ghostly Visage Gaze to prevent opponents from attacking them, and use Summon Undead to put some free meat shield minions in the way. If you use the Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster trick you can even buff them with (Lesser Rod of Extended) (Greater) Mage Armor and (Extended) Greater/Superior Resistance every (other) day, and have Mass Resist Energy to cast just in case.

[danzibr]

Dread Necro has Disguise as a class skill, you can be a Necropolitan and tell them you took tomb-tainted soul and can't be healed by positive energy any more. Say you were made one by a Wizard (Enhance Undead) 1/ Dread Necromancer 8+ with the Corpsecrafter line of feats in the area of a Fell Energy Desecrate (+3 hp) with an evil altar present (doubles to +6). That gives you 1d12+12 hp per level, the +4 to Str and Dex, +2 natural armor, +4 initiative, +10 ft. land speed, an extra +2 turn resistance, etc. on top of all the Necropolitan benefits.

Your undead minions created in a Fell Energy Desecrate with an evil altar present would have 1d12+8 hp per HD, plus the Awakened Cave Troll Skeletons get Fast Healing. You can use crowd controls like Black Tentacles and your Ghostly Visage Gaze to prevent opponents from attacking them, and use Summon Undead to put some free meat shield minions in the way. If you use the Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster trick you can even buff them with (Lesser Rod of Extended) (Greater) Mage Armor and (Extended) Greater/Superior Resistance every (other) day, and have Mass Resist Energy to cast just in case.
While I love this idea, I sort of doubt any DM would allow it.

Still, would be awesome.

[Extra Anchovies]

Dread Necro has Disguise as a class skill, you can be a Necropolitan and tell them you took tomb-tainted soul and can't be healed by positive energy any more. Say you were made one by a Wizard (Enhance Undead) 1/ Dread Necromancer 8+ with the Corpsecrafter line of feats in the area of a Fell Energy Desecrate (+3 hp) with an evil altar present (doubles to +6). That gives you 1d12+12 hp per level, the +4 to Str and Dex, +2 natural armor, +4 initiative, +10 ft. land speed, an extra +2 turn resistance, etc. on top of all the Necropolitan benefits.

Do Necropolitans have specific creators? I thought it was some sort of group ritual.

[Silva Stormrage]

Do Necropolitans have specific creators? I thought it was some sort of group ritual.

Its vague and up to the DM really. I would limit it to the fel energy desecrate for the HP because that one is indisputably RAW.

[Moro]

While I love this idea, I sort of doubt any DM would allow it.

Still, would be awesome.
yeah i'd receive some serious "are you ****ing kidding us" stares - and i'd totally understand that, honestly - if i should ever propose something like that.

anyway, i thought of many possible options (even druid/necro to go arcane hierophant with 1 level of contemplative for access to the deathbound domain spells D:), but i think i'll really take those 4 dweomerkeeper levels. supernatural spell is too good not to be taken: animate/create/revive/awaken undead + animate dread warrior totally for free!
also, it solves the feat slots problem of the imbued staff alternative and leaves me with some neat space for other feats. i'll have to take an useless magic domain for the prerequisites but it could be worth it.

so the build options:
clr 3/necro 1/dwe 4 (div)/mth 4 (div cl 11/arc cl 5)
pros: rebuking effective level 3 (meh)... something else?
cons: very late access to animate dread warrior unless i take some feat like customize domain or the divine magician acf, no theurgic specialist

clr 1/necro 3/dwe 4 (arc)/mth 4 (div cl 5/arc cl 11)
pros: immediate access to all the best arcane and divine necromancy spells, access to theurgic specialist, more arcane dps options
cons: rebuking effective level 1, slightly delayed access to revive undead

the second option seems the best to me, and that would pretty much settle it. i guess i've got no better compromise available to have access to most necromancy spells while overcoming the material/xp costs of those spells altogether. or should i consider something else? i could also go full divine, but only if there were any super cool undead-related (or potentially related) divine prestige classes i missed. are there some?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wights and shadows (and other spawning undead) are also useful for this but much less so since they are not templates but full-on creatures.

Savage Species has both of these as templates. They have a controlled undead cap of HD×2 and have some serious LA cost associated with them