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Scalenex
2007-04-19, 02:25 AM
Given that the PHB has a big pantheon of standard gods and most D&D games have a full pantheon (or several) with several clerics, many that have institutions. Clerics are possibly the most common PC class and they use obvious divine magic, yet D&D gods seem to require faith and believe on some level so it must be theoretically possibly to not believe in them. Assuming clerics are fairly proactive (Good clerics help commoners, Evil clerics terrorize them), everyone would at least knows someone who knows someone whose seen divine magic with their own eyes. In a D&D world, would that be the equivalent of ignoring empirical evidence and saying that the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around it in the modern world?

JaronK
2007-04-19, 02:29 AM
Not really. I imagine an Athiest would be someone notices that Clerics can cast spells without worshipping a god. They might then surmise that the gods themselves are not sources of power... they're just powerful beings who use worship for their own ends, and channel power to their worshippers in return. Such a person might then refuse to worship any god, knowing that the power they gave was not in fact theirs.

JaronK

Narmoth
2007-04-19, 02:31 AM
Althrough few in a standard D&D-world can deny that devine powers excist, they can have various reasons to not worship them.

kpenguin
2007-04-19, 02:31 AM
Eberron. In Eberron, its not necessarily true that the gods exist.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-19, 02:32 AM
The Planar Handbook has a whole prestige class devoted to being an atheist. They just believe that the "gods" are very powerful beings but not the actual creators or gods.

Now someone believing that they don't actually exist in a regular game, that is grounds for calling them insane.

kpenguin
2007-04-19, 02:36 AM
I believe that was a faction in Planescape. I can't for the life of me remember the name, however. I think they're camped out at the base of the Spire, where god powers don't work.

The_Snark
2007-04-19, 02:37 AM
It's possible. Divine magic is pretty undeniable, but people use arcane magic without any sort of god, so I can see a character deciding that gods don't actually exist; after all, if they did, why wouldn't they just grant immense power to all their followers?

Of course, that assumes a setting that's more like Ebberon than the Forgotten Realms. If deities are walking around every few years, it's hard to start denying that.

I'm currently playing a very intelligent character who professes atheism, and simply doesn't believe that gods are anything more than powerful angels, devils, and such. The character's a psion, and knows very well that there are all sorts of sources for power. So what the character's asking is, what's the special line that makes these into deities? It isn't granting spells, because if your faith in your next-door neighbors is strong enough, that could grant you spells too. So it isn't a case of not believing in St. Cuthbert, who certainly exists. Just a case of not believing that godhood is anything more than a name.

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 02:37 AM
Considering that for the most part you can actually go up to deities and say 'hi', I don't think that 'atheist' or 'theist' are applicable terms to most D&D worlds. The closest thing I can think of would be someone who doesn't think the gods are particularly relevant to mortal lives, and worthy of only as much respect as anyone else of their accomplishments.

Ulzgoroth
2007-04-19, 02:40 AM
Not as bad, I think, but it certainly heads that way.

Divine magic working doesn't prove anything about gods. In fact, you could point to the godless clerics that some settings support as evidence that the people trying to convince you are running a con. Unless the gods inject clearly labeled miracles into your life, it's not difficult to denigrate the evidence. For most people in most settings, that's as far as it would go, though the neighbors would generally regard you as mad (maybe not even that in Eberron).

Of course, if the God is willing to be seen, either he can come to you or send an agent with Plane Shift/Gate to bring you. Then he could demonstrate the ability to do misc. amazing things. Even then, you could insist it's just a powerful wizard toying with you...which is at least as plausible as a real god deciding to drag you off to his home plane to prove he's real. Of course, somewhere around this point, the god presumably cares enough to stomp your puny brain to rubble with mind-affecting spells and make you believe, but that doesn't really involve convincing.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-04-19, 02:45 AM
Yep.
Though not an atheist in the strictest terms, my CG (variant) paladin is an atheist. He basically received divine power by virtue of being one of the few decent souls in the Mos Eisley of the world he's in. He grew up learning how to defend people because he saved his mother (a city whore FRANK MILLER ALERT) from someone and took to liking the deal.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-19, 02:48 AM
Going by Terry Pratchett, I´d have to say that atheists Can exist in D&D worlds.

They just need Evasion. :smallbiggrin:




"Gods? There are no gods!" *dodges lightningbolt*

Ulzgoroth
2007-04-19, 02:50 AM
I don't think saying that the gods exist, but aren't 'godly'/aren't worthy of worship/are just people with trans-epic powers is the same as atheism. Athar admit that Pelor is real, and has most of the same powers his lore claims for him. They just say that that being powerful and all doesn't make him a higher being. And, apparently, choose to believe that the gods certainly didn't create the universe...I dunno why, exactly. Seemingly because any proper universe-crafter would have left in even more back doors for himself.

kpenguin
2007-04-19, 03:25 AM
I think it all comes down to what defines a god. Is a god simply a being with extreme reality-shaping abilities? If so, than yes, you can't not believe in "gods". If gods are more than that, if gods are beings that can't be put into stats because of their awesomeness, then atheism can be justified because most D&D settings don't have that kind of god. Not to bring in my geekiness, but it makes me think of Stargate. Are the Ascended beings gods because they have extreme knowledge about the universe and have powers usually attributed to gods?

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-04-19, 03:30 AM
Well, as others have said, that depends on your definition of deity.

Are there people in Greyhawk who don't think that Pelor exists? Probably not. Are there people who think he's just a really powerful divine caster devoted to the principle of Sun? Probably.

The Athar definitely fall into this category.

Scalenex
2007-04-19, 04:27 AM
I think it all comes down to what defines a god. Is a god simply a being with extreme reality-shaping abilities? If so, than yes, you can't not believe in "gods". If gods are more than that, if gods are beings that can't be put into stats because of their awesomeness, then atheism can be justified because most D&D settings don't have that kind of god. Not to bring in my geekiness, but it makes me think of Stargate. Are the Ascended beings gods because they have extreme knowledge about the universe and have powers usually attributed to gods?

A friend of mine brought up Stargate. The issue of whether gods are just superpowerful beings brings up more issues. What is worship? If a god had a powerful priesthood in your area you may "worship" it just because it's easier than not. A Cure Minor Wounds would likely be enough to prevent death from child birth (one of the most common causes of death in the medieval world). One simple spell could mean the difference between life and death. Many priesthoods could win converts simply by offering periodic spells cast on their behalf once in a while (or to avoid having nasty spells cast on them). But how is that different from pledging fealty to a local lord because he protects you from raiders (and his own knights)? A powerful wizard living in a small community has godlike power over his fellows, if he chose to, it would be relatively easy to train the villagers to kneel around him and proclaim him a god. I once put up a forum asking if a Lawful Evil character could worship a good diety to avoid an unpleasant afterlife. On some level that's similar since cost-benefit analysis is used.

I can see how someone could refuse to worship any gods because s/he labels the gods as merely being very powerful individuals. This would be more likely with Chaotic characters, but certainly not limited to them. A Good character would resent being coerced by individuals, even ones with good intentions. A Neutral character may decided that the machinations of the "gods" are not relevant to them, and Evil characters may secretly be jealous of them and long for that power themselves. But that's not Atheism. By refusing to take part in the worship of powerful beings you still acknowledge they exist. It's nigh impossible to deny gods altogether.

If you go by the powerful being aspect (particularly in worlds where many gods are ascended mortals), it makes one ask "Where did the gods come from?" This has led to many cults of people who worship primal progenitor gods who created the gods themselves. They can't prove anything and they don't even get spells (they either say the current gods stole their creator's power or that it's to prove that being a dispenser of divine magic does not make a god). The lack of mystical power (and repression by the organized pantheons with magic wielding clerics) keeps their numbers down. It does bring the question of "what do dieties do beside empower clerics?" Even asking that question can threaten a temple's political power causing even a Lawful Good cleric to be more heavy handed than normal.

I've thought about boosting the roles of "clerics of a cause." A lot of religions acknowledge gods but focus more on philosophy and lifestyle. I think comparing and contrasting religion between Western and Eastern civilization lies in how Eastern religion often blurs the line between philosophy and worship. I like the idea philosopher clerics using Eastern religions as inspiration. They offer more than magical power, they offer a whole way of life. I do realize that a diety can set forth a code of conduct as well and that an organized temple based around a common philosophy with magical spells can wield cohersive powers. Sadly, boosting the presence of clerics of a cause has it's own unique problem. A player can create "the Path of What I Was Going to Do Anyway" as a code of conduct and then justify any two domains they want. There is much potential for both roleplaying and shameless powergaming.

I hope this is thought provoking in a good way. I'm too much of a perfectionist and I get so caught up designing real living worlds for my PCs to struggle in that I miss the trees for the forest and have trouble making dungeons. When creating D&D worlds from scratch, I think the divine cosmology and state of religion is the most important thing to consider because of how influential religion has been in the real world, it would be even more powerful if clergy could wield potent mystic powers.

my_evil_twin
2007-04-19, 04:34 AM
One easy way to be a D&D atheist is to be wrong. Adventurers of any significant level might find this hard, if they are constantly bombarded with the reality of divine magic. Although it might be amusing to see healing spells give a Will (disbelief) saving throw. But there can be godless commoners who don't much care about the workings of the cosmos.

A person can doggedly insist on a "rational" explanation for everything, even if they can't think of one themselves. Empiricism is a little anachronistic in a medieval setting, but so are lots of ideas we throw in there.

A person could also "believe" in gods, or at least not actively deny their existence, but care very little about them and assume they care even less about the affairs of mortals.

Ethdred
2007-04-19, 05:15 AM
Scalenex - that is almost exactly what I was going to say! And a lot more besides! Thanks a lot

Wasn't Socrates killed for atheism because he said all these Olympian deities you lot believe in are a bunch of silly stories and there is a truer god behind everything? So even in a time when people 'saw' divine power all around them, some people could go beyond that.

Roderick_BR
2007-04-19, 06:49 AM
I read a magazine once talking about it.

It's hard not to believe in the gods when you see paladins and clerics casting all sort of divine spells.
However, there are some variations to it:
1) The person may believe in the gods, but not that they actually intervene with mortals, magic included. Think Conan, for example.
2) The person may think that the gods doesn't exists, that all the religions are farces, and some devotes (like paladins) are tricked by the high-priests.
3) The person may think that the gods doesn't exists, but that clerics and paladins actually believe in them.
4) The person may think that the gods doesn't exists, and the clerics and paladins knows it, but maintain religious orders as some sort of social group to offer guidance, like the fabled wizard's schools.
In any case, he may think that divine casters are like wizards, only with a different use of magic, or are like most druids, that gather power from "natural" forces, instead of arcane sources.

Edo
2007-04-19, 07:06 AM
I believe that was a faction in Planescape. I can't for the life of me remember the name, however. I think they're camped out at the base of the Spire, where god powers don't work.The Athar. Who previously camped out in Sigil in the Shattered Temple of Aoskar, who the Lady of Pain killed with a thought because there weren't any free actions.

The Athar argument was a bit more sophisticated, and based around a distinction between "Power" and "God." They didn't deny the existence of divinity (they could be priests); what they DID do was openly deny that Bane, Heironeous, Thor & Co. were divine.

You could argue that they were atheists, but not nontheists.

Talya
2007-04-19, 07:06 AM
Have fun in the wall of the faithless!

Khoran
2007-04-19, 07:08 AM
I would say that so long as you don't have gods making trips to the material plane, you could be an Atheist. All those so called "Divine Powers" is just another kind of magic, there is no god behind it, it's just magic is an approach a character could take.

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 07:09 AM
You could argue that they were atheists, but not nontheists.

Uh... those are synonyms.

Edo
2007-04-19, 07:12 AM
Not entirely; it's the subtle distinction between not believing in gods and believing in no gods.

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 07:15 AM
Not entirely; it's the subtle distinction between not believing in gods and believing in no gods.

Theist = Believes in one or more gods.
Nontheist = Atheist = Not a Theist.

It's that simple, no subtlety there.

NullAshton
2007-04-19, 07:19 AM
It's entirely possible if the gods never visit the material plane. If a bunch of people say that there's a god, but noone ever returns from the afterlife or has actually seen a god, why would you think there's a god? There's divine magic, sure... but that could simply be passed off as a different application of the magic inherent in the world.

kamikasei
2007-04-19, 07:21 AM
Theist = Believes in one or more gods.
Nontheist = Atheist = Not a Theist.

It's that simple, no subtly there.

Eh...

The word "atheist" gets used to cover a great many slightly different positions. Generally, drawing a distinction between "nontheist" and "atheist" uses them as labels for "passive" and "active" atheism respectively; the difference between "I hold no belief that any god exists" and "I hold a belief that no god exists". Both flavors could fit in to an Athar-like philosophy, between "I don't see any reason to think these 'gods' are worthy of worship" and "I view these 'gods' as pretenders and usurpers to be reviled".

In most D&D settings, not believing that the entities who are called "gods" exist would be pretty nuts. Not believing that they're all-powerful, trustworthy, or deserving of worship is much more tenable, though probably not particularly attractive when you can find a deity of your philosophical bent and get magic powers from trusting in it.

Indon
2007-04-19, 07:34 AM
Depends on if your character is atheistic regarding gods (Divine Levels less than I think about 20) or Gods (Divine levels 20+). Deities of lower power levels have smaller portofolios, are less powerful, and actively have a hand in the world. Hard not to believe in them.

Gods of higher power levels are rarely if at all involved in the world, however. Their miracles are infrequent and easily ignored, and their portofolios are generally enormous... when there aren't lesser gods borrowing them, anyway. Supreme deities sometimes fall into this category (I think Ko from NWN was one).

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 07:36 AM
(I think Ko from NWN was one).

Ao (I assume you mean him) is in fact an Overdeity who controls Abeir-Toril.

Indon
2007-04-19, 07:38 AM
Yeah, Ao was it.

Wolf53226
2007-04-19, 07:45 AM
You could always believe that Divine Magic works much the same way as Arcane, and that no gods are needed to perform acts like healing, just an understanding of the underlying magic. Thus you could be an atheist and still get healed.

MusScribe
2007-04-19, 07:50 AM
Of course, it gets more interesting when you get a Wizard (or Sorcerer) and a Cleric of an Ideal (chose domains from full list) that assume the gods are just powerful beings using their worship for some unknown gain. They use the logic that they are not gods, but can duplicate what the 'god' can do, to show that he must not be a god.

And going by Kpenguin's point - If all you need to be a god is the ability to change reality on a large scale, then most 15+ (maybe lower) spellcasters are gods.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-04-19, 08:00 AM
I'll reference Pratchett, too. In Small Gods, the gods enjoy the occasional atheist. Their denial of the gods' existence wouldn't be so vehement if there was no proof the gods existed. Therefore a god can gauge his influence by the lengths an atheist goes through to disprove his existence.

draca
2007-04-19, 08:12 AM
I've thought about the different distinctions of faith in D&D worlds a lot, and I agree with most of what everyone has said so far. I believe that the firm answer depends on the details of the setting.

In a world where the gods never get directly involved, and much is left up to faith, (especially where you also have generic clerics of "good" and "evil") it would be easy to be a true atheist. You'd see the power of Good and Evil, and how people wield it, and could quite easily believe that the clerics that profess worship of a particular god are just drawing their power from that central source of Good or Evil and giving it definition and a character and a set personality and code of conduct that it "wants" you to follow. That would mean that the gods themselves do not exist, and it's just human nature (or sentient nature) to personify those mindless nameless wells of power - if good and evil aren't drawn from the same well in the first place.

In the typical fantasy setting where the gods are involved, make appearances, and directly influence the lives of mortals like Forgotten Realms, or numerous others, it’s really hard to be an atheist. It would be like disbelieving that the sky is sometimes, in fact, blue. You’d have to be completely out of touch with reality. So you could have an atheist, but he’d be insane. What everyone has been describing is being an agnostic. It simply put, means you don’t profess to know the answers, or accept the answers that the priests or others spoon-feed you. Rather then taking up too much space describing, here is a definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

My character in a game is like this. He’s a dark elf, who is a mage. Well, the way he sees it, he has his own supernatural powers, so what makes the gods so special other then magnitude? Detachment from the world can explain their moral absolutes. And the control and power plays of their churches - is that megalomania on the part of the god, or just on the part of its priests? (He grew up in a tyranny, and is very untrusting of authority.) He met a good goddess once, or a demi-god, or a priestess of that goddess, or just a really nice lady with some nice tricks. He doesn’t try too hard to draw the distinction. He doesn’t worship her, but he’ll help her followers, because he agrees with the ideas she supports. She’s a banner to rally under, no more or less then any champion mortal or otherwise.

For the 2 cents it’s worth, EQ categorizes characters this way too. They specifically call characters that do not worship a god agnostic, because in that world too, it’s impossible to deny the existence of the gods… just weather or not you’d bother to acknowledge one.

Runolfr
2007-04-19, 08:12 AM
D&D gods seem to require faith and believe on some level so it must be theoretically possibly to not believe in them.

I've never held to the notion that the D&D gods need mortal faith in order to have power. They do seem to need mortal conduits to manifest some of it, but I see a god as a god whether it has worshippers or not.

That said, you could have people who deny the existence of gods despite the wealth of empirical evidence, like the obvious functionality of divine spells. Such people would presumably be regarded as insane.

clarkvalentine
2007-04-19, 08:19 AM
I played a PC for several years who believed that the gods were not gods at all but very powerful mortals, and thus were unworthy of worship. (And in this campaign world, turns out he was right. :smallwink: )

Atheism? For all practical purposes, yes.

headwarpage
2007-04-19, 08:20 AM
(I'm dealing purely with the 'there are no gods' form of atheism here.)

Can atheists exist? Yes. People can choose to believe almost anything, and even overwhelming evidence to the contrary is seldom a deterrent. If somebody wants to be an atheist, they'll manage to believe that there aren't any gods.

Which brings us to the real question: can an atheist exist without either being horribly stupid or actively deluding himself? Well, probably. To some extent, it does depend on how active the gods are. If the gods have no hand in the world beyond divine magic, that proves nothing. There's plenty of magic in the world, and the fact that some of the spellcasters claim that their magic comes from gods doesn't mean that it's true. Even if the gods occasionally actually visit, that only proves their existence to the people who actually see them. Sure, Fred the atheist heard that Pelor paid a visit to some city across the continent, but they're a bunch of gullible fools over there anyway. It was probably just a wizard or something. Only PCs get to be present at every major event in the world, and Pelor isn't going to make an appearance just because some dirt farmer claims he doesn't exist. So even in a world with fairly active gods, you can build a case for atheism, unless you're one of the few people with personal experience to the contrary.

Now, is atheism a common or accepted belief in most D&D worlds? Definitely not. I mean, it's obvious to most people that the gods exist. The various churches are probably fairly powerful entities spreading the belief that the gods do exist, divine magic is pretty well-known, and besides, everybody knows the gods are there. Pretty much anybody wondering if the gods existed would look around and conclude that they did. To be an atheist, you'd almost have to start with the belief that the gods didn't exist, then carefully construct arguments to explain away the evidence to the contrary. And everybody would think you were stupid and crazy. And they'd probably be right.

Khoran
2007-04-19, 08:21 AM
I've never held to the notion that the D&D gods need mortal faith in order to have power. They do seem to need mortal conduits to manifest some of it, but I see a god as a god whether it has worshippers or not.
In the standard setting, they don't from what it seems. Example: Urbanus (Races of Destiny) had no followers and yet he was able to appear to architechts and city planers in a dream to give them insperation.

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 08:23 AM
To be an atheist, you'd almost have to start with the belief that the gods didn't exist, then carefully construct arguments to explain away the evidence to the contrary.

How much evidence would there be that you couldn't explain away with 'a wizard did it'? After all, Joe Farmer is vastly more likely to meet a wizard than a god, so they're at least a known quantity.

Jayabalard
2007-04-19, 08:36 AM
Re: Divine spells making it hard to be an atheist.

Depending on the game world:

Normal people (non-adventurers) may or may not ever come into contact with any magic, divine or arcane, so that may not even be an issue.
Even if they do see magic regularly, there isn't necessarily any outward, obvious difference between divine and Arcane magic; The difference between a cleric and a wizard to commoner is simply a name.


So, unless it's a world where the gods are really intrusive, it's possible to have atheists.

Person_Man
2007-04-19, 08:47 AM
In most cases, I'd say no.

Think of it this way - on Earth, 98% of people believe in a god, gods, or divine power of some sort. And no one has reliable empirical evidence to prove any of it.

In most D&D worlds the physically come down and do things, and/or channel their miracles through their clerics on a daily basis. You'd have to be delusional to see a cleric raise the dead and not believe in a god or gods of some sort.

random11
2007-04-19, 08:53 AM
An atheistic culture in my campain, explained that divine magic is very similar to other types of magic, and the caster simply believes that the source of power is his god.

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 08:54 AM
In most cases, I'd say no.

Think of it this way - on Earth, 98% of people believe in a god, gods, or divine power of some sort. And no one has reliable empirical evidence to prove any of it.

In most D&D worlds the physically come down and do things, and/or channel their miracles through their clerics on a daily basis. You'd have to be delusional to see a cleric raise the dead and not believe in a god or gods of some sort.

But equally, on Earth we don't have wizards to explain things away with. We have science instead, which uses long, hard to understand words, and therefore isn't nearly as easy or fun.
The presence of wizards is a great deal more tangible than that of gods; it's not hard to imagine that most commoners would think that everything big and impressive was caused by a suitably powerful wizard.

Jayabalard
2007-04-19, 08:58 AM
just curious, does that 98% have a source? I just did a quick google and the first couple sets of statistics I found on it were

US: "The 82 percent of adults who believe in God include 86 percent of women and 93 percent of Republicans but only 78 percent of men, 69 percent of those with postgraduate degrees, and 75 percent of political independents."
Czech: To the question whether they believe in god, 48% people responded negatively. Only 28% respondents said they believe. What about the rest? 24% of all respondents are mostly people without clearly specified faith.
UK: 27% are atheists; 70% believe in "God or some form of higher power";


Perhaps you have a better worldwide source?

kamikasei
2007-04-19, 09:06 AM
So you could have an atheist, but he’d be insane. What everyone has been describing is being an agnostic. It simply put, means you don’t profess to know the answers, or accept the answers that the priests or others spoon-feed you.

Agnosticism and atheism measure two different things: knowledge, and belief. An agnostic doesn't claim knowledge as to the existence of a deity, or holds that such knowledge is in principle possible. Thus an agnostic may be religious or not, believing out of sheer faith or disbelieving out of lack of evidence. Similarly, an atheist may not believe in a deity because he finds arguments for its existence unconvincing, or may be convinced by argument that deities don't exist (I hope the difference is clear).

Agnosticism as in "I don't know if there are gods" seems untenable in a standard D&D world; agnosticism as in "sure there are these god-beings, but what does that really mean?" is more plausible. Atheism as in "there are no gods!" would generally not work either, but "I don't see the point in toadying to Pelor any more than to Mordenkainen" wouldn't be insane, just unusual.

I'm actually curious about the flip side of this. What does it really mean to be religious in D&D? A follower of Pelor doesn't believe that Hextor doesn't exist or isn't a god. He'd not likely ever have a "crisis of faith" and wonder whether Pelor was there at all. Religion in D&D seems to have less to do with faith than with... affinity? Aspiration? "Belief" as in "I believe in truth" rather than "I believe in a particular statement of fact".

Aquillion
2007-04-19, 09:10 AM
I would say yes, but atheism in a D&D world would take a different form from in the real world--it would focus on denying the divinity of the D&D "gods", rather than their existance. A D&D athiest would say that their world's so-called gods are powerful but not divine in the sense that they claim to be.

And, honestly, if you look at the mechanics and not the word "divine", the rules mostly back this up--they're pretty much just mortals with some extra abilities granted by divine rank. This might seem superficially similar to some gods in real-world religions, but it isn't. The major greek gods, say, could appear human, act human, even make human mistakes, but they were in fact not even remotely human. They were considered to actually be whatever they represented--a river god wasn't an embodiment of the river, he was the river; Posiedon wasn't just the god of the sea, he was the sea; Ares wasn't just the god of war or some guy with war as a portfolio, he was war itself. The D&D gods are superficially based on myths like these, but examined closely (and with the possible exception of 'overgods') they aren't really presented as gods at all, mostly just wizards and clerics who learned enough tricks to become immortal.

MusScribe
2007-04-19, 09:11 AM
You know, I'm now considering getting a game going in which the reverse is true.

In this, you have Clerics of most to all gods running around, Wizards of varying power. Everything as it seems.

But no actual gods. The clerics get their power almost the same way that Wizards and Sorcerers do - a combination of a natural affinity with a large amount of study. And the spells work just fine.

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 09:13 AM
I'm actually curious about the flip side of this. What does it really mean to be religious in D&D? A follower of Pelor doesn't believe that Hextor doesn't exist or isn't a god. He'd not likely ever have a "crisis of faith" and wonder whether Pelor was there at all. Religion in D&D seems to have less to do with faith than with... affinity? Aspiration? "Belief" as in "I believe in truth" rather than "I believe in a particular statement of fact".

I'd guess it'd be somewhere between patriotism (you follow the religion of your parents and family) and political affiliation (have your say in the way the multiverse is run) depending on how powerful churches are and how tolerant of each other they are.

Wolf53226
2007-04-19, 09:20 AM
just curious, does that 98% have a source? I just did a quick google and the first couple sets of statistics I found on it were
US: "The 82 percent of adults who believe in God include 86 percent of women and 93 percent of Republicans but only 78 percent of men, 69 percent of those with postgraduate degrees, and 75 percent of political independents."
Czech: To the question whether they believe in god, 48% people responded negatively. Only 28% respondents said they believe. What about the rest? 24% of all respondents are mostly people without clearly specified faith.
UK: 27% are atheists; 70% believe in "God or some form of higher power";
Perhaps you have a better worldwide source?

Of course those crazy UK people also tried to make Jedi Knight (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/JediKnights/) a religion

headwarpage
2007-04-19, 09:20 AM
How much evidence would there be that you couldn't explain away with 'a wizard did it'? After all, Joe Farmer is vastly more likely to meet a wizard than a god, so they're at least a known quantity.

'A wizard did it' can explain absolutely anything in D&D. :smallbiggrin:

As I said, it's pretty hard for anybody short of the gods themselves to actually prove that they exist, let alone that they are, in fact, gods. But at the same time, there's probably a lot more evidence for the gods than against them. If you start out wondering whether there are gods or not, you'd probably look at the evidence and come to the conclusion that yes, there are. If you start out with the assumption that there are no gods, then it's going to be hard for somebody to convince you otherwise, because there are possible alternate explanations for most or all divine phenomena.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-19, 09:33 AM
How much evidence would there be that you couldn't explain away with 'a wizard did it'? After all, Joe Farmer is vastly more likely to meet a wizard than a god, so they're at least a known quantity.

Joe farmer, whose entire livelihood is dependent on things outside of his control, is *more* likely to be a theist, not less.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-19, 09:37 AM
Joe farmer, whose entire livelihood is dependent on things outside of his control, is *more* likely to be a theist, not less.

Well... how about Joe Philosopher? :smalltongue:

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 09:40 AM
Joe farmer, whose entire livelihood is dependent on things outside of his control, is *more* likely to be a theist, not less.

Why?
There are things outside his control.
There are people called wizards who can control things he can't.
Ergo, these things are controlled by a really powerful wizard.

I will admit that the difference between the hypothetical wizard and a deity is essentially academic, however.

headwarpage
2007-04-19, 09:45 AM
Joe farmer, whose entire livelihood is dependent on things outside of his control, is *more* likely to be a theist, not less.

Probably. The point is that if Joe takes it into his head to believe that the gods don't exist, there isn't really any overwhelming evidence that they do.

And the difference between any sufficiently powerful being and a god is pretty much academic. Let's face it, anything that can reach across planar boundaries to smite you for denying its existence probably deserves to be called a god.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-04-19, 09:49 AM
Going by Terry Pratchett, I´d have to say that atheists Can exist in D&D worlds.

They just need Evasion. :smallbiggrin:

"Gods? There are no gods!" *dodges lightningbolt*

Yeah, I was about to point that out... In the discworld, the gods get their kicks by using those foolish enough to declare themselves atheists as "lightning bolt smite target practice". Once the unbeliever is crispy, they also paint insults on their house walls and ruin the garden.

Given the fact that most deities in D&D worlds are as self-centered, mean and petty as the mortals that worship them, I would assume that being an atheist is a somewhat dangerous proposition.

Maybe a D&D deity would not go for the lightning bolt, but I would gather that the cleric of a zealous god living closest to the budding atheist teenager would get instructions on a dream to "go and have a chat with the troubled kid".

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-19, 09:51 AM
Wouldn't a supremely powerful being, such as the wizard that made everything, be considered a god?

Joe isn't really looking for an explanation of why things are the way they are, dirt farmers don't have time for that nonsense. Joe wants someone or something to keep his dirt wet in the summers and from freezing in the winter. Ergo, he asks a god. Who delivers, either with a druid or a cleric.

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 09:53 AM
Wouldn't a supremely powerful being, such as the wizard that made everything, be considered a god?

I think we're getting into the problem of 'what is a god' again.

Jayabalard
2007-04-19, 09:57 AM
Of course those crazy UK people also tried to make Jedi Knight (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/JediKnights/) a religionThe force counts as "some higher power" right?

I seem to recall that in Australia the same sort of thing happened trying to get the church of the FSM recognized through the census.

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 09:58 AM
The force counts as "some higher power" right?

I seem to recall that in Australia the same sort of thing happened trying to get the church of the FSM recognized through the census.

Was it? I know it has a published holy book and a Great Schism and all now.

KIDS
2007-04-19, 10:08 AM
Taking into account everything said in this thread... yeah, atheists likely exist in D&D, but are far less common than in real world.

Note that a lot of agnostics would be normal worshippers, there being so much proof. But again, not all.

Irenaeus
2007-04-19, 10:10 AM
just curious, does that 98% have a source? I just did a quick google and the first couple sets of statistics I found on it were
...
Perhaps you have a better worldwide source?

Western countries are often not representative when looking for global averages.

I recommend www.adherents.com as a good and extensive source. They place the number of Atheists world-wide at an estimated 210 million, or a bit over 3% of the population. They also have a much wider category called Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist that they place at 1.1 billion.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-19, 10:10 AM
Oh, knowing Gods are real and believing in them is something totally different. Having a character who says "Oh, sure, there are gods." doesn't have to pray to them, rely on them, think they're useful to him, or pay homage to them in any way.

Pratchett actually has a lot of material on this subject in hs various books, and makes perfect sense. I know my dog is real, but I don't worship her.

Jayabalard
2007-04-19, 10:41 AM
Western countries are often not representative when looking for global averages.

I recommend www.adherents.com as a good and extensive source. They place the number of Atheists world-wide at an estimated 210 million, or a bit over 3% of the population. They also have a much wider category called Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist that they place at 1.1 billion.http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html from that site, has 16% at non-religious; half of those are theist... so the other half (8%) are non-theist (atheist).

If you use your 3% (which I didn't see), that still makes his claim of 98% a bit of an exaggeration...

As for whether the western countries are representative: since they have such a high atheist rate compared to the rest of the world, that means there are quite a few "non-western" countries that have close to 100% people who have, or claim to have religious faith. In those western countries, you generally have the freedom to answer in the negative to those sort of questions without the fear of consequences... I wonder how true that is in the countries that are reporting close to 100% faith?

Person_Man
2007-04-19, 10:44 AM
just curious, does that 98% have a source?

Most atheist organizations claim about 2% world wide.

Encyclopedia Britinica puts it at about 3.8%, but it goes up to about 14% if you include secular, non-religious, and agnostics - which some people don't consider true atheists. There's also the whole practicing vs. non-practicing thing. Is someone really a Christian if they haven't received communion in ten years? Does someone really worship Kord if he hasn't strangled an enemy to death and then drank his blood once in a while? I think not.

So in D&D, I think its certainly possible to construct a world with atheists, and/or to have a small number of Wizards and Psions who attribute all magic in the world to science. As Clarke reminds us, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

But for the most part, the vast majority of people in D&D will believe in gods, just as the vast majority of people on earth do. Having said that, I am now going to avoid making any further reference to a real world religion (or lack there-off), since its against board rules to discuss it, and we've all been sorta skirting the edges in this thread.

the_tick_rules
2007-04-19, 10:44 AM
it'd be harder. the D&D gods are far more acessible than ours is, heck clerics and paladins talk to their gods every day for spells. but just not caring or not worshipping any is still an option, though i dunno if the gods may get peeved.

Irenaeus
2007-04-19, 11:07 AM
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html from that site, has 16% at non-religious; half of those are theist... so the other half (8%) are non-theist (atheist).

Agnostics make up the largest part of the non-theist part, so the number of atheists depends on wether we include agnostics in the term. Usually, such statistics is based upon self-identification.


If you use your 3% (which I didn't see), that still makes his claim of 98% a bit of an exaggeration...

Ahem. First off, I seem to have misquoted the site. It puts the worlds atheists at an estimated 240 million, not 210 making it nearly 4%. Sorry about that. And yes, that would make 98% a bit of an exaggeration, it should be 96%. It is listed in the full list of religions further down on the first page.

I'm in a hurry. I'll reply to the rest of your post later.

JadedDM
2007-04-19, 11:43 AM
I think, like so many things, it really depends on the DM and/or setting.

I could see possible atheists in Dragonlance, for instance, the way the gods jerk their followers around (we're here...no, we're leaving...actually, we never left...okay, we're leaving for sure this time...no, wait, we're back again).

By my own definitions, a god is a being that can grant divine powers. So a very high level wizard may coerce some simple dirt-kickers into worshipping him, but he is not a god. He is a false god. On my worlds, there are true gods and false gods.

There are no atheists in my world, except for the PCs. I have had a surprisingly high number of atheist PCs. I actually find it a little annoying, despite the ironic fact that I am an atheist myself.

It seems like if the PC isn't either a priest or a paladin, they don't worship the gods (or simply don't care). The fact that the souls of the faithless are destroyed instead of going to the next realm doesn't seem to deter them any.

Belteshazzar
2007-04-19, 11:56 AM
Being of a theistic person of an established religious order dating back roughly 2000 years (I am not quite sure what the forum rules on such topics are but I don't want to break them.) I found that I almost need a new designation or name to distinguish between a god (magical manifestation of a certain attribute, ideal or ascended mortal) or a God (omnipotent, omnipresent, omnisapient apex and or creator of existance) I would say that I used Tolkien's model (read the Simmerilion) as a basis in my world. There are lesser spiritual powers on level with various pantheons and when they manifest themselves (which they do frequently) so it would be hard to disprove their existence. But as most of you agree the difference between a Bob epic level wizard of metacheese and various sourcebooks and Thor god of thunder and oversized hammers is semantics when Bob may very well get the drop on Thor with improved Celerity. However I believe that most philosophers and most honest gods would realize the limitations this power and would still search for an 'absolute manifestation of divine existence' (read God) much like the Greek Academy did.

Lolzords
2007-04-19, 12:01 PM
Sure, clerics can be a cleric without a god. Like Elan stated, you can be a cleric of a cause.


Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship.

Diggorian
2007-04-19, 12:05 PM
Atheism (http://m-w.com/dictionary/atheist) is possible in D&D, but they've got to be vanishingly small in number, like those that disbelieve the Earth is round in our world.

The ignorant dirty farmer will turn to something beyond in a time of crisis. The studied academic knows about the planes of pantheons. Clerics and paladins could be agents of gods they dont know or worship; if not embryonic deities themselves. Boccob the Uncaring creates loopholes in reality to give mortals the chance to shape their own world with magic. You'd nearly need to be insane not believe in them.

And that's how I like my fantasy, science free. :smallbiggrin:

Jayabalard
2007-04-19, 12:09 PM
I'm in a hurry. I'll reply to the rest of your post later.hmm, I suggest following the advice above and dropping it for the most part... this is starting to slide a bit too much to RL religion and getting into specifics rather than generalizations.

Lemur
2007-04-19, 02:30 PM
I think a lot of people could be without faith in any gods in a normal D&D world. This doesn't require denying their existance, but rather, believing that the gods either don't care, are a useless waste of time, or the like.

Then of course, you have the god of atheism and his clerics. It's a little known fact that the god of atheism is the most powerful god in existance. This is because unlike other gods, he's powered by non-belief instead of belief. And no one in their right mind believes that there's actually a god of atheism.

Roderick_BR
2007-04-19, 02:51 PM
How much evidence would there be that you couldn't explain away with 'a wizard did it'? After all, Joe Farmer is vastly more likely to meet a wizard than a god, so they're at least a known quantity.
The fact that a wizard can't cast some divine spells?
Farmer: "Please, mister mage, can you heal my son? He got badly injured in a landslide."
Wizard: "Uh... I'll back you up on that."

Innis Cabal
2007-04-19, 02:54 PM
it depends on the setting...as i am sure many have said....In FR...being an atheist is not only silly but wrong. In others? Well its all conjecture really

Jayabalard
2007-04-19, 02:57 PM
Wizard: "Uh... I'll back you up on that. Sorry, I didn't study that school of magic, you'll have to talk to that wizard over there *points to the group's cleric-that-follows-no-god*"

Fixed that last line for ya.

Theodoxus
2007-04-19, 03:13 PM
our cleric was a monotheistic cleric of Horus-Re, until he managed to piss off Moradin to the point where he was struck by lightning. He now emphatically believes in the divine existance of Horus-Re and Moradin, but no other dieties.

I definitely think it comes down to the DM as to whether the world could support true Atheists or not. Even Forgotten Realms (which our DM states 'you can't walk 10' without running into an Avatar of a god) could be run more like Dragonlance, where divine magic wasn't heard of until what'sherface decided to gift the world with her healing magic.

Dark Sun also didn't have dieties - but relied on Elemental and Sorcerer-King magic accessing the Positive and Negative Material Planes.

I think it'd be a great campaign to start a game where the gods didn't exist (perhaps everything rose up via evolution) but once humanity reached a specific level of learning, or had somehow proven themselves in some way, a pantheon of superbeings 'brings the good word' and slowly indoctrinates the whole of the world into worshipping them.

MethodicalMeat
2007-04-19, 03:23 PM
Of course Atheists can exist, just because gods exist in Dungeons and Dragons doesn't mean everyone believes in them. My last character was a non-spellcaster atheist who believed that "divine" magic was just arcane magic with fancy white robes and holy symbols.

Rad
2007-04-19, 03:59 PM
Then of course, you have the god of atheism and his clerics. It's a little known fact that the god of atheism is the most powerful god in existance. This is because unlike other gods, he's powered by non-belief instead of belief. And no one in their right mind believes that there's actually a god of atheism.

LLLLLLLLOOOOOOLLLLLLLL

Back to the topic, a lot of people, in particular those without ranks in knowledge(Arcana) or spellcraft, can well believe that divine magic is just magic and clerics are mages that seek to control the people through their cults. This includes the greatest part of the population, and the good part of the PCs. The fact that the adept class (the one that should be more common among commoners) has a mix of arcane and divine effects does not help either.
Learned people should know better, and any arcane user will know that there is a difference. Weather the "other" magic really comes from the Gods or not is a matter of faith though. Sure, there are some planes out there with extremely powerful beings that probably pass on those powers... is that all that it takes to have a religion?
Divine magic users, of course, usually know first hand, as well as believing.

Aquillion
2007-04-19, 04:04 PM
The fact that a wizard can't cast some divine spells?
Farmer: "Please, mister mage, can you heal my son? He got badly injured in a landslide."
Wizard: "Uh... I'll back you up on that."You know, this isn't hypothetical. There is a campaign setting where extremely powerful wizards effectively take the place of gods. I'd assume, in fact, that atheism is widespread in the Dark Sun world--who would believe that gods had ever existed in a world like that, particularly when the Sorcerer-Kings seem to eclipse many of the mythical old gods in power?

The Sorcerer-Kings essentially created Athas--they put it in its current state, their actions decided what races survived and which didn't survive, and their struggles and decisions form its overarching mythology. Compared to them, the vanished gods are mere myths--not only myths, but improbable-sounding myths, myths whose stories apply to a fertile world that no longer exists.

...and it's fairly easy to see how the situation you described above works in Athas, too.

Farmer: Please, Sorcerer-King, can you heal my son? He got badly injured in a landslide.
Wizard: Certainly! *Finger of Death*
Farmer: No!
Wizard: *Animate Dead*
Son: (Children of the Corn eyes, creepy voice.) Hello, father...
Wizard: There. Now, any other requests?
Farmer: *sobbing*
Wizard: I said...
Farmer: Ahhh! No, great liege, none!
Wizard: I didn't think so.

Indon
2007-04-19, 04:07 PM
Rad; what about a divine magic user who serves a cause? A caster who serves, say, Good may well believe his power springs from his faith rather than any outside source, and could further believe that clerics who worship deities get their powers the same way; from faith.

JadedDM
2007-04-19, 05:24 PM
While some people may be ignorant in the difference of arcane magic and divine prayer, there is always one big difference--healing. I remember in reading the Chronicles in Dragonlance, that was the biggest impact of the Cataclysm and the lost of the gods--the loss of magical healing. Even after the Age of Despair began, the wizards remained and kept all their powers. Many even posed as charlatan clerics.

But only when Goldmoon reintroduced magical healing did people begin to believe in the gods again.

Diggorian
2007-04-19, 06:02 PM
Back to the topic, a lot of people, in particular those without ranks in knowledge(Arcana) or spellcraft, can well believe that divine magic is just magic and clerics are mages that seek to control the people through their cults. This includes the greatest part of the population, and the good part of the PCs. The fact that the adept class (the one that should be more common among commoners) has a mix of arcane and divine effects does not help either.

I'm inclined to think the average commoner views arcane as the "other magic" since divine casters are the most prevalent in their lives. Clerics treat the sick, heal otherwise fatal injuries, offer aid in bad times, and preach goodness and mercy every Godsday. Wizards destroy things, pervert nature, and make powerful toys for rich folk.

Ofcourse their are exceptions to both: the dark priest of slaughter and the Evoker that does fireworks at parties. Yet our own history shows religion to be a popular unifier even with rumored divine interventions. Imagine if priests and ministers really did have an arsenal of miracles per day.


Learned people should know better, and any arcane user will know that there is a difference. Weather the "other" magic really comes from the Gods or not is a matter of faith though. Sure, there are some planes out there with extremely powerful beings that probably pass on those powers... is that all that it takes to have a religion?
Divine magic users, of course, usually know first hand, as well as believing.

Religions usually take a Message and a Miracle:

"Those that hold Valor first in their hearts and minds shall reap the blessings and powers gifted to the Chosen of Heironeous!", followed by the creation of the first paladins, forms a religion.

"Worship me or breathe Cloudkill!" is a Wizard's threat. :smallamused:

Yahzi
2007-04-19, 06:45 PM
Wasn't Socrates killed for atheism
Socrates was charged with public impiety; basically, with corrupting the young.

Given that he constantly preached that democracy sucked, and given that his nephew overthrew the democracy of Athens and instituted a tyranny twice, it's perhaps understandable why people wanted him to shut the heck up already. :smallbiggrin:


So even in a time when people 'saw' divine power all around them, some people could go beyond that.Sure. The gods in D&D, as in Greek mythos, seem awfully petty and human-sized. Heck, mortals occasionally kick their butts. It's not a far stretch to argue they aren't "gods," but merely "people with divine levels," and hence no more worthy of worship than anyone else.

On the other hand, rulers in history were often worshiped as gods anyways (look at all the Roman emperors!), so many worshipers might be singularly unconcerned with the fine distinctions. If praying to Bobbafett gets me an extra spell per day, then Bobbafett can call himself a cheese grater for all I care. :smallbiggrin:

Wystrell
2007-04-19, 07:01 PM
Rad; what about a divine magic user who serves a cause? A caster who serves, say, Good may well believe his power springs from his faith rather than any outside source, and could further believe that clerics who worship deities get their powers the same way; from faith.

Actually, for my homebrew I made a Cleric-mirror that technically allows for athiesm... and a lot of other theological playtime.

I call them Zealots; basically, they take divine power from placing enormous belief in something. They can be God-based (I <3 Pelor!), ideal-based (I fight for justice!), self-based (I can do anything!), or goal-based (I will kill [person]!). Goal-based Zealots have a funny gray area; say you're a Lv. 5 Bumpkin, and someone kills your sheep companion - you could automatically switch to an Lv. 5 Zealot until you'd avenged the death of your sheep, and at that time you switch back to Bumpkin. Goal-based Zealots are more powerful than the others, but temporary. I'm not sure if any powers used while a Zealot would transfer around, but the belief is the cause of Divine power.

The real point of giving Zealots so much leeway was that I wanted Commies in my homebrew. xD

In most D&D games I don't think it's possible to deny the existence of gods, but then again the game I'm playing doesn't have a Cleric. :smalltongue:

Stormcrow
2007-04-19, 07:13 PM
My campaign setting has several athiest nations without clerics. The Arcanists come from those nations.

Irenaeus
2007-04-20, 03:41 AM
hmm, I suggest following the advice above and dropping it for the most part... this is starting to slide a bit too much to RL religion and getting into specifics rather than generalizations.

I think I will. I wrote my last post while Person Man posted his words of caution, and I must say it did not occur to me that we might be getting close to breaking any forum rules.

Lets return to Person Man's main point. Considering the staggering number of theists in this world, the number of strong atheists (people believing strongly in the non-existence of divine beings) in most DnD settings would be extremely small.

I suspect the closest one would usually get is speculations about the gods' limitations and any possible higher divinities above the known gods. Both gnostic and buddhist worldviews can almost be applied wholesale in most settings.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-04-20, 05:14 AM
I don't agree with anyone suggesting that you couldn't play an atheist in D&D.
It is entirely possible to be an atheist character even when powerful beings calling themselves "gods" are actively involved in your world. The character simply believes these entities are lying or misguided in their claims. He or she could -for example- see the "gods" as merely powerful outsiders, could see Divine magic as just another form of magic, powered by tapping into extra-planar energies, and no more "holy" than psionics. In a setting where the "gods" are not active, or remote, or whatever, there's no great leap to atheism.

As for "historical inaccuracy" - what history is this? Even in the real world, the ancient Greek philosophers were heading an understanding of the world without recourse to gods. It's been suggested (by Mary Renault and Robert Graves) that the priests of Minoan Crete didn't exactly believe in their gods, they just knew a good power-tool when they saw it.

Older versions of D&D took some pains to suggest that the "gods" of the published settings were just powerful outsiders and that the real creation of the multiverse was an unknowable event, lost in the mists of time. The Immortals set for Classic D&D suggested the even the most powerful Immortals were searching for the "Old Ones" - beings immensely more powerful and suspected to be the creators of everything, just as moertal suspected the Imortals to be the Divine Creators.

In essence, there is no need for all characters in a D&D game to believe that the "gods" are really what they say they are. The RAW even gives you room to not believe in or worship any deity and still get Divine magic.

Om
2007-04-20, 05:32 AM
Going by Terry Pratchett, I´d have to say that atheists Can exist in D&D worlds.

They just need Evasion. :smallbiggrin: Pratchett does raise another fascinating point in Small Gods which is relevant to D&D. We know that type likes the Athar acknowledge the existence of gods, while denying their divine nature, and even worship, to a degree, the Great Unknown. This is probably the most rational representation of atheist ideals in a world where gods actually exist.

But what of those who refuse to even admit the existence of Pelor and the like? Obviously this is a stance extremely hard to maintain in a world filled with gods and would require a huge amount of belief to sustain. If all belief goes somewhere then its not too far fetched that there may be a god of atheism out there somewhere.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-04-20, 06:20 AM
D&D Atheist characters don't have to refuse to believe that Pelor exists (in a world where Pelor does exist), they just have to disbelieve that Pelor is a god.

Example - atheist wizard says: "Yeah, Pelor? I totally agree, he's an amazingly powerful thing, with access to lots of spells and spell-like abilities. Yes, I find him a bit intimidating. But worshipping him? Gimme a break! That's just silly. If he's so cool, why does he need the little mortals to tell him? What an insecure entity! Okay, so he grants spells - so what? So does my spell book! Turning undead, you say? I've got it here already: I can cast Disrupt Undead 9 times a day already. That's not Divine, it's necromancy. Just wait till I research a better version..."

:biggrin:

Incidently, there are lots of Star Trek episodes where this stance is taken: you know - unknown energy being #4562 claims to be Apollo. Kirk says "So what? We don't care. We've got amazing science and interstellar travel, we don't need energy beings claiming to be gods and demanding worship, thanks. We get by on our own merits now."

That's the way I see atheist D&D characters - they're people who just aren't impressed by "gods", don't see the point, and want to live their lives by a set of rules and values that are their own, not those imposed by some alien outsider or its church.

Om
2007-04-20, 06:35 AM
D&D Atheist characters don't have to refuse to believe that Pelor exists (in a world where Pelor does exist), they just have to disbelieve that Pelor is a god.
Which is very much the Athar approach and the most reasonable translation of atheism in a D&D environment. What I was wondering though is the amount of faith required to sustain the belief that Pelor does not exist. So instead of explaining away these powerful beings, its very much a simple rejection and denial that they even exist. Presumably this entails considerably more faith than that required to believe that the gods actually do exist.

Naturally I'm not suggesting that this is the case for all atheists in D&D, but its an interesting premise for a character.

headwarpage
2007-04-20, 08:33 AM
I think it would be fairly easy for an atheist to sustain active disbelief that the gods even exist. Obviously, he'd be wrong, but that's not the point. Really, what is the evidence that the gods exist, from the perspective of a random commoner?

Divine magic - Sure, this undeniably exists, but it doesn't necessarily come from a god. Even if it does, you only have the priests' word on that. If you think the priests are lying, or just mistaken about where their power comes from, the existence of divine magic proves nothing.

The existence of the deities on their home planes - Indisputable evidence that the gods exist, but your average commoner is only vaguely aware of the world outside his village, let alone the structure of the multiverse. He's pretty unlikely to find himself traveling the planes to confirm the existence of Pelor.

Tangible and indisputable divine intervention on the material plane - Well, it's pretty hard to deny Pelor's existence when he knocks on your front door, but how often does that really happen? Even in a setting like FR, it's really only the heroes who meet deities every other day. So your average commoner has definitely heard of instances of the gods involving themselves in the world, but it's pretty unlikely that he, or anybody he knows, has actually seen it happen. If he's inclined to believe that the gods don't exist, he'll decide that these reports are exaggerated, simply untrue, or that it's some sort of scam.

Reincarnation - Presumably, when somebody gets brought back from the dead, they come back with some sort of memory of being dead, which tends to lend some credence to certain theories about what happens after you die. But again, this isn't something that your average commoner is going to have much contact with.

So unless there's something out there that I'm overlooking, it would be pretty easy for an atheist to deny the existence of the gods. Granted, it's mostly through ignorance, but I don't think any of the assumptions I made were unreasonable. As I have said, there's a lot more evidence for the existence of the gods than against, but if a person took it into their head to disbelieve, there's not as much concrete evidence for the existence of the gods as you would think, and the average person isn't all that likely to come across it. As players, of course, we know that the gods exist - they're right there in the PHB. But a random NPC living in the world doesn't have any real proof, and could be an atheist if he wanted to.

Sebastian Bux
2007-04-20, 08:40 AM
Given that the PHB has a big pantheon of standard gods and most D&D games have a full pantheon (or several) with several clerics, many that have institutions. Clerics are possibly the most common PC class and they use obvious divine magic, yet D&D gods seem to require faith and believe on some level so it must be theoretically possibly to not believe in them. Assuming clerics are fairly proactive (Good clerics help commoners, Evil clerics terrorize them), everyone would at least knows someone who knows someone whose seen divine magic with their own eyes. In a D&D world, would that be the equivalent of ignoring empirical evidence and saying that the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around it in the modern world?

Respect to previous posters who may have already made this point, I didn't read all of these before posting.

In Forgotten Realms (a D&D campaign setting that I love) you have "the Faithless". These are persons who choose to not worship any of the divine powers. Little do they know that to not worship is to face judgement in the city of the dead by the Lord of the Dead, Kelemvor. They are judged for how they lived while alive and cast into the city's wall to remain until finally absorbed.

It's a big wall and there are a lot of bodies writhing in it so that says to me there are a lot of Atheists in Forgotten Realms.

Justin_Bacon
2007-04-20, 09:53 AM
Given that the PHB has a big pantheon of standard gods and most D&D games have a full pantheon (or several) with several clerics, many that have institutions. Clerics are possibly the most common PC class and they use obvious divine magic, yet D&D gods seem to require faith and believe on some level so it must be theoretically possibly to not believe in them.

Belief and faith in a typical D&D setting has more to do with keeping faith than with a Tinkerbell-esque or "I believe in miracles" type of thing.

D&D theologies don't really embrace the whole concept of irrational belief -- that your faith in God is best shown because you believe He exists despite the lack of any tangible evidence that he does.

(Although there's nothing to say you couldn't.

"Your god grants no spells?" "Yes." "Your god has no avatars to walk upon the earth?" "Yes." "He has no holy warriors to defend his worshippers?" "Yes." "Your god speaks to no priest?" "Yes." "Then how do you know your god is real?" "Because I believe."

To believe in the absence of miracles, despite the profligate miracles which surround you every day. That could be some interesting stuff.)

Digression aside, religions in D&D have a theology based around common beliefs: Not belief in the existence of a god, but a set of ethical beliefs. Not faith that a god exists, but keeping faith with a god and the vows you've sworn him.

(This is actually closer to the way that even Christian faith has been understood historically. The modern predominance of the meaning "I believe God exists" when you say "I believe in God" is a reaction to the rise of rationalism.)

So, as far as "atheism" goes:

1. If by "atheist" you simply mean "follows the teachings of no god", then they could certainly exist.

2. If by "atheist" you mean "someone who doesn't believe in the existence of a god", then they could exist, too -- but, ironically, they would be completely irrational. In the real world there is no evidence that God exists, so its irrational to believe in his existence. But in a D&D setting there's all kinds of evidence that gods exist, so it would be irrational to not believe in their existence.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Jarawara
2007-04-20, 10:20 AM
A quick question: A magician casts a spell. Does that prove the existence of a deity or higher power?

No?

So then you see this "cleric" casting spells in town. Does that prove the existence of his deity?

Are you sure he's even a cleric, and not just a charlatan, a magician posing as the voice of a false god?

Are you sure *you're* even a cleric, and not just a charlatan???

In my campaign world, the gods are unproven entities. The magic that is available to wizards is surprisingly similar to the magic available to clerics. While one could claim that the "magic" clerics use must obviously come from a higher source... maybe that's the same as where the magic the wizards use comes from as well. And since we all know wizards gain their powers from trafficking with demons... *gulp* :smallconfused:

"God" usually comes to speak to the PC cleric from time to time - in dreams, visions, and times of stress. Taking hard drugs can also help you see god. Usually the visions are unclear, ambiguous, and has a tendency to go off topic, as if the subconscious mind is taking the "message" and sorting it into a dream. You know how a dream can turn rather wacky and off topic? Well, God just showed up in your dream, told you of a great evil that must be smitten, told you where to find the weapon that can defeat said great evil, and then told you to wear more pink frills in your clothing, and then danced around the room holding an infinite number of ale mugs in one hand, and your former girlfriend in the other, doesn't she look pretty in pink frills... *blink, blink* Uh, what was I just dreaming about?

Try telling the party about your dream the next day, evil, smite, weapons, pink frills, infinite ale, girls, more pink frills... all the while keeping an absolute and solid faith in the existence of your god.

Once you realize that you had to "edit" your dream to make it sound more believable to your friends, you then realize that father Monahaim probably edited his visions when he was teaching you all about your god in the first place. A shaky foundation to your whole set of beliefs, yes?

Yet you still cast spells. How? Oops, remember those demons and offworldly powers those wizards gain their powers from? --eek!-- :smalleek:

Then there's the case of the party that proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the god of the orcs (name deleted) and the human warlord god (name deleted) was the same entity. And then proved that the human god (name deleted) and the elvish god (name deleted) was also one and the same. Just who are these gods that seemingly serve different roles on different days of the week? Just how many roles do each of these entities play? How many "gods" are there? Is there perhaps only one, playing the part of multiple gods to better be accepted by each culture?

And if they (or "it") lied about who they were, then what else did they lie about? If these "gods" are masquerading in different guises, just what is their actual true self? Are they "gods" at all, or something else entirely? Do they empower their clerics with spellcasting ability, or do they just manipulate their worshipers for their own dark design?

Or... did that party that supposedly proved how our gods are all fake and are lying and manipulating us... maybe they are wrong, possibly with their own agenda, trying to shake us from our faith in the almighty. Do not listen to these blasphemers, theirs are not the words of the faithful, their souls will burn in the everlasting rage of our father and savior. Heed my words, for they are the only true words of the only true god. Heed my words, for by following my lead, everlasting life and the kingdom of heaven will be yours.

Oh, and that cleric over there, preaching the words of a false god - He gets his spellcasting powers from demons, just like those evil wizards. Only we get the true powers of God. Listen only to me.

And wear more pink frills.

Diggorian
2007-04-20, 10:24 AM
Justin makes the point I was trying to make in my first post: that you'd nearly need to be insane to be an atheist in D&D (using his #2 definition of Atheism, which is the Merriam-Webster meaning (http://m-w.com/dictionary/atheist).)

The #1 meaning is more being irreligious (http://m-w.com/dictionary/irreligious), not the true topic.

Om
2007-04-20, 10:28 AM
Justin makes the point I was trying to make in my first post: that you'd nearly need to be insane to be an atheist in D&D (using his #2 definition of Atheism, which is the Merriam-Webster meaning (http://m-w.com/dictionary/atheist).)"Irrational belief" hardly translates as insane :smallconfused:

Jarawara
2007-04-20, 10:32 AM
I was just looking up "Atheism" over at dictionary.com It gave two definitions for atheism, of which I find to be contradictory to each other.

Atheism: noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God
2. a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
These are not the same. One has a belief, the other, simply a lack of belief.

When people ask what my beliefs are, I say "I believe... nothing." I do not believe in the existance of a god... but neither do I believe *there is no god*. I simply don't know (and really don't care, but that's a bit off topic). I am willing to consider that there might be a god, or that there might not be, or that there might be many gods. I am willing to consider just about anything - but I shall never *believe* any of the possibilities, ever. I believe nothing, nor will I ever. By believing in one thought, I am rejecting the possibility of many other opposing thoughts. I like to keep an open mind about those opposing possibilities, so I never fully lock in on any one of them.

I am an atheist: I do not believe in the existance of God.
I am not an atheist: I do *not* believe there is no God.

*~*~*

And God, if you're listening, sorry, but you just didn't make your case clear enough. I'm not ruling out your existance, but I just can't accept you as being a definate. If that irks you, well, I promise to wear more pink frills. Will that suffice? Thanks in advance.

headwarpage
2007-04-20, 10:34 AM
Justin makes the point I was trying to make in my first post: that you'd nearly need to be insane to be an atheist in D&D (using his #2 definition of Atheism, which is the Merriam-Webster meaning (http://m-w.com/dictionary/atheist).)

The #1 meaning is more being irreligious (http://m-w.com/dictionary/irreligious), the the true topic.

Or they'd just need to be ignorant of a lot of the evidence that the gods exist. Your average commoner might encounter divine magic in his personal experience. And again, that proves nothing - divine spells don't come with a sign that says 'This CLW brought to you by Pelor'. The rest of it is likely to be hearsay at best. They don't believe the gods exist simply becuase they haven't encountered any real evidence that the gods do exist.

Fhaolan
2007-04-20, 10:47 AM
I was just looking up "Atheism" over at dictionary.com It gave two definitions for atheism, of which I find to be contradictory to each other.

Atheism: noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God
2. a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
These are not the same. One has a belief, the other, simply a lack of belief.

When people ask what my beliefs are, I say "I believe... nothing." I do not believe in the existance of a god... but neither do I believe *there is no god*. I simply don't know (and really don't care, but that's a bit off topic). I am willing to consider that there might be a god, or that there might not be, or that there might be many gods. I am willing to consider just about anything - but I shall never *believe* any of the possibilities, ever. I believe nothing, nor will I ever. By believing in one thought, I am rejecting the possibility of many other opposing thoughts. I like to keep an open mind about those opposing possibilities, so I never fully lock in on any one of them.

I am an atheist: I do not believe in the existance of God.
I am not an atheist: I do *not* believe there is no God.

*~*~*

And God, if you're listening, sorry, but you just didn't make your case clear enough. I'm not ruling out your existance, but I just can't accept you as being a definate. If that irks you, well, I promise to wear more pink frills. Will that suffice? Thanks in advance.


That's agnosticism, which is far more likely in a D&D world with active Gods than Atheism. From the character's point of view: Gods may exist, or they may not. Some extremely powerful creature might show up claiming to be a God, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a God. It might actually be a God, it might be lying. How would we know the difference? That's the basis of Agnosticism; as mortals how can we ever be sure?

We as players know they're Gods, because the DM has defined them as Gods. The campaign setting uses the label 'Gods' for these entities. But that doesn't mean the characters in the setting necessarily believe in that definition of Gods.

Jarawara
2007-04-20, 10:57 AM
Thanks, Fhaolan, that's the definition I was looking for. Ok, I am Agnostic.

I was trying to edit my post, since I hadn't really finished my post - that Atheism can exist in D&D much in the same form as mine, but if I'm Agnostic, not Atheist, that sort of blows my theory.

Still, if you're convinced that Gods do not exist, you could still disbelieve after seeing 'proof', simply by arguing it away.

You could look right into the eyes of Pelor, see his miracles and wonders, and look past him through the gates of heaven itself... but there could always be that little part of you that wonders "Is this all just a dream? Am I hallucinating? Is this a trick? Is he a demon in disguise, trying to lure me away from my happy home and even my very sanity itself? Oh wait, that's right, I don't believe in demons either! Well then, it must be father Monahaim again, putting on a show to try to get himself his 1000th convert and win the free paid vacation to the see the High Church of Bigsville. He's not going to trick me this time, nor ever! I know it's all just an illusion, there's no such thing as God!"

And with that, atheism is alive and well in your campaign!

But I bet it'll be quite uncommon. In fact, I bet there'll less atheists then those people who see rather mundane 'miracles' and attribute them to some kind of deistic event. "What's that? A Bugbear you say? No, that was the tree god Karragetal. Follow him to his lair, so that we may all bow down and worship him. And if he eats us for lunch, we may die knowing we join our God in the almighty afterlife, entering through the gates of heaven"*

*The sacred texts of Karregetal are unclear as to what the gates of heaven are, but religious scholars have theorised the gates consist of Bugbear teeth, and heaven is what the Bugbear feels when he finishes his meal of fresh worshipers. Be warned, this religion is not for everyone.

kamikasei
2007-04-20, 11:50 AM
That's agnosticism, which is far more likely in a D&D world with active Gods than Atheism... That's the basis of Agnosticism; as mortals how can we ever be sure?

It's not really, though. I've mentioned this earlier. There's not a single line with Theism (belief in a god) at one end, Atheism (disbelief in a god) at the other, and Agnosticism (indifference, ignorance or ambivalence) sitting in the middle. The words are often used like that, but agnosticism is about knowledge and it is possible to believe something or not based on no knowledge. A person who doesn't claim to know whether there is a god but doesn't think that there is is both agnostic and atheist. (And it sounds like the parent is also igtheist, as in, doesn't care or considers the question pointless.)

Note: I think (and hope) that discussing definitions like this is within the bounds of the forum rules, but I suspect that describing our own religious (non-)beliefs is not.

Diggorian
2007-04-20, 12:18 PM
"Irrational belief" hardly translates as insane :smallconfused:

I know, that's why I said "nearly". Irrational belief can be a symptom of insanity, but is not insanity.



Or they'd just need to be ignorant of a lot of the evidence that the gods exist. Your average commoner might encounter divine magic in his personal experience. And again, that proves nothing - divine spells don't come with a sign that says 'This CLW brought to you by Pelor'. The rest of it is likely to be hearsay at best. They don't believe the gods exist simply becuase they haven't encountered any real evidence that the gods do exist.

Someone raised by wolves that is ignorant of society wouldnt believe in the gods if they never heard of them, true.

The average commoner though, based on how the DMG figures demographics, will have contact with a divine caster. The verbal components of divine spells most likely mention the deity, like prayers do. If not, the holy symbol is a dead giveaway. If not, the direct question of how it was done will likely be replied with something to the effect of 'This CLW brought to you by Pelor', more or less eloquently :smallwink:

Even those that havent seen it for themselves likely have heard of the gods. "Where does this come from?", it's one of the first questions children ask. The medieval answer is invariably and in some way linked to the divine because there's no other explanation and it's more satisfying than "I dont know."

So again, it is possible to be an atheist in a D&D world. I just dont think it's very likely at all.

Matthew
2007-04-20, 08:20 PM
You could belong to Planescape's Athar faction, but that is pretty much as close as you can really get, as far as I can see. A Fantasy Atheist who outright denied the existence of Deities and Divine Magic would have to be able to explain it when he witnessed it, and as Diggorian says, that is none too easy or likely.

johhny-turbo
2007-04-21, 12:44 AM
Well in Eberron at least an atheist could theoretically exist.

Falconsflight
2007-04-21, 01:39 AM
Okay, to first start off my argument, Definition of a god: A being of immense power that has been(Closest relation would be "Alive" But Somehow it just doesn't really fit. Just Has been) part of the universe(This inlcudes all the planes) Since, if not before, the creation. (Creation includes the splitting into the planes and the creation of the material world). Any gods that are made after that point aren't gods, but more Demi-gods. This includes people of immense power. (Arcane or Divine.)

Now to the question: Can Athiests exist in most D&D worlds? Yes. Any divine power can be explained away as arcane magic. This is highly unlikely to be used by any Cleric or wizard or Average Joe Farmer. Athiests would be few and far between. If we assume that most D&D worlds are set in the medieval times, then you should take the statistics of then, in which almost everybody believes in a god or religion. Why? Becuase Farmer Joe has a horrible horrible life. disease, famine, pain, hurt. He has 8 children, 3 die before they become 10 years old. He has to do back breaking work day in-day out. He believes in the gods because he wants his afterlife to be perfect, like the clerics tell him. They want to believe that when they die they go to a place of perfection. And the churches keep the peace by adding "But only if you are a good person" This could be to be obediant or to love thy neighbor, or something. It depends on the god.

Now this is most often seen during the rural areas of the world. Small hamlets where there is one church and a bunch of people and a mayor. Not much else. Now in most cases of towns, we have cultural centers of commerce. Large cities and towns with many different sections and you have somehting more akin to Rome, Greece, or the enlightenment period of Europe. These are more likely to have athiests. I mean, you have a good life now, you don't suffer like Joe farmer. What does believing in gods do for you? You die and go to heaven? you are in heaven. You are an artist who is just rolling in the Gold. You are a merchant who is extremely wealthy. You are a duke with a castle. Why believe in gods when you have wizards who can do much of the same things a cleric can. But even better. Why believe in gods when you have arcane magic. Heck, you can just research it up. Find a scroll and read it. And viola anybody can do arcane magic. A cleric can live in a church his entire life and never be given the divine blessing.

But seriously. Other than the gods coming down and talking to people and such, and showing off their power. There will always be atheists, and even then they will just go. "Wow. That was one powerful wizard."

Anybody else find it wierd that there is a god of the Arcane? It just seems... wierd.
Cleric: I wish to have the divine blessing!
Wee Jas(Or other such god): ummm... I'm more sort of into the Arcane thing.. ya know?

JaronK
2007-04-21, 02:16 AM
I think Atheists could exist if they were talking about a god like the Christian one... an omnimax being that knows all, has infinite power, etc. And they'd be right.

Such people would be defining the other "gods" as simply beings of great power who draw power from worship and siphon power to their followers. They're just a step up from epic wizards, who are a step up from your common adept, who are a step up from a commoner, etc.

Since those "gods" are really just the big fish in the pool, they're not really special and in their own catagory.

JaronK

Falconsflight
2007-04-21, 05:06 AM
My freind, Who is knows about gods and demons in DnD pretty well, says that there are technically no gods in DnD, since each and every one of those beings can be killed. Sorry, A god shouldn't be killable.

Aquillion
2007-04-21, 06:05 AM
Lets return to Person Man's main point. Considering the staggering number of theists in this world, the number of strong atheists (people believing strongly in the non-existence of divine beings) in most DnD settings would be extremely small.It could be taken the other way, though, to say that the prevalence of magic in the D&D universe makes it easier to deny divinity. What is a god, after all, if you are mindful of him? If being able to cast level 9 spells doesn't make you a god, why would being able to cast them really often and quickly? Oh, wow, they automatically roll a 20 on anything they attempt--so what? That's, at most, a +20 skill bonus. Impressive, but hardly divine. Got high DR? So does a Terrasque. Don't age or die unless someone powerful kills you? Yawn, you and every half-baked lich out there. The school of magic down the road grants spells, the 5-cent wand of Cure Light Wounds that the local artificer turns out by the dozen can heal in the hands of a bard or anyone with decent UMD, and a wizard or psionic can bring back the dead if they really want to. Creating your own plane is just a matter of being able to manifest Genesis.

It's hardly a stretch to say that the philosophically-minded in the D&D world could go over the list of gods available, checking off each, until they finally throw up their hands and realize that there's nothing worth calling "divine" among them.

Matthew
2007-04-21, 07:59 AM
My freind, Who is knows about gods and demons in DnD pretty well, says that there are technically no gods in DnD, since each and every one of those beings can be killed. Sorry, A god shouldn't be killable.
That's a lengthy and debatable point of view. After all, can Ao be killed?

Irenaeus
2007-04-21, 08:47 AM
Sorry, A god shouldn't be killable.

Be aware that you just demoted a plethora of historical pantheons of gods.