challenge rating advice

[Ettina]

OK, I'm designing a campaign, and I'm wondering if you could tell me, based on the final boss and his right-hand man, what would be an appropriate CR for this campaign.

The final boss is a level 17 wizard, specialized in enchantment, and intended to be played intelligently and ruthlessly with a focus on bending the player's will to serve him or else incapacitating them so they can't pose him any further threat. If the PCs have attracted too much attention and he has been able to get a good idea of their skills, he will tailor his fight specifically to beat them.

His right-hand man is a level 8 ex-paladin/level 7 blackguard (total character level 15), with a focus on being a tanky martial character. He's not nearly as strategically-oriented, but he follows the orders of the final boss unquestioningly. The PCs will probably have multiple opportunities to fight this guy alone, but if they don't beat him and they draw too much attention, he will join the fight with the final boss.

[atemu1234]

When there's more than a 1 level gap and less than a 5 level gap, the EL for this should be around Highest CR +1, in this case, around 18. Those dead levels, tho...

[Ettina]

When there's more than a 1 level gap and less than a 5 level gap, the EL for this should be around Highest CR +1, in this case, around 18. Those dead levels, tho...

Thanks.

For a blackguard, ex-paladin levels aren't dead levels. A blackguard gets extra perks for having a certain number of ex-paladin levels. (The coolest is getting the lay on hands power, which blackguards don't normally get.) Not as much as you'd get if you kept your paladin skills, of course, but still useful.

[Urpriest]

Campaigns don't have CRs. I'm assuming what you're actually asking is what level the PCs should be when they fight these guys?

As mentioned, a CR 17 creature with a CR 15 companion gives an EL of 18. EL 18 is appropriate as a normal encounter for an 18th level party, but if you want it to be a boss fight you probably want the party to be lower level. For the final boss of a campaign, party level +4 is usually appropriate, so the party should be 14th level when they fight these two, provided they fight them together.

That said, you're approaching this backwards. The wizard and blackguard here are core races, with just class levels. You can make them any level you want, down to the minimum that someone can be a blackguard. You need some other constraint, like the monsters or what level the players want to play at, to fix the ending level of the campaign, and then you can adjust the level of your boss appropriately.

[Nibbens]

Long story short, read this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit?pli=1) guide. I live and die by the information on this guide now.

Also, if your PCs are going to their final battle, there's no reason why you couldn't crank up the challenge even higher than +4. Looking ahead at the RotRL AP they're supposed to be level 16 or 17 fighting a CR22 encounter. That's a APL+5 or +6! and this is a published adventure path. lol.

[Ettina]

That said, you're approaching this backwards. The wizard and blackguard here are core races, with just class levels. You can make them any level you want, down to the minimum that someone can be a blackguard. You need some other constraint, like the monsters or what level the players want to play at, to fix the ending level of the campaign, and then you can adjust the level of your boss appropriately.

The wizard needs to cast a 9th level spell for story reasons, so he has to be at least level 17.

[Urpriest]

The wizard needs to cast a 9th level spell for story reasons, so he has to be at least level 17.

That's fair. :smallwink:

Then yeah, the PCs should end the campaign somewhere between level 12 and level 14.

[Afgncaap5]

The wizard needs to cast a 9th level spell for story reasons, so he has to be at least level 17.

I think that's the way to go, but if for some reason the campaign needed to wrap up sooner you could always have a plot-based artifact or ritual (performable only when the stars are right or something) that could allow an effect similar to a higher level spell.

Having said that, a campaign that ends around level 12-14 is nice, so I think you're setting it up well.

[Demidos]

Level 12...vs an intelligently played 17th level wizard? :smalleek:

An enchantment focus does ''weaken'' him, but this IS before mindblank would come online, so that's still pretty scary. An enchanter is usually expected to have a good number of minions. Even with suboptimal tactics, a straight up hold person mass followed up by some coup de graces would be deadly....

Toss In freezing glance or something similar, with INT in the 30s, well. That would be pretty rough.

[Story]

Disobedience is a 3rd level spell, so at least outright mind control shouldn't be too much of a problem. There are lots of other nasty enchantments (and even more nasty non-enchantment) spells though.