Dealing with swarms

[Barstro]

The party I'm currently in has (poorly) dealt with enough swarms that I think my character would waste time and money in finding a way to deal with them better. But I'm not sure what the possibilities are for how to deal with them.

We have (Level 5);
Paladin (melee)
Rogue/Bard (who knows?)
Inquisitor (ranged)
Shaman (support)

We are in a spot where we cannot really purchase anything, but I'd like some ideas on what we can do or get once we can spend money.

Thanks

[Extra Anchovies]

Swarms are awful, both for individual characters and for the game as a whole. Very few classes have ways to deal with them, and even fewer have effective, worth-the-resource-investment ways to deal with them. This leaves most classes completely unable to win a fight against a swarm. This is anti-fun. And swarms don't even make for cool theoretical fantasy encounters, unlike goblins, zombies, dragons, or pretty much any other non-swarm monsters. You never hear about a prince having to fight a lot of bees to rescue the princess. They mostly serve as area-denial effects for people without proper access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list, and they definitely shouldn't be thrown at a party without reliable AoE damage.

A Paladin, a Rogue/Bard, an Inquisitor, and a Shaman have barely anything that can even affect a swarm, let alone get rid of one without losing a party member, unless there are a bunch of blasting spells on the Shaman list that nobody's telling me about. Ask your DM to stop incorporating swarms into the game.

[Draco_Lord]

Personally, I'd go find a bottle of oil and a torch. Fire is a pretty classic way to deal with ground based swarms. Ones that fly are a bit harder, but a improvised Molotov Cocktail could work. Or maybe buy some potions or wands with some useful spells to deal with the issue.

[Barstro]

I take the view that the DM can throw whatever he wants at us (within the realm of logic) and we can just deal. While I admit that talking to him might be the best solution, I'm not going to take it.


Personally, I'd go find a bottle of oil and a torch. Fire is a pretty classic way to deal with ground based swarms. Ones that fly are a bit harder, but a improvised Molotov Cocktail could work. Or maybe buy some potions or wands with some useful spells to deal with the issue.

We do have a couple flasks (I either forget about them or else foolishly don't want to throw it into a swarm that is already surrounding my allies). Can a flaming arrow do anything?

[Segev]

Alchemist's fire and acid - really, any grenade-like splash weapon - should help a lot. Consider a wand of burning hands or the like for your rogue to UMD, as well. Wind Wall, if any of your spellcasters or you can get a wand, would also do wonders for just telling a swarm to stay on its side of the room.

...web could also have interesting effects.

[Draco_Lord]

For the Flame Arrow, had to go reread some rules, and basically the answer is dependent.


A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.

So if you are fighting Tiny Creatures your whole party can do something, just a bit slower. It is the Fine and Diminutive ones that will get you, in which case your arrow is useless. Because it is not so much the fire, as it is the fire burning in an area that will take care of the swarm.

[Yanisa]

Flasks times a million. Alchemist Fire, Acid, whatever, just splash damage flasks. Add that with a little bit of running around (swarms are generally not that speedy) and you can avoid damage while slowly taking the swarm down.

If you seriously want to invest, get a Swarmsuit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/containers-bags-boxes-more#TOC-Swarmsuit), because nothing says heroic battles as a bee keeper tossing around fire bombs.
But seriously, swarmsuits are cheap and protect a lot of damage, but it might be hard to utilize if you don't except swarms and suck in any battle without swarms (half movement speed is heavy).

[Geddy2112]

Fire is the classic go to for most swarming things, or some kind of AoE blast/splash to do 1.5x damage to them. Your shaman can prepare burning hands, which is a decent swarm defense for low levels. Hide from animals might work, but swarms are technically vermin so your DM might say otherwise. Wind wall is a quick and dirty defense but short lived.

[Uncle Pine]

This looks like a job for your Shaman:
- As swarms usually have incredibly low Fort saves, Stinking Cloud will effectively shut them down for plus 1d4+2 rounds. Remember that even though swarms don't need to roll to hit, nauseated creatures can't attack at all and can only make a single move action per round. 1d4+2 rounds is enough to either a swarm by throwing lit torches at it or flee.
- Call Lightning.
- Deep Slumber works similarly to Stinking Cloud, but targets Will and is only useful against swarms up to 10 HD that have an Intelligence score.
- Burning Hand, as simply as it may sound, is a spammable 1st level AoE spell that is really good at killing swarms. However, it's usually useless against any other kind of opponent, so buy a wand.

If all else fail, buy a (partially) charged wand of Fireball and call it a day.

[Hrugner]

web shelter (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/webShelter.html#web-shelter) for fine and diminutive swarms.
sleep (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/sleep.html#sleep) for swarms with an intelligence. It's HD not targets so it should work.
and stinking cloud mentioned above. Your shaman should be able to cast these if he can get out of the swarm and knew about them in advance. A scroll or two may be a good way to go.

[Telok]

Swarms are not difficult, you do not need magic to deal with them.

Torches do 1d3 per swing, lanterns do 1d4 splash (+50% damage from splash and area weapons), energy weapon enchantments do the energy damage even if the weapon damage is ignored. Water or oil can work against ground based swarms. Submersion in liquid, smoke, and wind work against flying swarms. Walking away and closing a door works pretty well too, completely stops flying swarms.

Most swarms are Int 0, they operate on instinct alone unless driven by magic. Either kill the mage or throw down some food and walk away.

If you absolutely must stock magic get the Feather Token, Fan (200), Pipes of the Sewers (1,150), or the low end Necklace of Fireballs (1,650).

[Ediwir]

Personally, I'd go find a bottle of oil and a torch. Fire is a pretty classic way to deal with ground based swarms. Ones that fly are a bit harder, but a improvised Molotov Cocktail could work. Or maybe buy some potions or wands with some useful spells to deal with the issue.

That's what i do when i find wasps in the yard. Burn the house down. With lemons. And fuel.

A more fantasy-based reaction might be going around with some Alchemist's Fire, or, if your DM allows it, even create some stronger versions to deal more damage.

Other than the items mentioned above, i think somewhere there's also a kind of armor that deals fire damage to whoever tries to grapple you - if someone can find it and the DM is ok with it, it might burn swarms too. I think it was in the Item Compendium from 3.5.

[Douglas]

Dungeonscape has a +1 weapon ability called Swarmstrike that makes any weapon fully effective against swarms. Pricy, but effective and no use limit.

[Extra Anchovies]

Dungeonscape has a +1 weapon ability called Swarmstrike that makes any weapon fully effective against swarms. Pricy, but effective and no use limit.

Hm. If there were a weapon crystal with the same effect, both my view of swarms in d20 and my mandatory equipment list would definitely change...

[Firechanter]

Swarms are awful, _especially_ in Pathfinder. The Paizo guys for some reason thought it was a great idea to upgun Swarms to a point where a party without serious AoE blasting is totally screwed.

Look at the PF "mosquito swarm":
CR3, so you'd think it shouldn't be too much trouble. But!
- These must be absurd turbo gnats on steroids, with a 40' Fly speed. For reference, _real_ mosquitos have a top speed of about 2km/h, so their Fly speed should rather be 5'; 10' tops.
- Also, they deal a ridiculous 2d6 Swarm damage. Yes that's right, whether you get stung by some gnats or walk into a Greatsword swung by an average human is all the same, according to Pathfinder.
- PLUS they also cause Bleed damage and transmit Disease.
- and to top it off, they have a whopping 31 Hitpoints. That's more than Ogre!

So PLEASE tell me how this is an appropriate encounter for a level 3 party.
Even _if_ they have a Wizard in the group, and supposing that he _has_ some blasting spells available, we're looking at something like 10 damage per spell _before_ the Save, which the Swarm will make about 30% of the time.
Alchemist fire deals what, 1d6 Fire damage, right? What group has _10_ Alchemist fires in store, just for the occasion they might be attacked by some mad gnats?
You can't even run away, because you probably have 30' land speed and get hampered by Difficult Terrain, whereas the swarm flies faster than you can walk.

My personal experience with this was even worse: we were only level 2, we did not have ANY AoE, our resources were already drained by several encounters on that day, AND the bloody swarm was waiting at the only possible resting place on the entire friggin island. The GM allowed us to blast them with gunpowder, but all that was pretty handwavy. Played straight by the rules we'd have perished.

Whoever wrote this abomination must be a huge idiot.

[Azoth]

200gp gets you the sleeves of many garments, which can turn into a swarm suit for when needed. That way you aren't lugging it around constantly and needlessly.

For dealing with them, there is another slightly evil method. Drugs are mean to use in general, but inhaled ones against a swarm are vicious. Inhaled drugs/poisons (drugs are cheaper by far, but poisons offer a wider array of ability damage) fill a 10ft cube when dispersed. For drugs, there are no saves against its effects including the ability damage it causes for exposure. Swarms aren't immune to ability damage. So you can easily paralyze a swarm or put it into a coma for about the cost of a vial of alchemist fire or two.

[Barstro]

200gp gets you the sleeves of many garments, which can turn into a swarm suit for when needed. That way you aren't lugging it around constantly...

I cannot express how much I like that idea. Now we just need to get them.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Sleeves of Many Garments don't convey the actual effects of the clothes they transform into, since the item is uses an Illusion effect.

[Barstro]

Sleeves of Many Garments don't convey the actual effects of the clothes they transform into, since the item is uses an Illusion effect.


The wearer of these sleeves can, when she slips them on, choose to transform her current garments into any other non-magical set of clothing. These new clothes fit her perfectly and are always clean and mended unless she specifically designates otherwise. When she removes the sleeves, her clothes revert to their original form. Emphasis added.

[Azoth]

They may be based on an illusion spell, but expressly cause your clothing to transform into the new set. So for all intents and purposes, they are what you changed them into.

Trust that this argument has existed since the item came about and there is no FAQ/errata that says otherwise. By RAW swarmsuit, cold weather, and other specialty gear that isn't magical can be had for a 200gp investment.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Actually, yes, it is only an illusion, not an actual transformation. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9sl0)

[ericgrau]

Try flasks of alchemist fire for everyone. I hear PFS loves to use swarms and this is the common solution.



Look at the PF "mosquito swarm":
CR3, so you'd think it shouldn't be too much trouble. But!
That is a poorly made monster. But it seems like they left the SRD swarms alone. Those are pretty weak and don't require any DM coddling. Only alchemical items.

EDIT: Actually looking at rat swarms they downgraded them. They can be damaged by weapons, albeit at half damage, and they have slightly less hp. Same CR.

[Barstro]

Actually, yes, it is only an illusion, not an actual transformation. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9sl0)

Thank you for pointing that out.

It saddens me that there is such a ruling. While I consider the ruling to be more in the spirit of what the item does and actually is, RAW is unambiguously clear.

Paizo should have gone back and rewritten the description of the item. I also question how "The transformation changes only the appearance, including the feel, smell, and other sensory aspects" is anything other than transformation. If my clothing now looks, feels, smells, tastes, sounds just like a swarmsuit, then how is it not a swarmsuit? At any rate, I am lawful and will abide by this law.

[Kurald Galain]

Basically, fledgling adventurers quickly learn to carry alchemist fire to deal with swarms, just like how they quickly learn to carry a bludgeon and a cold iron weapon to deal with enemies that are resistant to their standard weapon.

Aside from that, not every encounter needs to be dealt with by killing it. If you find yourself facing a swarm that you're unable to defeat, you can go a long way by running away from it, hiding, throwing up an obscuring mist, and so forth. PCs are more intelligent than swarms, so they can get creative with that.

[Segev]

If my clothing now looks, feels, smells, tastes, sounds just like a swarmsuit, then how is it not a swarmsuit?

If you look at, touch, sniff, lick, or listen to it, it sounds convincing. When you your hand along the sleeve, you feel the texture of the sleeve against your arm. It isn't actually there, however. Anything that attacks it is attacking your flesh below, directly, with nothing in between. It just feels like what it's pretending to be to the one doing it. Even though their attack punctures it.

An illusory wall that was convincing to all senses would feel real if you touched it or even brushed against it. However, it wouldn't stop anybody from walking straight through it. They'd just feel themselves pushing against a wall for the brief period before they were through it.

[Barstro]

Try flasks of alchemist fire for everyone. I hear PFS loves to use swarms and this is the common solution.

How is alchemist fire damage dealt to a swarm (10x10)? By my reading, it would be throwing a flask at the grid intersection of the swarm, nothing gets a 1d6, all squares get 1 damage for a total of 4. Other readings could be just 1 damage. That seems pretty low for 20gp.

[Segev]

How is alchemist fire damage dealt to a swarm (10x10)? By my reading, it would be throwing a flask at the grid intersection of the swarm, nothing gets a 1d6, all squares get 1 damage for a total of 4. Other readings could be just 1 damage. That seems pretty low for 20gp.

Why would nothing get the 1d6? The swarm as a target. The fire does area damage.

If you prefer a "fluff" description, the rules for alchemist's fire are designed to emulate one target getting it spilled all over him and the splash targets getting light splatter. Against a swarm, the "light splatter" on mulitple "targets" is doing 1 point of damage to every individual critter in the swarm. Which amounts to 1d6 effective damage to the swarm itself.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I don't think the swarms you would be fighting would really care if it's an illusion effect; it may fool everybody else, but they're vermin, remember?

[Barstro]

Why would nothing get the 1d6? The swarm as a target. The fire does area damage.

If you prefer a "fluff" description, the rules for alchemist's fire are designed to emulate one target getting it spilled all over him and the splash targets getting light splatter. Against a swarm, the "light splatter" on mulitple "targets" is doing 1 point of damage to every individual critter in the swarm. Which amounts to 1d6 effective damage to the swarm itself.

Nobody would get the 1d6 because there is no actual target. I'm pretty sure (based only on logic, not actually reading) that you cannot target a swarm with a single target ray. By that same vein, there is no actual target in a swarm upon which to break the flask. The flask would still be just breaking against the ground. But, this is trying to mix "real world physics" with d20.

I agree with your conclusion, I was just hoping for an actual RAW ruling. I'm sure it's enough to convince my DM of how things should actually be.

[Barstro]

I don't think the swarms you would be fighting would really care if it's an illusion effect; it may fool everybody else, but they're vermin, remember?

I do not disagree. But, a swarmsuit works akin to a beekeeper's hat; very small netting that the mindless creatures cannot penetrate. If the illusion still makes them feel as if they cannot penetrate, then what allows them to actually do damage?

Again, more of a hypothetical question. I agree that the ruling on the sleeves would allow the swarm to do damage.

[Kurald Galain]

I agree with your conclusion, I was just hoping for an actual RAW ruling. I'm sure it's enough to convince my DM of how things should actually be.

By the rules on the swarm subtype, "A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons". So yes, they are explicitly vulnerable to alchemist fire.

[Segev]

RAW... the swarm is the target. As strange as it sounds, the RAW support the flask breaking upon "hitting" it. Fluff-wise, I'm sure you can justify it a number of ways. But I'm pretty sure the RAW support a flask of alchemist's fire applying its full damage to a swarm, because it can target the swarm and is not a "single target spell."

[Segev]

I do not disagree. But, a swarmsuit works akin to a beekeeper's hat; very small netting that the mindless creatures cannot penetrate. If the illusion still makes them feel as if they cannot penetrate, then what allows them to actually do damage?

Again, more of a hypothetical question. I agree that the ruling on the sleeves would allow the swarm to do damage.I don't think it explicitly makes them REALIZE they can't penetrate it, and thus stops them from trying. All it does is make it so that, when they try, they fail. Since they won't fail when they try with this illusory swarmsuit...

[Barstro]

By the rules on the swarm subtype, "A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons". So yes, they are explicitly vulnerable to alchemist fire.

Then what is the damage?
1d6 (x1.5) hit with splash weapon
(1d6+3)x(1.5) Hit with splash weapon for 1d6 plus three adjacent squares at 1 each?

[Segev]

I'd go with 1d6x1.5, as you're still hitting only the one target. If you hit a Huge creature with alchemist's fire, it doesn't take splash damage as well as primary damage, after all.