necrotic tumor clarifications

[Ettina]

So, necrotic tumor.


Necrotic Tumor
Latin
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 7, Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft. / level)
Target: Living creature with necrotic cyst
Duration: One day / level or permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: No

You cause the cyst of a subject already harboring a necrotic cyst (see spell of the same name) to envelop a portion of the victim’s brain. If the subject succeeds on his saving throw (the subject’s cyst-derived saving throw penalty against effects from the school of necromancy applies), you may still influence him by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The instruction must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act automatically negates the instruction. The instructed course of activity can continue for the entire duration. If the instructed activity can be completed in a shorter time, the instruction ends when the subject finishes what he was asked to do. You can instead specify conditions that trigger a special activity during the duration. If the condition is not met before the spell expires, the activity is not performed.
If the subject fails his saving throw, the cyst envelops the larger portion of the subject’s higher brain, and you gain complete control of the actions of the subject permanently. You do not know what the subject is experiencing and share no special link with him. If a common language is shared, you can force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of his abilities. If no common language is shared, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here”, “Go there”, “Fight”, and “Stand Still”. A subject may resist this control, but the presence of his necrotic tumor on his brain stem ensures their loyalty. Protection from evil or a similar spell does not protect the subject from following your commands – the tumor is already inside him.
Focus: Caster must possess a mother cyst (see page 28 LM). (LM)

If they failed their saving throw, how should I roleplay them? The comment that they can resist implies they are aware, but it doesn't give them any saving throws to resist, like Dominate Person does. In addition, there is no exception for self-destructive commands (there is for the suggestion if they make their saving throw, but not for the control of someone who failed the throw). So you can order them to kill themselves and they can't resist.

My questions are:

a) Can the caster change their beliefs, or only their actions?

b) Do they have normal awareness? Can they think and feel normally?

c) Can the caster let them act freely (or mostly freely) by giving them few or no orders? For example, if the caster says "you are free to go and do what you want, but don't attack me or tell anyone that you're under my control", will they act normally with the exception of not attacking the caster or talking about the necrotic tumor?

d) Can someone else with a mother cyst take over a person affected by necrotic tumor by simply giving them commands, or do they only obey the original caster? Do they have to be high enough level to cast necrotic tumor themselves (ie, able to cast 7th level spells)? Can they wrest control with necrotic tumor or necrotic dominate (which works like dominate person)?

e) How easy is it for others to spot the effects? It doesn't state a specific DC. Should I use the general rule of DC 25 Sense Motive check? Or would it vary depending on how the caster exercises his control?

f) If the subject who failed their throw couldn't see the caster casting, and has not yet been given any orders, do they realize anything has happened? Do they feel pain or sense some change in their mind, or are they completely unaware of it?

g) Does the DC 20 Heal check to remove a necrotic cyst still apply, or is it irreversible or harder to remove? Would you need to be able to heal vile damage to revert the cyst to its original size, as in necrotic bloat (http://eternal-madness.wikispaces.com/Necrotic+Bloat)?

[Segev]

So, necrotic tumor.
a) Can the caster change their beliefs, or only their actions?This is likely where "they can resist" comes in. You compel their behavior, not their thoughts. RP-wise, if you phrase it so the suggestion-effect would work, I'd probably say they don't notice, but if they do notice, you can't just blatantly overwrite their mind. Not that it matters; they still obey.


b) Do they have normal awareness? Can they think and feel normally?Yes.


c) Can the caster let them act freely (or mostly freely) by giving them few or no orders? For example, if the caster says "you are free to go and do what you want, but don't attack me or tell anyone that you're under my control", will they act normally with the exception of not attacking the caster or talking about the necrotic tumor?I don't see why not.


d) Can someone else with a mother cyst take over a person affected by necrotic tumor by simply giving them commands, or do they only obey the original caster? Do they have to be high enough level to cast necrotic tumor themselves (ie, able to cast 7th level spells)? Can they wrest control with necrotic tumor or necrotic dominate (which works like dominate person)?Anybody with a Mother Cyst who can cast Necrotic Tumor can cast it on anybody who has a Necrotic Cyst. This includes other casters' victims of Necrotic Tumor. Only the caster of Necrotic Tumor has this command over the victim, so a second Mother Cyst bearer would need to also cast the spell to assert control.


e) How easy is it for others to spot the effects? It doesn't state a specific DC. Should I use the general rule of DC 25 Sense Motive check? Or would it vary depending on how the caster exercises his control?The DC 25 sense motive check should do it for anything short of "act as you wish." Even then, it might work, sensing the unease the victim feels at knowing he could be compelled at any time.


f) If the subject who failed their throw couldn't see the caster casting, and has not yet been given any orders, do they realize anything has happened? Do they feel pain or sense some change in their mind, or are they completely unaware of it?This is a more general question: do you know if you just made/failed a saving throw? I do not recall the answer to this off the top of my head.


g) Does the DC 20 Heal check to remove a necrotic cyst still apply, or is it irreversible or harder to remove? Would you need to be able to heal vile damage to revert the cyst to its original size, as in necrotic bloat (http://eternal-madness.wikispaces.com/Necrotic+Bloat)?It doesn't say so, but interestingly, it also doesn't say that removing the Necrotic Cyst frees them from your control. So it would also have to be Dispelled.

[Ettina]

It doesn't say so, but interestingly, it also doesn't say that removing the Necrotic Cyst frees them from your control. So it would also have to be Dispelled.

Interesting.

I suppose that could work fluff-wise - perhaps the person has both a necrotic cyst in the original location that acts as a spell focus for any necrotic spell, and a necrotic tumor in the brain that is only affected by the unique bond between it and its caster. The Heal check removes the original necrotic cyst, but leaves the necrotic tumor in place. However, the necrotic tumor does not act like a necrotic cyst - all it does is allow free mind control for one person.

[Ettina]

One more question - if they made their save, do they realize it? I mean, normally you know if you made a save, because you feel some sort of hostile force or something. But on a successful save, the person still gets affected by a suggestion, like the suggestion spell. So it seems like they might not realize what just happened.

[Segev]

One more question - if they made their save, do they realize it? I mean, normally you know if you made a save, because you feel some sort of hostile force or something. But on a successful save, the person still gets affected by a suggestion, like the suggestion spell. So it seems like they might not realize what just happened.

I think the RAW state that they know...but also know they made their save. So they probably aren't aware of the suggestion effect.

[Necroticplague]

My questions are:

a) Can the caster change their beliefs, or only their actions?

b) Do they have normal awareness? Can they think and feel normally?

c) Can the caster let them act freely (or mostly freely) by giving them few or no orders? For example, if the caster says "you are free to go and do what you want, but don't attack me or tell anyone that you're under my control", will they act normally with the exception of not attacking the caster or talking about the necrotic tumor?

d) Can someone else with a mother cyst take over a person affected by necrotic tumor by simply giving them commands, or do they only obey the original caster? Do they have to be high enough level to cast necrotic tumor themselves (ie, able to cast 7th level spells)? Can they wrest control with necrotic tumor or necrotic dominate (which works like dominate person)?

e) How easy is it for others to spot the effects? It doesn't state a specific DC. Should I use the general rule of DC 25 Sense Motive check? Or would it vary depending on how the caster exercises his control?

f) If the subject who failed their throw couldn't see the caster casting, and has not yet been given any orders, do they realize anything has happened? Do they feel pain or sense some change in their mind, or are they completely unaware of it?

g) Does the DC 20 Heal check to remove a necrotic cyst still apply, or is it irreversible or harder to remove? Would you need to be able to heal vile damage to revert the cyst to its original size, as in necrotic bloat (http://eternal-madness.wikispaces.com/Necrotic+Bloat)?

A)Only their actions. Necrotic Tumor lacks the [Mind-effecting], so it has no ability to actually influence their thoughts. You could force them to act against their beliefs, but not have any ability to actually change them.

B)Sure, why wouldn't they?

C)Sure. That seems pretty reasonable and well within the scope of both them failing the save, and them succeeding it.

D)They only obey the person who cast Necrotic Tumor on them. Now, another person who could cast a similar spell could try and wrestle control away, but this would be an opposed CHA check. A similar spell would be anything else that also controls actions (i.e, dominate person, another necrotic tumor, necrotic dominate).

E)Well, it's a Permanent effect, so forms of arcane sight that allow you to see the school would notice the powerful Necromancery on the person (which in turn would allow for a Spellcraft to identify it). I'd probably go with the default 'realize someone's under foreign control' when they are acting not of their own will, but this alone would not identify Necrotic Tumor, Necrotic Domination, or Dominate Person apart, just lets you know SOMETHING's up.

F)Nope. You only notice something if you succeed the save. Of course, they'll probably notice something is up when their body suddenly acts in ways they don't want, but up until orders are given, they aren't gonna notice the brain cancer. Somewhat realistic, plenty of brain diseases can just lie there, with the victim unaware until symptoms start showing.

G)The only way the cyst is involved is that it's required to target the character. After that point, the Tumor and Cyst are separate spells. You could remove the cyst as normal, but this would not effect the Tumor. however, since Tumor is Permanent, not Instantaneous, that means you could Dispell, Disjoin, or similar to it.

EDIT:Based on the two part of information associated with this (succeeding saves=feels kinda funny [exact words "a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack"], suceeding save leaves you basically under Suggestion). I would have to say it acts such that when you first cast it, they feel kinda odd for a moment. But then, when the command Suggested comes into effect, they act on it without entirely realizing why they're doing it (thus, why it has to be reasonable). It's just some minor impulse they act on.

As for the part about resisting without a saving throw, I think that means that while they have to do what you say, they are clear to interpret orders how they please, so they're free to be those annoying people who do the exact word of what you tell them while completely ignoring intent.

[Segev]

As for the part about resisting without a saving throw, I think that means that while they have to do what you say, they are clear to interpret orders how they please, so they're free to be those annoying people who do the exact word of what you tell them while completely ignoring intent.

I can't quite agree, here. The spell says it "ensures their loyalty," which implies that "creative" interpretations of orders to betray the intent are not possible.

I suspect "resist" might be more cosmetic. "I can't stop myself! Get away, friends!" and that kind of thing, if ordered to do something harmful without even implied orders to do it clandestinely, for example.

If you're familiar with Girl Genius, think of this scene (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040324) and the reasons behind it. (If you're not, go to the beginning and archive binge; it's an excellent story.)

[Ettina]

I can't quite agree, here. The spell says it "ensures their loyalty," which implies that "creative" interpretations of orders to betray the intent are not possible.

I suspect "resist" might be more cosmetic. "I can't stop myself! Get away, friends!" and that kind of thing, if ordered to do something harmful without even implied orders to do it clandestinely, for example.

I was thinking of having the BBEG's Dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon) be a paladin controlled by a Necrotic Tumor, and was thinking of having him do little hidden tricks to help the PCs (such as buying some protection from evil magic items, knowing they won't help him but hoping the PCs will make good use of them when he 'accidentally' leaves them where the PCs can find them). Problem is, I also want him to be forced into becoming a blackguard, and I doubt the necrotic tumor would affect his alignment. So I'm thinking the BBEG uses more mundane manipulation as well, forcing this guy to make sadistic choices ('kill this innocent child you care about, or I'll make you torture and kill her') until he's a broken man thinking only of revenge on the villain who destroyed his life.

[Segev]

If he could justify it in line with his standing orders and such, he can probably get away with that. It's important that this not be weasel-words, but rather broad gaps in his instructions or abuses of freedoms he genuinely is granted. He's compelled to obey as he believes his master wishes. But he's not compelled to do NOTHING except what his master orders. Nor to pursue goals his master does not set for him (even if he thinks his master wants them pursued). Don't let him play literal genie, but have him look for every liberty he can take.



As for corrupting him... huh. There's a really cheesy way to do it, actually. Order the paladin to summon Pazuzu and make a wish. Do this repeatedly. The BBEG gets several wishes, and by the end, the ex-paladin's CE.

From a less cheesy standpoint, recall that a paladin compelled to perform an evil deed still loses his powers. He just has the ability to regain them through Atonement (whereas willingly committing evil acts denies him this privilege). Because the BBEG doubtless doesn't want a fighter with far fewer feats than he should have as his Dragon, he should be wary of willy-nilly ordering evil deeds performed by Mr. Paladin. Instead, he should start by setting him tasks which he leaves the paladin freedom to achieve without committing evil, if possible. The ensured loyalty means he can't fully betray the intent of the ordered mission, but he can have more freedom to find a way to do it without being personally evil.

Eventually, that won't be an option, and the paladin will lose his powers. Here's where your own RP challenge as a writer and DM will come into play: in spite of being nothing more than a full BAB, the ex-paladin needs to be competent in performing the now-compelled evil tasks. Perhaps, at first, he even tries to hide from his master that he's lost his powers. He rightfully reasons that his master will stop giving him leeway to risk failure by trying to do things "good" if his master knows it won't preserve his minion's powers. But eventually, it will be discovered, and his master will stop granting him leave to find less efficient ways. And the ex-paladin should still be exceptionally dangerous, if only because he's that good at planning and executing missions.

To actually change his alignment, he'll have to have choices. Have the BBEG not be an entirely bad boss. Give rewards for success. Rewards which may even be more or less innocuous from a moral standpoint. Morally questionable rewards should start becoming more common when he's lost his powers. Perhaps, in a fit of "good cheer" at a particular success, he will order the ex-paladin to indulge in the illicit reward. The ex-paladin's conscience will balk, but he IS compelled, and the reward should be pleasant in and of itself. It should NOT be something he would balk at because he finds it horrific, but rather something he probably would be tempted to do anyway and have to resist.

Compelling him gives him, thus, permission, because it isn't his fault he's doing something he wanted to do but knew was wrong. Sex is an obvious one, but there's also, possibly, some way of soothing a chronic pain that is not righteous (a highly illicit drug?). Heck, ordering him to do recreational drugs as a "reward" until he's addicted, then waiting juuuuust long enough to order him to do them again that his withdrawl symptoms will make him think, "maybe I should..." on his own will start things along.

Get him to the point where he is, even if he's not entirely willing, on some level looking forward to the reward because he's compelled to indulge and thus cannot be blamed for it.

The next step is to delay it. Make him realize he wants it. Then, at some point, tell him he "may" go enjoy the reward. If he resists, that's fine. Let him. Just order him next time. Wait for a chance to forbid him the reward, then later lift the forbiddance.

Finally, when it's clear he's resisting despite having permission - when it's clear he WANTS to but is fighting that urge - start telling him flat-out thta his reward is you ordering him to do it.

[Ettina]

As for corrupting him... huh. There's a really cheesy way to do it, actually. Order the paladin to summon Pazuzu and make a wish. Do this repeatedly. The BBEG gets several wishes, and by the end, the ex-paladin's CE.

Oh, this gives me a neat idea, actually. Reading Pazuzu's description, it sounds like he'd know full well that the paladin is being compelled and the wishes he's asking for aren't his own. So what if he decides to pull a double-cross on the BBEG? Grant the BBEG's wishes, but secretly, he also grants the paladin's real wish - to destroy the BBEG and make him suffer. He doesn't free the paladin, of course, because this situation is good corruption-potential, but he does set in motion events leading to the PCs coming to destroy the BBEG. Could be an interesting twist.

Though I like your non-cheesy advice too. Hmm, can I combine them in some neat way? I'll have to think it over.

[goto124]

Sex is an obvious one, but there's also, possibly, some way of soothing a chronic pain that is not righteous (a highly illicit drug?). Heck, ordering him to do recreational drugs as a "reward" until he's addicted, then waiting juuuuust long enough to order him to do them again that his withdrawl symptoms will make him think, "maybe I should..." on his own will start things along.

I personally recommend the drugs one, because the sex one kind of labels sex as evil, which can come off as really weird to your players (when they find out about it).

With drugs, you can play out the addiction thing. With sex it's potentially creepy. Check that your players don't have a family member who got addicted to drugs or something though.