Making parrying part of AC

[Feint's End]

Any suggestions on how to do this in a balanced fashion? In my current campaign I'd like to add more parrying to the mix (especially for faster characters) and thought about different ways of implementing that.

Sadly I haven't come up with a balanced way of doing it yet so I wanted to ask if anyone has.

Edit: I just was thinking of reducing the ac bonus of armor and adding a bit of damage reduction instead. Then the ac would generally be lower ... then just allow the to hit attribute to be added to ac. What does the playground think? Dexterity could be limited by max dexterity again.

[Rebel7284]

Parrying is already one way to describe AC. Especially if you are using Combat Expertise.

Remember, a miss doesn't have to be a miss. It can be a glancing blow that slides off the armor, a parry, a shield block, etc.

[Feint's End]

Parrying is already one way to describe AC. Especially if you are using Combat Expertise.

Remember, a miss doesn't have to be a miss. It can be a glancing blow that slides off the armor, a parry, a shield block, etc.

I agree but I want to make it a major part of ac (and lots of players don't want to use combat expertise).

I also like to describe what exactly saved a player from an attack.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Use the "Armor as DR" variant and add 1/2 BAB derived from class levels ought to work. You don't want to do racial hit die-based BAB, though-- monsters tend to have disproportionately high BAB for their CR.

[Segev]

Well, there are two things to think about:

1) Do you want it to be something people must invest in to be able to do?

2) Do you want it to do something different than what other AC methods usually do?


If "no," then you can just fluff your descriptions of misses. They didn't hit the guy with a sword? He parried. There you go.

If "yes," then consider that Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively already reflect this to some degree. Iff they invest in it, it should increase their AC over what they could get without investing in it.

There are a couple Iron Heart and Diamond Mind maneuvers that allow you to do something with your to-hit roll to improve or replace your AC, as well; they're a form of parrying.

[Extra Anchovies]

Replace AC with a defense roll (DMG p. 25). Now the players get to roll a die when defending.

Alternately, give players the option to spend an attack of opportunity 1/round to attempt to block an attack by making an attack roll of their own; if their result is greater than that of the attack aimed at them, the attack is blocked. Or make them spend a feat on it but let them use it however many times per round as long as they still have an attack of opportunity to spend it on.

[SVamp]

I agree but I want to make it a major part of ac (and lots of players don't want to use combat expertise).

I also like to describe what exactly saved a player from an attack.

One radical but interesting solution: Rolemaster's Arms Law, (can be had for free from their website as part of beta testing new version) and just adapt it for D20. heck It originally WAS meant to just replace D&D combat.

In that system declaring that you use, say, only half of your attack bonus to attack and the rest to parry is a very big part of staying alive, and armour stops you from getting very dead when you do get hit.

example from the system, medium (solid) hit from a hand axe:

Vs cloth: 14 hit points + (average roll on crush crit table) "blow to foe's forearm. -10 to all Foe's next actions. Foe is stunned next round"

Vs plate: 7 hit points, glancing blow

Some results are very funny. say your enemy didn't parry at all and got hit twice as hard... Or actually more than twice as hard. Anyway...

"Neck strike shatters bone and severs an artery. Foe cannot breathe and is inactive for 12 rounds. The poor fool then expires."

"Foe's upper head hit. Not wearing a helmet, he is in a coma for..."

You get the idea :)

Anyway sorry for the tangent, been reading the books lately and amusing myself with the crits :)

[Geddy2112]

There already is a parrying mechanic for swashbucklers, monks can get crane style, etc. For everybody else, you can fight defensively/combat expertise. Using your weapon to defend yourself was not much of a concept when you had armor+shield to protect you-using multiple attacks and full BAB means you are only using your weapon to hit the opponent. Fighting defensively would possibly involve parrying or at least keeping your weapon on guard, while total defense means using everything you have to stop an attack.

[Surpriser]

Another possibility would be to allow characters to use one more of their attacks for parrying. Basically, when you make a full attack, you would declare which of your attacks you want to take and all others can be used and the result taken instead of your AC if a foe attacks you during the next round.

[Feint's End]

I've seen fighting defensively, etc quite often but even though I don't have a problem with these techniques they don't reflect what I want to have and also are something very few will ever do (not what I want to achieve).

On the other hand counter rolls ala swashbuckler would slow down combat too much so I was looking for and easy way overall to increase AC. I like the idea with bab for example but I'm not sure if it should be dependant on that.

[Segev]

Again, is there a reason you can't just fluff standard AC?

What is it you're trying to represent that is not represented by that?

[Flickerdart]

There's a rarely mentioned variant in UA called "players roll all the dice" which might be useful for you - in it, attack rolls are fixed at 10 and the defender rolls for their AC instead of having a flat base of 10, much like a saving throw.

[paranoidbox]

There's a rarely mentioned variant in UA called "players roll all the dice" which might be useful for you - in it, attack rolls are fixed at 10 and the defender rolls for their AC instead of having a flat base of 10, much like a saving throw.

I love the "Players roll all the dice" variant, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet. It sounds like a lot of fun!

It's probably not entirely what the OP is asking for though, as it doesn't really boost AC through an action. (Although I'm not sure what the OP is asking for at this point.)

[ace rooster]

Again, is there a reason you can't just fluff standard AC?

What is it you're trying to represent that is not represented by that?

Because in most standard fluff an epic fighter with an artifact sword should be better at parrying than a commoner armed with a fish. Combat experties does not quite cover it for me, at least in part because 3 out of 4 people are too stupid to learn it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

On the other hand counter rolls ala swashbuckler would slow down combat too much so I was looking for and easy way overall to increase AC. I like the idea with bab for example but I'm not sure if it should be dependant on that.
You don't want to boost AC too much, otherwise the balance tilts in favor of frequent misses-- not fun when you already have lots of HP to get through before they can see any meaningful effect from their attacks. That's why I'd combo the AC bonus with something like the Armor as DR variant I mentioned, which itself reduces AC.

As for BAB specifically... it's a direct measure of your martial skill. Classes/characters who should be good at fighting have, if nothing else, high BAB. What could be more fitting?

[Tvtyrant]

What about gaining DR equal to your classes BaB? So a full BaB character gets up to DR 20/-, and can apply that to any damage that requires an attack roll, including energy and force damage. Edit: you can tie in shields by adding the shield materials hardness and the AC bonus from the shield to your DR.

[Seerow]

I've seen fighting defensively, etc quite often but even though I don't have a problem with these techniques they don't reflect what I want to have and also are something very few will ever do (not what I want to achieve).

On the other hand counter rolls ala swashbuckler would slow down combat too much so I was looking for and easy way overall to increase AC. I like the idea with bab for example but I'm not sure if it should be dependant on that.

So you want something fast and easy to resolve, but interactive, and without the offensive penalty that discourages most people from the existing defensive options, while still being balanced.... with no resource investment (ie everyone has it)?

Just making sure I have all of your requirements correct. Given all of that I would probably do something like:

3.5 style dodge is a free effect everybody gets. Call it active defense or focused defense or something instead of dodge, and have it require a weapon wielded (or have improved unarmed strike). You declare one opponent to be your dodge target, and gain a passive +1 bonus to AC against that target. You may change your active defense target as a free action on your round.

Once per round, when your active defense target attacks you, you may spend an attack of opportunity to gain a +(3-5) parry bonus to your armor class against that attack. You must declare the use of your parry before the result of the attack is announced.



Relatively simple, balanced by the fact that if you have multiple opponents, trading off targets can get around the active defense, and really easy to write a line of homebrew feats that slot in with the new rule. Off the top of my head:
-Feat that requires Combat Reflexes, lets you make additional parries
-Feat that lets you change active defense target as an immediate action
-Feat that lets you have multiple active defense targets
-Feat that increases the benefit from your parry
-Feat that lets you take an attack after a parry successfully stops an attack

[Ettina]

I think both parrying and dodging are part of the Dex bonus to AC.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just making sure I have all of your requirements correct. Given all of that I would probably do something like:
Absolutely beautiful. Well done, sir.

[Hrugner]

You can treat HP as the character's energy spent on defensive maneuvering and only treat sub 0 damage as blood drawn. That would make all descriptions of combat cinematic and all kills a hard won fatal blow. You could also let crits do damage that penetrated to that sub 0 hit point reserve allowing for a bunch of critical hits to be fatal.

It would play almost the same as normal D&D but seem more like active defense was being used. I think this may be how the d20 starwars books worked but I'm not sure.

[ace rooster]

You can treat HP as the character's energy spent on defensive maneuvering and only treat sub 0 damage as blood drawn. That would make all descriptions of combat cinematic and all kills a hard won fatal blow. You could also let crits do damage that penetrated to that sub 0 hit point reserve allowing for a bunch of critical hits to be fatal.

It would play almost the same as normal D&D but seem more like active defense was being used. I think this may be how the d20 starwars books worked but I'm not sure.

Sort of works, but then why is it tied to con?

I have been thinking of doing a 'hero points' variant for some time, but it requires such a huge reworking that I didn't think it was worth it. Hero points being a universal defense able to throw off status effects would change the game considerably, and I think for the better. Additionally, feats requiring hero points to activate would make sense, and mean that you would actually have a way to balance feats. It would require a different way of tracking what happens when you actually hit, as well as rebuilding most opponents (who are not heros, and hence often have no hero points).

At that point you might as well be playing a different game.

[lsfreak]

Sort of works, but then why is it tied to con?

Because parrying, blocking, voiding, and taking glancing hits is tiring. HP basically becomes your exhaustion level until you have no more energy left to lethal hits. I think it works better with a vitality/wounds system, myself, but I prefer that explanation either way, even if it gets a bit wonky when you realize it has to account for fireballs and acid breaths too.

[Sian]

Armor as AC (as per UA p112), + Base Reflex save to AC up to DexMod/Round, chosen before roll is made

[martixy]

Hm... how about a homebrew feat called

Parry:
[Prereq: Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +9]
You can activate this feat at the beginning of your turn.
While this feat is active enemies who strike you in melee provoke an attack of opportunity from you. This attack does not damage the enemy, instead you roll an opposed attack roll. If you match or exceed the opposed roll, the enemy attack misses. You must choose to use this action before the enemy attack is rolled.

Inspired by Robilar's Gambit and I tried to word it to prevent abuse(incl. using the two together).

Not entirely what you're looking for but an interesting idea I think I'll include in my home-brew.

[Rizban]

Parry - basic combat action (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?136100) is something a created a long time ago. I'd probably do it differently if I was making it now, but it was always a decent option that didn't seem to slow the game down too much when we used it around the table. It seemed to make the players happy when we used it, but it didn't really get used more than any of the other standard combat options.

[Thatwarforged]

Just making sure I have all of your requirements correct. Given all of that I would probably do something like:

I really liked the idea and did some brainstorming can't claim my writing is that great or if I did your idea justice but here is my stab at it.

Parry Rules
Passive Parrying: During your turn as a free action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 parry bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent replacing your old selection on your turn as a free action. This bonus last in till you change targets. Parry bonuses do not stack with other parry bonuses.
Active Parrying: Once per turn in reaction to a weapon attack made from your chosen parry target, you may expend an attack of opportunity to gain a bonus equal to your BAB plus one (Maximum +6) parry bonus to your Armor Class against that attack. You can do this only once per attack. This must be done before the results of the attack are read.
Parrying Special Quality: Some weapons have the Parrying Special Quality, any weapon that has the Parrying Quality give an additional +1 parry bonus to both Passive (Increasing it to +2) and Active parrying bonus but is still subject to Maximum bonus from Active Parrying. The weapons that have the Parrying Special quality are Dagger, Quarterstaff, Short Sword, Rapier, Bastard Sword, Nunchaku and all shields but tower. This bonus stacks with Improved Parry giving you a +3 to Passive Parrying.

Parry Feats
Improved Parry [Combat]
Prerequisites- BAB 6.
Effect- You parry bonus from your Passive Parrying improves to +2, also when you use Active Parrying the bonus maximum is +8.

Quicken Parry [Combat]
Prerequisites- BAB 1.
Effect- You may change one of your chosen opponent from Passive Parrying when it is not your turn as a immediate action. This may be in response of an attack but must be done before the results are read.

Extended Parry [Combat]
Prerequisites- BAB 4.
Effect- When you select a target for your Passive Parrying you may choose up to half your base attack bonus in targets instead of just one.

Riposte [Combat]
Prerequisites- Improved Parry, BAB 10.
Effect- Any time you use Active Parrying, to parry an attack and you successfully stop the attack you may take an immediate action to attack the attacker at your highest base attack bonus.

Extra Parry [Combat]
Prerequisites- Combat Reflexes
Effect- You may use the Active Parrying twice a turn, at base attack bonus six you may use it three times a turn and every four levels thereafter (10, 14 and 18) you may use it an additional time an encounter you are still limited to the number of attacks of opportunity you can spend in a turn.


Hey so this may work with tweaking and personal touches.

[Ashtagon]

Check out MOngoose's d20 Conan RPG for an example of how this has been implemented.

[Extra Anchovies]

Check out Mongoose's d20 Conan RPG for an example of how this has been implemented.

Oh, yes, this! Normally it's my job to relentlessly plug that system. Every character has two AC types, Dodge Defense and Parry Defense. When a character is attacked in melee, they can choose to Parry or Dodge. Dodge is used against all ranged attacks, but Parry can benefit from shields and it's a heavily melee-focused system, so they balance out. Armor provides DR but no AC bonuses (to compensate for all this DR, high-level characters have fewer hit points than in 3.5), and every class has scaling bonuses to Dodge and Parry defense that usually scale at different rates.

[Feint's End]

Oh, yes, this! Normally it's my job to relentlessly plug that system. Every character has two AC types, Dodge Defense and Parry Defense. When a character is attacked in melee, they can choose to Parry or Dodge. Dodge is used against all ranged attacks, but Parry can benefit from shields and it's a heavily melee-focused system, so they balance out. Armor provides DR but no AC bonuses (to compensate for all this DR, high-level characters have fewer hit points than in 3.5), and every class has scaling bonuses to Dodge and Parry defense that usually scale at different rates.

Hmm gonna take a look at this. It might be a starting point of where I want to get to. Are there different editions/ which book should I look at?

Thank you all for the big feedback I'm getting. I'm reading all comments very carefully and trying to figure out what exactly I want to implement. I'm still kind of for staying away from using any kind of counter rolls because they'd slow the system down by too large a margin in my eyes but if I find a really good way of doing that I'd still consider it.

@ Seerow: I really like the baseline of your concept. I'm kind of against the whole idea of it taking up attacks of opportunity (unless I give combat reflexes to everyone for free) and it being only really useable against one opponent. But the core concept is really awesome and gave me some ideas.

@Rizban: This system is pretty great albeit maybe not exactly what I'm looking for. I have to read through it in detail though but thanks for posting it up here. Didn't know about it before.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hmm gonna take a look at this. It might be a starting point of where I want to get to. Are there different editions/ which book should I look at?

I don't know if there are any big differences between the first and second editions of the Mongoose Conan RPG (they were printed three years apart), but there have been multiple Conan RPGs; this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan:_The_Roleplaying_Game) is the one in question. You only really need the core rulebook; almost all of the supplementary books are heavily tied to the setting.

The main difference between C:tRPG and 3.5 is the magic system, which is entirely reworked to be much less of an everyday thing. Instead of having a bunch of spells to toss around all day, only a few spells can be cast before having to A) rest for the day B) sacrifice a few people or C) do some really hard drugs. It's mostly useful for NPCs, who generally have more time to set up their spells and aren't always in combat situations, but magic-based player builds are still possible. Basic rules and combat aren't changed much from 3.5, though, so most nonmagical material from 3.5 could easily be added.