Sleepy Elf

[ChubbyRain]

So how does sleep interact with racial abilities like the Elves immunity to magical sleep.

As in, do you still ignore the HP of the elf or do you take it into account but the elf doesn't fall asleep and you go on to the next person.

Elf: 5 HP
Orc: 15 HP

Sleep Roll: 19

Option 1: 19 - 5 (elf doesn't fall asleep) = 14 - 15 = -1 = Orc doesn't fall asleep.

Option 2: 19 - 15 (orc) = 4 = Orc falls to sleep.

I have my opinion on this already and how I will run it in my games. However I was wondering other people's opinion on this and if there has been any official word.

My stance is that Option 2 is the way to go since the spell needs targets that can be put to sleep to work and it just doesn't work on elves.

[hymer]

It seems to me, from reading the text, that only unconscious potential targets are passed by. I'd rule that the spell's energy is just as much spent trying to put an elf to sleep and failing as it would be if that character was susceptible.

[Talderas]

I have my opinion on this already and how I will run it in my games. However I was wondering other people's opinion on this and if there has been any official word.

My stance is that Option 2 is the way to go since the spell needs targets that can be put to sleep to work and it just doesn't work on elves.

Creatures which are unaffected by the spell would not subtract dice from sleep. In the spell description it states unconscious creatures, undead, and creatures immune to charm are unaffected. Therefore, elves and half-elves are still affected which means you subtract their hitpoints from the total but they do not fall asleep due to fey ancestry. The orc would not be put to sleep in your example.

[Mr.Moron]

I'd have the spell resolve as though the Elf effectively had infinite hit points.

[ChubbyRain]

The big issue with the spell is the following


Sleep: "Roll 5d8 the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can affect."

Response: Elves aren't affected by magical sleep. Elves are more specific than the sleep spell. Specific beats general. If the spell can't affect the elf then why would you count the elf as part of the HP?

Sleep: "Creatures within 20' of a point you choose within range are affected in ascending order..."

Response: Elves aren't affected by magical sleep.

Sleep: "Starting with the creature that had the lowest hit points each creature affected by this spell falls..."

Response: Elves still aren't affected by magical sleep.

Sleep: "Undead and creatures immune to being charmed aren't affected by the spell".

Response: So due to general versus specific Elves would be treated the same way as a creature that was either Undead or Immune to being charmed. The spell tells you generally what is immune to it while the race of elf tells you a specific instance of it being immune to " magical sleep".

So if you rule one way for elves (infinite HP or their HP counts against the roll but they aren't put to sleep) you would need to rule the same for Undead/Charm Immune creatures. All three have the same qualifier as being immune.

[Talderas]

The big issue with the spell is the following


Sleep: "Roll 5d8 the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can affect."

Response: Elves aren't affected by magical sleep. Elves are more specific than the sleep spell. Specific beats general. If the spell can't affect the elf then why would you count the elf as part of the HP?

Sleep: "Creatures within 20' of a point you choose within range are affected in ascending order..."

Response: Elves aren't affected by magical sleep.

Sleep: "Starting with the creature that had the lowest hit points each creature affected by this spell falls..."

Response: Elves still aren't affected by magical sleep.

Sleep: "Undead and creatures immune to being charmed aren't affected by the spell".

Response: So due to general versus specific Elves would be treated the same way as a creature that was either Undead or Immune to being charmed. The spell tells you generally what is immune to it while the race of elf tells you a specific instance of it being immune to " magical sleep".

So if you rule one way for elves (infinite HP or their HP counts against the roll but they aren't put to sleep) you would need to rule the same for Undead/Charm Immune creatures. All three have the same qualifier as being immune.

Immune is not brought up anywhere regarding elves. Fey ancestry simply states "magic cannot put you to sleep". It does not state that an elf is unaffected by the spell like the conditions applied in the spell description to unconscious creatures, undead, and charm-immune creatures.

[HoarsHalberd]

The big issue with the spell is the following


Sleep: "Roll 5d8 the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can affect."

Response: Elves aren't affected by magical sleep. Elves are more specific than the sleep spell. Specific beats general. If the spell can't affect the elf then why would you count the elf as part of the HP?

Sleep: "Creatures within 20' of a point you choose within range are affected in ascending order..."

Response: Elves aren't affected by magical sleep.

Sleep: "Starting with the creature that had the lowest hit points each creature affected by this spell falls..."

Response: Elves still aren't affected by magical sleep.

Sleep: "Undead and creatures immune to being charmed aren't affected by the spell".

Response: So due to general versus specific Elves would be treated the same way as a creature that was either Undead or Immune to being charmed. The spell tells you generally what is immune to it while the race of elf tells you a specific instance of it being immune to " magical sleep".

So if you rule one way for elves (infinite HP or their HP counts against the roll but they aren't put to sleep) you would need to rule the same for Undead/Charm Immune creatures. All three have the same qualifier as being immune.


It doesn't say elves aren't affected. Thus they are targets. The Elf ability says they are cannot be put to sleep magically, not that they aren't affected by it, and the spell doesn't say creatures immune to magical sleep aren't affected. Thus RAW they are affected and suffer no effect from it from specific beats general. The spell specifically lists creatures that aren't affected. The ability specifically states that it is impossible to be put to sleep not that they cannot be affected. These two groups are separate and cannot be used to generate a specific vs general argument and definitely do not imply your last statement is true.

[Person_Man]

If someone casts Sleep (or whatever) on a group of individuals that includes immune and non-immune creatures, I basically have it ignore the immune creatures entirely, as if they weren't targeted. It feels like the RAI to me, and from a story telling point of view it makes more sense.

I make no claim that its RAW though. I generally suck at that. I've been played too long, and I subconsciously ignore the rules that don't work for me and blend together the rules that do.

[ChubbyRain]

Immune is not brought up anywhere regarding elves. Fey ancestry simply states "magic cannot put you to sleep". It does not state that an elf is unaffected by the spell like the conditions applied in the spell description to unconscious creatures, undead, and charm-immune creatures.


It doesn't say elves aren't affected. Thus they are targets. The Elf ability says they are cannot be put to sleep magically, not that they aren't affected by it, and the spell doesn't say creatures immune to magical sleep aren't affected. Thus RAW they are affected and suffer no effect from it from specific beats general. The spell specifically lists creatures that aren't affected. The ability specifically states that it is impossible to be put to sleep not that they cannot be affected. These two groups are separate and cannot be used to generate a specific vs general argument and definitely do not imply your last statement is true.

Immune
protected or exempt, especially from an obligation or the effects of something.
"they are immune from legal action"

synonyms: resistant to, not subject to, not liable to, unsusceptible to, not vulnerable to; More
not affected or influenced by something.

I don't know what y'alls definition of not affected or immune is but yeah same thing. If you can't be put to sleep via magic then you are immune to magical sleep.

[Ghost Nappa]

For the purposes of a Sleep spell, the Elf is not there at all. Resolve the spell as you would if the Elf were to suddenly blink out of existence.


...Don't actually blink the elf out of existence.

Unless something else is happening that would make the elf blink out of existence.

[Fwiffo86]

The elf cannot be put to sleep magically. This does not mention its capability of being a target, or in the target area (which sleep is an area after all). His hp would be detracted from the amount rolled for the sleep spell. The elf, would not fall asleep.

The spell does not selectively ignore him, nor is the elf considered having infinite hp, he is simply immune to the sleep effect caused by the spell, which is separate from its targeting/area placement. Even the evoker power only allows you to grant automatic saves, it does not open holes up in the area to ignore your allies.

[Baptor]

RAW, this is a hard question. I mean if you cast finger of death at a skeleton, the spell fails and you lose the spell for the day, right? It's not as if it comes back like a boomerang and you get to keep it because, "my bad."

Then again, due to the whole RAI not RAW unofficial guide to 5e, I think it was the designers intent that anything not subject to the spell's effects would be ignored by it, even though the Fey Ancestry has slightly different wording.

In the real world as a DM, however, i'd rule the spell isn't consumed by elven bystandards. Reason being, it's the less jerk thing to do. Plus it makes that racial a bit better, because you can have the elf charge in then drop a sleep on things that surround him.

Like so many things, this really falls to DM discretion, so every DM will have a different take on it. All would be valid in my opinion based on the rules we've seen, but I think my path would be more fun and less rude to the players. I'm a gentleman DM, after all.

YMMV

Edit: Ghost Nappa, can I use that bit about the disappaering elf in my sig?

[Ghost Nappa]

Edit: Ghost Nappa, can I use that bit about the disappaering elf in my sig?

Go for it.

[HoarsHalberd]

Immune
protected or exempt, especially from an obligation or the effects of something.
"they are immune from legal action"

synonyms: resistant to, not subject to, not liable to, unsusceptible to, not vulnerable to; More
not affected or influenced by something.

I don't know what y'alls definition of not affected or immune is but yeah same thing. If you can't be put to sleep via magic then you are immune to magical sleep.

Look, you want a RAW argument for a pitifully small buff to this ability. RAW disagrees with you here. The spell lists targets that aren't affected by the spell, elves and other possible creatures that aren't put to sleep by magic aren't amongst them. Now your ruling doesn't have to have anything to do with RAW. But don't pretend otherwise. Specific beats general. The only targets not affected by the spell are those who are specifically called out as not affected by the spell when playing by RAW. But the biggest and most important RAW in 5e is more important here. DM's call wins. So if you're DM, you decide.

[Giant2005]

Option 1 - the Elf is immune to the effects not to being targeted.
Plus it is the safer option for the DM - if the DM sets a precedence of intelligent targeted spells, the next thing you know there will be arguments as to whether or not the character's magic missiles should be veering off to another victim because the original victim used the Shield Spell.

[Dimcair]

So if the Undead with damage resistance is stabbed by a piercing dagger which is not able to break through his DR and therefore does not affect him, you accidentally stab somebody else?

[CNagy]

The spell is designed to work as it is written. Sleep isn't designed to ignore elves or it would say so, elves are designed to ignore Sleep and their racial ability says so. If it is not ignoring them, it is trying to affect them--and the reason it is not affecting them isn't because the magic realizes they are immune and doesn't even bother, it doesn't affect them because of factors on their end. Change the elf into a human with a magic item or ability that allows him to spend his reaction to ignore the effect of magical sleep--would you stop counting him against the HP total?

[Baptor]

The spell is designed to work as it is written. Sleep isn't designed to ignore elves or it would say so, elves are designed to ignore Sleep and their racial ability says so. If it is not ignoring them, it is trying to affect them--and the reason it is not affecting them isn't because the magic realizes they are immune and doesn't even bother, it doesn't affect them because of factors on their end. Change the elf into a human with a magic item or ability that allows him to spend his reaction to ignore the effect of magical sleep--would you stop counting him against the HP total?

Yes I would. But again, that's my table.

[Shaofoo]

Actually if we go by pure RAW with no wiggle room then the Fey Ancestry doesn't protect you from the Sleep spell at all.

Fey Ancestry says that you can't be put to sleep by magic but Sleep actually states that it forces you unconscious, Fey Ancestry doesn't say that you can't be put unconscious by magic just that you can't be forced to sleep and there is no sleep condition.

This is in stark contrast with the 3.x Elf that specifically references that you can't be affected by any sleep-like effects (using the italic to reference the spell).

[CNagy]

Actually if we go by pure RAW with no wiggle room then the Fey Ancestry doesn't protect you from the Sleep spell at all.

Fey Ancestry says that you can't be put to sleep by magic but Sleep actually states that it forces you unconscious, Fey Ancestry doesn't say that you can't be put unconscious by magic just that you can't be forced to sleep and there is no sleep condition.

This is in stark contrast with the 3.x Elf that specifically references that you can't be affected by any sleep-like effects (using the italic to reference the spell).

"This spell sends creatures into a magical slumber."
"...falls unconscious until the spells ends, the sleeper takes damage or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake."

So... you're saying that by RAW, the spell called Sleep, that says it puts creatures in a magical slumber, and afterwards refers to such creatures as sleepers, isn't actually inflicting magical sleep?

[Shaofoo]

"This spell sends creatures into a magical slumber."
"...falls unconscious until the spells ends, the sleeper takes damage or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake."

So... you're saying that by RAW, the spell called Sleep, that says it puts creatures in a magical slumber, and afterwards refers to such creatures as sleepers, isn't actually inflicting magical sleep?

That is RAI, not RAW.

Of course RAI means that Elves and Half Elves are immune to the Sleep spell but if you were to take it literally then the only point of mechanics uninfluenced by fluff is that you are put in the unconscious state.

Please note that I do not truly believe this and I believe that anyone who truly believes this is channeling the munchkin rollplay gods of yore.