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Easy_Lee
2015-05-08, 03:34 PM
Question for the playground: what character build do you think makes the overall best defender? Some of my thoughts on what makes a good defender:

Able to prevent enemies from attacking allies or punish them for doing so
Difficult to ignore
Can tank or avoid hits
Difficult to shut down
Can come to an ally's aid
Able to recover
Able to boost allies' defenses.

For the sake of this post, I'll assume that healing an ally who has already taken damage does not count, since you should have (ideally) prevented him from taking it.

Finieous
2015-05-08, 03:38 PM
Probably some paladin-cleric multiclass with heavy armor, protection style, Sentinel, auras, sanctuary, spirit guardians, etc.

Townopolis
2015-05-08, 03:46 PM
Able to prevent enemies from attacking allies or punish them for doing so
Difficult to ignore
Can tank or avoid hits
Difficult to shut down
Can come to an ally's aid
Able to recover
Able to boost allies' defenses.



Anyone with Sentinel
The easiest way to approach this is to do a lot of damage or impose nasty status effects. I would give this to any of the 3 main warriors (barbarian, fighter, and paladin). Battlemaster gets a slight edge here, I think, due to status effects. Barbarian is next for pure damage. Paladin relies on damage and meddlesome auras.
Any of the 3 main fighters. Barbarians use rage resistance, fighters use AC and Second Wind, paladins use AC with the possible bonus of OoA aura resistance.
Barbarians (rage immunities), paladins (immunities, auras, and defensive spells), and fighters (indomitable) all have an edge here, although I think fighters are the weakest here of the three.
I'm not sure what this means, exactly, but paladins probably win here, followed by totem barbarians using the first wolf option, maybe.
Recover from what?
This is something casters mostly do, and most casters shouldn't be tanking. Only paladins combine tanking and direct defensive bonuses. Totem barbarians eventually get some stuff to do this indirectly through bear. Battlemaster fighters can also do this indirectly with Goading Strike.

Based on your criteria, I think paladins are the best all-around tank, but that doesn't account for the barbarian's ability to manipulate the appeal of targeting themself vs. others via Reckless Attack.

Naanomi
2015-05-08, 03:46 PM
Battlemaster with Sentinel and Polearm Master can defend a small number of targets (knocking over some, locking down one). Paladin with shield master and protective combat style can take damage for an adjacent ally well.

Gnomes2169
2015-05-08, 03:58 PM
The homebrew class in my signature called the Sanguine Knight can do 1-6, and can do 7 if you go with the immortal subclass. I made it a few months ago, so does that count? :smalltongue:

Nixing homebrew, the fighter and paladin seem like they would hit the most points, with paladin edging things out with their saves aura.

silveralen
2015-05-08, 04:58 PM
Question for the playground: what character build do you think makes the overall best defender? Some of my thoughts on what makes a good defender:

Able to prevent enemies from attacking allies or punish them for doing so
Difficult to ignore
Can tank or avoid hits
Difficult to shut down
Can come to an ally's aid
Able to recover
Able to boost allies' defenses.

For the sake of this post, I'll assume that healing an ally who has already taken damage does not count, since you should have (ideally) prevented him from taking it.

1. Paladin and the new swashbuckler rogue can really punish enemies who try to move away. Monk can stun, either as an AoO or just during his turn, and swashbuckler has a good way of outright preventing them from attacking others, paladin has a couple meh ones. Anyone with protection style qualifies I suppose, but it seems very mediocre.

2. Kinda hard to say, most classes aren't exactly easy to ignore if they can threaten to deal big bursts of damage or something similarly nasty, which is most of the non support characters.

I'd probably go with monk just because ignoring him can result in stuns and lost turns not to mention considerable damage. High level open hand monks are also one of the few classes who can threaten instant death multiple times, so that's a big threat.

3. Barbarian probably. Damage resistance and AC. Monk overtakes him at high levels, having amazing saves, damage resistance, and probably a better AC. Champion fighter can also tank hits by virtue of a good AC, regen+healing surge, and decently rounded saves.

4. This is difficult, most classes can be shut down in some manner. Defenders are typically weak to things which lock them out of close range. Probably swashbuckler rogue, he can also bypass legendary saves.

5. Come to their aid how? For the most part, the classes I mentioned in section 1, paladin, rogue, and monk, are still the best at this. If healing counts paladin is probably on par with the others, if not monk and swashbuckler rogue.

6. Able to recover... champion fighter probably, that or moon druid. Paladin, cleric, and open hand monk also qualify potentially.

7. Paladin or any support caster.

Given all that, open hand monk looks strongest, with paladin and swashbuckler rogue both bringing different things to the table.

Xetheral
2015-05-08, 05:49 PM
Here's a list of non-spell options from the PHB that meet your criteria. (Note that some reaction-activated defensive abilities were excluded on the grounds that they disincentivize attacks on the Defender. Always-on abilities do too, but not as much. Which ones are which is a judgment call.) List is presented in the order the options appear in the PHB.

Rage (Tanking: half damage from physical attacks)
[B]Reckless Attack (Difficult to Ignore: used only when actively defending to incentivize attacking the Barbarian right now)
[B]Danger Sense (Difficult to Shut Down: advantage on dex saves)
[B]Fast Movement (Come to Ally's Aid: move to where you are needed faster)
[B]Feral Instinct (Come to Ally's Aid/Difficult to Shut Down: act sooner in combat to protect allies, protect allies even when surprised)
[B]Mindless Rage (Difficult to Shut Down: immune to charm/frightened)
[B]Totem Spirit (Bear) (Tanking: half damage from non-psychic)
[B]Totem Spirit (Wolf) (Difficult to Ignore: giving advantage to multiple adjacent allies incentivizes attacking you) [B]Totemic Attunement (Bear) (Protect Allies: impose disadvantage on nearby attacks on adjacent allies)
[B]Cutting Words (Protect Allies: turn hits on enemies into misses)
[B]Wild Shape [Druid 2] (Tanking: lots of extra hit points)
Combat Wild Shape [Druid {Moon} 2] (Tanking/Recovery: faster extra HP and bonus action self-healing)
Fighting Style (Protection) [Fighter 1/Paladin 2] (Protect Allies: impose disadvantage on a single attack on an adjacent ally)
Second Wind [Fighter 1] (Recovery: bonus action self-healing)
Action Surge [Fighter 2] (Come to Ally's Aid: extra movement or pre-emptive damage on demand)
Indomitable [Fighter 9] (Difficult to Shut Down: reroll failed save)
Maneuvers (Goading Attack) [Fighter {Battlemaster} 3] (Protect Allies: impose disadvantage on attacks against targets other than you)
Maneuvers (Maneuvering Attack) [Fighter {Battlemaster} 3] (Come to Ally's Aid: permit safe off-turn movement for ally)
Maneuvers (Precise Strike) [Fighter {Battlemaster} 3] (Punish Enemies: synergizes with Sentinel feat)
Maneuvers (Pushing Attack) [Fighter {Battlemaster} 3] (Come to Ally's Aid: remove foe from melee reach of ally)
Ki (Step of the Wind) [Monk 2] (Come to Ally's Aid: bonus action disengage to move to support ally)
Stunning Strike [Monk 5] (Come to Ally's Aid: prevent foe from attacking ally)
Evasion [Monk 7/Rogue 7] (Tanking: less damage from many AoEs)
Stillness of Mind [Monk 7] (Difficult to Shut Down: End charmed or frightened)
Purity of Body [Monk 10] (Difficult to Shut Down: immune to poison and disease)
Diamond Soul [Monk 14] (Difficult to Shut Down: proficiency with all saves, reroll failed saves)
Open Hand Technique [Monk {Way of the Open Hand} 3] (Come to Ally's Aid: remove a foe from melee reach of ally)
Wholeness of Body [Monk {Way of the Open Hand} 6] (Recovery: self-healing)
Divine Smite [Paladin 2] (Difficult to Ignore: massive burst damage raises target priority, synergizes with Polearm Master and Sentinel feats)
Aura of Protection [Paladin 6] (Difficult to Shut Down/Protect Allies: boost to nearby allies' saves)
Aura of Courage [Paladin 10] (Difficult to Shut Down/Protect Allies: immunity to fear for self and nearby allies)
Cleansing Touch [Paladin 14] (Difficult to Shut Down/Protect Allies: end negative status effects on self or allies)
Aura of Devotion [Paladin {Oath of Devotion} 7] (Difficult to Shut Down/Protect Allies: immunity to charm for self and nearby allies)
Aura of Warding [Paladin {Oath of the Ancients} 7] (Tanking/Protect Allies: resistance to damage from spells for self and nearby allies)
Channel Divinity (Abjure Enemy) [Paladin {Oath of Vengeance} 3] (Come to Ally's Aid: stop foe from moving to attack ally)
Relentless Avatar [Paladin {Oath of Vengeance} 7] (Come to Ally's Aid: synergizes with Polearm Master and (part of) Sentinel feats)
Sneak Attack [Rogue 1] (Difficult to Ignore: massive burst damage raises target priority, synergizes with Polearm Master and Sentinel feats)
Cunning Action [Rogue 2] (Come to Ally's Aid: bonus action dash/disengage to reach allies)
Dark One's Own Luck [Warlock {The Fiend} 6] (Difficult to Shut Down: turn failed save into a success)
Fiendish Resilience [Warlock {The Fiend} 10] (Tanking: resistance to one type of damage)
Arcane Ward [Wizard {School of Abjuration} 2] (Tanking: take less damage)
Projected Ward [Wizard {School of Abjuration} 6] (Protect Allies: absorb damage taken by ally)
Portent [Wizard {School of Divination} 2] (Protect Allies: modify inbound attack rolls on allies or reroll failed allied saves)
Alert [Feat] (Come to Ally's Aid/Difficult to Shut Down: act sooner in combat to protect allies, immune to surprise)
Heavy Armor Master [Feat] (Tanking: take less damage)
Inspiring Leader [Feat] (Protect Allies: give allies temporary HP)
Mobile [Feat] (Come to Ally's Aid: reach allies faster)
Polearm Master [Feat] (Prevent Enemies from Attacking Allies: disincentives approaching, synergizes with Sentinel, Sneak Attack, and Divine Smite)
Sentinel [Feat] (Prevent Enemies from Attack Allies/Punish Enemies: stop enemy movement, stop leaving Defender to attack allies, reaction attack if ally attacked, synergizes with Polearm Master, Sneak Attack, and Divine Smite)
Shield Master [Feat] (Tanking: bonus on some dex saves, less damage from AoEs)
Tough [Feat] (Tanking: extra HP)

Looking at the list, Barbarian, Fighter, and Paladin are all quite prominent, but splashes in other classes give useful features. So, for an "ultimate defender" I'd suggest either of the following:

Totem Warrior (Wolf) Barbarian 3/Lore Bard 3/Moon Druid 2/Battle Master Fighter 3/Rogue 2/Ancients Paladin 7 with Sentinel and Inspiring Leader
Go Variant Human and make Charisma your primary stat. Paladin should be first, followed by Druid and Barbarian. Fluff Cutting Words as a well-timed roar. You give fantastic bonuses to nearby allies. With Rage and Wild Shape and spell slots for healing, you're very, very durable. You should be able to use your reaction to help your allies almost every turn, but you run out of daily resources quickly. Your hit bonus isn't great in Wildshape form, but Reckless Attack and Precise Strike help, and don't forget to Smite and Sneak Attack on those reaction attacks when you hit. Alternatively, drop the Bard and Rogue levels, boost Druid to 6, and take an extra level of Barbarian or Fighter for 2 extra feats and better Wildshape choices.

Totem Warrior (Bear/Any/Bear) 14/Battle Master Fighter 4/Rogue 2 with Polearm Master, Sentinel, and Tough
For a more traditional defender, go any race you want, focusing on Strength and Constitution. Make sure your AC is (barely) the lowest of your front-line characters to incentivize attacking you even more. Once everything comes online, enemies REALLY don't want to attack adjacent allies: they get disadvantage to attack your allies, advantage to attack you, and if they do attack your allies they eat a reaction attack with advantage. With Tough and Second Wind being twice as effective with Rage, you're in good shape to survive, although you're so effective at drawing fire that a healer in the party might be advisable.

Easy_Lee
2015-05-08, 06:44 PM
Here's a list of non-spell options from the PHB that meet your criteria.

I was just gauging opinions, but nicely done Xetheral. I agree, and am thinking that a paladin / something would probably be the overall best (or just a pure paladin in general). Something crazy like a paladin 6 / open hand monk 14 with the mariner fighting style and sentinel might even fit the bill.

Finieous
2015-05-08, 08:26 PM
I was just gauging opinions, but nicely done Xetheral. I agree, and am thinking that a paladin / something would probably be the overall best (or just a pure paladin in general). Something crazy like a paladin 6 / open hand monk 14 with the mariner fighting style and sentinel might even fit the bill.

Just curious, what does any other class have to offer in terms of defensive capability compared to a cleric? The cleric can force enemies to make a Wisdom save in order to attack (sanctuary), and provides +1 AC, +1 saves and resistance to all damage (warding bond) at the cost of a 1st and 2nd level spell slot, with no Concentration. No feats, no special builds, just core, low-level class abilities.

It seems like cleric wins this in a landside, and yet no one else even mentions the class.

Easy_Lee
2015-05-08, 08:40 PM
Just curious, what does any other class have to offer in terms of defensive capability compared to a cleric? The cleric can force enemies to make a Wisdom save in order to attack (sanctuary), and provides +1 AC, +1 saves and resistance to all damage (warding bond) at the cost of a 1st and 2nd level spell slot, with no Concentration. No feats, no special builds, just core, low-level class abilities.

It seems like cleric wins this in a landside, and yet no one else even mentions the class.

The paladin auras and stunning strike are both pretty good.

Ardantis
2015-05-08, 09:22 PM
I give it to totem barb all the way. They are the best tanks and they incentivize attacking them with reckless attack and bear ability.

Giant2005
2015-05-08, 10:09 PM
Either the Monk or Paladin. Both meet all of the requirements but I think I'd give the edge to the Paladin due to him being an exceptional healer and able to sort out any damage that does get by him (And his own damage).