The Might of Mystra - Spontaneous At Will Practically-Infinite CL Miracles at Level 6

[booitsjwu]

In Faiths and Pantheons (pg. 51 end of 2nd paragraph), it mentions that "any spell cast within [one of Mystra's temples] by her clerics can benefit from one metamagic feat without needing to take up a higher-level spell slot; the benefit ends if the recipient leaves the location of the temple." Has this been errata-ed? If not, I'm really surprised it's not mentioned more in CO discussions since Acorn of Far Travel virtually eliminates the only restriction.

One potential TO build is:

The Might of Mystra - Gnome
Cloistered Cleric 1/Illusion Domain Wizard 1/Shadowcraft Mage 3
(Domains: Magic, Knowledge, Illusion)

Level 1: Heighten Spell
: Spell Focus (Illusion) (Flaw)
: Sanctum Spell (Flaw) (After gaining Dusk Giant HD, Chaos Shuffle -> Open Minded)
Level 3: Arcane Disciple (Luck)
Level 5: Earth Sense (Chaos Shuffle)
: Earth Spell (Chaos Shuffle)
: Open Minded (x2) (Shadow Gate: Bard -> Inspire Greatness -> Dusk Giant HD/Chaos Shuffle)
: Improved Heighten Spell (Dusk Giant HD/Chaos Shuffle)

First, you qualify for SCM by heightening Net of Shadows. Since we can Heighten Silent Image for free, with Sanctum Spell and Arcane Disciple (Luck), we now have Shadow Miracle (since Shadow Illusion does not require components, we can use Shadow Miracle to duplicate any pre-epic or possibly even epic spells at no cost).

To access [Epic] feats, we Greater Planar Binding in a 9th level Bard to use Inspire Greatness on us and then we can use the Dusk Giant HD trick. We then gain extra feats through Complete Scoundrel's Permanent Magical Locations and then Chaos Shuffle. This will let us take Open Minded a couple of times as well as Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Improved Heighten Spell and Leadership. We then call something in to drain off those extra HD once we're done.

To cast a PI level spell the primary ability score (Wisdom since we're casting Silent Image from the Illusion Domain) must be PI. I think an easy method is using Shadow Miracle to alternately duplicate Greater Consumptive Field and Owl's Insight (this is using the conservative interpretation of GCF; the other one makes thing even quicker). Doing this for a few minutes or more will give us PI Wisdom (and, thus, PI bonus cleric spell slots and DC). With all of our pieces in place, you can spontaneously cast PI CL Shadow Miracle (and thus any other spell) at will at a PI DC...and you're only level 5. :smallsmile:

Bonus: If you want all of your metamagic for free, get node spellcasting and node metamagic then shadow cast PI CL genesis (flowing time) and node genesis. (Once again, plant some oak trees.)

[Extra Anchovies]

One thing first: these aren't truly infinite numbers. These are arbitrary but finite. You still have to set a specific effective spell level to which you heighten your spell, and I'm pretty sure that "infinity" is not a spell level that exists. However, 6.02*1023 would probably do just as nicely. There's almost no functional difference between truly infinite and arbitrary-but-finite, but it's still worth noting because it might come up. The only true infinite loop that I know of in 3.5 is the d2 Crusader.

The "(plant some oak trees)" clause confused me for a little while before I got what you meant. Might want to specify that you don't actually have to plant any oak trees; you just need to find one within the boundaries of Rashemen and cast Acorn of Far Travel on it.

Also, if you're worried about doing all of this at level 7, keep in mind that everything can be done by level 1 if you're a kobold psion with an interest in the outer planes.

Finally, some DMs may rule that the temple-of-Mystra thing interacts with variable-adjustment metamagics (Heighten, Fortify, etc) in a way that it only lets you add one spell level's worth of metamagic effects when you choose to apply one of those feats for free. I vaguely recall there being a rules precedent for this (i.e. something that gives free metamagic that says it only adds one level when you choose to apply Heighten at no cost), but it wasn't a blanket ruling and I can't source it for you anyways.

[booitsjwu]

One thing first: this isn't truly infinite numbers. These are arbitrary but finite. You still have to set a specific effective spell level to which you heighten your spell, and I'm pretty sure that "infinity" is not a spell level that exists. However, 6.02*1023 would probably do just as nicely. There's almost no functional difference between truly infinite and arbitrary-but-finite, but it's still worth noting. The only true infinite loop that I know of in 3.5 is the d2 Crusader.

Yeah, I knew someone was going to point this out. You're right, it's an arbitrarily large natural number but "infinity" is a lot more convenient.


The "(plant some oak trees)" clause confused me for a little while before I got what you meant. Might want to specify that you don't actually have to plant any oak trees; you just need to find one within the boundaries of Rashemen and cast Acorn of Far Travel on it.

I think it's probably safer to pick your own tree and its location. After all, it'd really suck if it got cut down when you were away...


Also, if you're worried about doing that at level 7, keep in mind that everything can be done by level 1 if you're a kobold psion with an interest in the outer planes.

Yes, Pun-pun is obviously more crazy. The thing that surprised me was the fact that I didn't see much mention of this trick in CO discussion.


Finally, some DMs may rule that the temple-of-Mystra thing interacts with variable-adjustment metamagics (Heighten, Fortify, etc) in a way that it only lets you add one spell level's worth of metamagic effects when you choose to apply one of those feats for free. I vaguely recall there being a rules precedent for this (i.e. something that gives free metamagic that says it only adds one level when you choose to apply Heighten at no cost), but it wasn't a blanket ruling and I can't source it for you anyways.

If you find the ruling, please send it my way. That's why I posted the thread!

[Extra Anchovies]

I think it's probably safer to pick your own tree and its location. After all, it'd really suck if it got cut down when you were away...

Rashemi Spirit Magic only functions while you are within Rashemen. Acorn of Far Travel lets you count as if you were at the location of the tree from which the selected acorn came. Thus, if you want to use an Acorn of Far Travel to access Rashemi Spirit Magic outside of the normal borders of Rashemen, you have to get the acorn from a tree that is within the boundaries of Rashemen.


If you find the ruling, please send it my way. That's why I posted the thread!

Taking a look at this guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0), it seems like there aren't any generic metamagic-cost-replacers that require heighten to be only +1 (as most of them have resource costs that scale with effective spell level), but the classes that specifically grant free Heighten (Escalation Mage, Geometer, Radiant Servant of Pelor) only grant heighten spells by 1 level. I was probably remembering those features, but since they're Heighten-specific, they don't really apply here.

[booitsjwu]

Rashemi Spirit Magic only functions while you are within Rashemen. Acorn of Far Travel lets you count as if you were at the location of the tree from which the selected acorn came. Thus, if you want to use an Acorn of Far Travel to access Rashemi Spirit Magic outside of the normal borders of Rashemen, you have to get the acorn from a tree that is within the boundaries of Rashemen.

Yes, I know how it works; that's why I wrote it. :smalltongue: I meant, within the boundaries of Rashemen, instead of picking some random oak tree, choose a safe place and plant a tree there instead.


Taking a look at this guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0), it seems like there aren't any generic metamagic-cost-replacers that require heighten to be only +1 (as most of them have resource costs that scale with effective spell level), but the classes that specifically grant free Heighten (Escalation Mage, Geometer, Radiant Servant of Pelor) only grant heighten spells by 1 level. I was probably remembering those features, but since they're Heighten-specific, they don't really apply here.

Yeah, I agree. If you think of anything else, let me know!

[Extra Anchovies]

Yes, I know how it works; that's why I wrote it. I meant, within the boundaries of Rashemen, instead of picking some random oak tree, choose a safe place and plant a tree there instead.

Oak trees do take about 20 years before they start producing acorns, though. I guess you could planar bubble your personal fast-time plane around the oak sapling to speed that up, but it's still probably better to find an oak that's already in a good spot and then place some protections on it.

Also, I just had a very good laugh over the idea of using a 7th-level spell, a 9th-level spell, and 5000 XP to make a tree grow faster. I love this thread already.

[booitsjwu]

Oak trees do take about 20 years before they start producing acorns, though. I guess you could planar bubble your personal fast-time plane around the oak sapling to speed that up, but it's still probably better to find an oak that's already in a good spot and then place some protections on it.

Also, I just had a very good laugh over the idea of using a 7th-level spell, a 9th-level spell, and 5000 XP to make a tree grow faster. I love this thread already.

Regardless of its original location, you have to find an oak tree that already has acorns. Just move it to a safe location rather than leaving it there and moving on if the location isn't safe. This discussion is getting off-topic...

[Extra Anchovies]

Regardless of its original location, you have to find an oak tree that already has acorns. Just move it to a safe location rather than leaving it there and moving on if the location isn't safe. This discussion is getting off-topic...

Hm. Move an oak tree to a safe location in Rashemen and replant it... I like.

And I'd say that proper oak placement is integral to this trick. It is Acorn of Far Travel-based, after all. Geez is that spell abusable.

[booitsjwu]

Hm. Move an oak tree to a safe location in Rashemen and replant it... I like.

And I'd say that proper oak placement is integral to this trick. It is Acorn of Far Travel-based, after all. Geez is that spell abusable.

Haha yeah, it absolutely is. Sanctum Spell + Acorn of Far Travel is also quite useful.

[Anthrowhale]

... Shadowcraft Mage 3 ... Ethran ...


Shadowcraft Mage requires
Race: Gnome while Ethran requires
Prerequisite Female, human (Rashemen),

How are you both human and gnome?



...
Earth Spell (Incantatrix 1)
...


Earth spell is not metamagic, so Incantatrix 1 cannot provide it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

There is an adaptation section for Shadow craft Mage that he is using. AFAIK it trips into houserule territory since that is not the written text but that is how he is doing it.

[Chronos]

This won't give nigh-infinite caster level, nor even a particularly high boost to caster level. It caps out at +8 CL, or +9 if you're using the gnome illusionist racial substitution. Heighten caps out at an effective spell level of 9th, and therefore so does Earth Spell, which is based on Heighten.

[hamishspence]

There's an epic feat though - Improved Heighten Spell:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell

[Chronos]

Sure, but then we have to either be epic (at which point the trick is no longer nearly as impressive) or to be a dragonwrought kobold and stretch our build resources even thinner (as well as adding yet more cheese).

[Gemini476]

Sure, but then we have to either be epic (at which point the trick is no longer nearly as impressive) or to be a dragonwrought kobold and stretch our build resources even thinner (as well as adding yet more cheese).

[Epic] feats can be taken by all Old Dragons, you know. That includes Half-Dragons.


Now that I think of it, do you even have a high enough intelligence to cast a level NI spell?

[booitsjwu]

There is an adaptation section for Shadow craft Mage that he is using. AFAIK it trips into houserule territory since that is not the written text but that is how he is doing it.

The adaptation is very much in the text: Races of Stone pg. 121 2nd paragraph


[Epic] feats can be taken by all Old Dragons, you know. That includes Half-Dragons.

Ah yes, I had forgotten about Heighten's maximum. To acquire epic, you'd probably just use the Least Dusk Giant HD trick. We then need to gain extra feats (probably through Complete Scoundrel's Permanent Magical Locations) and then Chaos Shuffle (with Shadow Miracle). This will let you take Open Minded a few times and will also let you take Improved Heighten Spell.


Now that I think of it, do you even have a high enough intelligence to cast a level NI spell?

As for the primary ability score being sufficient, we're casting Silent Image as a Cleric (from the Illusion domain) which uses Wisdom so you just need to get it high once. I think an easy one is using Shadow Miracle to alternate the Greater Consumptive Field trick and Owl's Insight. That'll let you increase your wisdom each iteration.

[torrasque666]

The adaptation is very much in the text: Races of Stone pg. 121 2nd paragraph
Adaptations are by their nature houserules. The "Adaptation" section in any class or prestige class are merely suggestions to a DM (or suggestions to be made to a DM) on how to reasonably remove certain restrictions of the class. Or are you saying that you can use the adaptation section from Stoneblessed to make it in such a way that would have you count as anything you'd want?

[booitsjwu]

Adaptations are by their nature houserules. The "Adaptation" section in any class or prestige class are merely suggestions to a DM (or suggestions to be made to a DM) on how to reasonably remove certain restrictions of the class. Or are you saying that you can use the adaptation section from Stoneblessed to make it in such a way that would have you count as anything you'd want?

What textual justification do you have for saying adaptations are houserules? I don't know of one but, if one exists, feel free to send it my way.

Stoneblessed's adaptation's wording is exceptionally vague. SCM's is not.

[Anthrowhale]

Many people would certainly consider 'adaptation' a case of encouraged DM fiat rather than RAW, just like custom magic items.

Do you have a fix for the Earth Spell issue?

[booitsjwu]

Many people would certainly consider 'adaptation' a case of encouraged DM fiat rather than RAW, just like custom magic items.

Do you have a fix for the Earth Spell issue?

Thanks for your input. I updated the build.

[Extra Anchovies]

What's the Least Dusk Giant HD trick? I'm assuming it involves turning into a dusk giant, gaining HD, and turning back with bonus HD in tow?

[booitsjwu]

What's the Least Dusk Giant HD trick? I'm assuming it involves turning into a dusk giant, gaining HD, and turning back with bonus HD in tow?

Yeah that's pretty much what it is except you only want the extra HD temporarily. Basically, you use the extra HD to raise skill rank capacity and allow you to acquire epic feats but acquire the skill points and the feats using a separate method. That way, when you turn back and drain off the HD (Shadow Gate in something that can give negative levels), since your skill ranks and the feats were acquired by a separate method, they don't disappear. It's like early entry to a prestige class but with skills and feats.

[ben-zayb]

What's the Least Dusk Giant HD trick? I'm assuming it involves turning into a dusk giant, gaining HD, and turning back with bonus HD in tow?

You're welcome. (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2299986)

[booitsjwu]

You're welcome. (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2299986)

Thanks, I probably should have just put a link instead of trying to explain it, huh? :smallbiggrin: