Barbarian rage extra hit points

[Ashtagon]

Are there actually any circumstances in which those extra hit points from a barbarian rage are actually useful?

Take a vanilla barbarian with 30 hp, increased to 38 hp while raging as an example

About the only situation in which they seem useful is if that barbarian is wounded to 8 hp or less, then healed before the rage expires. Any other situation, and the extra hp are of no real utility, because they are lost after all the regular hp are lost.

Am I mistaken, or are there other situations in which this aspect of rage is of use?

Edit: I'm interested in RAW only, 3.0, 3.5, or pf.

[ZamielVanWeber]

In my experience they are excellent for getting you killed by making you look a lot tougher than you actually are. To more directly answer your question, outside of situations in which the barbarian is being healed somehow while he is raging I have never seen those extra HP as being useful.

[Baroknik]

The corner case without healing would be similar to the diehard feat -- the ability to keep fighting before passing out and killing your enemy before dropping and then stabilizing.

[Extra Anchovies]

Personally, I'd change them to temporary HP (or maybe grant that in exchange for a feat or class feature), but that's a personal opinion. As it is, the Con increase mostly benefits your Fortitude saves.

[Killer Angel]

Rage's real benefits are other ones. The HP bonus are the icing, and they can be useful. If you don't need them (or the bonuses to saves) in a particular fight, this means that you were not at life risk, but you used anyway the bonus to strenght .
IN the end, those extra HP will serve you only 1 time in 10, but that one time will save your life.

[Ashtagon]

IN the end, those extra HP will serve you only 1 time in 10, but that one time will save your life.

That's just it -- they don't, because they are lost after your real hp.

[Killer Angel]

That's just it -- they don't, because they are lost after your real hp.

yes, but while you're raging, you're not dead.
if you're at 10 "real" hp, and you suffer 25 damage, you're very dead.
if you're at 10 "real" hp, plus 20 from rage, and you suffer 25 damage, you're still fighting, and you can be healed.

it's situational? yes.
it's useless? no.

As said (IMO) it's a marginal bonus that may or may not be useful. What you really want, is the increase to STR.

[ericgrau]

I thought most parties have some kind of healer so they'd be useful. You could at minimum wand the barbarian a few hp before the rage runs out. The typical fight only has 3 major rounds plus 2 rounds of cleanup. It's pretty easy to get a 7 round rage so that gives you 2-4 rounds to get healed.

[Chronos]

It's sometimes argued which is better, an increase to Con or temporary HP. The fact of the matter is, it goes both ways, but a raging barbarian and a cleric persisting Divine Power both get the short end of it. For short-duration effects like rage, temporary HP are better, because you can end up uninjured (or at least less injured) when the effect wears off. For long-duration effects like a persisted spell, though, the bonus to Con would be better, because you can heal back up to your new maximum, while you can't heal temporary HP.

[Marlowe]

They're a good reason to use the Whirling Frenzy variant so you don't Angry yourself into an early grave without noticing.

[Hellborn_Blight]

They're a good reason to use the Whirling Frenzy variant so you don't Angry yourself into an early grave without noticing.

This was the point I was gonna make. Same strength increase, flurry attack, and get +2 dodge bonus to AC instead of a penalty? Is that even a choice? I guess the real trade of is duration and will save, but if you already have a decent con and have no plans to frenzy then it doesn't make much difference.

[Seerow]

This was the point I was gonna make. Same strength increase, flurry attack, and get +2 dodge bonus to AC instead of a penalty? Is that even a choice? I guess the real trade of is duration and will save, but if you already have a decent con and have no plans to frenzy then it doesn't make much difference.

The Will Save and Hit Points are a pretty big deal, I hate giving those up most of the time, AC and Reflex doesn't come close to compensating defensively. The bonus attack is really hard to pass up though, it is definitely the offensively strongest option, and let's face it, optimizing offenses is typically far more effective than defenses.

[Odin's Eyepatch]

One of the members in our party has been playing a barbarian for almost 20 levels, and there were plenty of times where he would have died if it were not for those extra hit points. We also had a cleric in the party, ready to prop him back up before his raging expired. Even if there were nobody to heal him, those extra hitpoints allowed him to fight on 1 extra round, and sometimes that made all of the difference in the fight.

Obviously the bonus hitpoints aren't as good as temporary hitpoints, but they are still good. An extra 80 hitpoint buffer at level 20 between you and death is always welcome.

[Psyren]

Edit: I'm interested in RAW only, 3.0, 3.5, or pf.

In Pathfinder Unchained, the new version of the Barbarian uses temporary HP instead of bonus HP, so they are lost first, and are not deducted a second time if you fall unconscious/stop raging.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You are correct, OP. I never even consider the hp as a player, it's a complete after-thought. Even if it means I stay up longer from wounds....I almost wish it didn't, because it means I'm getting targeted longer and taking damage I can't actually sustain.

Whirling Frenzy is the way to go, the only real loss is the will saves and boost to rage duration; even the fort save boost is pretty painless to lose, it's already going to be high and spellcasters know not to bother targeting the raging guy's fort save.

Maybe on a better-designed Barbarian, the Con increase is coupled with super fast healing while in the rage or something. By RAW in 3E, the Barb can't rage twice in the same encounter even after getting Tireless Rage, so you can just wait it out if facing one.

[Elkad]

Covered above.

It's DieHard basically. You get to keep swinging when you would normally be unconscious. Win the fight, then fall down. Party member sticks a bandaid on you of some sort.

They stack with temp hitpoints, so they retain some usefulness if you have a source of those as well.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's DieHard basically.

Yes, and thus...


In my experience they are excellent for getting you killed by making you look a lot tougher than you actually are.

[EugeneVoid]

Yes, and thus...

I mean, doesn't diehard tend to make people fight more recklessly too?

[Killer Angel]

Am I mistaken, or are there other situations in which this aspect of rage is of use?

Very situational, but extra hp are useful against some spells (power words)

[Chronos]

How can it be a drawback? If you ordinarily have X HP, and rage gives you X+Y, and you want to fall down when you've taken X damage... then just fall down when you've taken X damage. Nobody's going to check to make sure you're really dead until all the other threats are dealt with, and if you ever do actually get into that situation, then you'd be screwed anyway, and the rage HP would actually have a (small) chance to make things better.

[Extra Anchovies]

In Pathfinder Unchained, the new version of the Barbarian uses temporary HP instead of bonus HP, so they are lost first, and are not deducted a second time if you fall unconscious/stop raging.

Nice! Does the rest of the rework look good too, or is it a bit of a flop overall?

[Drork]

As said Extra HP means you can live past death with a healing spell rather than a resurrection spell. Ive done it before enabled my barbarian to survive falling at terminal velocity from a skyship lucky for me I had someone to heal me before I died.
In PF you get temp HP but you also lose rage when you reach 0 HP. Where in 3.x you maintain the HP for a number of rounds well "down is dying" enabling you to survive otherwise lethal situations via the help of your friends.
If you get fast healing or use wands of vigor in your party extra rounds can make all the difference.
I really think you are focusing on the wrong thing though the extra con is amazingly useful, increased fort save, increased rage time. The HP is a bonus side effect of the other two things which is what you are buying into, saying the extra HP is useless is like buying something then throwing back in their face when they give you a penny change.

[ericgrau]

HP is nice too, especially at low level but also at high level. It doesn't make sense to over-invest in any single defense but you should always invest some. It is quite easy to neglect HP to the point where you can drop in 1 or 2 rounds simply from normal damage. Having a +50 fort save and low hp or a +3 fort save and 600 hp are both trouble. It is poor logic to talk in extremes like such and such is always useless. Maybe you can get enough hp at level 20 where you are more likely to drop from a SoD, but you still don't ignore all efforts towards hp and you also have levels 1-19 to consider.

[Hrugner]

In Pathfinder Unchained, the new version of the Barbarian uses temporary HP instead of bonus HP, so they are lost first, and are not deducted a second time if you fall unconscious/stop raging.

How do they get around fatigue immune ragers turning it on and off to restore the lost temp HP?

[SowZ]

I have always ruled the bonus HP are temporary HP and are lost first, then again I frequently houserule things to make class abilities more useful. Healing spells always heal max HP possible, all rogues get penetrating strike for free, etc. etc. So I may not be the best person to ask.

[Story]

If you're a Warshaper, you can heal it automatically. Otherwise, surely your party has some source of healing available.

[Eldaran]

How do they get around fatigue immune ragers turning it on and off to restore the lost temp HP?


Like this:

She also gains 2 temporary hit points per Hit Die. These temporary hit points are lost first when a character takes damage, disappear when the rage ends, and are not replenished if the barbarian enters a rage again within 1 minute of her previous rage.

[bjoern]

I'll say this about HP. the only HP that matters is the last one. You are the same guy at 200hp as you are at one HP.

The best that the extra HP will get you is an extra round before dying. Don't get me wrong sometimes that's all you need. Finish The fight, slam a brewski to get back some HP and your good.

I've always wished (and there may be) a way in d&d to have a "necropotence" like in MtG.

Something that allows you to convert HP into something else that is immediately useful.

Like as a caster you could take that feat to spontaneously cast any spell on your class spell list , known or not , by sacrificing HP equal to the spell level or something.

[Psyren]

Like as a caster you could take that feat to spontaneously cast any spell on your class spell list , known or not , by sacrificing HP equal to the spell level or something.

9 HP for a free 9th-level spell? You may need to revisit the math on this one :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

I've always wished (and there may be) a way in d&d to have a "necropotence" like in MtG.

Something that allows you to convert HP into something else that is immediately useful.

Like as a caster you could take that feat to spontaneously cast any spell on your class spell list , known or not , by sacrificing HP equal to the spell level or something.
Well if you have extra hp lying around there is always the vicious weapon property for +2d6 damage for only a +1 equivalent. Not super optimized, but it's ok.

[ZamielVanWeber]

9 HP for a free 9th-level spell? You may need to revisit the math on this one :smalltongue:

Try squaring it? Even then that doesn't stop people from using weak heals to generate more 7+ level spells.

[ericgrau]

I think in general allowing back liners to convert something they need less into something they need more could be a bad idea. It's not terrible because you are only replenishing something you already had 2-3 of anyway. It does still mean "Go nova, I'll just heal back your 9th level spells after the fight."

[bjoern]

9 HP for a free 9th-level spell? You may need to revisit the math on this one :smalltongue:

IKR. it would be on par with how powerful necropotence is.
I still smile when people read that card and say.
"Pfft, life for cards? Thats dumb . who would use that?"

This guy.
Turn1 I pay half my life and have over twice as many cards as you. Good luck.

[ericgrau]

Except in MtG you can use certain cards to generate immediate mana, and more mana during the same turn means more powerful spells. So necropotence is more like trading HP to be able to cast a higher level spell than you normally could. Anyway it's super broken.

[Killer Angel]

IKR. it would be on par with how powerful necropotence is.
I still smile when people read that card and say.
"Pfft, life for cards? Thats dumb . who would use that?"

This guy.
Turn1 I pay half my life and have over twice as many cards as you. Good luck.

When Necropotence came out for the first time (Ice Age?) NO ONE saw its potential. It was ranked very low, and Jester's cap was top tier.
After few months, things changed...
(basically: the real power it's not always immediately obvious)

[RolkFlameraven]

I've seen one barb at my table who is down to his rage HP at the end of a good third of his fights back in 3.5. And as we got higher in level those rage HP where more then enough to be the difference between having a living damage dealing party member and a dead body. That said I wish they had been temp before unchained made them so.

Still, unchained is odd. Rage is a flat +2 to damage now, so PA is weaker but off hand weapons or secondary natural attacks get a boost. Not sure how I feel about that yet as no one has played a Barb in PF yet at my table.

[bjoern]

When Necropotence came out for the first time (Ice Age?) NO ONE saw its potential. It was ranked very low, and Jester's cap was top tier.
After few months, things changed...
(basically: the real power it's not always immediately obvious)

Yeah, ice age. The first time I saw it (like 11 years old) I thought it was junk. Then it kicked my butt a few times. That was when I made the realization that anything that gives lots of free cards (or spells in d&d) is almost always worth the cost, no matter how high the cost may be.