Jaws of Death (3.5)

[Chester]

Hello folks!

I'm hoping you can help clarify something for me.

At third level, my Warforged took Jaws of Death (Races of Eberron, p. 119):

"You have a bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage (for a Medium warforged). Your bite is treated as a secondary natural weapon (-5 penalty on your attack roll and you apply only 1/2 your Strength bonus on damage rolls)."

So, does this grant me an extra attack at -5 each round as part of a full attack, or do I have to wait until I have a high enough BAB? I'm not quite sure, and we had some questions about it during last night's session.

Thanks in advance if you can clarify for me! :smallsmile:

EDIT: Follow-up question: does the same apply to a Warforged's 1d4 Slam Attack? If so, would a full attack in such a case include primary attack + slam + bite? (And, incidentally, if he's in a Whirling Frenzy, primary + slam + bite + frenzy bonus attack?)

[ZamielVanWeber]

It functions as a natural weapon. Thin this case, when you make a full attack, you can also bite with your jaws at the -5 penalty. This occurs after any primary attack or iteratives you might have (at level 3 your BAB is no higher than +3 so you would get a weapon hit then the bite at -2 plus modifiers). Since it is secondary you may not make an attack with it by itself.

[Hellborn_Blight]

It is an extra attack as part of a full attack. Natural weapons are really good at adding additional options to retinue of attacks.

Edit: ninja desu

[SinsI]

As with any sources of natural attacks, you gain that secondary attack on all your full attacks. Totemists would've been very sad if they had to wait for 8th level to use the 4 claws gained at 2nd level...

[Uncle Pine]

You get an extra bite attack at -5 regardless of your BAB. For example, at 1st level a Monk Warforged with 10 Str and Jaws of Death could flurry with an impressive to-hit bonus of -2/-2/-7. For example, at 1st level a Commoner Warforged with 10 Str and Jaws of Death could full attack with an impressive to-hit bonus of +0/-5.

[Chester]

Thanks for the quick responses!

Follow-up question: does the same apply to a Warforged's 1d4 Slam Attack? If so, would a full attack in such a case include primary attack + slam + bite? (And, incidentally, if he's in a Whirling Frenzy, primary + slam + bite + frenzy bonus attack?)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Follow-up question: does the same apply to a Warforged's 1d4 Slam Attack? If so, would a full attack in such a case include primary attack + slam + bite? (And, incidentally, if he's in a Whirling Frenzy, primary + slam + bite + frenzy bonus attack?)

1) Yes. When you attack you may do Slam and a -5 bite (without a weapon), or Weapon, -5 slam, -5 bite.
2) Not quite. Whirling Frenzy's bonus attack would come before secondary natural weapons. It would be Weapon, Weapon (bonus attack), -5 slam, -5 bite.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's a natural weapon, yes. You could make a full attack with a slam and a bite, at +3/-2, including +3 BAB. You could also make a Whirling Frenzy full attack with a manufactured weapon and two natural weapons at +1/+1/-4/-4. The slam attack, normally primary, becomes secondary when used along with a manufactured weapon. You can take the Multiattack feat to reduce the penalties to -2, for a full attack of +1/+1/-1/-1.

Your DM may rule that you do not have an appendage free to slam with, if you use a two-handed weapon. However, that's not neccessarily RAW. The warforged racial traits mention nothing about that, and you can easily say that you slam with a kick or shoulder, while using a two-handed weapon.

If you grow up to large size, you get the ability to slam once with each arm. Monster Manual I, page 312, the glossary on natural weapons:

"generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or armlike limbs can make a slam attack with each arm) [...]
Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage."
Again, this might interfere with two-handed weapon use, or it might not (depending on whether you must use arms only, or appendages in general). If it doesn't, Enlarge Person becomes that much better for you, leading to a full attack of +1/+1/-4/-4/-4.

[Uncle Pine]

Only if your primary attack doesn't make use of your arm. For example, a warforged can't attack with a greatsword or with two daggers and use its slam attack in the same round, but it can attack with a rapier and use its slam attack. Also, since you mentioned it, remember that you can decide to use your extra attack from Whirling Frenzy with whatever (natural) weapon you are using: so a raging 1st level Warforged Barbarian with Jaws of Death wielding a rapier could attack with rapier/rapier/slam/bite, rapier/slam/slam/bite or rapier/slam/bite/bite.

EDIT: It may be worth to specify that, as ExLibrisMortis mentioned, the fact that you can't use a slam attack with an arm wielding a weapon isn't strict RAW: however, every official statblock is written as if you couldn't. See MM 250 (Vampire, 5th level Human Fighter) for an example of a Medium creature with a slam attack that can wield weapons.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Only if your primary attack doesn't make use of your arm. For example, a warforged can't attack with a greatsword or with two daggers and use its slam attack in the same round, but it can attack with a rapier and use its slam attack.

Where is this rule? I have seen it treated fairly consistently here that you can let one arm go of a two handed weapon, use it, and put it back.
Also a warforged slam is not explicitly the arm, and the slam rules only require "an appendage" so a kick would work.

[Chester]

OK, brain hurts. Math involved. Confusion. :confused:

Level 3 Warforged Barbarian / Fighter (variants, with Pounce and Dungeoncrasher).

I have a Greataxe, slam attack, Jaws of Death (bite), Whirling Frenzy, and Cleave.

What do my potential full attacks look like at this point?

EDIT: In addition to Uncle Pine's scenario, but with BAB involved. (Just saw that, Uncle Pine!)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Level 3 Warforged Barbarian / Fighter (variants, with Pounce and Dungeoncrasher).

I have a Greataxe, slam attack, Jaws of Death (bite), Whirling Frenzy, and Cleave.

What do my potential full attacks look like at this point?

Full attack with whirling frenzy extra attack: +1 Greataxe, +1 Greataxe, -4 Bite, -4 Slam. Add modifiers to taste.
Full attack without whirling frenzy extra attack: +3 Greataxe, -2 Bite, -2 Slam. Add modifiers to taste.
Edit: Just saw Uncle Pine's edit. I am going to stick with the strict RAW, so YMMV. If your DM says no for whatever reason, just drop the slam from the list.

[Chester]

Full attack with whirling frenzy extra attack: +1 Greataxe, +1 Greataxe, -4 Bite, -4 Slam. Add modifiers to taste.
Full attack without whirling frenzy extra attack: +3 Greataxe, -2 Bite, -2 Slam. Add modifiers to taste.

OK, thanks.

Why, though, do I not get full BAB on my first attack while Frenzying? I believe the frenzy is -2 to all attacks after the primary, or am I missing something?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Why, though, do I not get full BAB on my first attack while Frenzying? I believe the frenzy is -2 to all attacks after the primary, or am I missing something?


While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round.
They all get the penalty.

[Hellborn_Blight]

You get an extra bite attack at -5 regardless of your BAB. For example, at 1st level a Monk Warforged with 10 Str and Jaws of Death could flurry with an impressive to-hit bonus of -2/-2/-7.

Well, you can't flurry with a natural attack.

"When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired."

In know it's beside the point of what you were saying, but I thought I would point it out none the less.

[Uncle Pine]

Full attack with whirling frenzy extra attack: +1 Greataxe, +1 Greataxe, -4 Bite, -4 Slam. Add modifiers to taste.
Full attack without whirling frenzy extra attack: +3 Greataxe, -2 Bite, -2 Slam. Add modifiers to taste.
Edit: Just saw Uncle Pine's edit. I am going to stick with the strict RAW, so YMMV. If your DM says no for whatever reason, just drop the slam from the list.

This.


Well, you can't flurry with a natural attack.

"When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired."

In know it's beside the point of what you were saying, but I thought I would point it out none the less.

You're right. Thanks for pointing this out, I'll edit the message to avoid confusion.