Gish Challenge

[Spectre9000]

I have been trying to create a Gish character for some time now and have made a few posts about this. The path I went down involved persisting spells such as Wraithstrike and using THF with Powerstrike along with getting 9th level spells as I wanted 9th level spells and everyone has said THF is the best for melee gish. This has invariably led to the Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 build for me. While this does certainly work, I can't say I'm particularly excited about playing this. The reason for that is I'm starting probably around level 4 and that build doesn't seem to really pick up as a Gish until post 10, hitting it's stride at level 15. It seems like a build that would be fun at later levels, but not in the levels preceding that.

Therefore, I have gone back to what I originally had in mind for what I wanted in a Gish and decided to (since I'm unable to come up with a build achieving it) let the community attempt to create what I originally had in mind before I commit to the above build. In games such as Elder Scrolls, and Dragon Age: Origins (just a couple more modern games) I've played characters that dual wield and wear armor, whilst bolstering themselves with magic enchantments (sometimes bound weapons in ES) and Mage Armor/Barrier spells (think Arcane Warrior from DA:O). D&D works differently than those games obviously, and TWF got shafted, but still, I'd like to make one final attempt to see if there's a build that'll work.

The Challenge:
Make a Gish build fulfilling the below requirements.

Requirements:

9th Level Spells with full access to the Wizard/Sorcerer Spell List. (With the ability to know all the spells like a Wizard)
16 BAB (for full attacks)
Good survivability through AC (whatever the source, ie armor, bracers, spells, etc.)
Wraithstrike, or Wraithstrike alternative (kudos for being practical at early levels since everything has such a relatively high AC)
Spell-Channeling (love the level 13 Duskblade arcane-channeling)
Gish-like from 4th level on
Two Weapon Fighting
Allow True Neutral alignment
No Undead


Bonus:

Sleight of Hand
Wings
Spell Persisting
Bastard Sword Proficiency
Powerful Build
Remove Somatic Component to spells
Craft Magic Items



Again, I understand if this just isn't possible, but this is the original idea of the character I want to play.

[bjoern]

I like the classic sorcadin. Paladin2/sorcerer4/spellsword1/abjurant champion 5/sacred excorcist8.

Or go with dragonwrought kobold cheese into incantatrix then abj champ.

And for wraith strike, you could rape the RAW on creating magic items and make a continuous item for pretty cheap since its so low level.

[A Tad Insane]

If gishing coming online too late is a problem, why not use the duskblade? It has all your requirements, and the bonuses are feats/race/gear

edited: Didn't notice the full wizard/sorcerer spell list

ranger2/wizard4/spellsword1/Abjurant Champion10/stuff3

It comes on late, but sooner than swiftblade, and it gets you most of what you want. Everything else can be acquired through feats and race selection

[Optimator]

My group houseruled that the... oh gosh, I forgot the name. Spellblade? The armoured caster from CW. Edit: Spellsword! We ruled it gets 8/10 casting. Not a bad way to get good HP, spell channeling, BAB, and casting that way. Obviously not perfectly kosher but if you can swing it at your table go for it!

Edit: Wait a minute, you want to dual-wield bastard swords? On a caster? Eeeww. Ew ew ew ew. TWF+Improved TWF, EWP: Bastard Sword, AND Somatic Weaponry? Plus caster feats and PrC requirements? I hope you houserule the PF feat rate or use flaws. That's setting feats on fire. I'd say choose 9th level spells or TWF. Doing both is just... madness.

[Demidos]

Well if you accept homebrew, Neo Seraphi had a quite good Gish class. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?212289-The-Gish-(3-5-Base-Class-WIP-PEACH))

Oddly enough, the page is glitching very badly for me.... :smallconfused:
But it should be possible with that. The class is similar to the TOB classes (wait for me to finish before the outrage!) in that it will be weaker than a Sorcadin type gish where you can pick your own spells etc, but it had a quite high optimization floor (you can play in a moderate to high OP party with it, no problem, but its harder to use outside those scenarios.)

As to your bonus requests --
Sleight of Hand -- not sure what you want here. Invest the skill points. If youd like, buy an item of competence.
Wings -- Dragonborn, Raptoran, Grafts. Those are the easiest ways you'll get those.
Spell Persisting -- requires high level spell slots, lots of feats, or DMM (easiest). For that you'll need turn undead, which should be most easily obtainable through sacred exorcist. Alternately, I believe dread necromancer technically does not work, but most DMs will probably let it slide. Its a pretty mediocre choice for a gish though. Lastly, of course, a cleric dip would be the easiest, but that would be more of a divine gish (like a ruby knight vindicator or something).
Bastard Sword Proficiency -- not aware of any race that gives you this.
Powerful Build -- half giant, goliath, Jotunbrud feat.
Remove Somatic Component to spells -- still spell or somatic weaponry (much better).
Craft Magic Items -- take the feats. Theres also feats that lower costs like exceptional artisan etc (check an artificer handbook).

You might be able to pull off everything you want, but you'll definitely have to make some sacrifices.

[Pluto!]

I originally drafted a long post centered around combining the usual JPM/AbjChamp with Raumathari Battlemage (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413c), which I think is spot-on for the channeling, bastard swords and so forth, but if you're expecting most of the character's progression to take place at low levels, just go Mystic Ranger. It comes built-in with TWF-friendly spells, automatic TWF and sword proficiencies, and unless you're planning on your character's levels going into the teens, it's spell progression is effectively tracking for 9s. Just add Sword of the Arcane Order for Wizard spells (not even necessary unless you're going to high levels or playing an especially high-op game) and a Spellstoring weapon, and you're there.
Oddly enough, the page is glitching very badly for me.... :smallconfused:

The new forums and the old forums' tables don't get along.

[Demidos]

The new forums and the old forums' tables don't get along.

I am aware, I wasnt referring to the table. For me the next few posts are actually overlaid over the first post, covering the sidebar. Is that not visible for anyone else? :smallconfused:

[Twurps]

I am aware, I wasnt referring to the table. For me the next few posts are actually overlaid over the first post, covering the sidebar. Is that not visible for anyone else? :smallconfused:

yep, same for me...

[Xerlith]

Okay, so...

NaenHoon Illumian
Cloistered Cleric1/Abrupt Jaunt Martial Wizard 3/Warblade (Crusader is better, but 2WF) 1/Raumathari Battlemage 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Raumathari Battlemage+7

Feats:
1st: Sanctum Spell, Flaw: Combat Casting
2nd: Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd: EWP: Bastard Sword
6th: Arcane Disciple: War.
9th: Persist Spell
12th: Arcane Strike

Skill trick: Collector of Stories.

Domains: Knowledge (Devotion swap), Travel (Devotion swap!), Planning (Extend spell)
Buy Gloves of the Balanced Hand to gain ITWF. Don't even think of burning a feat.
Dual-wield Sunswords. a +1 Sunsword is a Bastard Sword that wields as a short sword. And it costs 3,300gp. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, p. 210. Enhance with Spell Storing.
Yes, it's 14 BAB, but Arcane Disciple:War with Naenhoon persisting gives you +20BAB all day every day. Buy a Nightstick.

You can drop a swift-action Shield on yourself for a +9AC. Be a Good guy and grab Luminous Armor for another big defense bonus. Abrupt Jaunt means you'll ALWAYS have a Nope button. That's for defense.

Offense: Swift-action movement up to your enemy. Free action assess the enemy for Knowledge Devotion bonuses. Free Action Arcane Strike for +x to hit and +xd4 to damage, with damage bonuses stacking with other Arcane Strikes. Full-Attack with the aforementioned Arcane Strike, while channeling through the weapons thanks to battlemage. I hope they're spell-storing, because that's another two spells dropped on the enemy. Rinse and repeat until no enemies in sight.

4th-level play? Your ability scores do the heavy lifting. With Knowledge Devotion and Magic Weapon spell shoring up your to-hit and damage, you can be okay in combat. The build kicks in at 5th level, when Warblade comes into play.


I'd be tempted to scratch 2WF and go straight AJM Wizard4/Crusader1/Ruathar1/JPM4/Abjurant Champion 5/JPM+5, grabbing Power Attack and Wraithstriking away. Free quicken spell 1/encounter doesn't hurt as well.

Both builds use early entry with Sanctum Spell.


EDIT: Oh wait.

Bard 8/Crusader1/JPM1/Sublime Chord 1/JPM+9

No channeling, but damn near everything else. Buy a spellstoring weapon. Optimize Inspire Courage. Go to town.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

(NG) Illumian (Naenhoon), Sentinel Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. Get the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick and you can free-action switch what spells it provides to any other spells of the same spell level that you want, thus he effectively has access to his entire class spell list and even every spell from every spell list if you UMD the Runestaff each day when you attune to it. The NG Sentinel variant of Paladin is from Dragon 310, but you still need to be good aligned to take Sacred Exorcist and to use (Greater) Luminous Armor.

Your Runestaff can be any other staff-type item in addition to being a runestaff. I would make it an Elvencraft (RotW) Composite Longbow with three Wand Chambers. You can put charges of spells on it as a magical staff, and with the feat Eilservs School in Drow of the Underdark, when you strike a creature with both ends of the staff in the same round you can cast a spell that the staff contains on the target as a swift action, which gives you an excuse to have TWF and achieves the spell channeling requirement. From 3rd level you can use a Wand of Wraithstrike, and can spells without somatic components like Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter, and Power Word: Pain while wearing armor.


Alternatively, you could go Druid 15/ Nature's Warrior 5, Wild Shape into a Dire Polar Bear, buff yourself, wear a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp, use armor and shield with the Wild property that provide their AC bonus when you Wild Shape but don't count you as using armor or a shield so they don't interfere with the Monk AC bonus. You'll get two claw attacks thus fighting with both forelimbs, you can be TN aligned, and you'll get tons of cold, fire, and lightning spells. Cast (Extended) Produce Flame to deal fire damage with every natural weapon attack per holding the charge, or become a Fleshraker and use Venomfire to add CLd6 acid damage to three of your natural weapon attacks for the spell channeling feel.


Yet another alternative would be Lightning Warrior 20, use Spell Storing weapons, and take Obtain Familiar and even Improved Familiar to make up for its gross shortcomings.


Finally, you could go with a Cloistered Cleric 1/ Archivist 11/ Hexer 8, use DMM: Persistent with Divine Power and tons of other buffs, get access to nearly every spell in the game (community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1023251), and TWF with a Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Flame Blade and a Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Ice Axe.

[Optimator]

Yet another alternative would be Lightning Warrior 20, use Spell Storing weapons, and take Obtain Familiar and even Improved Familiar to make up for its gross shortcomings.

Heheh that was the first thing I thought of when I saw the TWF part in the OP :smalltongue:

[Oharunsi]

If gishing coming online too late is a problem, why not use the duskblade? It has all your requirements, and the bonuses are feats/race/gear

edited: Didn't notice the full wizard/sorcerer spell list

ranger2/wizard4/spellsword1/Abjurant Champion10/stuff3

It comes on late, but sooner than swiftblade, and it gets you most of what you want. Everything else can be acquired through feats and race selection

i thought abjurant champion was only a 5 lvl class?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's also Ranger 1/ StP Erudite 6/ Slayer 9/ Psionic Abjurant Champion 4.


i thought abjurant champion was only a 5 lvl class?

And Ranger doesn't give him the armor proficiency to qualify for Spellsword. There's all kind of stuff wrong with that build.

[Oharunsi]

i think a good Gish build also needs more spells, i have been trying to build one for a while but i keep running out of ideas on the same problem and that is spells. anyone have any ideas? iv though of pearls of power but that only works on spells you have already cast ( they are nice tho and invited). at he beginning you really don't get much tho so it might just be me... im sure this is a good question in a Gish thread :D

[Oharunsi]

There's also Ranger 1/ StP Erudite 6/ Slayer 9/ Psionic Abjurant Champion 4.



And Ranger doesn't give him the armor proficiency to qualify for Spellsword. There's all kind of stuff wrong with that build.

He is defiantly not doing SRD, he might be on dndwiki ... kinda still wrong tho

[Spectre9000]

Wow, lots of feedback on this; it's awesome. I've been reading over your thoughts and looking into them and come up with something of my own, which might be altered based on some questions.

First, I saw the suggestions on the weapons (Sun Blade, which seems pretty cool, and the Fell Weapons).

When using the Sun Blade (which is what I assume you meant by Sunsword), can I use it for the purposes of Power Attack (basically for Power Attack, can I consider it a Bastard sword, or do I have to consider it a short sword)? Also, the Sun Blade I found was a +2 and cost considerably more than 3,300 GP (it costs 50,335gp). I can't find an expanded entry for it that goes into more detail than the table in Magic Item Compendium.

As to the Fell Weapons (Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Flame Blade and Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Ice Axe) work exactly? Those appear to be spells you've persisted on the weapons?


On another note, Jotenbrud doesn't give Powerful Build, only a sub-set of it, and not the part I was really interested in (the using large weapons part).


I'm liking all the suggestions so far, please keep them coming. Also, Biff, could you elaborate a bit more on that Archivist build? I also love the Sacred Exorcist, but don't wanna force myself into a "be good or lose all abilities" scenario. The Bard builds don't get full level 9 spell access for Wizard/Sorcerer list (Unless I missed something, which is totally possible). Also, I've not looked into the Psychic stuff much due to it seeming like a whole other can of worms, but may be interesting too.


Anyway, without further ado, the build I've come up with from your suggestions and thoughts:

Fighter 1/Martial Wizard(Domain: Transmutation) 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Paragnostic Apostle 2/Eldritch Knight 4

This gives 16 BAB and 9th level spells.

Feats:
Human: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Bastard Sword)
Fighter 1: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
Martial Wizard 1: Weapon Focus(Bastard Sword)
Level 3: Combat Casting
Martial Wizard 5: Power Attack
Level 6: Somatic Weaponry
Level 9: Extend Spell
Level 12: Minor Shapeshift
Level 15: Persistent Spell
Level 18: Easy Metamagic

I'll be using the Gloves of the Balanced Hand as well for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

I can swap Minor Shapeshift for something else, or just lose that feat slot and change to a different race (and perhaps pick up wings?? seems silly to drop practicality for fluff though >.>)

Spell Channeling is also iffy on this build with its only access through Spell Storing, which discharges after every attack and as I understand it won't last through the full attack round( like the Duskblade's Arcane Channeling).

[Demidos]

When using the Sun Blade (which is what I assume you meant by Sunsword), can I use it for the purposes of Power Attack (basically for Power Attack, can I consider it a Bastard sword, or do I have to consider it a short sword)? Also, the Sun Blade I found was a +2 and cost considerably more than 3,300 GP (it costs 50,335gp). I can't find an expanded entry for it that goes into more detail than the table in Magic Item Compendium.

As to the Fell Weapons (Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Flame Blade and Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Ice Axe) work exactly? Those appear to be spells you've persisted on the weapons?

I can swap Minor Shapeshift for something else, or just lose that feat slot and change to a different race (and perhaps pick up wings?? seems silly to drop practicality for fluff though >.>)


I believe Biff took the initial cost of the weapon and backtracked. But not sure.

Flame Blade and Ice axe are both spells themselves, that create magical weapons. The Drain/frighten are metamagic feats applied to spells that deal damage, so that every time they deal damage the target takes a negative level/is frightened.

Minor shapeshift is pretty dang useful. Wings can be ''bought'' via template (the cheapest (in all senses of the word) being unseelie fey, or dragonborn, or winged, or etc.) or gold (items) or grafts.

[Spectre9000]

I believe Biff took the initial cost of the weapon and backtracked. But not sure.

Flame Blade and Ice axe are both spells themselves, that create magical weapons. The Drain/frighten are metamagic feats applied to spells that deal damage, so that every time they deal damage the target takes a negative level/is frightened.

Minor shapeshift is pretty dang useful. Wings can be ''bought'' via template (the cheapest (in all senses of the word) being unseelie fey, or dragonborn, or winged, or etc.) or gold (items) or grafts.

Xerlith was the one that mentioned the Sun Blades(or Sunsword as he called it).

The Ice Axe is clerics and the Flame Blade is for druids. Any such version besides Spectral Weapon and Blade of Pain for Wizards? They don't seem all that impressive like the Ice Axe does (2d12+CL/2 points of damage as a 3rd level spell? yes, please). I suppose I could get Arcane Disciple(Cold).

I thought I had to have a feat to graft things onto myself?

[bjoern]

Wow, lots of feedback on this; it's awesome. I've been reading over your thoughts and looking into them and come up with something of my own, which might be altered based on some questions.

First, I saw the suggestions on the weapons (Sun Blade, which seems pretty cool, and the Fell Weapons).

When using the Sun Blade (which is what I assume you meant by Sunsword), can I use it for the purposes of Power Attack (basically for Power Attack, can I consider it a Bastard sword, or do I have to consider it a short sword)? Also, the Sun Blade I found was a +2 and cost considerably more than 3,300 GP (it costs 50,335gp). I can't find an expanded entry for it that goes into more detail than the table in Magic Item Compendium.

As to the Fell Weapons (Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Flame Blade and Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Ice Axe) work exactly? Those appear to be spells you've persisted on the weapons?


On another note, Jotenbrud doesn't give Powerful Build, only a sub-set of it, and not the part I was really interested in (the using large weapons part).


I'm liking all the suggestions so far, please keep them coming. Also, Biff, could you elaborate a bit more on that Archivist build? I also love the Sacred Exorcist, but don't wanna force myself into a "be good or lose all abilities" scenario. The Bard builds don't get full level 9 spell access for Wizard/Sorcerer list (Unless I missed something, which is totally possible). Also, I've not looked into the Psychic stuff much due to it seeming like a whole other can of worms, but may be interesting too.


Anyway, without further ado, the build I've come up with from your suggestions and thoughts:

Fighter 1/Martial Wizard(Domain: Transmutation) 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Paragnostic Apostle 2/Eldritch Knight 4

This gives 16 BAB and 9th level spells.

Feats:
Human: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Bastard Sword)
Fighter 1: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
Martial Wizard 1: Weapon Focus(Bastard Sword)
Level 3: Combat Casting
Martial Wizard 5: Power Attack
Level 6: Somatic Weaponry
Level 9: Extend Spell
Level 12: Minor Shapeshift
Level 15: Persistent Spell
Level 18: Easy Metamagic

I'll be using the Gloves of the Balanced Hand as well for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

I can swap Minor Shapeshift for something else, or just lose that feat slot and change to a different race (and perhaps pick up wings?? seems silly to drop practicality for fluff though >.>)

Spell Channeling is also iffy on this build with its only access through Spell Storing, which discharges after every attack and as I understand it won't last through the full attack round( like the Duskblade's Arcane Channeling).

Make an item of continuous enlarge person.
Spell level x caster level x 2000gp
Since its 1min/level its x4 after that
So 1x1x2000x4=8000gp

[Spectre9000]

Make an item of continuous enlarge person.
Spell level x caster level x 2000gp
Since its 1min/level its x4 after that
So 1x1x2000x4=8000gp

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that also cause my AC to take a hit?

[bjoern]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that also cause my AC to take a hit?

-2 to AC yes, but also a bonus to strength and to hit. Plus access to larger weapons, greater reach (a huge benefit for -2 ac) and qualify for cool stuff like the knock back feat.

Plus if whatever reason you needed to get small , say if you needed to crawl through a space or ride a mount and not way a ton (literally) just take the item off and the put it back on when u need it.

Plus as an abj. Champ you'll have AC well above 40 and higher. -2 isn't a thing to worry about.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As to the Fell Weapons (Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Flame Blade and Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Ice Axe) work exactly? Those appear to be spells you've persisted on the weapons?

Flame Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm) and Ice Axe (SC) are fixed duration spells that you use (DMM) Persistent Spell with. They both make melee touch attacks, and of course one deals fire damage, the other cold damage. You don't add any ability score bonus to your damage, but since they make melee attacks you can still apply Power Attack to them, it just makes them deal additional fire or cold damage.

Fell Drain and Fell Frighten are metamagic feats in Libris Mortis. Fell Drain makes any creature damaged by the spell gain a negative level. Fell Frighten makes any creature damaged by the spell who's subject to mind-affecting fear effects Shaken for ten rounds, or escalates their current fear condition by one step (Shaken > Frightened > Panicked) for as long as any contributing fear effect lasts (Rules Compendium).

Note that a single creature is only affected by Fell Drain and Fell Frighten once for each time you cast a spell modified by those, so only your first attack against a creature with each weapon will inflict those metamagic feats' effects. They're still well worth having and using, considering you can also use them with DMM: Persistent Fire Shield twice (hot and cold versions), as well as Cloud of Knives (possibly multiple times). Those Fire Shields will make it so anytime anyone hits you with a melee attack that's not a reach weapon, they'll take fire damage and cold damage and the first time they hit you they'll get two negative levels and be Shaken > Frightened for ten rounds.

[Xerlith]

Because you're looking at the wrong blade, guys. It's not the srd one. It is an item from Expedition to castle Ravenloft. Page 210. I actually mentioned it in the original post.

[Spectre9000]

Because you're looking at the wrong blade, guys. It's not the srd one. It is an item from Expedition to castle Ravenloft. Page 210. I actually mentioned it in the original post.

Sorry, I don't have that book, nor am I able to find it anywhere.


Incidentally, I could make an item of Continuous Wraithstrike, could I not?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Incidentally, I could make an item of Continuous Wraithstrike, could I not?

Just use Persistent Spell with it, it's less of a gray area than custom items. If you do make a custom item of it, keep in mind that the minimum caster level is whatever's needed to meet the prerequisites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions), so a custom magic ring has a minimum caster level of 12th (Forge Ring), or a custom wondrous item has a minimum caster level of 3rd (Craft Wondrous Item). A wondrous item of Wraithstrike would cost 2 (spell level) x 3 (caster level) x 2,000 gp (continuous) x 4 (duration measured in rounds) = 48,000 gp.

[Extra Anchovies]

Just use Persistent Spell with it, it's less of a gray area than custom items. If you do make a custom item of it, keep in mind that the minimum caster level is whatever's needed to meet the prerequisites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions), so a custom magic ring has a minimum caster level of 12th (Forge Ring), or a custom wondrous item has a minimum caster level of 3rd (Craft Wondrous Item). A wondrous item of Wraithstrike would cost 2 (spell level) x 3 (caster level) x 2,000 gp (continuous) x 4 (duration measured in rounds) = 48,000 gp.

However, due to the fact that there are metamagic replacers (e.g. being a cleric of Mystra inside a temple of Mystra), you can have a Cleric 1/Wizard 3 with Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, and Mystra as a patron deity, who is able to cast Persistent Wraithstrike at a spell level of 2 with a caster level of 3. A 1/day item of this effect is 2160 gp. If you want to safeguard against dispells/etc, a command-word item of the above spell is 10800 gp. This is diving even deeper into custom-item cheese, but it's still an option.