Why Mystra didn't have few clones of herself?

[With a box]

Did she banned necromancy? :smallconfused:

[BWR]

Maybe godly powers don't transfer with Clones.

[Khatoblepas]

If you're thinking about the Mystra that died after Karsus' Avatar was cast:

Clone in previous editions didn't create an inert body a creature can inhabit after dying, it's more like creating a doppleganger of someone. Any contingencies Mystra would have had to resurrect herself on death would have also stopped working, since without her, the Weave cannot exist, and without the Weave, FR is a dead magic zone.

Unless Mystra has since died again?

[RolkFlameraven]

If you're thinking about the Mystra that died after Karsus' Avatar was cast:

Clone in previous editions didn't create an inert body a creature can inhabit after dying, it's more like creating a doppleganger of someone. Any contingencies Mystra would have had to resurrect herself on death would have also stopped working, since without her, the Weave cannot exist, and without the Weave, FR is a dead magic zone.

Unless Mystra has since died again?

Twice. Every time they made a new edition of D&D they killed her off. Then 5E came around and they brought her back from the dead.

As for why she didn't make a clone or more I think Manshoon's clone problems are why myself. Even after the 'Manshoon wars' there where STILL three of him running around and it stayed that way until the spell plague until the only one left was the Vampire Manshoon.

Having more then one Mystra all active might be problematic don't you think?

Besides that, she did in a way. The Chosen all have a part of her inside of them, most of her 'real' children as well. And lastly the clone, while inert, can be effected by things. 'Manshoon' was turned into a vampire as a clone before he awoke after all. Shar, Bane or others could well have done all kinds of things to a clone that would make it a bad idea to have.

[Honest Tiefling]

Actually, other then creepy comments made by staff, why would it be problematic to have several Mystras running around? I mean, if you have to say that only one Mystra per weave, no problem. Have the clones make BETTER weaves. That are good only and make all spellcasting feel like unicorn cuddles and make the spells better. Is there really any reason to believe that the clones automatically attack each other?

[Darth Ultron]

Well.....gods don't work that way.

For example, the 8th level spell Clone does not copy the divine rank. It would just be silly to say a mortal spell can do that. And a god does not have ''flesh'' or a ''living body'', so they can't meet the requirements of the spell.

Could Mystra make an Epic Level spell: Clone God? Sure. But she does not really need too. A god can already make lots of ''clones'' of itself...known as avatars.

[RolkFlameraven]

The clones of Manshoon were all under a compulsion to kill each other and the three who survived the 'war' where the one that 'won' and the two that overcame that compulsion. If such a thing also happened to a god... well I think that might have well be much worse then the spell plague ended up being.

And again this is just based off of some epic spell that lets her make godlings of herself and not just a bunch of 'midnights' running around with delusions of godhood. Though THAT might have been funny to see really.

[Psyren]

Well.....gods don't work that way.

For example, the 8th level spell Clone does not copy the divine rank. It would just be silly to say a mortal spell can do that. And a god does not have ''flesh'' or a ''living body'', so they can't meet the requirements of the spell.

Could Mystra make an Epic Level spell: Clone God? Sure. But she does not really need too. A god can already make lots of ''clones'' of itself...known as avatars.


The clones of Manshoon were all under a compulsion to kill each other and the three who survived the 'war' where the one that 'won' and the two that overcame that compulsion. If such a thing also happened to a god... well I think that might have well be much worse then the spell plague ended up being.

And again this is just based off of some epic spell that lets her make godlings of herself and not just a bunch of 'midnights' running around with delusions of godhood. Though THAT might have been funny to see really.

Some combination of these two would be my guess. She knew it would be futile either because the full extent of her divinity would not carry over, or the clones themselves would have a compulsion to usurp the original, possibly both.

[Honest Tiefling]

So why haven't the baddies made clones of the good aligned gods? I mean, even without the divine rank, the gods are supposed to be pretty tough. And it'd be mucho confusing if Mystra shows up to your temple mid-sermon to her and stomps on the place.

[Psyren]

So why haven't the baddies made clones of the good aligned gods? I mean, even without the divine rank, the gods are supposed to be pretty tough. And it'd be mucho confusing if Mystra shows up to your temple mid-sermon to her and stomps on the place.

"Someone made a clone of me" is probably going to trigger every portfolio sense they have like a fire alarm. She will know months before you do it.

[Necroticplague]

"Someone made a clone of me" is probably going to trigger every portfolio sense they have like a fire alarm. She will know months before you do it.

But portfolio sense doesn't cover things related to the god, just their portfolio. Admittingly, in this case, since making her clone would probably involve some potent magic, it would trigger anyway.

[Psyren]

But portfolio sense doesn't cover things related to the god, just their portfolio. Admittingly, in this case, since making her clone would probably involve some potent magic, it would trigger anyway.

In addition to your white-text, Mystra IS the weave - anything that could potentially harm her or her job will impact her portfolio.

[Honest Tiefling]

Actually a better question is, why not make some duplicate weaves after that ToT thing? Through I must ask, how the crap did Bane and co. steal the Tablets of Fate without using magic? Wouldn't she have known about that one? I mean, if she did, jerk move not to tell anyone, lady!

[Darth Ultron]

So why haven't the baddies made clones of the good aligned gods? I mean, even without the divine rank, the gods are supposed to be pretty tough. And it'd be mucho confusing if Mystra shows up to your temple mid-sermon to her and stomps on the place.

Well, an evil god could make a god-clone of a good god. But what would be the point? They would just be making a clone of an enemy that would oppose them. The clone won't willing serve the evil god. And, sure, the evil god could charm/dominate/mind rape the clone...but then it is not ''really'' a clone of the original any more....it is just a close copy. The evil god could get the same effect by taking a 20th level wizard/cleric follower and saying ''go to that temple and say your Mystra".


Actually a better question is, why not make some duplicate weaves after that ToT thing? Through I must ask, how the crap did Bane and co. steal the Tablets of Fate without using magic? Wouldn't she have known about that one? I mean, if she did, jerk move not to tell anyone, lady!

You can't ''duplicate'' the Weave, the same way you can't duplicate Time. Also note Mystra IS the Weave. Bane and the others did use magic, but so? It's not like Mystra is all seeing and all knowing...

[Honest Tiefling]

But magic is her portfolio sense, so she knew this entire time who stole the dang things and instead went to go whine at her boyfriend.

And you CAN duplicate the Weave. Remember the Shadow Weave? Why not make one so if the first one fails due to another mild case of death the world isn't screwed over? Or...Just have a less death-prone god make a back-up?

[RolkFlameraven]

Been a while since I read the ToT books but I think I've got this mostly right.

Bane and Co stole them and I'm not even sure they needed to use magic to do it. Even if they did the tablets were not on the Prime and so the weave itself wasn't used so Mystra didn't know.

What she DID know was that the weave was going to be damaged and magic was going to be unreliable. She had known this for a LONG time. The chosen were created as circuit breakers for that day. El got most of the wave shoved into him as he as the first and 'greatest'.

Mystra also had an amulet that turned her back into at lest demigod status ready to go, a body to take over, even if it was a little girl AND Midnight as the backup plan if everything else went to hell, witch it of course did.

Midnight's own death on the other hand was so badly handled that Ed stated 'fixing' it almost the moment it happened.

[RolkFlameraven]

And you CAN duplicate the Weave. Remember the Shadow Weave? Why not make one so if the first one fails due to another mild case of death the world isn't screwed over? Or...Just have a less death-prone god make a back-up?

The Shadow weave is just that, the Shadow of the weave. Once the real weave was destroyed its dark twin was also destroyed. Shar had intended to take the wave over IIRC but couldn't as Mystra is a odd case. Killing her blows up her portfolio as she IS it, not just its steward like most.

There are other gods of magic, but only ONE god the weave. Shar and Cyric didn't take that into account when they killed her and tried to steal it and we got saddled with 4E :smallfrown:

[PlaygroundPixie]

Shar had intended to take the wave over IIRC but couldn't as Mystra is a odd case. Killing her blows up her portfolio as she IS it, not just its steward like most.

...Um, shouldn't Shar of all people have known this?

[RolkFlameraven]

As her 'grandmother' maybe. It was mostly done for 4E's new magic style. They had to, literally, blow up FR to make that work and so they did.

The moment Mystra died her plan, the Dweomerheart, died as well. And the gods on the plane didn't fair too well. Azuth ended up mostly dead in front of Asmodeus who then killed him, ate his godhead and became a god. Savras died right then and there and Velsharoon didn't fair much better though his death took some more time.

Both Shar and Cyric where on the Dweomerheart when it blew and part of Mystra lived on anyway. So Shar might have just miscalculated. Grater God she might be but she isn't infallible.

[Sith_Happens]

Uh, there's also the obvious reason:


Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life.

Sure unlike every other resurrection spell Clone doesn't repeat this rule, but it also doesn't exempt itself from it. Plus it does make repeated mention of the soul entering the clone, which 404s if the caster was an outsider at the time of death (because the soul isn't released to be able to enter the clone).

[Rubik]

Uh, there's also the obvious reason:



Sure unlike every other resurrection spell Clone doesn't repeat this rule, but it also doesn't exempt itself from it. Plus it does make repeated mention of the soul entering the clone, which 404s if the caster was an outsider at the time of death (because the soul isn't released to be able to enter the clone).Then Polymorph yourself into a Humanoid or something.

[Extra Anchovies]

It's also worth noting that Helm was still in possession of all of his divine abilities, while Mystra (along with everybody else cast down by Ao) was not. He presumably had some means of not only slaying the form she was inhabiting but also destroying her completely.

[Psyren]

The Shadow weave is just that, the Shadow of the weave. Once the real weave was destroyed its dark twin was also destroyed. Shar had intended to take the wave over IIRC but couldn't as Mystra is a odd case. Killing her blows up her portfolio as she IS it, not just its steward like most.

There are other gods of magic, but only ONE god the weave. Shar and Cyric didn't take that into account when they killed her and tried to steal it and we got saddled with 4E :smallfrown:

Goddammit Shar! *shakes fist*


...Um, shouldn't Shar of all people have known this?

She's a nihilist and more than a little crazy. It's likely she guessed that killing Mystra would destroy her own weave as well (and her chances of taking control of the real one were slim to none) and simply didn't care as both results were in her favor. And her partner in crime, Cyric, sure as hell wasn't going to be the voice of reason either.


It's also worth noting that Helm was still in possession of all of his divine abilities, while Mystra (along with everybody else cast down by Ao) was not. He presumably had some means of not only slaying the form she was inhabiting but also destroying her completely.

That was Mystra's death during the ToT, when all the gods except him were crammed into mortal forms. This is the event that kicked off 2e. Other folks above are referring to Mystra's death that caused the Spellplague, which kicked off 4e.

[Extra Anchovies]

That was Mystra's death during the ToT, when all the gods except him were crammed into mortal forms. This is the event that kicked off 2e. Other folks above are referring to Mystra's death that caused the Spellplague, which kicked off 4e.

Ah, it's Midnight-era Mystra. Sorry for the confusion. The FR wiki has a separate entry for the pre- and post-ToT Mystra, and that's where I learned most of what I know about the setting's lore.

This is slightly off-topic, but is there any mechanical support for the Children of the Starry Quill? The Knights of the Mystic Fire and the Order of the Shooting Star both have relevant substitution levels, but I don't know of their bardic cousins having any similar option.

[Psyren]

Ah, it's Midnight-era Mystra. Sorry for the confusion. The FR wiki has a separate entry for the pre- and post-ToT Mystra, and that's where I learned most of what I know about the setting's lore.

This is slightly off-topic, but is there any mechanical support for the Children of the Starry Quill? The Knights of the Mystic Fire and the Order of the Shooting Star both have relevant substitution levels, but I don't know of their bardic cousins having any similar option.

Sublime Chord? Lyric Thaumaturge? :smalltongue:

You may need a PrC rather than an ACF to represent them.

[Bronk]

Well.....gods don't work that way.

For example, the 8th level spell Clone does not copy the divine rank. It would just be silly to say a mortal spell can do that. And a god does not have ''flesh'' or a ''living body'', so they can't meet the requirements of the spell.

Could Mystra make an Epic Level spell: Clone God? Sure. But she does not really need too. A god can already make lots of ''clones'' of itself...known as avatars.

Much agreement!

Gods in DnD aren't normal beings... they're in a category by themselves. You can look in Deity's and Demigods and see that some have outsider levels and some don't. You can also look at the entry in the Epic Level Handbook for the Hunefer, that shows how mortals ascending to godhood shuck their old bodies, which become epic angry undead, while their soul becomes something new, the god, which was what happened to both Midnight Mystra and her predecessor Mystra.

The clone spell needs a living body and a soul. The soul is gone, transformed into the god. The body is an undead now, and would probably be pretty miffed if someone came to cut a chunk out of it.

Mystra would need crazy plot elements in order to come back, which I hear is what happened to her in later editions, but it's also what happened in previous editions with Bane, almost Moander, and so on.

[RolkFlameraven]

It did, she is back now and at full power as Magic in 5E is much closer to 3.5 then 4E could ever be.

Ed Greenwood, in like the very first book he ever wrote in the 4E world, started working on bring Mystra back to life with 'blue flame' weapons. Heck its how Mert is still running around despite the time skip! It took a long time, the Simbul's life and almost drove El (even more) insane but hay she is back right?

The really odd thing about this Mystra is she is more of an amalgam of both Mystra and Midnight Mystra (and possibly even Mystryl) and as I don't play 5E nor have had time to read the novels that about all I know, sorry.

[TrollCapAmerica]

The FR a place where Ed Greenwoods mary sue character sit around at epic levels still memorize spells like delayed blast fireball and disintegrate and like to pretend that some rinky dinky deity matters to the world that birth Pun-Pun

I wonder if Mordekainen sent Ellminster a ham or something

[Psyren]

I wonder if Mordekainen sent Ellminster a ham or something

Don't they get together and hang out sometimes? Along with that one guy from Dragonlance.

[BWR]

Don't they get together and hang out sometimes? Along with that one guy from Dragonlance.

Dalamar. Yes they did in the "Wizards three" series from Dragon. Since I stopped reading Dragon after the last printed issue I don't know if they still do it.

[Honest Tiefling]

Wasn't Dalamar a kinda shifty fellow who would stop at nothing to acquire more magic? Sounds like an odd choice of poker buddies for other mages if you ask me.

[BWR]

Wasn't Dalamar a kinda shifty fellow who would stop at nothing to acquire more magic? Sounds like an odd choice of poker buddies for other mages if you ask me.

He wants more power and isn't a threat to El or Mord. They are interested in more magic and patronize the lad. Seems like it should work.

[Keltest]

Wasn't Dalamar a kinda shifty fellow who would stop at nothing to acquire more magic? Sounds like an odd choice of poker buddies for other mages if you ask me.

High level mages get to do whatever they want to. Cross dimensional poker is just how they spend their Saturdays.

[Elderand]

Wasn't Dalamar a kinda shifty fellow who would stop at nothing to acquire more magic? Sounds like an odd choice of poker buddies for other mages if you ask me.

Nah, it's all because Mord is completely obssessed with balance. Mord is neutral, Elminster is Good so they had to get someone nominaly evil (Dalamar) or Mord would have had an aneurysm.

[Psyren]

Wasn't Dalamar a kinda shifty fellow who would stop at nothing to acquire more magic? Sounds like an odd choice of poker buddies for other mages if you ask me.

Trying to take on Elminster and especially Mord would end his career aspirations in dramatic fashion.

Now Raistlin, on the other hand...

[Honest Tiefling]

Threat to his life or not, I bet Ed still checked his lab and his bathroom to make sure nothing went missing. Also, does not do much to convince me he isn't a Mary Sue if he regularly invites baddies from other planes of dimension because look at his widdle spells, isn't he adorable?

[Psyren]

Didn't they meet in our world? No magic here to steal. Or am I mistaken?

[Honest Tiefling]

Sure. Meet in the world with the nukes. Invite your evil buddies who are willing to kill and steal for magic. This somehow seems like a worse idea.

[Elderand]

All 3 of them are sue, Dalamar just so happen to be the weakest sue (probably because he's a second generation sue to Raistlin)

[Psyren]

Sure. Meet in the world with the nukes. Invite your evil buddies who are willing to kill and steal for magic. This somehow seems like a worse idea.

Nukes? How adorable! You do know what these guys are capable of right? :smalltongue:


All 3 of them are sue, Dalamar just so happen to be the weakest sue (probably because he's a second generation sue to Raistlin)

He was practically Raistlin's whipping boy IIRC.

[Honest Tiefling]

Nukes? How adorable! You do know what these guys are capable of right? :smalltongue:

Good point, but I fear what would happen should Dalamar be able to combine the two. Like some sort of...Nuclear bomb golem or something.

...Okay. I'm not much of an optimizer, but I would think there has to be a few tricks one could do with technology and magic combined. Also, Dalamar could just use it in Kyrnn and ignore these two as they get him the means to conquer it.

[RolkFlameraven]

IIRC they 'played' at Ed's own house and El was a massive Troll to Ed about it too. Something about hiding inside a suit of armor or something?

Raistlin showed up one or twice as did some chick... and Bigby once... I think, its been a long time.

Anyway who cares? We are talking about the biggest Sue's who ever Sue'ed playing poker in a barn house in Canada what isn't to like?

[Honest Tiefling]

So these super powerful mages pick...A barn house. Of all places. Did they get lost, or something?

[Clistenes]

Nukes? How adorable! You do know what these guys are capable of right? :smalltongue:

Among other things, they would be able to use Locate Object to find Uranium, bind Earth Elementals to mine it, and use Fabricate to instantly create nukes from raw materials. So BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD idea to even let them learn about them.


Nah, it's all because Mord is completely obssessed with balance. Mord is neutral, Elminster is Good so they had to get someone nominaly evil (Dalamar) or Mord would have had an aneurysm.

I don't understand why some characters care about Balance. I can believe some characters would fight to make the world a better place, and that others enjoy provoking suffering or just are willing to do anything for power and money, but, why would anybody fight to achieve a Balance? "The number of murders and rapes in this city has descended dramatically last year, the place is close to becoming LG! Grab the carving knives, tonight we restore BALANCE!!"

I can understand doing it if the world can self-destruct or something if it becomes to unbalanced, like in the Dragonlance setting, but then the people trying to keep Balance hardest wouldn't be neutrals like Mordenkainen, but the good ones (again, like in Krynn, were Paladine is the one doing the hard lifting to restore Balance while the neutral deities sit on their hands).

[Psyren]

Among other things, they would be able to use Locate Object to find Uranium, bind Earth Elementals to mine it, and use Fabricate to instantly create nukes from raw materials. So BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD idea to even let them learn about them.

And how exactly do you keep them from learning anything?

Even without any divinations, they are rocking upwards of 25 Int apiece. This is far beyond genius level. They know more about uranium than we do.

[Elderand]

And how exactly do you keep them from learning anything?

Even without any divinations, they are rocking upwards of 25 Int apiece. This is far beyond genius level. They know more about uranium than we do.

Who'se to say uranium even exist in their world ? or that magic is able to create it ? It's not entirely unreasonable to say that physics and magic work very differently in dnd than what you'd expect from the real world.

[Clistenes]

And how exactly do you keep them from learning anything?

Even without any divinations, they are rocking upwards of 25 Int apiece. This is far beyond genius level. They know more about uranium than we do.

I'm quite sure that Pythagoras, Archimedes of Syracuse, Leonardo Da Vinci, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler and Isaac Newton were all way more intelligent than I am, but I still know more about nukes than they did.

And, as Elderand said, there may not be Uranium in their world. Oerth is part of a geocentric planetary system inside a crystal ball whose sun, Liga, is powered by portals to the Plane of Fire and cooled by portals to the Plane of Water.

[Psyren]

But there are canonically people and even tech from our world that has ended up in FR/Greyhawk. (Not sure about Dragonlance.) Also you skipped over the divinations thing.

Yeah, I just don't see "oh noes they might learn about uranium" as being particularly relevant.

[Elderand]

But there are canonically people and even tech from our world that has ended up in FR/Greyhawk. (Not sure about Dragonlance.) Also you skipped over the divinations thing.

Divination might or might not help. Divination is useless whitout a starting point. It's difficult for your average wizard to learn about uranium if it doesn't exist in their world and the physics don't allow for it's existance and they never came across a piece of technology hinting at the possibility.

If you're so ignorant you don't even know to ask the question divination isn't going to help.

It's dependent on too many factor to simply assume what these guys might or might not know.

[Frostthehero]

If she had clones, or an epic spell of the sort, we would not have a story. That's why.

[Psyren]

Divination might or might not help. Divination is useless whitout a starting point. It's difficult for your average wizard to learn about uranium if it doesn't exist in their world and the physics don't allow for it's existance and they never came across a piece of technology hinting at the possibility.

If you're so ignorant you don't even know to ask the question divination isn't going to help.

Some divinations (e.g. Legend Lore) can even recover information nobody actually knows. And gods and other beings see multiple worlds too. And don't get me started on the number of gods whose portfolio sense would ping if somebody brought nukes over, so they know about it too.



It's dependent on too many factor to simply assume what these guys might or might not know.

We agree on that much at least :smalltongue:

[Elderand]

Some divinations (e.g. Legend Lore) can even recover information nobody actually knows. And gods and other beings see multiple worlds too. And don't get me started on the number of gods whose portfolio sense would ping if somebody brought nukes over, so they know about it too.

None of which matter if you have no idea you could tap those source of information in the first place. You still need to know to ask the question.

[Psyren]

None of which matter if you have no idea you could tap those source of information in the first place. You still need to know to ask the question.

Eh, I can think of a lot of common questions that could end with "nukes" if they were looking to start a conflict. And if they're not, then there is no danger in them coming to our world since they won't be asking those questions anyway.

[Elderand]

Eh, I can think of a lot of common questions that could end with "nukes" if they were looking to start a conflict. And if they're not, then there is no danger in them coming to our world since they won't be asking those questions anyway.

And all of those questions occurs to you because nukes and physics are thing. And you're working backward from the answer so the questions seems evident.

But when you can't work backward and physics are aristotelian the number of questions that can lead to "nuke" as an answer will be infinitesimal.

[Psyren]

And all of those questions occurs to you because nukes and physics are thing. And you're working backward from the answer so the questions seems evident.

But when you can't work backward and physics are aristotelian the number of questions that can lead to "nuke" as an answer will be infinitesimal.

Nah, even basic curiosity gets you there. "How would a nation in a dead-magic plane wage war without any wizards?" could reveal just about every one of our major conflicts, and nukes would definitely be major. You'll also note that no physics knowledge is required.