E6 "Optimization"

[graeylin]

What general advice would you give for E6 optimization? Does the standard "Play a Wizard" or "Play a druid" still rule the order here, if everything is capped at Sixth Level?

Are there other tricks that are typically subpar, for 20 level builds, that hold their own at E6 (for instance, dipping)? Given the limited amount of feats in six levels, do things like Domain Powers increase in strength?

For example, I could certainly see the Travel Domain Freedom of movement being very worthwhile... one of those abilities that doesn't always come up, but certainly good to not slot a precious spell slot, or spend a lot of money on an item for it. Or gluttony, and the enlarge, or summon, for the +2 CL.

Do class abilities matter more? Is dipping stronger? or weaker? Is it still better to have a straight 6, than a 4/2, or a 4/1/1?

[A_S]

Does the standard "Play a Wizard" or "Play a druid" still rule the order here, if everything is capped at Sixth Level?
The tiers are definitely still more-or-less in place, but they're not quite as spread out as they are in higher level play.

Even with only level 3 spells, Wizards have access to a lot of encounter-enders, and they still of course have the ability to decide which encounter-enders to prepare every morning. That's as good at level 6 as it is at level 20. They are, however, missing a lot of the most broken things high-level Wizards can do (extreme action-economy manipulation, being immune to everything, doing melee better than actual melee via Polymorph).

Druids are extremely strong in E6 because level 6 is a bit of a power peak for them (you've just gotten Wildshape and Natural Spell).


Are there other tricks that are typically subpar, for 20 level builds, that hold their own at E6 (for instance, dipping)? Given the limited amount of feats in six levels, do things like Domain Powers increase in strength?
As for tricks that are normally sub-par but better in E6, it's mostly things that are effective but run into problems with immunities. Fear and Enchantment are two that come to mind, because at high levels, you can expect basically everything to be immune to them, whereas those immunities are less common early in the game. Of course, you still have to worry about entire creature types that are immune to your schtick, but it's not quite as bad as it is in the full game.

Domain Powers...I dunno, they're mostly not good on their own anyway, they're just ways to get stuff you need in a build, in my experience.


Do class abilities matter more?
Class features are extremely important in both E6 and standard play. Not sure what you're getting at there.


Is dipping stronger? or weaker? Is it still better to have a straight 6, than a 4/2, or a 4/1/1?
This is always going to depend on the build; no way to give a general answer. If dips give you stronger class features than what you would have gotten sticking in a class to 6, then they're good. If there's something amazing at 6, they're not. A couple things worth noting, though, are that you have to have all high-BAB classes to get your first iterative (which makes stuff like Cleric dips on melee less good), and spontaneous casters can't lose any caster levels without losing access to level 3 spells. So that makes some kinds of dips much weaker, but you'll definitely still see stuff like dipping Barbarian for Pounce, and it's still very strong.

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As for other things, there are a few classes that are much better in E6 than in standard play, because they fall off badly at high levels. Duskblades own (only one spell level behind Wizards at level 6, full BAB, and channeling is better because you have less attacks to miss out on with a full attack). Mystic Ranger, if it's allowed, is straight up broken. The full-list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage) are very strong if you let them use Versatile Spellcaster to get level 4 spell access. Monks are a bit less terrible than usual, since the first six levels are when they get class features that don't suck (the lack of full BAB is pretty rough though).

There are also some that just suck. Fighters are awful in E6, because their only class feature is feats, and you get a bajillion feats after you hit 6. Bards don't do super well, because the level 6 cutoff happens to be right before they get level 3 spells and Inspire Courage +2. Trying to make a gish out of anything besides a pure-class Duskblade is an exercise in frustration.

[EugeneVoid]

Wizard Rangers is my best bet. Something Sword of the Arcane Order + Something I don't entirely remember.

[gorfnab]

Druid and Wizard can be overshadowed in E6 by Ranger.

Mystic Ranger 6 (Drg #336)
Wildshape ACF - UA
Trapfinding ACF - DS
Arcane Hunter ACF - CM
Feats: Magical Training (PGtF), Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), Sword of the Arcane Order (CoV)

What you get: BAB 6, D8 HD all the way up, 3rd level ranger/wizard spells, very useful favored enemy (arcanists), wildshape, trapfinding, and a pseudo animal companion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It really depends on what you want to make, but it's a bit more difficult to mess up a single-class character, and it's extremely easy to end up with a worthless pile of classes.

Level adjusted races and templates are significantly different in E6. A level adjustment doesn't count toward your ECL, instead it reduces your point buy for your starting ability scores. Race optimization is a huge deal for E6 characters, but more on that later.

The go-to powerful character is actually a Ranger, but only if you use the Mystic Ranger variant (Dragon 336) with the Wild Shape variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) and get the feat Sword of the Arcane Order. That ends up with a Ranger 6 who has the wild shape of a Druid 6 and 0-3rd level spell slots (3/3/2/1 plus bonus spells) that you can use to prepare Wizard spells. With Extra Wild Shape you can spend 24 hours per day in the form of a Fleshraker dinosaur, and of course you'll want Natural Spell. You can use a Frostblood Half-Orc in Dragon Magic for your race, which gets Endurance as a racial bonus feat with a clause stating if you would get Endurance later you can instead pick any feat you qualify for in its place. Since Mystic Ranger delays your bonus Endurance feat to 4th level, you can take Sword of the Arcane Order instead.

E6 gives you an extra feat every 5,000 xp past 6th level, so you're not going to have any shortage of feats. Since the only ways for a character to grow once they hit 6th level is in feats and items, any necessary item effects (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) you get from class features will begin to lose value beyond 6th level.

You'll probably only be able to get a single level of a prestige class on a spellcaster by 6th level, with only a few exceptions (Church Inquisitor, Master Specialist). Most spellcasting classes don't offer much for not taking a prestige class, so keep an eye out for prestige classes that are extremely good for dipping a single level (Mindbender, Paragnostic Apostle). If you're going for a prepared caster you'll have 3rd level spells at its 5th level, and can afford to lose a single caster level, so I'll typically recommend going Beguiler 1/ [Prepared Casting Class + PrCs] 5, and take the feat Versatile Spellcaster which allows you to spend two 0-level or 1st-level Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast any 1st or 2nd level spell you know, including from the other class's list. You can also pick up Able Learner and easily keep up your ranks in all those amazing Beguiler class skills.

There are also shenanigans you can do. For example, a Dread Necromancer 6 with Versatile Spellcaster can spend two 3rd level spell slots to cast a 4th level spell, such as Enervation, and in a game where nothing with class levels has more than 6 HD, that can be very potent. You can cast two Sanctum, Twinned, Lesser Rod of Maximized, Split Ray, Ocular, Fortified, Arcane Thesis, Enervations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?160998-Optimize-or-Die-Playgrounders!-E6-Balor-Challenge-Thread/page3#87) and store them in your eyes, an then within the next eight hours as a full-round action you can release both of those to fire four rays at up to four separate targets, each of which deals eight negative levels.

If you're making a character of a ToB class, you probably want to go 1/ [other classes] 2/ [Initiator] 3, which still gets you 3rd level maneuvers. For example, a Warblade 1/ Wolf Totem Lion Spirit Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/ Warblade 3 is going to have a lot more options than a Warblade 6. Fighter 2 with Dungeoncrasher is also quite good.

Regarding race optimization, it's fairly easy to find a race that gets [i]all the right stats so your reduced point buy won't matter. For example, a Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) Half-Goristro (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) would have 0 point buy, so his ability scores are all 8 + racial modifier. That gets you Str 28, Dex 6, Con 20, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 8, +8 natural armor, two slams that both hit for your full attack bonus and deal 2d6+1.5 Str and each count as two-handed weapons for Power Attack. Plus the spell-like abilities, resistances, immunities, DR, SR, and the outsider creature type. You could go Fighter 6 with Dungeoncrasher and Knock-Back and use the E6 Fighter capstone to get Melee Weapon Mastery for your slams, or use the above Warblade/Barbarian level build and get a third slam attack when you full attack with Whirling Frenzy.

Another example of race optimization is the Marrulurk from Sandstorm, which is a spectacular choice if you're going for a Rogue type of character. It has a +1 LA and 3 HD that give full BAB, 2d6 sneak attack, death attack, and many other benefits. For one more point of LA you can get one level of the Half-Fiend template class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a), using this variant (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) and basing it on a Babau (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#babau) to gain all its listed skills as class skills for your racial HD, and per the skills entry of the Half-Fiend template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) you get Outsider skill points for your racial HD. So those three racial HD will basically give you everything a Rogue 3 would have but with better BAB, HD, and base saves, plus you'll have two claw attacks at your full BAB so you don't even need to worry about getting a +6 BAB.

Then there's super-duper shenanigans, which only works if your group has favorable rulings on what Kobolds can and can't qualify for. A Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and one flaw, at Wizard 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1, has Wizard 9 spellcasting, and automatically knows eight 2nd, eight 3rd, eight 4th, and four 4th level spells, which are written on his scales so there's no risk of losing his spellbook. He also has a +3 BAB, base saves +3/+1/+8, and 2d4+4d8+4 hp not counting his Con bonus, plus bonus proficiencies from Sorcerer and even Abrupt Jaunt from Wizard, and he can get Mindsight in Lords of Madness. He can have Enchantment as a prohibited school and use his Draconic Rite of Passage for Charm Person to still qualify for Mindbender. Granted you could do this in a non-E6 game, but having a Wizard 9 in a setting where nobody is above 6th level is extremely potent. You would be the only one in the setting (other than Nagas, very old dragons, powerful outsiders, etc.) who could cast Teleport, Fabricate, Wall of Stone, and Transmute Rock to Mud, for example. This would actually make an unbelievably dangerous BBEG, considering Greater Invisibility and Black Tentacles would almost certainly be among his repertoire.

One last thing to keep in mind is that E6 has a limited magic item list, but it's not at all accurate because it doesn't take the DMG errata into consideration. An item's caster level is not a prerequisite for creating it, an item's caster level when created is determined by the creator, with a minimum of what's required to meet the item's prerequisites. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions) For example, a weapon with the Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#speed) special property would have a caster level of 7th if discovered as loot, but a Wizard 5 with Craft Magic Arms/Armor could make one with a caster level of 5th, so it could easily exist in an E6 game. Additionally, caster levels of spell-like abilities can be used to meet prerequisites for item creation feats and for making magic items, so there are plenty of monsters that could take Craft Rod, Forge Ring, Craft Staff, etc. and create items that require higher caster levels than 6th. Dragons, Lammasus, Nagas, powerful outsiders, etc. have spellcasting beyond 6th level and would be able to create magic items more powerful than any PC would be capable of. A Midgard Dwarf in Frostburn can make any magical ring, arms/armor, and wondrous item that's ever been printed, including epic magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicMagicItems.htm) and artifacts of those item types.

[ahenobarbi]

Get access to higher level spells. Wizard 6, take Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, Heighten Spell. Prepare spell heightened to 3rd level in your sanctum, standing on the ground. It's level 5 spell so when you take Extra Spell feat it will give you 4th level slot. Repeat untill you get slot of the level you want. Także Extra Spell(might have misremembered mamę of the feat) feat, enjoy having books thrown at you.

[Drork]

There are a few things to remember when optimizing in E6. Firstly your abilities will not progress as far. You get a 4th level +1 and that is all. Make sure you know what attributes you need for the feats you would like.

Skill points are maxed out at level 6 meaning 9 ranks is max. This increases the value of skill focus and the +2 to 2 skill feats. These are very rarely looked at for a 20th level optimization.
UMD is amazing as always if you can max it and focus in it.

HD is capped at level 6, Toughness is worth considering although there are other feats out there that are the same but better now days.

Saves are capped, dont forget those useless save feats you never take.

Spells are limited, items that let you make better use of your spells or pearls that give you more casts per day are very strong (although they are strong in 20L builds as well)

When picking a class, there is a big difference between things make sure you focus on the differences at your level 6. The points I focus on are BAB, spell level/casts, saves (never forget saves) potential prestige classes and if the limited amount you get of them worth it.
Do not forget class substitution levels.

[ShurikVch]

Darklight Wizard (Villain Design Handbook)
Feat Rogue 6/Darklight Wizard 6
By entering the Darklight Wizard PrC, you lose all your previous levels, but keep skills and feats.
Darklight Wizard have full BAB, and at 6th level can cast 6th level spells.
Spell list is tiny, so don't forget about the Corrupt spells :smallwink:
Also, 5th level gives you Animate Dead at-will

[Tvtyrant]

It has much the same ceiling as d&d 3.5, but the floors are closer together. With groups willing to self moderate it is better balanced, with optimizers you might as well play the full game.

[Extra Anchovies]

Druid and Wizard can be overshadowed in E6 by Ranger.

Mystic Ranger 6 (Drg #336)
Wildshape ACF - UA
Trapfinding ACF - DS
Arcane Hunter ACF - CM
Feats: Magical Training (PGtF), Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), Sword of the Arcane Order (CoV)

What you get: BAB 6, D8 HD all the way up, 3rd level ranger/wizard spells, very useful favored enemy (arcanists), wildshape, trapfinding, and a pseudo animal companion.

This. MR is probably the single best E6 chassis. Also, instead of Wild Cohort, you could pick up Obtain Familiar for a smaller but more utility-heavy friend.

Personally, I'm also a fan of the Knight of the Weave build (especially if your DM allows you to retrain your first character level, since it qualifies entirely through feats), but it depends on flaws and is thus probably not allowed in most E6 games. Are there any ways to get A) a total of four feats or B) ability to cast 3rd-level spells, as a first-level character, without using flaws? The best I've been able to come up with is a human with Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, Heighten Spell (flaw), and Sanctum Spell (flaw).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This. MR is probably the single best E6 chassis. Also, instead of Wild Cohort, you could pick up Obtain Familiar for a smaller but more utility-heavy friend.

Personally, I'm also a fan of the Knight of the Weave build (especially if your DM allows you to retrain your first character level, since it qualifies entirely through feats), but it depends on flaws and is thus probably not allowed in most E6 games. Are there any ways to get A) a total of four feats or B) ability to cast 3rd-level spells, as a first-level character, without using flaws? The best I've been able to come up with is a human with Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, Heighten Spell (flaw), and Sanctum Spell (flaw).

Knight of the Weave does have skill prerequisites, there's no way you could take it earlier than 2nd level, so there shouldn't ever be any retraining your first character level to it.

An Illumian Duskblade 1 with one flaw to get Sanctum Spell and Improved Sigil: Krau can take Knight of the Weave at 2nd level. Duskblade 1/ Knight of the Weave 5 isn't bad at all, you have +6 BAB with 3rd level spells and two good saves.

[Extra Anchovies]

Knight of the Weave does have skill prerequisites, there's no way you could take it earlier than 2nd level, so there shouldn't ever be any retraining your first character level to it.

Sorry, I missed the skill prerequisites. Thanks for catching them.


An Illumian Duskblade 1 with one flaw to get Sanctum Spell and Improved Sigil: Krau can take Knight of the Weave at 2nd level. Duskblade 1/ Knight of the Weave 5 isn't bad at all, you have +6 BAB with 3rd level spells and two good saves.

Hm. Only +4 BAB (KotW is average, not full), but still pretty good. Also, I think you'd still need two flaws, because Sanctum Spell has "one other metamagic feat" as a prerequisite.

[DrKerosene]

I only have two resources, that I don't think have been shared yet. This compilation of low-level builds, some may not be legal in an E6 game.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1444.0

Also, this E6 handbook that starts off listing overpowered things. It has some houserules about entering prestige classes earlier.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1smaDwIFcucln_B-PACnGh35-oowQJOIm7Ie8yRfeBuU/mobilebasic?pli=1

[graeylin]

thanks everyone for the advice!

[Gemini476]

Some more fun notes:

An Elven GeneralistRotW Domain WizardUA can ladder their way up to 9th level spells pretty easily with the Versatile Spellcaster feat and Spontaneous Divination. You might need to boost your caster level through the roof via prestige classes and copious amounts of feats, though, if you run with the whole "minimum CL17 to cast 9th-level spells" thing. Also I suppose that some people won't like combining variant classes with substitution levels but that goes for a lot of stuff.
Oh yeah, and you'll probably mostly be limited to your domain spells for the higher levels unless you research some new ones yourself.


A SylphMM2 casts spells as a Sorcerer of it's HD+4. It has 3HD and got LA+5 in the 3.5 update, so you can stick an additional two Sorcerer levels in there to end up with an effective sorcerer level of 9. That's better casting than anything with the word "spellhoard" in its description!


Artificers can craft scrolls of 4th-level spells.


(Also, note that the monsters in an E6 world will generally be weaker as well - the official rules of the variant (or what there are of them) suggest that monsters with a base CR higher than 12 should be mostly avoided. This means that the strongest draconic spellcasters in core that a party could expect to encounter would be adult brass dragons with CL9 and 4th-level spells! Monsters with higher CR probably still exist, of course, it's just that you're not expected to take them on in a straight fight.)

[graeylin]

I am not sure how to get 3HD and LA+5 into an E6 build, but it sounds... hard.

I thought +4 was the highest you could go in the rules.

[Gemini476]

I am not sure how to get 3HD and LA+5 into an E6 build, but it sounds... hard.

I thought +4 was the highest you could go in the rules.
Yeah, a lot of the weirder tricks you can pull of in E6 require you to interpret the rules a bit. For example, does an LA greater than 4 just turn into 0 point buy +1LA? Can a class variant be combined with an ACF or substitution level of its non-variant, like a Wildshaping Mystic Ranger or Elven Generalist Domain Wizard or Stalwart Battle Sorcerer? Does Heighten+Versatile Spellcaster work, and do you even need Heighten? Are Dragonwrought Kobolds True Dragons? What is the minimum caster level of a spell?

[TiaC]

Another class that can be great in E6 is the Wilder. Their schtick is that they get more powerful powers, but don't know very many. Well, in E6 that's easy enough to get around. If you play with Wild Surge +3 as a capstone feat for them, they get really broken.

[Urpriest]

Master of Shrouds is pretty cool in E6. I like Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Master of Shrouds 2, but it does require a rather specific sort of religious organization. Otherwise, Dread Necro 1/Cleric 2/Master of Shrouds 3 works, it just doesn't get 3rds.

[gorfnab]

Generic Classes from UA can allow for some early entry prestige class options.

Generic Expert 1/ Silver Key (DMark) 5 - SR 20 is a great thing to have in E6. Load up on Dragonmark feats for the nice boost to CL since levels in Silver Key counts as dragonmark heir

Generic Expert or Warrior 1/ Thief of Life (FoE) 5 - choose Azuran for race and load up Incarnum feats.

Savage Species monster class progression can be amusing in E6 especially Ghaele and Trumpet Archon.

[Eskil]

The Shadow Creature template in Lords of Madness can get you Plane Shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) (to and from the plane of shadow) at caster level 15 for LA +2 (in addition to cold resistance, a speed increase and the Shadow Blend ability.)

This and the Astral Caravan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralCaravan.htm) Psion (Nomad) power, are two ways to travel the planes under your own power in E6.