Just how powerful is Xykon?

[Atheist_Cleric]

In the most recent strip (which was brilliant btw, I loved the look on Roy's face when Xykon was mocking him), it looked like Xykon had taken literally no damage from Roy throughout their encounter. Now, some have been saying that Roy has been attacking the Dragon, but given that Roy was compaining about Xykon not fighting back, and that destroying the dragon would mean a plummeting death, im doubting that. So if Roy, a level...what, 13, 14? Fighter with a +5 greatsword with a undead-killing energy attack that he has used several times, has been attacking Xykon for a fair few rounds now with no visible effect, what does that mean?

I mean, me and my D&D group have always played 2nd edition, so im not really that familiar with the newer versions rules, but isnt a lich a Spellcaster? Hence, someone with a not too great AC? I mean, he's wearing a robe for crying out loud, and Roy hasnt even been able to cut IT, let alone the lich. Is Xykon using spells to absorb the damage? Or is he just so powerful that even with all of Roy's improvements, he's unable to hurt him without a big gate rune?

If you ask me, Roy should have gotten that Disruption buff from Durkon before he jumped aboard the dragon zombie...

What do you think?

[BisectedBrioche]

He was attacking the dragon, not Xykon.

[Silverlocke980]

Xykion is really strong. Lich are among the strongest undead (I'd even argue a demi-lich is about the toughest undead, but I digress), and high-level undead in general are hard to take down. It's not like you can poke their eyes out, after all.

Still, I can't believe he's so high level that Roy's weapon ain't hurting him. Maybe he's got some sort of undead-heal that he's been casting every round that Roy thinks he's "not fighting"?

Possible! Though unlikely.

[cavalier973]

I'm not sure that Roy has been on the dragon that long. He may have only had time enough for three or four swings of the sword. Besides, he's spent some time talking with Xykon rather than fighting him.

[SPoD]

If you're not familiar with 3rd Edition, you should know that Xykon has something called Damage Reduction—specifically, Damage Reduction 15/magic and bludgeoning. That means that for every single attack Roy makes, Xykon ignores the first 15 points of damage unless it comes from a weapon that is both magical (which Roy's sword may not be; it's made of starmetal, which gives it a natural +5 to hit and damage, but it's not necessarily enchanted) and bludgeoning (which Roy's sword definitely is not). Since Roy probably only does 20 points of damage on a hit (or maybe 30 if his sword really is undead-bane), then Xykon isn't taking much damage from him at all. Undead have d12 Hit Dice, so Xykon probably has around 120 hp if he's 20th level.

Further, AC doesn't have much to do with armor at high levels. A 20th level sorcerer with a lich's natural armor bonus probably has a very good AC, regardless of wearing robes. And the robes might be providing a magical armor bonus anyway.

[brian c]

If you're not familiar with 3rd Edition, you should know that Xykon has something called Damage Reduction—specifically, Damage Reduction 15/magic and bludgeoning. That means that for every single attack Roy makes, Xykon ignores the first 15 points of damage unless it comes from a weapon that is both magical (which Roy's sword may not be; it's made of starmetal, which gives it a natural +5 to hit and damage, but it's not necessarily enchanted) and bludgeoning (which Roy's sword definitely is not). Since Roy probably only does 20 points of damage on a hit (or maybe 30 if his sword really is undead-bane), then Xykon isn't taking much damage from him at all. Undead have d12 Hit Dice, so Xykon probably has around 120 hp if he's 20th level.

Further, AC doesn't have much to do with armor at high levels. A 20th level sorcerer with a lich's natural armor bonus probably has a very good AC, regardless of wearing robes. And the robes might be providing a magical armor bonus anyway.


As far as D&D rules are concerned, if you have a "+5 sword", then it's magical and it overcomes magical damage reduction. And this is minor nitpicking, but the average of 20d12 is 130 hp.

[Avatar God]

But it applies unless the weapon is magical and bludgeoning, and Roy's sword only meets one of the two requirements, right?

Not that I remember the strip telling us that, but hey, it's 441 strips long :smallsmile:

[SteveMB]

But it applies unless the weapon is magical and bludgeoning, and Roy's sword only meets one of the two requirements, right?
Even if he decides that it's time to use it to batter things into submission (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) instead of chopping them up?

[Kreistor]

Some people think that Starmetal allows Roy to overcome the DR of any undead, regardless of type. There is precedent for this in the Eberron campaign setting, where some materials do work like that. The Starmetal fix may just be a plot device to allow the hero to hurt the villain, and nothing more.

[Silverlocke980]

Actually, the Starmetal fix was a hilarious, ridiculous quest they had to go through that just happened to have a bonus at the end. :)

I love that quest (or the ending, at least).

I'd argue that, since Roy is wielding a greatsword, he could theoretically wield it as a bludgeon (those are some pretty big swords!). Still, his damage would get reduced considerably.

Bypassing that fifteen points of DR would be a huge help, though!

[Elliot Kane]

I think Roy has been attacking the dragon, honestly.

[Brat-t]

I think Roy must also be taking some huge to hit penaltys when trying to attack while maintaining his balance on the neck of a dragon in flight.

[The Extinguisher]

Remember, this is going on at the same time as the other stuff in the comic right now, so he hasn't been up there for very long, and Xkyon is easily epic level (which was confirmed by the spells he has casted and required lich levels) so he's pretty freaking tough to boot.
I'm surprised Roy has lasted this long in the first place.

As for his sword, it's not undead bane, as it is only the green light, and it hurts others as well (see: Sabine in 349 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html)) I think that the green light thing just does extra damage, which falls under the "particullary harmful to the undead", which doesn't just mean undead only.

[Spiky]

Roy only made one attack on Xykon, the rest are on the dragon, although that one attack looked pretty strong with the green glow and Xykon's reaction. He is apparently trying to take Xykon down (to the ground) before trying to take him down (to defeat).

And besides, Xykon has no blood to show cuts. It would have to be a special bit of damage to show anything on him in this comic. Like breaking something off.

[Sky_Schemer]

I think Roy must also be taking some huge to hit penaltys when trying to attack while maintaining his balance on the neck of a dragon in flight.

Durkon cast Freedom of Movement on him.

[Threeshades]

Durkon cast Freedom of Movement on him.

how long does it last?

[jindra34]

how long does it last?

10 min./lvl aka enough time that roy will fall before it runs out...

[factotum]

And besides, Xykon has no blood to show cuts. It would have to be a special bit of damage to show anything on him in this comic. Like breaking something off.

The Death Knight was showing signs of damage in the last strip, so it's not like the Giant isn't capable of showing that a skeletal being has taken damage--that suggests that Xykon simply hasn't been harmed yet, or at least not enough for visible signs to show up.

[Forrestfire]

it's made of starmetal, which gives it a natural +5 to hit and damage

acually, to quote complete arcane:


"Starmetal is exraordinarily hard, and is equal to adamantine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#adamantine) for all purposes, including overcoming damage reduction or granting damage reduction when used in armor construction. Starmetal also posseses an inherent connection to the material plane, meaning that weapons made of the alloy are especially effective against creatures from other planes. Weapons made from starmetal deal an extra 1d6 damage to any extraplaner creatures while they are on the material plane."

so it is only a +1 bonus to attack rolls, and no bonus to damage rolls.

[Assassinfox]

Well, there's no denying it now. After taking all those swings at Xykon, all Roy managed to do was put a crack in his skull and make him mad.

EDIT: And mess up his robe a bit.

[SPoD]

acually, to quote complete arcane:

so it is only a +1 bonus to attack rolls, and no bonus to damage rolls.

Irrelevent. The properties of OOTS starmetal have nothing in common with those of whatever book that is. Rich almost never references non-core material anyway. Comic #297 spells out exactly what the starmetal sword has, and it's +5 to hit and damage, with a randomly-activating energy effect that does extra damage to undead.

[Nitan]

He most likely has unholy toughness or something like that to boost his health.

He's taken damage but nothing noticeable until the end. Xykon got a crack in his skull so Roy didn't do nothing. Just close to nothing.

[nothingclever]

Xykon is clearly level 20+ since if Roy's level 13 and Xykon is 7 or 8 levels higher he'd be 20-21. I'd figure Xykon is probably right with his estimate since he does seem much stronger and is capable of casting a ninth level spell, Meteor Swarm.
It's clear Roy also only swung at him in the latest comic. It's best to assume Roy didn't hit Xykon at all off screen between comics since this is the only time we actually see him swinging at him instead of talking or hitting the dragon and Xykon getting injured.

[Assassinfox]

It's clear Roy also only swung at him in the latest comic.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html

Look at the first and last panels there.

[TRM]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Meteor Swarm is a 9th level spell. Meaning that Xykon must be at least level 17 to be able to cast it, plus the CR adjustment for being a lich (whatever that is). So at least CR 17. Likely more.

[Arbitrarity]

He's a sorceror, so 18. Lich is +2, so 20.

Yep, CR 20. ECL 22.

Roy, you're a moron.

[Setra]

He is powerful enough.

[elliott20]

or maybe Xykon has cast Stone Skin prior to entering combat.

[the_tick_rules]

well with no flesh to damage artisitcly rendering that damage would be hard, lich's do havr dr 15/bludgeon though we dunno if Rich is incorporating that. but an undead sorcerer of 20, Possibly more levels, with d4 hit die and no con has what 70 hp give or take, so a few things that get by his DR and he's toast

[Eomir]

Tick, Xykon is an undead, meaning that he uses d12's for hit die not d4's

[GoC]

Going by how the death knight looked just before he died I'd guess Xykon lost less than 1/5 of his hp after over five hits of a +5 greatsword that specializes is very harmful vs. undead!
I'm beginning to think Xykon is epic...

[BobTheDog]

Assuming Xykon is lvl 20, and Roy swung at him about 10 times, hitting half, for around 7 damage (after DR), we have:

130 HP (average for a lvl 20 lich)
-35 HP (average hits Roy got through)
------
95 HP

I'd say Xykon has no need to be much worried.

Now, on the other hand:

110 HP (Average for a lvl 13 fighter with 14 CON)
-30 HP (Resisted Finger of Death)
-110 HP (Average for Meteor Swarm)
-------
-30 HP

Ouch!

[jindra34]

Going by how the death knight looked just before he died I'd guess Xykon lost less than 1/5 of his hp after over five hits of a +5 greatsword that specializes is very harmful vs. undead!
I'm beginning to think Xykon is epic...

Xykon has pretty much stated that he is epic...

[nothingclever]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html

Look at the first and last panels there.
That doesn't totally even look like he really hit him but then again people rarely look like are contacting with Roy's sword when he swings since it's a 2d comic. Then again he didn't get an easy to count slash mark like in the latest comic so he really might not have hit him at all. It'd still only be one extra attack anyway and Xykon has damage reduction so if Roy was wielding a starmetal greatclub instead the turn out might be completely different. I don't think one confirmed full round attack with one of the worst weapons possible for the situation is an accurate indication of how durable Xykon is.

See here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html
:tongue:

Look at panels 13 to 17 there.

[Assassinfox]

That doesn't totally even look like he really hit him but then again people rarely look like are contacting with Roy's sword when he swings since a 2d comic. Then again he didn't get an easy to count slash mark like in the latest comic so he really might not have hit him at all.

See here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html
:tongue:

Those don't look like he's actually "hitting" him either. Roy could've hit Xykon in the head the previous two times, leaving no scratches on Xykon's robe.

[Mewtarthio]

Either way, it hardly matters: Roy was completely outclassed. As stated above, Xykon cast a ninth-level spell, making him at the very least an eighteenth-level sorceror. With a +2 CR boost from the Lich template, that makes him CR 20. Roy might as well have taken on the Tarrasque single-handedly.

Furthermore, Xykon claims to be seven-to-eight levels above Roy. He may be underestimating Roy's level, but he's seen the Fighter in action before. This would make Xykon at least level 20, CR 22. That's an epic-level challenge, comparable to a Black Great Wyrm Dragon (to those who don't know what I'm talking about: Remember the Young Adult Dragon our heroes faced earlier? A Great Wyrm is roughly a thousand years older than that. It's also four times as big, does about twice as much damage, uses more magic than V, etc).

[Assassinfox]

(to those who don't know what I'm talking about: Remember the Young Adult Dragon our heroes faced earlier? A Great Wyrm is roughly a thousand years older than that. It's also four times as big, does about twice as much damage, uses more magic than V, etc).

And has enough SR to not even flinch when V casts Disintegrate. :smallsmile:

[Innis Cabal]

well he is at least a CR 22....that explain it?

[squidly_bard]

i agree with Eomir! And also arne't we forgeting star metal!?!?! maybe that cancels out all this crapt hat no1 but u understands? mmm?

[Scatman]

Xykon Is cleary powerful, meaning that only one person can defeat him...
CHUCK NORRIS!
Na jk but he is roughly in epic levels and can pretty much kill anything thats maybe about 2 or 3 levels higher than him anyways.The only thing that could probally kill him now is maybe durkon because of his healing spells, hes a cleric, powerful buffs, etc....That or the laws of comedy kick in as usual.

[Kreistor]

Xykon also has a trump card. Redcloak is sitting in the back not casting much of anything right now.

Evil Clerics spontaneously cast Inflict spells, and Inflict spells heal Undead, so Xykon knows he can get himself pumped back up any time he feels like flying back to base camp.

[tis_tom]

Roy -has- been hitting and damaging Xykon! You can see on his clothing 4 or 5 cuts that are made by his attacking in this strip, and while it hasn't incapacitated him, it has caused -some- damage.

[Spiky]

I thought Xykon's trump card is the MitD.

[factotum]

I thought Xykon's trump card is the MitD.

It was back in Dorukan's Dungeon, but I think Xykon has noticed now just what a doofus the MitD is--note that he said the best way to let Miko escape was to let the MitD guard her! Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if the MitD *never* gets revealed...

[Wesmin]

If we're talking about how powerful he is, then yes, he's at least lvl 20. Maybe even epic.

On top of that he just did up to 192 damage to Roy with a 9th level spell... ...and now he's falling at 1d6 damage per 10 feet. I hope someone saves him or he's going to need a res after the battle is over.. :\

[Scudboy]

Xykon Is cleary powerful, meaning that only one person can defeat him...
CHUCK NORRIS!


I respectfully submit another possible challenger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pg6wD-j2JQ&watch_response).

[Corolinth]

As has been stated, Xykon has damage reduction of 15/bludgeoning and magical. Roy's sword only meets one of those criteria. Stoneskin is pretty useless for Xykon, since it grants DR of 10/adamantine (unless someone's wielding a magic club, Xykon's natural DR is better). Now, Roy can easily hit for over 15 points of damage per swing, so he's going to hurt Xykon, but not nearly as much as he would if he took a swing at Redcloak. Roy's damaging Xykon primarily with the undead bane aspect of his weapon (effects unknown, but probably a standard SRD bane weapon).

And as I pointed out on another message board... Why on Earth are we assuming that there are average rolls happening for anything? Why would Xykon, the big bad guy, have mere average hit points for his (d12, he's undead) hit dice?

Of course, we can turn that around and ask the same question of Roy's hit points. Or, why would we assume that Xykon didn't get a crappy roll on meteor swarm? Heroes have this nasty habit of getting lucky at just the right moment.

[LFA]

no matter...