Grappling Rules Contention

[Brendanicus]

So today, my party tried out 5th ed for the first time. One of their encounters was fighting a bunch of gargoyles on a cliff. One of the Gargoyles, who have 14 strength, managed to grapple the full-plate-clad fighter through a nat 20. Said gargoyle proceeded to fly the fighter off the cliff and drop him.

Seeing as grappling allows the grappler to move the target half of the grappler's move speed, and that gargoyles get 60 foot flight speed, this to me seemed entirely reasonable. My fighter insists that there is no way this could have happened, despite being entirely RAW. (He survived the fall BTW).

What do you guys think?

[jaydubs]

I'd say that a creature with 14 strength has a carrying capacity of 14*15=210. Full plate weighs 65 pounds. The fighter probably weighs more than 150 pounds if he is strength based (guessing from full plate), and probably has a backpack full of other gear on top of that. So in total, he probably weighs more than the gargoyle can carry.

So I'd say the fighter is too heavy to be pulled off the cliff, unless he was like 5 feet from the edge (drag capacity goes up to 14*30=420, but reduces speed to 5).

[Jamesps]

I'd agree with the above poster that carrying capacity comes into play, particularly if the gargoyle is trying to take flight.

That would be the RAW issue, but from a realism standpoint there's nothing to stop the fighter from dropping his weapon and grabbing onto the gargoyle for dear life instead of falling. Think of every movie scene where some character is trying to huck a character off a cliff and the character is grabbing onto his leg to keep from falling. The hucker ends up having to kick the faller in the head a few times to dislodge him.

[Magic Myrmidon]

A nat 20 does not mean an automatic success when it's an opposed roll, for one thing. That being said, it does make it unlikely that the fighter beat the gargoyle. That's the only real problem I might see.

[ChubbyRain]

Carry: 15 x Strength Score
Push, Drag, or Lift: 30 x Strength Score (double carry)

About the worst that would happen (if using a variant rule) is the creature's speed would be reduced by 20' and going further they would have disadvantage on ability, attack, saves regarding Str, Dex, Con.

[coredump]

I seem to remember that carrying capacity was reduced while flying. Is that actually a rule, or am I just making stuff up?

It sure seems to make sense that way...

[jaydubs]

Carry: 15 x Strength Score
Push, Drag, or Lift: 30 x Strength Score (double carry)

About the worst that would happen (if using a variant rule) is the creature's speed would be reduced by 20' and going further they would have disadvantage on ability, attack, saves regarding Str, Dex, Con.

Just to clarify, the variant rule's heavily encumbered (reduce speed by 20', disadvantage on a few things) specifies in excess of 10x your strength score, up to your carrying capacity (15x strength score). It's more restrictive than the normal carrying rules. Even if you use the variant, you still get dropped to 5' speed if you go past 15x strength score.

[Gnomes2169]

I seem to remember that carrying capacity was reduced while flying. Is that actually a rule, or am I just making stuff up?

It sure seems to make sense that way...

No rules to change carrying capacity while flying that I can find, thou I haven't looked too thoroughly in the DMG yet.

[Brendanicus]

Ok, it was BS now that I think about it. /thread

[Slipperychicken]

Ok, it was BS now that I think about it. /thread

It's actually relevant, given all the discussion about Aarakocra Barbarians doing essentially the same thing as your gargoyle did.

[campskully]

Okay, but what if the gargoyles were all secretly Barbarians with boots of springing. This happens all the time in nature, trust me. I'm an expert on all forms of Rock-life that can fly into a blood frenzy and their influence on the economy. Anyway, The 14 strength produces a 140 pound capacity and the bear totem that these gargoyles are obviously following will double that to produce a carrying capacity of 280 pounds. Subtract the armor, now you have 215 pounds worth of person to assume. My best guess is this fighter would weigh 180-215 so the bear-garg-barian is flying at 60 ft but halved to 30 due to the grapple. Using the boots, our monstrosity leaps with the fighter 3X jumping distance of a non encumbered kamikaze pilot or flies for 30 feet. Either way, this highly probable rendition of the scenario would dictate that, yes. The gargoyle and the fighter are falling for each other. Well, it's more of a tumble

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I'd say that a creature with 14 strength has a carrying capacity of 14*15=210. Full plate weighs 65 pounds. The fighter probably weighs more than 150 pounds if he is strength based (guessing from full plate), and probably has a backpack full of other gear on top of that. So in total, he probably weighs more than the gargoyle can carry. So I'd say the fighter is too heavy to be pulled off the cliff, unless he was like 5 feet from the edge (drag capacity goes up to 14*30=420, but reduces speed to 5).
But you are assuming the Fighter is being carried, rather than dragged, over the cliff.

I'm not sure that's accurate. Does the fighter have to leave the ground at any point before the final plunge? The fighter was flown over the cliff but the original poster didn't say the fighter was lifted up.

If not, the Gargoyle's max drag is 14*30 = 420 pounds, right? That's easily enough to move an armored fighter and probably his gear, unless he's really loaded down.

[Lanced Crescent]

But you are assuming the Fighter is being carried, rather than dragged, over the cliff.

This.

It doesn't say though that the gargoyle can just drop the fighter without the fighter trying to hold on. That would require another grapple roll from both of them, IMO. Otherwise, the fighter gets to use the gargoyle as a parachute :smallyuk:

[Brendanicus]

This.

It doesn't say though that the gargoyle can just drop the fighter without the fighter trying to hold on. That would require another grapple roll from both of them, IMO. Otherwise, the fighter gets to use the gargoyle as a parachute :smallyuk:I unfortunately explicitly said at the table that the fighter was picked up. Dragging would have worked.

[jaydubs]

But you are assuming the Fighter is being carried, rather than dragged, over the cliff.

I'm not sure that's accurate. Does the fighter have to leave the ground at any point before the final plunge? The fighter was flown over the cliff but the original poster didn't say the fighter was lifted up.

If not, the Gargoyle's max drag is 14*30 = 420 pounds, right? That's easily enough to move an armored fighter and probably his gear, unless he's really loaded down.

I'm not making that assumption.

"Your carrying capacity is your strength score multiplied by 15."

"While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet."

That means you can drag up to 420 pounds. But in between 210 and 420 pounds, you move at 5 feet per round. If it's over your max drag, you can't drag it at all. So as I mentioned, if the fighter was close enough to the edge that a 5 foot movement would have taken him off the cliff, cool. If not, dragging doesn't work unless it takes place over multiple rounds.

[Lanced Crescent]

That means you can drag up to 420 pounds. But in between 210 and 420 pounds, you move at 5 feet per round. If it's over your max drag, you can't drag it at all. So as I mentioned, if the fighter was close enough to the edge that a 5 foot movement would have taken him off the cliff, cool. If not, dragging doesn't work unless it takes place over multiple rounds.

Doesn't that open up a contradiction with the grappling rules, though? I mean, how else do you move someone during a grapple except by dragging them around? I seem to recall it being possible to grapple a large creature and just have your way with them movement-wise, at least for half your speed per round. Still more than 5 feet.

There's only so much leverage will explain. The grappling rules allow the gargoyle to drag the fighter over the cliff, I think, but the fighter can still attempt to hold on to the gargoyle, so he's not completely boned.

[jaydubs]

Doesn't that open up a contradiction with the grappling rules, though? I mean, how else do you move someone during a grapple except by dragging them around?

"When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."

So here's how I read it. It seems pretty straightforward to me. But that doesn't mean it's the best way, or that running it a different way is necessarily bad. This is just how I read the PHB.

Your options are to carry or drag the creature. If the creature weighs less than 15*your strength in pounds, you follow the carry rules, which are adjusted by the halved speed clause. If the creature weights between 15*your strength and 30*your strength, you use the drag rules. I'd round 2.5 to 5 feet since I use a grid. If the creature weighs more than your maximum drag weight, you can't move the creature.

As for the large creature thing, that's the Grappler feat. Normally, you autofail trying to grapple things larger than you. If you have the Grappler feat, you can grapple things 1 size larger than you. But it doesn't say anything about changing movement.

Personally, I don't see anything inherently counter-intuitive in how that works. I figure if you can't move dead weight, you're probably going to have a harder time with a struggling body. But again, if it doesn't work for you, run it differently.