Lay the Smackdown on an Entire Battlefield!

[Rubik]

Expeditious Dodge + Combat Reflexes + Elusive Target + Robilar's Gambit + Improved Trip + Knock-Down + the highest move speed you've got = Profit!

My idea is this: Expeditious Dodge qualifies as the Dodge feat for the use of the Elusive Target feat. In turn, once you move 40' or more, every foe on the battlefield is counted as a target of the Dodge feat, meaning every single one is potential fodder for Elusive Target so long as they're flanking you. So just run around the battlefield provoking AoOs from foes by running between them so that they flank you. Their first attacks auto-miss, targeting their flanking buddies, instead. In addition, you make a freebie trip attempt prior to your retaliatory AoO, and if you successfully trip them, you get an extra bonus attack. If you don't successfully trip, you still get your AoO, and if you deal 10+ points of damage, you get another trip attempt, which could net you that bonus Improved Trip attack.

This gets even better with the Double-Hit feat, Snap Kick, and other feats which grant bonus attacks on AoOs. See: Jack B Quick for more details.

[Silva Stormrage]

The one flaw I see is that once an enemy has figured out the gimmick can't they just stop taking AOO's against you? Then you would just be running around pointlessly. Is there anyway to force an enemy to take an AOO?

[Extra Anchovies]

First, it's worth noting that you don't actually have to always be between two enemies; just provoking AoOs from movement is enough, thanks to the Cause Overreach part of Elusive Target. Sure, you don't get the enemies to hit each other, but you can still trip them.


The one flaw I see is that once an enemy has figured out the gimmick can't they just stop taking AOO's against you? Then you would just be running around pointlessly. Is there anyway to force an enemy to take an AOO?

Nothing short of compulsion effects. Enemies with intelligence scores would stop making AoOs after the first time you knocked them all down.

[Saintheart]

Goad forces any melee attacks from an opponent that round to be taken against you, but sadly it doesn't force AoOs...

[Troacctid]

Expeditious Dodge doesn't have a designated target. In fact, if I'm reading it right, it doesn't actually take effect until after you've moved 40 feet, which means you'd have to have a pretty high speed for this trick to be effective. (Cause Overreach works fine, of course, but that's not exactly a difficult trick to figure out, since it's written right into the text of the feat.)

[WhamBamSam]

Expeditious Dodge doesn't have a designated target. In fact, if I'm reading it right, it doesn't actually take effect until after you've moved 40 feet, which means you'd have to have a pretty high speed for this trick to be effective. (Cause Overreach works fine, of course, but that's not exactly a difficult trick to figure out, since it's written right into the text of the feat.)This. Midnight Dodge does designate a target, if you're the sort of person who finds it morally offensive to use the standard Dodge. Piggy Knowles did a nifty thing with Midnight Dodge+Psycarnum Infusion+Elusive Target back in the Cipher Adept round of Iron Chef.

If you just want to run around making knockdown attacks, you can just take 3-4 levels of Binder for Paimon's Dance of Death and a few feats.

[Rubik]

Expeditious Dodge doesn't have a designated target. In fact, if I'm reading it right, it doesn't actually take effect until after you've moved 40 feet, which means you'd have to have a pretty high speed for this trick to be effective. (Cause Overreach works fine, of course, but that's not exactly a difficult trick to figure out, since it's written right into the text of the feat.)E.D. explicitly counts as Dodge, and the "target" of Dodge is the one the AC bonus is levied against. And since E.D. levies that bonus against everyone, it works.

And moving 40' isn't at all hard. Even a Small character can move twice that in one round.

[Extra Anchovies]

E.D. explicitly counts as Dodge, and the "target" of Dodge is the one the AC bonus is levied against. And since E.D. levies that bonus against everyone, it works.

And moving 40' isn't at all hard. Even a Small character can move twice that in one round.

They move twice the 40' as a run action, though, which leaves no room for any other actions. You need to get 40' of movement in before expeditious dodge even has a bonus to apply, and although that's perfectly achievable, it will require significant build resources (e.g. dipping for speed increases).

[Troacctid]

E.D. explicitly counts as Dodge, and the "target" of Dodge is the one the AC bonus is levied against. And since E.D. levies that bonus against everyone, it works.

It doesn't count as Dodge, it "can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability." To qualify for a feat. It just meets the prerequisite. It doesn't give all the same benefits as Dodge.

[DrKerosene]

Since you mentioned Snap-Kick, have you considered if Evasive Reflexes from ToB would help at all with further positioning?

It's part of the Flash-Step trick from
http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3563506

[Rubik]

Since you mentioned Snap-Kick, have you considered if Evasive Reflexes from ToB would help at all with further positioning?

It's part of the Flash-Step trick from
http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3563506Yep. Excellent for improving mobility.

Also, either a level of monk or some UMD for the sparring dummy master of the master dummy.


It doesn't count as Dodge, it "can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability." To qualify for a feat. It just meets the prerequisite. It doesn't give all the same benefits as Dodge.Yep. It qualifies as Dodge when using Elusive Target.

...Wait, are you arguing against it by arguing for it?

[Drork]

Yep. It qualifies as Dodge when using Evasive Reflexes.

...Wait, are you arguing against it by arguing for it?

He is arguing that it lets you qualify for the feat but does not actually trigger the feats ability as described in the tactic which makes the demand "you must be flanked and you must designate one of the flanking attackers to be affected by your Dodge feat" It does not say the person effected by the dodge feat. You need to be active about use of the feat. This also means that half of the AoO actually target you even under the ruling you can use this combat maneuver in two different ways in the same around and multiple times. There are so many holes to poke in the combination I do not know a single DM that would let you = Profit. At best I can see break even.

[Uncle Pine]

During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses (such as this one and a dwarf's racial bonus on dodge attempts against giants) stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.


When you move 40 feet or more in a single turn, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to your Armor Class until the beginning of your next turn.



The Elusive Target feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Negate Power Attack: To use this maneuver, you must designate a specific foe to be affected by your Dodge feat. If that foe uses the Power Attack feat against you, the foe gains no bonus on the damage roll but still takes the corresponding penalty on the attack roll.
Diverting Defense: To use this maneuver, you must be flanked and you must designate one of the flanking attackers to be affected by your Dodge feat. The first attack of the round from the designated attacker automatically misses you and may strike the other flanking foe instead; the attacking creature makes an attack roll normally, and its ally is considered flatfooted. If the designated attacker is making a full attack against you, its second and subsequent attacks function normally.
Cause Overreach: To use this maneuver, you must provoke an attack of opportunity from a foe by moving out of a threatened square. If the foe misses you, you can make a free trip attempt against this foe, and the foe does not get a chance to trip you if your attempt fails.

You can't activate Elusive Target with Expeditious Dodge because you can't designate anyone with Expeditious Dodge. It's automatic. Thus, your trick doesn't work.

[heavyfuel]

In turn, once you move 40' or more, every foe on the battlefield is counted as a target of the Dodge feat

I'll agree with everyone here saying that Expeditious Dodge doesn't designate a tareget.

[Rubik]

Note that Expeditious Dodge says it qualifies you for feats and other abilities, which means it qualifies you to use it as Dodge. It says nothing about prerequisites, except that's a qualification, too. And since its Dodge target is everyone... Well, if I have to spell it out, I'm afraid this is a huge waste of my time.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I've pulled off similar exploits. I highly recommend dipping Binder 3 levels and a feat in Improved Binding for Paimon. On top of free Whirlwind Attack, +4 dex, tumble bonus, etc... you can use Dance of Death once every 5 rounds to take a full round action to move your speed and attack each foe you pass by once.

If you're really high level, Tornado Throw maneuver from Tome of Battle lends itself quite well to super high speed and tripping buffs. One throw (trip) attack for every 10 ft you move, and the damage dealt increases the farther you move.

[Extra Anchovies]

Note that Expeditious Dodge says it qualifies you for feats and other abilities, which means it qualifies you to use it as Dodge. It says nothing about prerequisites, except that's a qualification, too. And since its Dodge target is everyone... Well, if I have to spell it out, I'm afraid this is a huge waste of my time.

There's a distinction to be made between "affects everyone" and "targets everyone". If there is an area containing one or more creatures which you are aware of and also one invisible creature you are not aware of, and you cast Horrid Wilting (Target: Living creatures, no two of which can be more than 60 ft. apart), you can't affect the invisible creature, because you have to select them as a target. However, if you drop a Delayed Blast Fireball (Area: 20-ft. radius spread) on the same spot, it will damage the invisible creature, because it affects all creatures in the area without targeting them.

The text of Expeditious Dodge doesn't seem to apply any sort of effect to creatures other than yourself, let alone target any creatures other than you. It's a +2 dodge bonus to AC, applied to you, which (to me) seems to imply that the closest the feat has to a target is you yourself.

ETA: I just realized how deep into full rules-lawyer mode I am right now, between this post and my post over in that thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19235268&postcount=309) discussing the difference between arbitrary-but-finite and infinite numbers. It's so good to be back :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

Expeditious Dodge allows you to take the feat, but it nowhere says that it lets you use it. Ordinarily this isn't an issue: If you're just trying to qualify to take Mobility, for instance, it'll work fine. But even though you're allowed to take Elusive Target, it's a waste to do so.

For comparison, consider Stone Power, which counts as Power Attack for purposes of prerequisites: What then happens when you take something that talks about the damage bonus from Power Attack?

[Lerondiel]

Yes, add a sprinkle of Swordsage+Dervish charm and you'll have them very motivated to take their AoO :)

[Drork]

Robilar's Gambit doesnt act the way you want it to in this description. The fact that the bonus only on attacks made to target you and ones effecting you. There is two "you" used in the feat for this exact reason. Now given they do not get the bonus there is no "in return" to act on. Robilar's Gambit does nothing unless your other tactic fails you and they actually get to hit you upside the head for provoking, which may not be a bad thing but not the idea of this tactic.

[Flickerdart]

My idea is this: Expeditious Dodge qualifies as the Dodge feat for the use of the Elusive Target feat.
No, it doesn't. It qualifies you to take Elusive Target, but Expeditious Dodge doesn't allow you to target anybody.

[Feint's End]

No, it doesn't. It qualifies you to take Elusive Target, but Expeditious Dodge doesn't allow you to target anybody.

I agree with Flickerdart on this one.

It seems to be a good idea but sadly not supported by RAW. I also think that paimons dance of death does this better.