Good bloodline for Changeling Rogue/Cabinet Trickster/Warshaper/Mindspy?

[T.G. Oskar]

Pretty much what it says on the title: what would be a good bloodline to apply to a Changeling with the Changeling Rogue substitution levels, then going into Cabinet Trickster, Mindspy and Warshaper?

As with most occasions, this is mostly an exercise of a build, but it's mostly open. The idea of the character is exploiting the synergies between the classes: Cabinet Trickster grants Detect Thoughts at-will and improves a Changeling's Minor Change Shape into full-bloom Change Shape; Mindspy exploits Detect Thoughts into improving combat, whereas Warshaper adds very valuable modifications when transforming, such as natural attacks (and potential improvements), immunity to critical hits and fast healing. Rogue is there for three things: synergy with Changelings, some Sneak Attack damage dice (which opens the option of Craven and ambush feats) and 2 levels with a lot of skills, including a free Knowledge skill (which can open the doors to Knowledge Devotion).

Of course, what hinders the build is that Detect Thoughts and the thought tricks are somewhat poor in terms of DC, as they end up with 15 + Cha modifier...but here is where bloodlines kick in. Furthermore, they also modify Mindspy, as the AC bonus/insight bonus to attack rolls gained by its signature ability (Anticipate) is also modified by class level, so the loss of actual class levels isn't...well, that hindering. That said: what would be a good bloodline to add? Doppleganger seems like a given, but it has a slight problem - it gives redundant abilities (you already get Detect Thoughts and Alter Self through Cabinet Trickster, which defeats the idea of going into the class in the first place). Thus, considering the build does well with Dexterity, Charisma and some Intelligence, what bloodlines would fit into the idea of a character whose main idea of combat is transforming, reading your thoughts and hindering you with swift-action tricks?

Other ideas are welcome (thinking of switching Rogue to Factotum for better Int synergy, for example), but try to keep to the suggested ideas (Roguish class, Cabinet Trickster, Mindspy, Warshaper).

[StreamOfTheSky]

How can you even think of a bloodline when the mind spy and cabinet trickster already occupy so many levels and require so many before you can enter? I had a build I was making just for fun several years ago to try to make it work. It just takes so long to come online (until you have Instant Mindscan and the dazing thought trick, the build isn't viable at its own schtick, IMO, and we're talking double digit character level here...)

Anyway, here's what I came up with, unfinished. Concept was a guy who doesn't even fight, he just defeats you with him mind, but without magical/psionic abilities, just...from being that strong a personality. Looking back, the Vow of Nonviolence probably isn't worth 2 feats especially buried as deep into the build as it is. It'd be better to have taken Able Learner and other stuff.

Michael Westen
Male Changeling [Humanoid (Human, Shapeshifter)]
CG Martial Rogue 4 / Factotum 3 / Marshal 1 / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Mindspy 5 / Warshaper 2
Progression: rogue 1, facto 1, marsh 1, facto +2, rogue +1, CT 1, MS 5, CT +4, warshaper 2, rogue +2
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 16 (initial)
Str 12, Dex 14 (18), Con 18 (22), Int 16 (22), Wis 8, Cha 26 (32)
Base Saves: Fortitude +8, Reflex +12, Will +12
Saves: Fortitude +19, Reflex +21, Will +16/28 (+1 vs. spells/Sp)

Class: Social Intuition, Trapfinding, Inspiration (3 points?), Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Arcane Dilettante, Brains Over Brawn, Motivate Dexterity, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Spell Sense +1, Doppleganger Insights (+2 Bluff/Intimidate/Sense Motive), Thought Tricks, Anticipate (+5 AC/attack vs. foes he is mindreading), Detect Thoughts at will (DC 30 +4 (monstrous) humanoids), Change Shape, Combat Telepathy, Spherical Detect Thoughts, Multiple Surface Thoughts (4 creatures), Instant Mindscan

1 Nymph’s Kiss
1 Intimidating Strike [Rogue]
1 Darkstalker [flaw]
1 Sacred Vow [flaw]
3 Force of Personality
3 Skill Focus (Diplomacy) [Marshal]
6 Persona Immersion
6 Combat Panache [Rogue]
9 Imperious Command
12 Ability Focus (Detect Thoughts)
13 Quick Change [CT]
15 Fade Into Violence
15 Racial Emulation [CT]
18 Vow of Nonviolence (+4 save DC vs. humanoids, monstrous humanoids)
20 Daunting Presence (DC 33 +4 (monstrous) humanoids) [Rogue]
Wanted, but no room: Able Learner

Thought Tricks (DC 28 +4 (monstrous) humanoids; HD 20 or less):
Daze for 1 round (Swift; Will negates)
Disrupt casting or similar action (Immediate; Concentration negates)
Confuse for 1 round (Swift; Will negates)
Stun for 1 round (Swift; Will negates)

Skills (222 points):
Balance +25 (5 ranks +4 dex +6 int +8 cha +2 synergy)
Bluff +40 (23 ranks +8 cha +3 circlet +2 kiss +4 racial)
Concentration +21 (10 ranks +6 con +5 competence)
Diplomacy +45 (23 ranks +8 cha +4 synergy +3 circlet +2 kiss +5 feats)
Disguise +48 (23 ranks +8 cha +2 synergy +3 circlet +2 kiss +10 change shape)
Hide +28 (10 ranks +4 dex +6 int +8 cha)
Intimidate +42 (23 ranks +8 cha +2 synergy +3 circlet +2 kiss +4 racial)
Jump +25 (5 ranks +4 dex +6 int +8 cha +2 synergy)
Move Silently +28 (10 ranks +4 dex +6 int +8 cha)
Perform (Dance) +18 (5 ranks ++8 cha +3 circlet +2 kiss)
Sense Motive +11 (8 ranks -1 wis +4 racial)
Sleight of Hand +21 (1 rank +4 dex +6 int +8 cha +2 synergy)
Tumble +33 (8 ranks +4 dex +6 int +8 cha +2 synergy +5 competence)
Use Magic Device +36 (23 ranks +8 cha +3 circlet +2 kiss)
Skill Tricks: Quick Recovery, Never Outnumbered

Equipment:
Veil of Allure (face; +2 save DC for all cha-based abilities)
Circlet of Persuasion and Int +6
Vest of Resistance +5
Minor Cloak of Displacement and Cha +6
Con +4
Dex +4
Slippers of Battle Dancing and Agile Leaping (Stand as swift w/o AoO; Dex on Jump checks; +10 ft land speed; +5 tumble; +2 init; use Cha instead of str/dex on attack/damage w/ 1H or light weapons if moved 10+ ft) 34650 gp
Ring of Freedom of Movement and Mind Shielding
Novice DM Ring of Protection
Tunic of Steady Spellcasting
Tome of Leadership and Understanding +5

In addition to the Thought Tricks, he has Imperious Command, Sneering Glower (Combat Panache tactic), and with Fade Into Violence, it's tough to even attack him because he's not actually "attacking" anyone. I didn't know about the Fearsome armor property back then; it can replace Intimidating Strike in the build and it means even less attacking.

[T.G. Oskar]

How can you even think of a bloodline when the mind spy and cabinet trickster already occupy so many levels and require so many before you can enter? I had a build I was making just for fun several years ago to try to make it work. It just takes so long to come online (until you have Instant Mindscan and the dazing thought trick, the build isn't viable at its own schtick, IMO, and we're talking double digit character level here...)

Well, it's mostly 10 out of 20 levels, plus the levels from Warshaper (you can nix the last one if you take Quick Change, as the Change Shape ability of Cabinet Trickster explicitly mentions the feat applies to it), so that leaves about 6 levels to play with. Since you don't have to take the levels of bloodline exactly at 3rd and 6th, you can get via Rogue 4 (Rogue 1/Bloodline 1/Rogue 1/Bloodline 2/Rogue 4); with the 3rd substitution level of Changeling Rogue, you get 2 additional skill points, which you can apply to the skills required to enter Cabinet Trickster (Disguise) and Mindspy (Concentration, gotten probably via Martial Study for a Diamond Mind maneuver).

Instant Mindscan is essential, but while you get it, the idea is to pull off the same tricks of an Assassin - study them before you enter combat, and then take advantage of Anticipate and the Dazing thought trick - that can be achieved before 10th level (2 levels of Cabinet Trickster and 1 level of Mindspy); late, but not as much. Not only that, you already get a head-start by applying the Bloodline levels to Anticipate and the DC of all thought tricks, so you start with +3 to AC and attack rolls (effectively canceling out the penalties you got) and a DC of 14 + Cha mod for the dazing thought trick. I will admit, the trick doesn't (as you mention) go into full bloom until you get Instant Mindscan and THEN finish Cabinet Trickster (to get Change Shape and Detect Thoughts at-will), and mostly relies on a Helm of Telepathy while at it - that's 7 more levels, and 1 might be taken as a Bloodline level (for a maximum AC/insight bonus to attack rolls of +8 with Anticipate and a base DC of 18 with all thought tricks) or taken as a level of Warshaper for Morphic Healing and +1 BAB (but it implies either halting a Major bloodline or going into Intermediate bloodline).

So yeah - a bloodline is viable and doesn't exactly delay access to Cabinet Trickster (the first class you actually have access to), but requires precise planning.

RE: Build - impressive save DC, I must say. I feel the dip into Marshal also affected it - you could have gone for Rogue 3/Factotum 3 for a +4 BAB (as it stands, by 6th level, you had a BAB of +2; even with 2 Bloodline levels, my proposed build is 1 BAB higher), though it would mean losing a huge bonus to initiative, Balance, Hide, Move Silently and Tumble. Then again, your build is mostly focused on not attacking, so... I'm a bit unsure where to go, but I can achieve almost the same amount of success with 2 Bloodline levels and Sickening Strike - by order of operations, I can attack first, then use thought trick to daze afterwards with the sickened condition (-2 to saving throws). With a way to shaken the opponent, that's another -2, which is sort of the same thing you attempted with Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered (a typical trick to disable an opponent). Combat Panache's Sneering Glower imposes a hefty penalty to attack rolls, but I also feel that it barely helps - since your character had Intimidate and planned to use it, it felt natural, but it also involved spending points on Perform just to use one of the three maneuvers almost constantly (which reminds me - you also didn't qualify for it, since it requires 8 ranks in Perform, rather than 5). Disturbing Visage, despite imposing a smaller penalty, worked better as you could use all three tactical maneuvers (and it could have been gained for free instead of Racial Emulation, though it's a hard change since RE is really that good). Intimidating Strike is something that leaves me wondering - sure, it's a Rogue feat, but while its useful early on, later on you'll never use it because of Vow of Non-violence, and you wait way too much to get Daunting Presence, which doesn't have the same synergy as Intimidating Strike has with Imperious Command.

There's a lot of things that can be changed, but that's a good reason why I chose to go with posting the idea before going any forward. Made a slight check, and it feels like Intermediate/Major Fey Bloodline does the trick (+1 Dex, +1 Cha, +1 Con, Charm Person and Invisibility as SLAs, and eventually damage reduction with the Major Fey Bloodline), but any other suggestions are welcome.

[Pluto!]

Efreeti gets Improved Initiative, Charisma and Dodge (not a good feat itself, but a common prereq).

Like SotS said though, that's a lot of levels durdling around, unless you have the absolute most generous interpretation of bloodline costs (ie. taking all the levels before ECL 2 and not counting them toward ECL in XP accrual calculations).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, it was an incomplete thought exercise, so I'm sure it could be improved. Like I said, Intimidating Strike can be left out, the Fearsome armor property is just plain better anyway. I guess the issue I had was the classic: plenty of level 1 and fighter feat slots; not enough general slots past level 1. Not really sure of a good feat to replace IS with, I just know you absolutely want that rogue level first for the (10 + Int) x 4 skill points.

Hmm, guess I messed up on the perform ranks. Sneering Glower isn't necessary, it just fit the theme, much like Daunting Presence.

Hopefully at least there's some useful info in the build for you to use. I like the general idea, but it doesn't even come online till shortly before the Mind Blank spell does, so even with painstakingly raised save DC, I'm not sure it's truly viable. If only you could enter one of the two key PrC's sooner.

EDIT: I don't like Disturbing Visage on principle. To me, a changeling rogue should be trying to hide that fact, not brazenly flaunting it to his enemies. When your foes don't know you can be anybody, they underestimate you, and it's easier to pull off shenanigans. Especially when it's a spy-type character. My first changeling rogue went from level 5 to like 12 before his own party knew what he was. Stupid anti-magic field... :smallfrown: