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Rahdjan
2007-04-19, 10:36 AM
Is it just me or does medium armor seem worthless. A chain shirt has an AC of +4 with max dex at +4. The breastplate which is supposed to be the best medium armor is only a +5/+3. As a duskblade with only a +1 to dex and can only wear medium armor and still cast at 100%. What are my options?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-19, 10:38 AM
Mithral Full Plate counts as medium armor.

the_tick_rules
2007-04-19, 10:41 AM
yeah medium armor gets a bad rap of the forum. Mithrilizing it is popular, mithril breastplate is in my opinion the finest base armor type in the game. medium great for dwarves. well it really depends on ya characters play style, if ya don't have an 18 dex and don't mind the speed reduction, why not go medium?

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-19, 10:51 AM
Barbarians can wear it.

Saph
2007-04-19, 11:06 AM
It's not so much that medium armour is worthless, it's that any kind of armour is worthless except for mithral chain shirts, mithral breastplates, and suits of mithral full plate. Once you can afford one of those three, there's no reason ever to wear anything else.

Mithral is really too good, it makes everything else obsolete.

- Saph

brian c
2007-04-19, 11:11 AM
Barbarians can wear it.

Quite true; medium armor is the best that Barbarians can wear without losing class features. Basically, the only people who wear medium armor are barbarians, or people who can't wear heavy armor but don't have very good dex (I know you'd want good dex, but sometimes you just roll really badly, or get drained, or whatever)

daggaz
2007-04-19, 11:13 AM
It's not so much that medium armour is worthless, it's that any kind of armour is worthless except for mithral chain shirts, mithral breastplates, and suits of mithral full plate. Once you can afford one of those three, there's no reason ever to wear anything else.

Mithral is really too good, it makes everything else obsolete.

- Saph

Unless you are a dwarf, who doesnt really give a damn about heavy armor movement penalties. In which case, its adamantium full plate all the way, baby!

Saph
2007-04-19, 11:15 AM
Unless you are a dwarf, who doesnt really give a damn about heavy armor movement penalties. In which case, its adamantium full plate all the way, baby!

Heh. I knew even as I wrote that that someone would have a counterexample I hadn't thought of. :P

I do think Mithral's too good for what it does, though. It would be nice if all the armour types had some kind of use, instead of three-quarters of them becoming obsolete after the first two or three levels.

- Saph

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-19, 11:16 AM
Is the damage reduction 3/- really worth the gold?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-19, 11:18 AM
Well if you make random treasure rolls some very useful non-mithral, non-shirt/breast/plate might present itself and it could be too expensive for the PCs to part with.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-04-19, 11:30 AM
Mithral Full Plate counts as medium armor.

Much to the Glee of my Warblade. :D

Ramza00
2007-04-19, 11:35 AM
Is the damage reduction 3/- really worth the gold?
Combine with that new Magic Item Compedium Crystal that gives an additional DR of 5/- that stacks with your existing DR, yes.

Note the crystal has limited amounts of DR it does before you need to replace it (the limited amount refreshes each day). You can replace it as a move action. Furthemore you can't add the DR 5/- crystal to non heavy armor. You can add the DR 3/- crystal to medium or heavy, and the DR 1/- crystal to light medium or heavy.

daggaz
2007-04-19, 02:24 PM
Not to mention, who ever said you had to pay outright for the armor? You could find it, (as posted above) or you could find the adamantium and craft it yourself.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-19, 02:31 PM
Mithral is really too good, it makes everything else obsolete.


Actually, I prefer GLASSTEEL from Races of Faerun, or BLUE ICE from Frostburn. They still make it lighter, but have better properties. They don't rust either, which is a plus to me (rusting our good equipment is a hobby of my DM in soem adventures).

Miles Invictus
2007-04-19, 07:48 PM
I think Cold Iron and Silvered armors should give DR or AC against vulnerable enemies. For example, Cold Iron could give a bonus against certain Outsiders, while Silvered armor helps against shapeshifters.

It'd have to be a fairly hefty bonus, though, to compete with the benefits from Mithril or Adamantine.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-19, 08:09 PM
I don't think the problem is that Mithral is too good so much as the problem is that Adamantine is so bad. By mid levels, I expect characters to be using better than your average armor, and given the choice between magic-ing up some steel and just getting some fine supermetal, anyone with any foresight will grab the latter. So you take a peek in the back of the DMG for special materials and see Mithral (woot!), Adamantine (bleh!), Dragonhide and Darkwood (either perfect or pointless!), and Cold Iron and Silver (not even options!). Mithral does what it ought to - the problem is that nothing else does.

Indon
2007-04-19, 08:32 PM
Adamantine does have one advantage over Mithral, and that is that it's harder to destroy (due to a higher hardness and hit points).

But yeah, there needs to be more options for armor materials. Are there any books with a compilation, perhaps?

Darkxarth
2007-04-19, 08:44 PM
I think Cold Iron and Silvered armors should give DR or AC against vulnerable enemies. For example, Cold Iron could give a bonus against certain Outsiders, while Silvered armor helps against shapeshifters.

It'd have to be a fairly hefty bonus, though, to compete with the benefits from Mithril or Adamantine.

Cold Iron armor (which I think would be an interesting idea) should have grant some sort of percentage for a spell that would affect you (not including area spells or friendly touch spell, assuming that they would touch a part of you not covered by armor) not to work. For instance, Medium Cold Iron armor would grant a 15% chance that any spell cast on the wearer would simply fizzle out on contact. Light armor might be a 10% chance and heavy might be 20% or 25% chance to fizzle out.

I can't think of anything clever for silvered armor. Especially since silvered weapons are already kind of lame. (-1 to damage, for what?)

Orzel
2007-04-19, 08:56 PM
Why everyone forgeting rouges and rangers in padded armor hopping around with 26 Dex?

Yeah, medium armor is bad unless it's forced or free.

reorith
2007-04-19, 08:58 PM
Barbarians can wear it.
and rangers
and mounted pallys concerned with their acp

Nebo_
2007-04-19, 09:45 PM
Rangers can only use their combat style in light armour. Paladins needn't worry about that because the ride skill isn't effected by armour check penalty.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-19, 09:46 PM
its good for people that can only wear it, like the duskblade and several other class's with the armored caster feat...so ya its worth it

Matthew
2007-04-20, 01:02 PM
It is also a perfectly good Armour for people with low Dexterity and limited access to wealth and magic - i.e. the vast majority of NPC Warriors and low level Player Characters.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-20, 01:14 PM
Adamantine does have one advantage over Mithral, and that is that it's harder to destroy (due to a higher hardness and hit points).

This supposed "advantage" of adamantine armor is mitigated by the fact that you cannot sunder armor, therefore its only an advantage when your armor is not on your body, at which point it doesn't really matter if the armor is more resiliant because you're in trouble anyways.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-20, 01:16 PM
I wish I could be clever and compile the different materials, but it's getting late here.

Aside from the Glasssteel and Blue ice, there's also Chitin from Sandstorm/Races of the Dragon, which might be any category(IIRC. I mean, different arthropods have different shells. Compare Spider to Scorpion to Lobster). Libris Mortis may have Bonemail, I think.

Assassinfox
2007-04-20, 01:29 PM
Libris Mortis may have Bonemail, I think.

Two different bone armors. One's a magic armor, the other's a graft that gets attached directly to your body.

JellyPooga
2007-04-20, 01:35 PM
Two different bone armors. One's a magic armor, the other's a graft that gets attached directly to your body.

The graft being really naff 'cos it grants natural armour, rather than a bonus to your natural armour. The armours a bit naff too IIRC...wish there were more Undead Armours or some hard and fast rules for crafting them.

Assassinfox
2007-04-20, 01:36 PM
The graft being really naff 'cos it grants natural armour, rather than a bonus to your natural armour. The armours a bit naff too IIRC...wish there were more Undead Armours or some hard and fast rules for crafting them.

... naff? As wordly as I am, I'm unfamiliar with that term. :smalltongue:

Does it mean something like bad or horrible?

JellyPooga
2007-04-20, 01:39 PM
... naff? As wordly as I am, I'm unfamiliar with that term. :smalltongue:

Does it mean something like bad or horrible?

Yes. It is a derogatory term of the mild variety. Saying something is 'Not good' is about the same sort of level of crapness as 'Naff'.

Assassinfox
2007-04-20, 02:01 PM
Wouldn't glassteel armor have a problem with... decency? :smalleek:

asqwasqw
2007-04-20, 02:02 PM
Wouldn't glassteel armor have a problem with... decency? :smalleek:

Don't you wear armor over clothing?

Peregrine
2007-04-20, 02:14 PM
Okay, let me look at this... let's assume you'll pick an armour that lets you have your full Dex to AC, and then pick the best armour AC under this constraint... well, okay, full plate wins because it offers a total of +9 (+8 armour, +1 Dex). That's better than anything but padded armour (which is +1/+8, so fantastic if you have Dex 26). But I don't see why people are bringing chain shirts into it. They're worse protection than breastplates for characters with Dex less than 18. (Better ACP and ASF, but that's generally not an issue for medium-armour types.)

One possible fix for armours becoming obsolete is to just not have every damn market in the world sell a full range of armours off-the-rack. :smalltongue: Randomia doesn't have much metalworking industry and so doesn't have any armours with more metal than studs. Madeupistan is very concerned with fashion and elegance, so heavy hauberks and full plate are out. Adhocum loves to armour its citizens and horses in steel plates from head to foot, so you actually have trouble finding partial armours like chain shirts there at all.

Kantolin
2007-04-20, 10:53 PM
Wait, time out. I don't usually care about Mythril when I'm playing anyone who is proficient with heavy armour.

Who cares if your full plate is heavy or medium? It still lowers your movement to 20, and... and nobody cares. Save yourself 9000 gold unless you're a barbarian.

Personally, there are four armours. Chain Shirts, Breastplates, Full Plate, and Hide.

Hide exists exclusively for druids, since nobody else cares.

Why would you waste the effort making a Chain Shirt mythril? That cash could go for a bonus thereon. Or on anything else. I mean, mythril doesn't make light armour not armour.

Mythril Breasplates are not for most people either. Mythril Breastplates exist for Bards and Rangers who want light armour. Admittedly, it lets you move 30 instead of 20, so if you care...

...but honestly? My clerics, say, tend to just waltz around in full plate. The 9K that would go towards losing armour check penalty goes to... improving that armour's plusses. Full plate means I can stick with a 12 dexterity and put my key stats somewhere else.

Now, adamantine being overexpensive I also kinda agree with, but hey.

SpatulaOfDoom
2007-04-21, 02:34 AM
Peregrine: Chain shirts are brought into the equasion because they are the lightest armor that is capable of being crafted with mithril, the only light armor infact that benefits from it. With a chain shirt it only costs 1000gp to mithrilize it (and you save the 150gp masterwork cost dropping the actual cost to 850gp no big change but it's nice) total cost 1100gp.
What you get is no armor check penalty (reduction of one) a max dex of +6 (up 2) and a base AC bonus of 4

Compare that to +2 leather armor which has the exact same stats but costs 4160gp, oh and since it already has a +2 enhancement bonus any bonus altering effects you wish to add to it are more expensive to begin with.

Compare the Mithril Chain Shirt to the Breastplate, the breastplate has a total cost of 4000 for the mithril and 200 for the Breastplate a max dex of +5 and an armor check penalty of -1 (down 3 from non masterwork), oh and if it matters the chain shirt has a spell failure of 10% and the Breastplate 15%. So in return for 3100gp, 5% worse spell failure, and 1 worse armor check and max dex you gain +1 ac and both are considered light. Doesn't seem better does it? It can make a difference similar to the +2 leather in terms of enchanting costs but that usually only comes into play in the super high end and by that point the wearer is probably using up that extra +1 max dex that the chain shirt grants negating any benefit of the Breastplate.


Kantolin: Simply put the ones that care about the benefits of mithril are the ones who get it. Mithril improves mobility, not just movement speed. Half the weight means lower encumberance (and armor, especially heavy can be... heavy), -3 to the armor check penalty rather than -1 from masterwork can make the difference to the high strength fighter with no ranks in swim who's been given an involuntary swiming lesson. The +2 max dex can either allow you to put more of your dex to use or give you 'room to grow'. If you wind up with a pair of gloves of dex, or a book, or even a level based stat increase you can benefit the most from the increase without going out and trading in your current armor for a new set (and all the costs that entails)

The reason people pick up mithril is the same as the reason you don't see anyone running around in half-plate rather than full, it's better.

You're right that the cost can be prohibitive but like in previous examples it can reduce costs in the long run by requiring less enchanting.

I'm not sure why you cited a cleric in your example since with dex as a dump stat they probably get the least benefit from it.


For light armor (err chain shirt) the cost is relatively negligable medium and heavy it becomes significant but considering the benefits of mithriling up heavier armor as opposed to enchanting lighter armor are pretty evident.

Plus it's shiny!

squishycube
2007-04-21, 02:45 AM
you can try to wear a metal armour a whole day without anything under it and then rethink that question :smile:

And you can sunder armour, you can sunder any item someone is holding or wearing:
d20 SRD - Sunder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder)

Sundering a Carried or Worn Object

You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

EvilRoeSlade
2007-04-21, 02:51 AM
Read the last line where it says "You can't sunder armor worn by another character."

squishycube
2007-04-21, 02:54 AM
Stupid points for SQC for not reading what he is posting! (Cheers in the background)

Kantolin
2007-04-21, 02:26 PM
Kantolin: Simply put the ones that care about the benefits of mithril are the ones who get it. Mithril improves mobility, not just movement speed.

My point, essentially, is that most people don't care about Mythril. It seems that a lot of people have implied, well:


it's that any kind of armour is worthless except for mithral chain shirts, mithral breastplates, and suits of mithral full plate.

And that's not quite true. A whole bunch of people simply don't care about mythril, particularly on the full plate end. A few people in breastplates could also care less, as that's cash you can put on (say) smacking things or direct bonuses to your armour class, so if you can live without the movement, then great.


Half the weight means lower encumberance (and armor, especially heavy can be... heavy),

But almost everyone who wears full plate could care less about encumbrance. Certainly not enough to spend 9000gp on it, when that money could go towards giving yourself a +3 bonus to your armour, perhaps something to a shield...


-3 to the armor check penalty rather than -1 from masterwork can make the difference to the high strength fighter with no ranks in swim who's been given an involuntary swiming lesson.

It can, but once again, I sure as heck wouldn't care. If I have maximum ranks in swim, then by the time I can afford mythril, the -2 won't particularly bug me. Certainly not enough to warrant spending 9000gp on, and not when there's a ring of swimming.


The +2 max dex can either allow you to put more of your dex to use or give you 'room to grow'. If you wind up with a pair of gloves of dex, or a book, or even a level based stat increase you can benefit the most from the increase without going out and trading in your current armor for a new set (and all the costs that entails)

I suppose. But that's spending 9k gold on a 'Well, if these items drop, and if they're most useful for me, and if I can't sell them for a different item, and if I have nothing currently useful in that slot... I can gain a bonus to armour class which is about equivalent to the bonus to AC I would get if I just spend this 9k gold on armour bonuses.


The reason people pick up mithril is the same as the reason you don't see anyone running around in half-plate rather than full, it's better.

But that's 9k gold for full plate. That money could go towards making your full plate +3. For your average heavy armour user, they don't have nor care about the dexterity to make mythril worth your time compared to straight plusses (Or, I suppose, special abilities).


I'm not sure why you cited a cleric in your example since with dex as a dump stat they probably get the least benefit from it.
For that reason exactly. A cleric is an example of a heavy armour user who could care less about his dexterity (most of the time. Granted, there are exceptions, but...)

Overall, I'd say:

Clerics, Paladins, and most Fighters don't care about Mythril Full Plate
Barbarians and dex-happy Fighters do want Mythril Full Plate

And nobody else is going to spend a feat on it, so pretty much anyone who can wear full plate is going to ignore mythril as a pointless addition, with the potential exception of the barbarian.

Mythril Chain Shirt, maybe. Mostly since it raises your maximum dex, and a lot of light armour weilders will eventually have the dexterity such that it's worth it. Mythril Breastplate, however, strikes me as more useful as that counts as light armour, making the Rangers of the world happy - it's the most useful mythril category since it lets you continue to move 30 while still having a good armour class. The only reason the chain shirt is even viable is because it's rather cheap.

Is armour check penalty that worthwhile?

IMHO, there are the following armours (given almost nobody on Mythril FP). The key armours are Chain Shirt, Mythril Breastplate, and Full Plate. Upgrading from chain shirt to mythril chain is indeed an upgrade but a hardly necessary or particularly useful one for most people (Whee, I have less armour check penalty!).

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-21, 02:53 PM
I depend on mythril breastplates a lot. A knight pre-level 9 might enjoy the medium armors too. Generally speaking though, not many players use medium armor because they typically either love armor and are using heavy, or don't need it much and are using light/none.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-21, 09:19 PM
Anytime you can reduce encumberance is a good thing. 99% of the time, the encumberance is from your armour(if it's metal), since the remaining 1% of the time is when you're hauling back a half ton of treasure.

Full Plate is 50lbs. Assuming your average Cleric has 14 Strength or so, that's a little under 1/3 of his maximum capacity. All it takes is the loss of about 6 points or so(reasonable, for a Wizard casting Ray of Enfeeblement, at the level you can afford Full Plate), to possibly leave you unable to move. It gets worse. If they actually get lucky and take off 10 points(either with a solid roll, maximised/empowered, or combined with Fatigue/Exhaustion), you've just lost all Dexterity(not that you had much to begin with, but it's the condition of losing all Dexterity, to the point of even negating Uncanny Dodge, thereby making you vulnerable to SA/SS), and you can't even move 5 feet without taking up your turn.

With Mithral, your opponent would have to reduce you to 1 Strength before you hit that state. Granted, there's really not that much difference in the point of failure, but it's still harder. Mithralising your armour is good for almost everyone except those looking for Adamantium, and maybe Dwarves(ironically enough, considering they're probably the ones who mined it in the first place).

nows7
2007-04-21, 10:00 PM
Stupid points for SQC for not reading what he is posting! (Cheers in the background)

I was about to tell you to be nice to squishy cube when i realized how stupid that would have been of me...


I prefer to limit the amount of Mithral and Adamantine in my games. Cold steel and Alc. Silver are fairly common, simply as they are less powerful choices, and are realy only for bypassing damage reduction. Let the PC's find the mithral or adamantine and be excited about it - that helps preserve the use of Med. armor.

thorgrim29
2007-04-21, 10:43 PM
Mithral is pretty usefull if you're using those monstreous armors fom races of stone, lets you actually move in it. Plus, nearly all my characters go around in mithral chain shirts, exept for the tanks, its a free bonus absolutely no drawback unless you're a mage (then if you choose to wear armor you add that +1 bonus think) or you have dex 24.

Hurlbut
2007-04-22, 11:29 AM
Mithral is pretty usefull if you're using those monstreous armors fom races of stone, lets you actually move in it.
Except for Mountain Plate.

Justin_Bacon
2007-04-22, 11:51 AM
I do think Mithral's too good for what it does, though. It would be nice if all the armour types had some kind of use, instead of three-quarters of them becoming obsolete after the first two or three levels.

I don't see why that would be a good idea. Historically some armors were simply better than other armors, so having natural "sweet spots" makes sense to me.

This doesn't necessarily mean that other types of armor are a waste of space in the PHB. For example, I take a page from history and have scalemail made largely obsolete by the development of light chain and full plate armor. In my campaign world very few people wear scalemail, but there are two exceptons: The northern barbarians lack the forgecraft necessary for plate, so you'll find many of them wearing scalemail. And in many ancient treasure hordes, dating back before the development of plate, you'll find magical scalemail instead of the more modern armors.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

asqwasqw
2007-04-22, 02:31 PM
I like the armor= damage reduction/something +AC. Each armor type cost the same (light armor 1 cost is = light armor 2 cost) amd has the same AC but each armor is weak vs a type of damage. The last armor has 1 less damage reduction but is strong vs. everything. I also ban Mithral.

Also, Mithral Full Plate+Barbarian=30 ft move speed.