Furious Focus vs Weapon Focus

[Molosse]

Just wondering what the Gtitp community thinks on this, what's a better choice for a Full-BaB Martial if I was to say I only have the feat allowance for one or the other: Weapon Focus or Furious Focus.

On one hand Furious Focus of course provides a larger bonus (past level 3) to the initial attack but on the other hand, it can be argued, that the extra +1 to hit on the second, third and fourth iterative attacks means more to those attacks than the equivalent of a scaling bonus on the initial attack.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you only have room for one, Furious Focus is probably stronger unless you have more than just the four BAB-derived attacks per round, e.g. via some sort of flurry ability.

[Psyren]

Numerically, Furious Focus is stronger, but there are other factors to consider. There are a number of other feats you may want down the road that require Weapon Focus as a prereq. In addition, Furious Focus does nothing for characters using light weapons, natural attacks/unarmed, or characters that use TWF sword-and-board, or einhander.

[Molosse]

Numerically, Furious Focus is stronger, but there are other factors to consider. There are a number of other feats you may want down the road that require Weapon Focus as a prereq. In addition, Furious Focus does nothing for characters using light weapons, natural attacks/unarmed, or characters that use TWF sword-and-board, or einhander.

A fair point, thus to elaborate:

I) I will be using a Greatsword
II) I am building a Cavalier (VMC Bard) so feats are limited
III) While I will be taking a decent drop of Cha I have currently maxed out what I consider action efficiency so no Dazzling Display shenanigans.
IV) With Banner/Cavalier Charge/Full Martial BaB/OoDragon Challenge/Inspire Courage I feel I can usually land the first attack with few issues however I do worry that my follow up swings will suffer, I'm also not pushing a Mounted-Build in any major way and thus do not wish to rely on charge attacks to see me through, so Banner/Cavalier Charge may not prove decisive at all times.
V) As this is a concept build I can't rely on spells like Haste being available and thus I'm concentrating on the extra attacks BaB progression will grant me.

[Extra Anchovies]

Why are you playing a cavalier if you don't plan on fighting from a mount? Isn't that their entire shtick?

[Molosse]

Why are you playing a cavalier if you don't plan on fighting from a mount? Isn't that their entire shtick?

The first, and overwhelming point, is that you can't bring your mount everywhere and thus concentrating wholly upon your mount (and more specifically being mounted upon your mount), without some specific clues from your DM will end up with you as a disappointed Cavalier.
In turn neglecting your mount entirely serves to leave you without one of the main features of the class. Thus as a compromise I like to build Cavaliers that function decently both on and off the mount, concentrating upon my effectiveness on foot as the Cavalier class features promote my power on the mount.

Beyond that however it has to be said that Cavaliers are more than just a Fighter on a mount, they're also a leader and supporter of martial characters (Casting as well with the right Order), utilising a combination of:

I) Their Banner abilities.
II) Their free Teamwork Feats and the ability to pass them off.
III) Many Orders which provide varied benefits for not just the Cavalier and his mount but also his party.

To this end, while solidifying and concentrating upon this role, I'm building a Strategist/Standard Bearer Cavalier (VMC Bard). The build itself isn't overly feat intensive, and due to Standard Bearer I won't grab the Mount till level 5 so Mounted feats aren't needed at early levels, but the VMC strips away a decent bunch and thus the conundrum of Furious Focus vs Weapon Focus comes about.

[Psyren]

Since you're using Unchained (VMC stuff) are you also going to use the Stamina system? That will solve the conundrum pretty darn quickly as stam!Furious Focus allows you to reduce the penalty for multiple attacks during the round, blowing WF away.

[grarrrg]

The first, and overwhelming point, is that you can't bring your mount everywhere and thus concentrating wholly upon your mount (and more specifically being mounted upon your mount), without some specific clues from your DM will end up with you as a disappointed Cavalier.

I'm assuming you are a Medium race and thus riding a Large mount.
The "standard" workaround is to play a Small race, thus your Medium Mount can fit (most) anywhere.

But when playing a Medium race the mount can indeed be tricky at times.

[Molosse]

Since you're using Unchained (VMC stuff) are you also going to use the Stamina system? That will solve the conundrum pretty darn quickly as stam!Furious Focus allows you to reduce the penalty for multiple attacks during the round, blowing WF away.

Sadly that'd fall into the limited feats issue where I don't really have the ability to fit in Combat Stamina, there's also the compounding issue that S-Furious Focus costs 5 points a pop though I suppose at higher levels, what with it's high recovery rate, I could use it once or twice an encounter to provide some damn good benefits.


I'm assuming you are a Medium race and thus riding a Large mount.
The "standard" workaround is to play a Small race, thus your Medium Mount can fit (most) anywhere.

But when playing a Medium race the mount can indeed be tricky at times.

It's a damn weird world where a class designed around the notion of Feudal Knight is best played by little people of all stripes and colour. But yes, not only does the extra feat help things along I just generally enjoy playing human characters.

[Psyren]

Sadly that'd fall into the limited feats issue where I don't really have the ability to fit in Combat Stamina, there's also the compounding issue that S-Furious Focus costs 5 points a pop though I suppose at higher levels, what with it's high recovery rate, I could use it once or twice an encounter to provide some damn good benefits.

Actually, one of the options for Combat Stamina is that all martials get it for free. I would push for that.

"Free for Everyone: If your goal is to immediately boost all martial characters and the whole group is ready to handle the stamina and combat tricks system, you can grant Combat Stamina as an additional bonus feat for all martial characters, or even for all characters."

"Martial character" could easily be defined as any full-BAB base class, plus rogue/monk/etc.


It's a damn weird world where a class designed around the notion of Feudal Knight is best played by little people of all stripes and colour. But yes, not only does the extra feat help things along I just generally enjoy playing human characters.

Undersized Mount lets your medium creature ride a medium mount if you want, though since you are short on feats, being Small may be the best option. However, I also agree with you that a switch-hitter character that plans on being moderately effective both mounted and on-foot can be perfectly viable.

Of course, if you're Human and use your bonus feat on Undersized Mount, you end up on par with a small creature feat-wise.

[Molosse]

Actually, one of the options for Combat Stamina is that all martials get it for free. I would push for that.

"Free for Everyone: If your goal is to immediately boost all martial characters and the whole group is ready to handle the stamina and combat tricks system, you can grant Combat Stamina as an additional bonus feat for all martial characters, or even for all characters."

"Martial character" could easily be defined as any full-BAB base class, plus rogue/monk/etc.



Undersized Mount lets your medium creature ride a medium mount if you want, though since you are short on feats, being Small may be the best option. However, I also agree with you that a switch-hitter character that plans on being moderately effective both mounted and on-foot can be perfectly viable.

Aye, if and when I actually use the character if Martial's gain Combat Stamina for free then Furious will serve as the obvious choice :), however as far as possible with the noted exception of the Bard VMC I'm trying to build the character on as few expectation as possible. Beyond that I'm honestly very happy with the build, I was just umming and ahhing over Furious vs Weapon at level 1.

I'm aware of the the Small creature route damn near everyone I run into takes with Cavalier but I like to be a boring sod and stick to the classics, no child-sized chevalier riding around on Velociraptor's for me thankee very much.

As it is I have a build that works damn well on foot and only gets stronger if and when mounted, beyond that I manage to bring along a half-way decent AC who in turn benefits from all the support I throw out, so who am I to complain?

[Pex]

It is easy to find pluses to hit. It is not so easy to find lots of damage. The +3 damage you're getting from Power Attack will soon become +6, +9, +12. You are going to notice it. You will not always get a full attack. Sometimes you have to move, want to move, or are charging. You want the one attack you're getting to be as massive as it can be. Just for the fun factor it's cool you can Power Attack all the time, not take a penalty to the roll (for these times you are only getting one attack anyway), and experience that high damage total. The +1 from Weapon Focus gets lost in the addition of all your pluses.