Don't "cheer me up" after a loss (PvP gaming rant)

[Lheticus]

One of my more unusual gaming foibles (and as some of you may know, that IS saying something) is that I absolutely can't stand it when my opponent tries to say stuff to make me feel better after a loss. It annoys me for a couple different reasons, but I'd like to only really go into the most major one: I don't WANT to feel better after losing something. If I lose in a game and feel no emotional pain, it's like I don't care about playing that game. And if I don't care about playing a game, I'm not going to play that game! In effect, when people try to make me feel about losing, they're trying to make me stop playing! Not that they're aware of this of course. Losing isn't supposed to feel good, it's not supposed to feel even ambivalent even if its the 100th time I lose at something. The pain of losing is what I use to motivate myself to improve, and I don't appreciate that being taken away from me, even accidentally!

Look, I know this is stupid. I know I can't expect people to know this without my telling them. So...this post is me starting to tell them! And when I go up against someone new, I'll say "please, if you beat me, please don't try to make me feel better. I'd really appreciate it."

If you really want to respond to this post, I guess one thing you could maybe answer for me is the question of just how much of a space alien (read: very unusual, not common to see at all) attitude is this for me to have?

[Thiyr]

So here's a question before I render judgement upon thy face. What constitutes "cheering you up"? Like, obviously "aww, don't feel bad, you played well", but would someone going "I was pissing myself thinking you were gonna do X, if you did I would have been so screwed"? 'Cause the former just sounds more like condescension, and just about anyone would be pissed at that, while the latter feels like bringing something to your attention to improve, which (at least for me) alleviates the "I'm pissed because i lost and that sucked", while still letting me go "I should have known that".

That said, I do find that kinda odd, though so long as you don't expect everyone else to be the same (which obviously it seems you don't), not like it's an issue. If it's people you're gonna play with frequently, let them know. Otherwise, don't feel too bad about it, it's not -that- weird.




Yes, that was intentional :P

[enderlord99]

I'm of the opinion that losing should be less fun than winning, but still fun. If it isn't fun, you shouldn't be playing a game in the first place!

If you think that playing a game should ever be a negative experience, you're an idiot.

[Lheticus]

So here's a question before I render judgement upon thy face. What constitutes "cheering you up"? Like, obviously "aww, don't feel bad, you played well", but would someone going "I was pissing myself thinking you were gonna do X, if you did I would have been so screwed"? 'Cause the former just sounds more like condescension, and just about anyone would be pissed at that, while the latter feels like bringing something to your attention to improve, which (at least for me) alleviates the "I'm pissed because i lost and that sucked", while still letting me go "I should have known that".

That said, I do find that kinda odd, though so long as you don't expect everyone else to be the same (which obviously it seems you don't), not like it's an issue. If it's people you're gonna play with frequently, let them know. Otherwise, don't feel too bad about it, it's not -that- weird.




Yes, that was intentional :P

"I was pissing myself thinking you were gonna do X, if you did I would have been so screwed."

If someone gives me legitimate advice, that's the best possible response, followed closely by not saying anything--and it's very rare that it happens. It's not really an "aww, don't feel bad" attitude, it's more like "hey, losing happens" and other such meaningless platitudes. Basically they say something that essentially says nothing that vaguely attempts to make the loss not seem so bad, and I'd vastly prefer them to actually say nothing rather than saying nothing by saying something.


I'm of the opinion that losing should be less fun than winning, but still fun. If it isn't fun, you shouldn't be playing a game in the first place!

If you think that playing a game should ever be a negative experience, you're an idiot.

This statement operates under the assumption that "emotional pain of losing" = "not fun" which is not a true statement in my case. The emotional pain of losing is such an integral part of the gaming experience for me that it would be less fun for me NOT to have any because again, it'd be as though I don't care at all about playing the game.

[enderlord99]

This statement operates under the assumption that "emotional pain of losing" = "not fun" which is not a true statement in my case. The emotional pain of losing is such an integral part of the gaming experience for me that it would be less fun for me NOT to have any because again, it'd be as though I don't care at all about playing the game.

...If you hate something, you can't also like that something. At least not at the same time. Again, winning should be better than losing, but losing should simply be less good rather than outright bad.

I suppose that's just my opinion, but yours seems really... counterintuitive, to put it mildly.

That said, I agree with the part about what people should and should not say.

[Lheticus]

...If you hate something, you can't also like that something. At least not at the same time. Again, winning should be better than losing, but losing should simply be less good rather than outright bad.

I suppose that's just my opinion, but yours seems really... counterintuitive, to put it mildly.

That said, I agree with the part about what people should and should not say.

Where did you get that I hate losing? I didn't say that, I said it gives me emotional pain. I don't hate emotional pain. Honestly I consider myself genuinely an emotional masochist. I ENJOY emotional pain. And because of that instead of recoiling from it I can use it to make me stronger, more determined.

[Kish]

You're saying you want to play against George (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1878).

[Lheticus]

You're saying you want to play against George (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1878).

I'm saying playing against him is a hypothetical best case scenario that I recognize as too unlikely to actually happen to whatsoever legitimately desire. I'm further saying, neutrally, that attention to this aspect of what I've said in particular is a tangent. What I actually WANT to do is be my OWN "George" and analyze things after the fact to the best of my cognizance without people unwittingly cheapening the meaning of the loss that I'm thinking on. But hey, Thiyr said it, "If it's people you're gonna play with frequently, let them know." I was already planning to do that from here on even before I made this thread. There a reason I put the word rant in the subject line, guys. :smallwink: Seriously, this was 90% "get off my chest" purposed. Thank you for your concern though.

[Psyren]

There a reason I put the word rant in the subject line, guys. :smallwink: Seriously, this was 90% "get off my chest" purposed. Thank you for your concern though.

Well, it's a discussion forum, not a rant forum - if you put something out there, people may choose to respond to it a number of ways, including giving advice :smalltongue:

I will say though that I myself haven't ever gotten any pep talks or attempts to make me feel better after any kind of PvP in my gaming memory. At best I'll get a rote "gg" (or a more emphatic "gfg!" after someone I was dominating finally turns the tables or something) while at worst I will get much more crude/unsporting statements and gestures in-game, like being teabagged or naked-killed while running back to my corpse in those games that have that feature. But pretty much never any kind of cheering up or commiseration.

[Lheticus]

Well, it's a discussion forum, not a rant forum - if you put something out there, people may choose to respond to it a number of ways, including giving advice :smalltongue:

I will say though that I myself haven't ever gotten any pep talks or attempts to make me feel better after any kind of PvP in my gaming memory. At best I'll get a rote "gg" (or a more emphatic "gfg!" after someone I was dominating finally turns the tables or something) while at worst I will get much more crude/unsporting statements and gestures in-game, like being teabagged or naked-killed while running back to my corpse in those games that have that feature. But pretty much never any kind of cheering up or commiseration.

Eyup, the advice thing is pretty much immutable, but I do feel I should still make the effort to discourage it in such cases as this so I can at least say I've tried. And I more mean more in person PvP or at least online forms of PvP that are more close-knit than random matchups. And--and I've been wanting to add this point--the platitudes generally come after I've made a non-disruptive but still fairly visible indication of said emotional pain.

[Psyren]

"In-person?" Like at LAN parties or tournaments and such?

Yeah at that level/in those settings, pretty much everyone who beats you is going to be giving you (often smug) tips on what you did wrong and how you can improve, if they say anything at all. No way around it that I can see.

[Crow]

What pisses me off is in MMO's, when the match is a complete curb stomp, i.e. double premade vs PuGs, and some butthole from the winning team says "GG" at the end.

No, it was not a "good game", it wasn't even a remotely competitive game. After a win like that, you just stfu and move on to the next match. Don't waste your time with obviously empty words, because for the people on the other end of the curb stomp it was NOT a "gg". I get what you're maybe trying to do, but it just makes you look like a turd.

[Cheesegear]

Losing isn't supposed to feel good

Everyone is a winner. Participation Ribbons for everyone. Having a case of The Feel Badsies is bad.

That's the world we live in.


And--and I've been wanting to add this point--the platitudes generally come after I've made a non-disruptive but still fairly visible indication of said emotional pain.

So, here's what I've just read;
1) You WANT to feel bad.
2) When you make a visible display of emotional pain, you would PREFER that people NOT try and make that visible pain go away?

So, what I took out of it, is that whoever is beating you at whatever you're playing, is an actual human being and not a jerk. If you don't want people like that trying to help you, get better at hiding your emotions. People wanting to make your sadness go away is only a good thing, and I refuse to see it any other way. Now, whether or not you want their help at feeling better is on you, not them.

[Psyren]

What pisses me off is in MMO's, when the match is a complete curb stomp, i.e. double premade vs PuGs, and some butthole from the winning team says "GG" at the end.

No, it was not a "good game", it wasn't even a remotely competitive game. After a win like that, you just stfu and move on to the next match. Don't waste your time with obviously empty words, because for the people on the other end of the curb stomp it was NOT a "gg". I get what you're maybe trying to do, but it just makes you look like a turd.

Given that even bots automatically say "gg" now in these sorts of games, I don't think it actually means anything anymore. It may have once been used sincerely (or in some cases sarcastically) but now it just means "I acknowledge that this game has ended."

Certainly it's not a thing that should be taken personally.


If you don't want people like that trying to help you, get better at hiding your emotions.

This is probably the most practical advice for this situation.

[Rodin]

Given that even bots automatically say "gg" now in these sorts of games, I don't think it actually means anything anymore. It may have once been used sincerely (or in some cases sarcastically) but now it just means "I acknowledge that this game has ended."

Certainly it's not a thing that should be taken personally.



I've actually moved to a different formula for GG'ing, since it's become so rote.

If it was a one-sided curbstomping, I don't say GG unless someone on the other team says it.

If it was a decent game (or even just passable), I'll say GG.

If it was a fantastic closely fought game with lots of swings back and forth, I'll say something like "Great game guys, that was awesome". Something to let them know that I am sincere in my praise for a really cool fight, rather than just being rote.

---

Even in the face of a stomping, I don't mind a GG. What I do mind is a GG when someone drops or fails to show up. Do not tell me it was a GG when you just won 5v3.

Conversely, if your team just won a 4v5 match, I will not be offended if you do a little crowing. That's a grand old feeling.

[Brother Oni]

...If you hate something, you can't also like that something. At least not at the same time.

You've obviously never been married. :smalltongue:


What pisses me off is in MMO's, when the match is a complete curb stomp, i.e. double premade vs PuGs, and some butthole from the winning team says "GG" at the end.

No, it was not a "good game", it wasn't even a remotely competitive game. After a win like that, you just stfu and move on to the next match. Don't waste your time with obviously empty words, because for the people on the other end of the curb stomp it was NOT a "gg". I get what you're maybe trying to do, but it just makes you look like a turd.

Dude, you read my mind.

On the occasion that I'm on the other end of one of these, I usually try for a neutral 'Thanks for the game'.


Given that even bots automatically say "gg" now in these sorts of games, I don't think it actually means anything anymore. It may have once been used sincerely (or in some cases sarcastically) but now it just means "I acknowledge that this game has ended."

Certainly it's not a thing that should be taken personally.


While I agree, 'GG' had an original meaning and using it as a mindless platitude doesn't strip it of that meaning.

It's like Taylor Swift in her video 22, where she raises her index and middle fingers to represent 2. While she just means it as the number 2, it's still an offensive gesture in the UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#As_an_insult).

[OracleofWuffing]

In the circles I'm part of, "GG" has also come to mean "Get good," which adds a whole 'nother layer to the "meaningless" part.

[Lheticus]

What pisses me off is in MMO's, when the match is a complete curb stomp, i.e. double premade vs PuGs, and some butthole from the winning team says "GG" at the end.

No, it was not a "good game", it wasn't even a remotely competitive game. After a win like that, you just stfu and move on to the next match. Don't waste your time with obviously empty words, because for the people on the other end of the curb stomp it was NOT a "gg". I get what you're maybe trying to do, but it just makes you look like a turd.

MAH BROTHA! My comrade in gaming! ^_^


Given that even bots automatically say "gg" now in these sorts of games, I don't think it actually means anything anymore. It may have once been used sincerely (or in some cases sarcastically) but now it just means "I acknowledge that this game has ended."

Certainly it's not a thing that should be taken personally.



This is probably the most practical advice for this situation.

I've already said twice that I'm just going to ask people not to do it before the fact. I think to really say that said advice is necessary would require me to at least determine that just asking them beforehand won't work, which I haven't yet.


You've obviously never been married. :smalltongue:



Dude, you read my mind.

On the occasion that I'm on the other end of one of these, I usually try for a neutral 'Thanks for the game'.



While I agree, 'GG' had an original meaning and using it as a mindless platitude doesn't strip it of that meaning.

It's like Taylor Swift in her video 22, where she raises her index and middle fingers to represent 2. While she just means it as the number 2, it's still an offensive gesture in the UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#As_an_insult).

"Thanks for the game" seems like a really good idea for such a response in that situation. From now on when someone puts "gg" and it wasn't one I'll put "ty4g" :smallsmile: I actually disagree that "gg" hasn't been stripped of all meaning--I believe it has, and believe it's a travesty against human thought when any phrase is reduced to a meaningless perfunctory platitude including this one.

[Chen]

Really language constantly evolves. GG has basically become the short hand (and online) version of shaking hands after a game.

[Manticoran]

I always gg, basically just as a "Thank you for playing this game with me, regardless of how it went one way or another." It has literally nothing to do with whether the game was good, and more of an acknowledgement that without the other people in the game, the game would not exist.

[Brother Oni]

Really language constantly evolves. GG has basically become the short hand (and online) version of shaking hands after a game.

While I agree that language constantly evolves, the critical part of your statement is the 'and online' clause.

A sub-culture that co-opts a common word or phrase doesn't usually change the original meaning of that word or phrase - for example, is a cottage a small rural house or a public lavatory used for homosexual sexual encounters?

Even if online culture uses 'gg' to represent the shaking of hands after a game, it doesn't stop it meaning 'good game' and its better known meaning the phrase has in English.
As other people have noted while they don't intend any other meaning other than the neutral handshake but due to the nature of the medium, there's no context by the person receiving the message, thus leaving 'gg' open for interpretation and the patronising tone the phrase takes when the game has been so completely one sided.

[Psyren]

I've already said twice that I'm just going to ask people not to do it before the fact. I think to really say that said advice is necessary would require me to at least determine that just asking them beforehand won't work, which I haven't yet.

Like, before the match, or right after you lose but before they can say anything?


While I agree that language constantly evolves, the critical part of your statement is the 'and online' clause.

A sub-culture that co-opts a common word or phrase doesn't usually change the original meaning of that word or phrase - for example, is a cottage a small rural house or a public lavatory used for homosexual sexual encounters?

Even if online culture uses 'gg' to represent the shaking of hands after a game, it doesn't stop it meaning 'good game' and its better known meaning the phrase has in English.
As other people have noted while they don't intend any other meaning other than the neutral handshake but due to the nature of the medium, there's no context by the person receiving the message, thus leaving 'gg' open for interpretation and the patronising tone the phrase takes when the game has been so completely one sided.

Well if you are aware that it is commonly (perhaps even most commonly now) used in a rote/neutral/non-patronizing way and simply choose to be offended by it anyway, I would say that is on you. Personally I don't see a point in assuming the worst in people/situations like that, it just seems like a one-way ticket to an ulcer or being perpetually ticked-off at things you cannot control.

[Lheticus]

Like, before the match, or right after you lose but before they can say anything?

I plan on attempting it before the match. It'd probably go something like "Uh, quick request, if you beat me and I like take it a little hard, please don't say anything, I'll be fine really."

[Manticoran]

Why not just... Not say anything to them, since that's what you're asking in return?

[Knaight]

While I agree that language constantly evolves, the critical part of your statement is the 'and online' clause.

A sub-culture that co-opts a common word or phrase doesn't usually change the original meaning of that word or phrase - for example, is a cottage a small rural house or a public lavatory used for homosexual sexual encounters?

On the other hand, when the word is being used by members of that sub-culture towards other members of that sub-culture while interacting in a way defined by that sub-culture then it's generally pretty clear that the definition in question is the one from the subculture. It would be one thing if we were talking about someone saying "good game" in a face to face chess competition after trouncing their opponent. That's just rubbing it in. In a game played online? The definition is pretty clearly an acknowledgement that a game was played. Plus, in some games it might genuinely be a good game - sure, it was a one sided trouncing, but maybe it was a one sided trouncing where nobody was throwing around racial slurs willy-nilly, and that's progress (e.g. in League of Legends as of a few years ago).

[Manticoran]

Also it can be a one-sided trouncing where everyone played well. Sometimes someone just gets a small edge and snowballs it properly or something, and despite everyone on both teams playing well that can end a game pretty quickly.

I really dislike the idea that if one side wins hard, it was not a good game. The only time I could consider it not being a gg is when trolls or afk occur, and then usually I'd still gg out of respect for the people who played it anyway, or if the troll/afk was on my team out of respect for the fact that it's not the enemies fault someone on my team was a troll/afk.

[GolemsVoice]

In most cases, wehn people say anything more than gg or good game, it's because they're either jerks, which becomes obvious pretty soon, or because they don't want you to feel bad, which, yes, is a good thing.

If you don't want that, jsut give them a quick warning. That should be fine.

[FireJustice]

Gaming etiquette. It's cordial to shake your adversary hand before and after a match.
it's expected. It's also a signal of respect.

Saying "gg" or good game, it's the equivalent of that handshake.

You should play to win. But not play to only win.

Play to get better.
Even if it's not your win, you can still improve. So a good sportmans that took the win from you may coment that.

Also, good opponents expect you to improve, so there's still a challenge.
If you get all butt hurt in emotional pain and stuff, there is no way you will play better

Yeah, people today may like to curbstomp here an there. But it gets old fast. So when people try to aleviate a defeat, it's to get their opponent back in so the game can still be a challenge.

[Psyren]

Well, let me also play devil's advocate by quoting another gem from The Giant: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0980.html)


Emotions are tricky. You can't really sort out the ones you want from the ones you don't.

So I can understand that someone might be irritated by behavior other folks find innocent.

But the counterpoint to that is - you can't control what constitutes a button for you, nor when someone might push your buttons. But you do have control over the wiring, i.e. what those buttons do. And I don't see the point in letting someone know your buttons especially in a competitive setting, where even an otherwise sporting person might be tempted to prod you for a brief edge.

[Winthur]

would be much easier to not lose (so much) if the time spent on making quality™ threads were spent on practice

[Crow]

would be much easier to not lose (so much) if the time spent on making quality™ threads were spent on practice

How dare somebody spend some of their time to make a thread about something at a time when they may be unable to play video games (on break from work, waiting at the dmv, etc). Obviously Lheticus should spend every free moment playing video games.

[Lethologica]

Just gonna swing back to the original topic for a sec, since it had nothing to do with the "GG" handshake:


Eyup, the advice thing is pretty much immutable, but I do feel I should still make the effort to discourage it in such cases as this so I can at least say I've tried. And I more mean more in person PvP or at least online forms of PvP that are more close-knit than random matchups. And--and I've been wanting to add this point--the platitudes generally come after I've made a non-disruptive but still fairly visible indication of said emotional pain.
So, this changes the perspective somewhat. Depending on the context and degree, such displays can make the other player(s) distinctly uncomfortable, and their attempt to alleviate your emotional pain is also an attempt to alleviate their own discomfort. Or maybe they think you didn't play as badly as your emotional response would suggest. I've been on both sides of both situations. There are condescending types too, but that's only part of the story.

[Psyren]

Just gonna swing back to the original topic for a sec, since it had nothing to do with the "GG" handshake:


So, this changes the perspective somewhat. Depending on the context and degree, such displays can make the other player(s) distinctly uncomfortable, and their attempt to alleviate your emotional pain is also an attempt to alleviate their own discomfort. Or maybe they think you didn't play as badly as your emotional response would suggest. I've been on both sides of both situations. There are condescending types too, but that's only part of the story.

Indeed - which brings us back to Cheesegear's suggestion in #13.

[Lethologica]

Indeed - which brings us back to Cheesegear's suggestion in #13.
Oh. I missed that part of the conversation--and Lheticus' affirmation of Crow's "GG" sentiment. So I guess I'm the one who's off topic after all. :smallcool:

[Gandariel]

I too use GG as a handshake. depending on the game, also GLHF at the start.

It's just showing respect, no matter how it ended. If I get curb stomped (or i curb stomp someone), I'll still GG and expect one in return.

I might add something if there is something to say, but not necessarily. (Like "that moment was awesome, " "yeah, I did that risky thing and it ended up well/bad" "you should really do XXX, it would have been strong")

Especially with clearly inferior opponents, when I have the chance I take a second to give some advice (typically in Hearthstone ill help my opponents improve their deck)

[Psyren]

Oh. I missed that part of the conversation--and Lheticus' affirmation of Crow's "GG" sentiment. So I guess I'm the one who's off topic after all. :smallcool:

Not at all, I was agreeing with you :smallsmile:



Especially with clearly inferior opponents, when I have the chance I take a second to give some advice (typically in Hearthstone ill help my opponents improve their deck)

I admit I haven't played much (any) competitive HS, but I thought you weren't allowed to talk to each other aside from the pre-baked sound bites? Or is that only mid-game, or did they change that?

[CantigThimble]

I kinda get what you're coming from. I don't have the whole "Proud to lose" thing going but I get not wanting to hear platitudes when I lose. Basically what I do if I'm feeling emotional pain and don't want them to respond like that is I try cracking jokes or asking them about their play or mine. If there's a silence with the obvious emotional pain making it awkward of COURSE they're going to try to fill it. So just make some post game small talk so they won't have to.

[Brother Oni]

Personally I don't see a point in assuming the worst in people/situations like that, it just seems like a one-way ticket to an ulcer or being perpetually ticked-off at things you cannot control.

I'm well aware that I'm fast on my way to becoming a crochety old man, but as Crow has proved, I'm not the only one who feels that way. :smalltongue:

Also, it's the internet; one should always assume the worst, thus you're always prepared when you're right and pleasantly surprised when you're wrong.


On the other hand, when the word is being used by members of that sub-culture towards other members of that sub-culture while interacting in a way defined by that sub-culture then it's generally pretty clear that the definition in question is the one from the subculture.

Except it could also be an insulting 'get good' as Oracle of Wuffing pointed out and there's no way to tell the difference due to the nature of the interaction medium. :smallamused:
There's also the issue that not all people who are playing are from that sub-culture (I play (a lot of) games, but I wouldn't really define myself as a gamer), so it leaves the phrase open. In something like a tournament, I would agree that it means exclusively what you mean; in comparison to a standard open game where anybody with an internet connection can log in and play, I would argue there's a range of interpretations.


Gaming etiquette. It's cordial to shake your adversary hand before and after a match.
it's expected. It's also a signal of respect.

Saying "gg" or good game, it's the equivalent of that handshake.

To you maybe, but others may interpret your gesture differently. Try giving a roman salute in Germany as a greeting and see how that turns out for you.

In comparison, GLHF at the start of a game is polite and there's usually no baggage associated with it, since the game hasn't been played yet.
You've noted yourself that 'GG' means good game and after a typical random queue game in League with other pubbies, there's a high chance that the game wasn't at all good or enjoyable for the losing side, so why rub it in with a 'good game' when it obviously wasn't?

There's obviously a wide range of interpretations, with some people reading it as a virtual handshake with no meaning behind it, while others still recognise the original meaning of the phrase. I'm not here to prove it one way or the other, I just want to point out that different people will take things differently and given that a significant part of communication is non-verbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonverbal_communication) (or written in this case), in my opinion typing in a 'gg' after a game that's been filled with raging, profanities and racial slurs, would not be appropriate and you shouldn't be too surprised if people are upset.



Play to get better.
Even if it's not your win, you can still improve. So a good sportmans that took the win from you may coment that.

Also, good opponents expect you to improve, so there's still a challenge.
If you get all butt hurt in emotional pain and stuff, there is no way you will play better


It isn't the curb stomping we're complaining about, it's the mindless patronising platitude that sometimes comes at the end of a curb stomping.

Depending on the game, it sometimes doesn't matter how well you play if the rest of your team can't keep up. In World of Tanks, a tier 4 scout isn't going to be able to carry the match if it gets thrown into a tier 9 game due to matchmaking. Likewise in League of Legends, a support isn't going to be able to win the game alone if your carry is incompetent.

[Lethologica]

To you maybe, but others may interpret your gesture differently. Try giving a roman salute in Germany as a greeting and see how that turns out for you.

In comparison, GLHF at the start of a game is polite and there's usually no baggage associated with it, since the game hasn't been played yet.
You've noted yourself that 'GG' means good game and after a typical random queue game in League with other pubbies, there's a high chance that the game wasn't at all good or enjoyable for the losing side, so why rub it in with a 'good game' when it obviously wasn't?

There's obviously a wide range of interpretations, with some people reading it as a virtual handshake with no meaning behind it, while others still recognise the original meaning of the phrase. I'm not here to prove it one way or the other, I just want to point out that different people will take things differently and given that a significant part of communication is non-verbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonverbal_communication) (or written in this case), in my opinion typing in a 'gg' after a game that's been filled with raging, profanities and racial slurs, would not be appropriate and you shouldn't be too surprised if people are upset.
Who exits a game full of raging, profanities, and racial slurs...and complains about the GG?

Besides, there are plenty of unambiguously trash-talking GGs out there, mostly spammed GGs or GGs that come well before end of game. All GGs are not created equal.

It's not just the listener who realizes text-only communication loses shades of meaning. People who want to be hostile will usually go ahead and communicate something that's obviously hostile even in a text-only medium. Early/spammed GGs are one example. Raging, profanities, and racial slurs are some others. All in all, going after the people who appear to be using GG in the conventional, end-of-game-handshake context just because you don't know they aren't saying it with a snide tone in their head seems unnecessarily trigger-happy.

[GolemsVoice]

I've played online for quite a while, and this is the first time I've heard gg interpreted as "get good". Is it really that common?

[Lheticus]

Well, let me also play devil's advocate by quoting another gem from The Giant: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0980.html)



So I can understand that someone might be irritated by behavior other folks find innocent.

But the counterpoint to that is - you can't control what constitutes a button for you, nor when someone might push your buttons. But you do have control over the wiring, i.e. what those buttons do. And I don't see the point in letting someone know your buttons especially in a competitive setting, where even an otherwise sporting person might be tempted to prod you for a brief edge.


I kinda get what you're coming from. I don't have the whole "Proud to lose" thing going but I get not wanting to hear platitudes when I lose. Basically what I do if I'm feeling emotional pain and don't want them to respond like that is I try cracking jokes or asking them about their play or mine. If there's a silence with the obvious emotional pain making it awkward of COURSE they're going to try to fill it. So just make some post game small talk so they won't have to.

Hrm. I don't think I could crack jokes, but perhaps I could master some sort of humorous dripping sarcasm in live TCG events. Or perhaps attempt to limit myself to something like "welp, there ya go."


Just gonna swing back to the original topic for a sec, since it had nothing to do with the "GG" handshake:


So, this changes the perspective somewhat. Depending on the context and degree, such displays can make the other player(s) distinctly uncomfortable, and their attempt to alleviate your emotional pain is also an attempt to alleviate their own discomfort. Or maybe they think you didn't play as badly as your emotional response would suggest. I've been on both sides of both situations. There are condescending types too, but that's only part of the story.

It's not that I feel they're being condescending, it's that what they're saying is so obvious to the point of utter uselessness that really it'd be the same darned difference if they said something at all, so why can't they just be tacitly instead of actively useless and just NOT say anything?! I will say that CantigThimble provided a very good answer to that question though, the best I've heard yet certainly. So as I stated before, a possible way to alleviate that so they don't feel a need to reduce the awkwardness would be for me to attempt to respond with humorous snark or a brief deadpan response rather than more open expression.

[Grif]

I've played online for quite a while, and this is the first time I've heard gg interpreted as "get good". Is it really that common?

Pretty sure I never seen gg used in that context.

[Lethologica]

It's not that I feel they're being condescending, it's that what they're saying is so obvious to the point of utter uselessness that really it'd be the same darned difference if they said something at all, so why can't they just be tacitly instead of actively useless and just NOT say anything?! I will say that CantigThimble provided a very good answer to that question though, the best I've heard yet certainly. So as I stated before, a possible way to alleviate that so they don't feel a need to reduce the awkwardness would be to attempt to respond with humorous snark or a brief deadpan response rather than more open expression.
I can't respond to "obvious to the point of utter uselessness," because presumptive perfect anticipation on your part negates anything I can say about the other player(s) genuinely seeing the game differently than you did. But the point where you're frustrated to the point of expressing it is often the point where you're thinking least clearly.

Anyway, the most effective way to avoid provoking an unwanted response is to stay completely within convention--GG, or shake hands, or whatever is the norm for the given environment, and go somewhere else to emote.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I will definitely say that this is also something I'm awkwardly feeling through, thanks to my stint on online Yomi. After a game, I try and make a habit of highlighting my opponent's skill, especially stuff that might not've been obvious to them, like how they totally had me terrified during one gamestate, even if they didn't realize it. (Other times, it's obvious, like when I had to mount a comeback from a 2 life-78 life deficit, but at that point it was "HOLY #&*!!*!% HOLY !#*(%#!*#!) I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M STILL ALIVE".)

Even when it's a lopsided victory, I try to find something that I can genuinely praise them for, like "you're actually handling that character really well, and you didn't have a lot of options against my character". It does feel weird to give them what would more or less amount to empty praise, although I've ritualized "gg" to the point where I drop it as a point of sportsmanship.

[Gandariel]

I admit I haven't played much (any) competitive HS, but I thought you weren't allowed to talk to each other aside from the pre-baked sound bites? Or is that only mid-game, or did they change that?

No, it hasn't changed. But after a game, you can add your previous opponent. So sometimes i just add the guy, and if he accepts me i'll talk to him.

[TechnoWarforged]

In the Starcraft Community people say GG on every game.

You can see examples in every tournaments the two Players say "GG" even if they got cheesed or stomped.

In fact, the few times when players don't say GG, it's consider BM (Bad Manner) i.e. The Player "IDRA"

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gamer_Etiquette


Leaving without GG is frowned upon but not officially punished.[3]



Put yourself in the other guy's shoes for example: If you don't say GG it's considered bad manner, but If you say GG you are a condescending jerk. The Guy is now in a double bind: Your opponent is view negatively no matter what he or she does.

Also you have to view things in different perspective. You opponent may never know how far ahead he/she is or what's happening at your end (Especially in a game with Fog of War) but he/she is still aware of any mistakes he or she makes. He or she may have felt the game is actually closer then it seems and therefore warrant a "GG".

This isn't directed at anyone, but it's kinda funny that people would feel so frustrated after a game. Ultimately the wins and losses that occur in video games isn't real. I can't imagine how people being caught up with "GG" can cope with real life failures whether in Sports or their own daily lives.

[GloatingSwine]

Put yourself in the other guy's shoes for example: If you don't say GG it's considered bad manner, but If you say GG you are a condescending jerk. The Guy is now in a double bind: Your opponent is view negatively no matter what he or she does.


In Starcraft specifically it's usually the loser who says GG and then quits. It's basically a polite way to concede rather than just quitting.

If you say GG when you think you're winning it's bad manners. (nothing is more satisfying in a replay than seeing someone throw out a premature GG then lose).


No, it hasn't changed. But after a game, you can add your previous opponent. So sometimes i just add the guy, and if he accepts me i'll talk to him.

Though most people will be wary about that because 99% of the time all they get is a rage message about how your deck was totally (dr.) balanced and you only won by luck and should fite them irl.


I've played online for quite a while, and this is the first time I've heard gg interpreted as "get good". Is it really that common?

Being told to Get Good isn't about the outcome of a particular match. It's usually a response to people blaming the game (in overlong and highly repetitive forum whining) for their own failures at it, particularly when their criticisms demonstrate their own lack of understanding. It is basically dismissing someone because they don't know enough about the game to comment usefully on it.

I have never seen GG used to mean "Get Good".

[Chen]

It's not that I feel they're being condescending, it's that what they're saying is so obvious to the point of utter uselessness that really it'd be the same darned difference if they said something at all, so why can't they just be tacitly instead of actively useless and just NOT say anything?! I will say that CantigThimble provided a very good answer to that question though, the best I've heard yet certainly. So as I stated before, a possible way to alleviate that so they don't feel a need to reduce the awkwardness would be for me to attempt to respond with humorous snark or a brief deadpan response rather than more open expression.

Really though in a tournament setting a "well played" or "good game" and handshake is pretty much all you'd need to do after a game. In a more casual environment you probably don't need to shake their hand. Instead either offer another game ("try again?") or something like "hmm maybe I need to tweak my deck a bit" (assuming a TCG). Just sitting there in silence is almost certainly going to provoke some sort of response from them just to fill the silence.

Getting used to people just making small talk (i.e., the uselessness you mention) is probably something you should get used to. People often use that in situations that are threatening to be awkward. Accepting the useless small talk as opposed to getting angry at it is an important skill in and of itself.

[MCerberus]

I don't believe it's bylaw in the USCF or WCF but in many chess tournaments refusal to shake hands at the beginning and end of a match is grounds for forfeiture of the match or DQ'ing from the tournament. You're silent until the match has been put into record and then it's generally considered polite but unnecessary to small-talk about the game or other topics.

And in the waiting periods you can see why. The closure and civility of it helps clear your head, and it fosters likely the least toxic competitive environment possible. Card games between rounds for rivals are far, far, FAR more common than argument.

The "GG" is basic, anything more than that is an attempt to show respect for you as an opponent. It's why people were commonly banned in LoL during the tribunal days for "GG EZ". You do not mess with this tradition.

[Lheticus]

Really though in a tournament setting a "well played" or "good game" and handshake is pretty much all you'd need to do after a game. In a more casual environment you probably don't need to shake their hand. Instead either offer another game ("try again?") or something like "hmm maybe I need to tweak my deck a bit" (assuming a TCG). Just sitting there in silence is almost certainly going to provoke some sort of response from them just to fill the silence.

Getting used to people just making small talk (i.e., the uselessness you mention) is probably something you should get used to. People often use that in situations that are threatening to be awkward. Accepting the useless small talk as opposed to getting angry at it is an important skill in and of itself.

I don't have a problem with "gg". I have a problem with "hey, losses happen" and "yeah, sometimes you get unlucky". THAT is the sort of comment I mean by comments that are so obvious as to be meaningless to the point of saying nothing even though you're saying something. But really I already have a working plan to attempt to try and halt such things happening with my losses, as I elucidated a few posts ago.

[GolemsVoice]

Except they are not meaningless, and not useless. Sure the enemy will likely not shed a tear over your loss, but it ends the game on a friendly note and is meant to dissolve tension. The enemy player wants to show you that he's not going to be smug about his victory, and he wants to cheer you up a little. You may not like this, which is your right, but the enemy at worst trying to be polite, and at best trying to cheer you up a little.

In the hostile world of online gaming that's a very good thing.

[Lethologica]

I don't have a problem with "gg".
your sig says otherwise

Also, Chen isn't suggesting you have a problem with GG, he's suggesting that you GG instead of doing your emotional whatever-it-is, and that you get used to useless small talk like "losses happen" or "sometimes you get unlucky," because it's how other people defuse the awkward post-emotional-whatever-it-is silence. It's born of good intentions, but it's not just for your sake, so the fact that you don't personally find it helpful doesn't mean they shouldn't do it, or that you shouldn't have to deal with it, given that you create those situations.

[Lheticus]

your sig says otherwise

Also, Chen isn't suggesting you have a problem with GG, he's suggesting that you GG instead of doing your emotional whatever-it-is, and that you get used to useless small talk like "losses happen" or "sometimes you get unlucky," because it's how other people defuse the awkward post-emotional-whatever-it-is silence. It's born of good intentions, but it's not just for your sake, so the fact that you don't personally find it helpful doesn't mean they shouldn't do it, or that you shouldn't have to deal with it, given that you create those situations.

Well okay, I have a problem with GG, but I've gotten myself to a point where it doesn't actually irritate me to hear it. And I had mentioned ways that I want to attempt to make sure the awkwardness after I lose a game DOESN'T happen. A non awkward, more graceful way to lose. No awkward, no need for meaningless platitudes to attempt to break the tension.

[Lethologica]

Well okay, I have a problem with GG, but I've gotten myself to a point where it doesn't actually irritate me to hear it. And I had mentioned ways that I want to attempt to make sure the awkwardness after I lose a game DOESN'T happen. A non awkward, more graceful way to lose. No awkward, no need for meaningless platitudes to attempt to break the tension.
Yes--and I've made my suggestion on that score as well.

(Of course, since tips are the post-game conversation you value most, you could also ask for them where applicable.)

[Lheticus]

Yes--and I've made my suggestion on that score as well.

(Of course, since tips are the post-game conversation you value most, you could also ask for them where applicable.)

Could you direct me as to what that suggestion was? I seem to have lost track of it. >_<

[Lethologica]

Could you direct me as to what that suggestion was? I seem to have lost track of it. >_<
It was here:

Anyway, the most effective way to avoid provoking an unwanted response is to stay completely within convention--GG, or shake hands, or whatever is the norm for the given environment, and go somewhere else to emote.

[Lheticus]

Ah, I missed the "go somewhere else" thing. But other than my car, there's not a whole lot of else to go to that I won't be noticed and in many situations, especially lately, there isn't time for me to walk out that way right after a loss.

[Crow]

If I'm on the winning end of a curbstomp battle, I usually say nothing at all, or congratulate my teammates with a "gj team" or something like that in our group chat.

If I feel the need to say something to the other team, I try to compliment one or two of the enemy players who I felt played well, despite the loss. I never say "good game" if it wasn't a competitive game.

[Brother Oni]

Who exits a game full of raging, profanities, and racial slurs...and complains about the GG?

The GG is just the cherry on top of an excrement cake.

As I said, some people take it as the digital representation of a handshake, completely divorced from the phrase 'good game' - it could be represented by a shaking hands pictogram and there wouldn't be any difference. Others take it to represent the original phrase and use of it in certain situations like you've pointed out can be infuriating to some people.


I've played online for quite a while, and this is the first time I've heard gg interpreted as "get good". Is it really that common?

You'd have to ask Oracle of Wuffing as he was the one who mentioned it.



Put yourself in the other guy's shoes for example: If you don't say GG it's considered bad manner, but If you say GG you are a condescending jerk. The Guy is now in a double bind: Your opponent is view negatively no matter what he or she does.

"Thank you for the game"?



This isn't directed at anyone, but it's kinda funny that people would feel so frustrated after a game. Ultimately the wins and losses that occur in video games isn't real. I can't imagine how people being caught up with "GG" can cope with real life failures whether in Sports or their own daily lives.

Usually because in real life situations, people tend not to be as condescending or arrogant if their opponent is within arm's reach.

You're also making a false equivalence that people who get annoyed with patronising platitudes are also incapable of dealing with failure in real life situations.

I'd also argue that wins and losses in video games are indeed real, especially if it costs you an prize winning position in a league/tournament, if the game has some form of RMT or you make a living from playing video games. Your opponent acting like a GIFT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect) poster child will only aggravate the issue and I can find several reports where the 'non-real video game' has spilled into real life with fatal results.

[Chen]

Well okay, I have a problem with GG, but I've gotten myself to a point where it doesn't actually irritate me to hear it. And I had mentioned ways that I want to attempt to make sure the awkwardness after I lose a game DOESN'T happen. A non awkward, more graceful way to lose. No awkward, no need for meaningless platitudes to attempt to break the tension.

And for the other player, to avoid being left in awkward silence they'll probably say something as well, like "good game", "close one", "unlucky break there" etc. The fact you get upset over this type of thing is a problem. My point, as Lethologica said, was you need to get used to that type of small talk. Forget just in games, small talk comes up in many aspects of life. The content of what is being said is mostly pointless, but that's because the intent of the small talk isn't the content being expressed but rather the simple act of expressing it to reduce tension, break awkward silences etc.

[Lheticus]

I wouldn't get upset over anyone saying such things as you state. An extremely brief comment like "bad luck there" or w/e is totally different to me from "hey, (insert BSey thing here) happens." The fact that such things happen in your examples is implicit, which I'm perfectly fine with perfectly obvious things being implicit. In my example, it's stated outright when it really shouldn't need to be. There's a difference in attitude as well. In your example, such statements are basically an acknowledgment--"yep, that just happened" rather than any attempt to comfort me.

So like I said, if I can just make it so I don't visibly seem to need to be comforted, there will not be a problem. It's easier said than done but I think I have a good starting point here.

[Chen]

I wouldn't get upset over anyone saying such things as you state. An extremely brief comment like "bad luck there" or w/e is totally different to me from "hey, (insert BSey thing here) happens." The fact that such things happen in your examples is implicit, which I'm perfectly fine with perfectly obvious things being implicit. In my example, it's stated outright when it really shouldn't need to be. There's a difference in attitude as well. In your example, such statements are basically an acknowledgment--"yep, that just happened" rather than any attempt to comfort me.

So like I said, if I can just make it so I don't visibly seem to need to be comforted, there will not be a problem. It's easier said than done but I think I have a good starting point here.

How is "unlucky break there" (my example) any different from "yeah sometimes you get unlucky" (your example). In any case its beyond the point I was making. Even the "oh well losses happen" can be considered inane small talk. People say all sorts of things. Not visibly seeming to need comforting is not really solving the root of the problem here. Sure it may reduce some cases, but people are going to say random crap about the game/outcome after a game in person regardless of how you're looking. Sometimes it will essentially be condolences on a lost game. Good sportsmanship (gamesmanship?) is pretty much to take the comment in stride perhaps say something similarly inane or nod curtly, shake hands and move on.

[Lheticus]

How is "unlucky break there" (my example) any different from "yeah sometimes you get unlucky" (your example). In any case its beyond the point I was making. Even the "oh well losses happen" can be considered inane small talk. People say all sorts of things. Not visibly seeming to need comforting is not really solving the root of the problem here. Sure it may reduce some cases, but people are going to say random crap about the game/outcome after a game in person regardless of how you're looking. Sometimes it will essentially be condolences on a lost game. Good sportsmanship (gamesmanship?) is pretty much to take the comment in stride perhaps say something similarly inane or nod curtly, shake hands and move on.

The difference is in the attitude of the statement and whether something tautologically obvious is implied or outright stated. In my example, they're phrasing it that way in an attempt to alleviate the emotional pain I display. In yours, they're just pointing it out as a thing that happens, remaining neutral instead of pitying me, which they would more inclined to do if I am not displaying emotional pain. It may be so that ceasing the display will not eliminate such instances entirely, but I believe it will reduce the instances of banal postgame small talk that are in a form that annoy me FAR more than you're insinuating.

[Brother Oni]

I'm with Chen on this (my complaint is regarding use of 'gg' in a specific circumstance). Small talk at the end of a match is going to happen and provided your opponent is polite about winning, you should be equally graceful in defeat.

[Lethologica]

The GG is just the cherry on top of an excrement cake.
If it's by the players who were raging and throwing around profanities and racial slurs, sure. And you know it is because of what those players said before, because that's how people behave when they want to offend--they don't throw out a single ordinary-but-slightly-ambiguous expression, they make their offense insultingly obvious, because getting the insult across is the point.

Which, by extension, means that if a player doesn't otherwise offend, and types "GG" at the end, you can assume it's probably not the offensive kind of GG. The wonders of text-only communication!


As I said, some people take it as the digital representation of a handshake, completely divorced from the phrase 'good game' - it could be represented by a shaking hands pictogram and there wouldn't be any difference. Others take it to represent the original phrase and use of it in certain situations like you've pointed out can be infuriating to some people.
Not just digital, for that matter--in my youth soccer league we said it after every game by convention.

And my point was that in the situations I described, anyone digitally literate takes GG as the offensive kind, because that's how digital communication works. So that doesn't help you with the argument that ordinary GGs can consequently be seen as offensive, lopsided outcome or no. I mean, I can see that argument being made separately, since Crow already made it ("GG when it's a lopsided game is offensive because lopsided games aren't good games"), but that doesn't mean I agree with it any more than I did to begin with.


I wouldn't get upset over anyone saying such things as you state. An extremely brief comment like "bad luck there" or w/e is totally different to me from "hey, (insert BSey thing here) happens."
How so?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Not just digital, for that matter--in my youth soccer league we said it after every game by convention.

Huh! Now that you mention it, my youth baseball league did the same thing; we'd line up for walk-by hi-5s and "good game" the other team.

[Aedilred]

I've always thought that graciousness both in victory and defeat is part of the essence of sportsmanship. And shaking hands at the end of an in-person game is pretty much a minimum expectation. There's a reason this picture became so famous:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46060000/jpg/_46060580_flintoff1_2005.jpg

Context for those unaware: Lee (left) had just taken Australia to the brink of victory before losing, in what remains one of the closest matches ever in that form of the game. Flintoff (right) had been one of the key England players in that match and immediately went over to console him at the end of the game.

Online customs seem to be slightly different and I'm still not sure what they really are. The game I play most frequently online is chess; I'm not particularly good, and win and lose roughly an equal number of matches. I don't really like chat during a game, unless I know my opponent very well, and even then I prefer for it not to be about the game. It's rare for people to talk about the game during play though, and those that do often use it to send abuse (very rarely). It's usual for players just to depart at the end of a game without saying anything, although some will offer a "gg" and seem to do so by rote rather than with any reference to the quality of the game just played.

I run into a depressing number of players who open with an attempt at Scholar's Mate, which is pretty much the cheapest way you can attempt to checkmate anyone and no good player will fall for it. These players tend to play like complete jerks. It's also common for them to abandon a game when their initial ploy fails and leave it to time out (thus wasting my time) rather than playing on or resigning. Getting a "gg" from such a player feels like an insult, although it is rare. On the other hand, after a close and thoughtful game, win or lose, I like to make some notice of my appreciation for the game just played. Unfortunately, with "gg" or even "good game" having lost all meaning, I tend to end up with a rather more cumbersome "thanks for the game" which I suppose at least comes across more sincerely.

I don't particularly like an analytical "here's where you made your mistake" unless the purpose of the game was training or unless I specifically ask. Generally I know where I made my mistake or what went wrong and having it pointed out is just annoying, even if it's not meant as gloating. Then again I did previously play quite a lot of Blood Bowl on FUMBBL and there sometimes players would commiserate on the basis my luck in that game had been terrible, which I tended to appreciate (obviously it's not really a factor in chess). But I do still appreciate courtesy from my opponent, even if I'd rather they expressed it in a slightly different way.

[Brother Oni]

And my point was that in the situations I described, anyone digitally literate takes GG as the offensive kind, because that's how digital communication works. So that doesn't help you with the argument that ordinary GGs can consequently be seen as offensive, lopsided outcome or no. I mean, I can see that argument being made separately, since Crow already made it ("GG when it's a lopsided game is offensive because lopsided games aren't good games"), but that doesn't mean I agree with it any more than I did to begin with.

And that's perfectly fine; we both have different outlooks on life and in my opinion, there's no right or wrong answer for the rather subjective question of 'what do you find offensive?'.


Then again I did previously play quite a lot of Blood Bowl on FUMBBL and there sometimes players would commiserate on the basis my luck in that game had been terrible, which I tended to appreciate (obviously it's not really a factor in chess). But I do still appreciate courtesy from my opponent, even if I'd rather they expressed it in a slightly different way.

Blood Bowl is a slightly special case as you could not make a single wrong play and still lose if the dice don't fall in your favour, so any player should be able to sympathise if Nuffle decides that he wants to screw you over this game (which is pretty much every game at the moment in the GitP leagues I'm in :smallsigh:).

[Knaight]

And that's perfectly fine; we both have different outlooks on life and in my opinion, there's no right or wrong answer for the rather subjective question of 'what do you find offensive?'.

While this is true, there's still a level of predictability in this. "Good game" is clearly being read as inoffensive by most people here, with a few exceptions. Meanwhile I can reasonably assume that "have you considered not playing like you're completely incompetent?" is going to go over poorly just about all of the time. The question of whether any individual thing is personally offensive to the person doing the considering is subjective; objective data could be collected about the thoughts of a group as a whole, and information could be collected regarding reasoning.

[Brother Oni]

"Good game" is clearly being read as inoffensive by most people here, with a few exceptions.

I agree. I think what we're quibbling on is when are those exceptions. For me, it's just at the losing end of a lopsided victory, while others find a premature one just as irritating.


The question of whether any individual thing is personally offensive to the person doing the considering is subjective; objective data could be collected about the thoughts of a group as a whole, and information could be collected regarding reasoning.

If you meant a group consisting of GitP'ers, then I would agree, since most people seem to be fairly reasonable here.

If you meant a group in terms of gaming culture as a whole, then I'd be very careful about using group consensus as an acceptable norm, particularly due to the very vocal toxic element.

[Kalmageddon]

If I curbstomp someone in a competitive discipline, I'm still going to shake hands afterwards. I'm still going to show respect and hope that he's a big enough person to not take his loss personally.

Saying "gg" after a game is a handshake, nothing more nothing less. The game doesn't need to be actually good, the fact that someone played until the end a losing game is often enough to show appreciation.

Basically, I strongly disagree with the OP.

[Gaelbert]

What pisses me off is in MMO's, when the match is a complete curb stomp, i.e. double premade vs PuGs, and some butthole from the winning team says "GG" at the end.

No, it was not a "good game", it wasn't even a remotely competitive game. After a win like that, you just stfu and move on to the next match. Don't waste your time with obviously empty words, because for the people on the other end of the curb stomp it was NOT a "gg". I get what you're maybe trying to do, but it just makes you look like a turd.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I don't have to win to enjoy the game, I can even enjoy being curbstomped. If I'm playing a game in a semi-competitive setting, it's because I enjoy the mechanics of the game for their own sake, win or lose. If I only enjoyed winning, then I'm enjoying the feeling of winning and not so much the game itself. If I win, it means I played my cards right and can be satisfied that my mechanics/strategies were solid. If I lose, I can go back over the game in my mind, figure out my mistakes, and learn from them in the future. If I'm demolished by someone of a higher skill level, I can look at what they did to win and hopefully learn from it. I've always found it almost inspiring to see people with a mastery of mechanics, I enjoy the game so seeing someone who has the mechanics and strategies down pat is fun to watch, even if I'm on the receiving end of it. Literally the only time I don't say GG is if I'm playing against a hacker and they win.

[Knaight]

If you meant a group in terms of gaming culture as a whole, then I'd be very careful about using group consensus as an acceptable norm, particularly due to the very vocal toxic element.

As regards jargon like good game, I'd argue that it's pretty much fine. Heck, even where the vocal toxic element is concerned, there's the matter of collected reasoning - it's pretty clear that a lot of what they thing is totally unreasonable to be offended by (e.g. overt slurs) are going to have a negative effect on huge numbers of people, particularly as lots of the vocal toxic element will outright call that the point of using them. It's also pretty clear what said vocal toxic element is likely to be offended by and thus it establishes probable response to that class of things. It's just that pissing off the vocal toxic element isn't exactly something to be concerned about. There are some groups where I'm downright happy to be on the enemies list, and that's certainly true in gaming.

[Crow]

I guess it depends on how you interpret "good game".

To me, it is not a handshake. It is a declaration, as in "that was a good game"; or "you guys played a good game".

If you want a handshake statement, or to show appreciation for your opponent sticking it out, why not say "thank you", or "Thanks for the game"?

It isn't about taking a loss personally, and I don't mind if someone throws out a "gg" after beating us in a normal match (I'll do it too, even if I lost); it is about carrying yourself with some decorum after obliterating the opposition. You can't expect everyone to know your particular meaning of "gg", and if someone else (as many that I have seen do) takes the meaning of "gg" as I do, you run the risk of sounding like a jerk in those instances in which no reasonable person would say it was a "good game".

[Lethologica]

Which leaves open the question of when exactly "no reasonable person could say it was a good game." If you won't accept a GG because the outcome wasn't close enough, that's more like saying you won't accept it unless no reasonable person could say it wasn't a good game.

I think the margin of victory is a limited measure of determining whether or not a game was 'good'--it can make the difference between a decent game and a great game, but rarely between a decent game and a terrible game. For the latter, I prefer to evaluate whether or not the game represented a sincere competition of skill.

But then, that ties back into the whole handshake interpretation. Ideally, I wouldn't refuse to offer the endgame handshake because I lost miserably or won easily--that's an offense to the competitive spirit in which we entered the game. But I'd be more likely to refuse it if my opponent was griefing me, or if he'd sandbagged his way into my bracket just so he could stomp people like me, or something along those lines, because in that case my opponent had no competitive spirit and offended my own.

[Crow]

Which leaves open the question of when exactly "no reasonable person could say it was a good game." If you won't accept a GG because the outcome wasn't close enough, that's more like saying you won't accept it unless no reasonable person could say it wasn't a good game.

I think the margin of victory is a limited measure of determining whether or not a game was 'good'--it can make the difference between a decent game and a great game, but rarely between a decent game and a terrible game. For the latter, I prefer to evaluate whether or not the game represented a sincere competition of skill.

But then, that ties back into the whole handshake interpretation. Ideally, I wouldn't refuse to offer the endgame handshake because I lost miserably or won easily--that's an offense to the competitive spirit in which we entered the game. But I'd be more likely to refuse it if my opponent was griefing me, or if he'd sandbagged his way into my bracket just so he could stomp people like me, or something along those lines, because in that case my opponent had no competitive spirit and offended my own.

Now you're just getting into semantics.

There is no set standard for what is and is not a curbstomp or what is "close enough". Like porn, you know it when you see it. In my earlier post, I gave an example of "double premade vs PuGs". This is two groups of people on teamspeak forming into groups and then syncing their pvp queue so as to take on a team composed entirely of solos. To me, this undermines the competitive spirit of the match. I can still try to play competitively, but that by itself doesn't make it a competitive match.

So please refer back to the part of my post you glossed over: Why not just say "Thanks for the game." or "ty" if you will?

[Lethologica]

Now you're just getting into semantics.
Your argument is about the meaning of GG and the consequences thereof. If you don't value semantics, then this whole line of discussion is pointless.


There is no set standard for what is and is not a curbstomp or what is "close enough". Like porn, you know it when you see it. In my earlier post, I gave an example of "double premade vs PuGs". This is two groups of people on teamspeak forming into groups and then syncing their pvp queue so as to take on a team composed entirely of solos. To me, this undermines the competitive spirit of the match. I can still try to play competitively, but that by itself doesn't make it a competitive match.
Your example validates my criterion at least as much as yours. One side was gaming the queue and not engaging in a sincere contest of skill. I assume the outcome was a curbstomp since you wouldn't be bringing it up otherwise. So curbstomp, insincere competition, and bad game are all present in this example.

What if you'd gotten beaten equally badly by solo queue players? Still a curbstomp, but the competition was sincere.

What if the match with the premades had been close? No longer a curbstomp, but the competition was still insincere.


So please refer back to the part of my post you glossed over: Why not just say "Thanks for the game." or "ty" if you will?
Convention. Force of habit. I don't need a significant justification, because typing GG is not significantly worse than typing ty4p. (For that matter, would you really be okay with the double premade curbstomp ending in a "ty4p"? As far as I can tell, that would be equally patronizing.)

Your turn: why not just treat "GG" the same way you'd treat "ty4p" when it is obviously being used in that way? As far as I can tell, your position comes down to "My opponent said GG as a handshake, I refuse to interpret it as a handshake, so I'm going to complain about it as if it weren't a handshake."

[Crow]

Your turn: why not just treat "GG" the same way you'd treat "ty4p" when it is obviously being used in that way? As far as I can tell, your position comes down to "My opponent said GG as a handshake, I refuse to interpret it as a handshake, so I'm going to complain about it as if it weren't a handshake."

I have no idea how the person typing it intends it to be interpreted. In communicating, it is the responsibility of the speaker to speak in a way that is clear and not open to misinterpretation.

If your intent is to thank your opponent for the match, say thank you.

[Psyren]

I have no idea how the person typing it intends it to be interpreted. In communicating, it is the responsibility of the speaker to speak in a way that is clear and not open to misinterpretation.

If your intent is to thank your opponent for the match, say thank you.

But if the concern is that "gg" can be said sarcastically, so can "ty4p." It's up to the listener to decide if he takes offense at such an ambiguous statement or not.

[Crow]

Nobody is talking about it being used sarcastically, and nobody is "offended". The question is do they mean "that was a good game", or "thanks <handshake>"? "Thanks-handshake" is fine after a curbstomp. "That was a good game" is at best ignorant, and makes you look a little bit like a tool.

There's nothing offensive in it. Obviously anything can be used sarcastically and that could be taken offensively, but that isn't the issue.

[DodgerH2O]

I have no idea how the person typing it intends it to be interpreted. In communicating, it is the responsibility of the speaker to speak in a way that is clear and not open to misinterpretation.

I just had to jump in and say that ANYTHING can be open to misinterpretation when communicating through text alone. Tone, facial expressions and posture are missing and those entirely change the meaning of just about any sentence in the english language. There's an exercise around where you say a 7 word sentence 7 times and emphasize a different word each time you use the sentence, each with a different meaning.

Obviously some things are less ambiguous than others, but the point remains.

[Lethologica]

I have no idea how the person typing it intends it to be interpreted. In communicating, it is the responsibility of the speaker to speak in a way that is clear and not open to misinterpretation.

If your intent is to thank your opponent for the match, say thank you.
Your ignorance is artificial. GG is possibly the most universal convention in online competition. If you engage in any significant amount of online competition, you'll have plenty of experience with this convention. You can acknowledge the convention, or you can be unhappy. If you prefer to be unhappy, that's on you.

[Crow]

Who's unhappy?

As an online convention, even Know Your Meme and Urban Dictionary differ; With KYM offering the handshake variant, and UD offering the "good game" (as in fair and enjoyable) variant. Not that those sources aren't really meaningful, but they show that the interpretation is not quite as universal as you make it out to be.

[Lethologica]

Who's unhappy?
Whatever emotions you feel towards people when they GG out of a one-sided game, they apparently aren't positive. The word "pissed" was used. This is, in fact, the first thing you let us know in this thread.


As an online convention, even Know Your Meme and Urban Dictionary differ; With KYM offering the handshake variant, and UD offering the "good game" (as in fair and enjoyable) variant. Not that those sources aren't really meaningful, but they show that the interpretation is not quite as universal as you make it out to be.
If you get pissed at either of those, that's on you. There really isn't any call for it (unless, y'know, they're f***ing with you, in which case this is part of a pattern of f***ery already). And notice that neither of those meanings have anything to do with whether the game's outcome was close.

[Crow]

Pissed off as in very briefly annoyed. If somebody else is a tool, that is their problem not mine. You are making this out like I am fuming over my keyboard screaming obscenities.

Let's try this: Instead of gg, what if they said "well played"? Furthermore, what if you knew for a fact that the match on your side was not "well played" at all (you were off your game, saddled with teammates you had to carry, etc)? It doesn't strike a little empty to you?

Our disconnect is that you view gg as a handshake, while I view it as a good game. Nothing we can do is going to change that. I guess I am just too old and set in my ways, living a lifetime of competitive sport in which telling someone "good game" meant "good game". As I said, if I feel the need to thank someone for the match I type it out, and if I felt it was indeed a good game (win or lose), I'll even throw out a gg.

As to the recurring "close game" thing you have latched onto, you'll notice the UD version mentions "fair and enjoyable". The example I gave, and which my whole original statement was based upon (queue-synced -gaming the matchmaking system- double premade w/ teamspeak vs PuGs); is not really fair, and for most of the people on the PuG not really enjoyable either.

[Rodin]

Our disconnect is that you view gg as a handshake, while I view it as a good game. Nothing we can do is going to change that. I guess I am just too old and set in my ways, living a lifetime of competitive sport in which telling someone "good game" meant "good game".



Huh. My memory of playing U-10 and U-12 soccer is that at the end of the match, no matter the scoreline, both teams would line up and walk past each other and shake hands/high five saying "good game...good game...good game...good game..." And that was whether it was a curbstomping or not.

It's probably a cultural thing, when you get right down to it.

[Gaelbert]

Let's try this: Instead of gg, what if they said "well played"? Furthermore, what if you knew for a fact that the match on your side was not "well played" at all (you were off your game, saddled with teammates you had to carry, etc)? It doesn't strike a little empty to you?

Do you say "good morning" to people when it hasn't actually been a good morning for you? Or if you haven't been having the greatest day and someone asks "How are you?" I think we can all accept that the vast majority of people will say "good" even though that might not necessarily be true. I don't see how this is any different.

[Lethologica]

Pissed off as in very briefly annoyed. If somebody else is a tool, that is their problem not mine. You are making this out like I am fuming over my keyboard screaming obscenities.
In every case I've either quoted you or used weaker language to describe your negative emotions. I hesitate to speculate as to how you got from there to thinking I'm portraying you as screaming obscenities, but whatever it is might be clouding your judgment.


Let's try this: Instead of gg, what if they said "well played"? Furthermore, what if you knew for a fact that the match on your side was not "well played" at all (you were off your game, saddled with teammates you had to carry, etc)? It doesn't strike a little empty to you?
WP is even more rarely used with malicious intent, so I have no reason to take it badly--if anything, I've frequently seen/used it as an acknowledgment that the enemy team played well despite a handicap (a leaver/AFK, for example). As for emptiness, there was a line of conversation a page or so back about learning to put up with small talk. I don't expect everyone to think carefully about whether it's really a good morning before greeting me, or whether they're really going to see me later before bidding me farewell. Which is not to say that they didn't, just that whether or not they did isn't important to how I respond.


As to the recurring "close game" thing you have latched onto, you'll notice the UD version mentions "fair and enjoyable". The example I gave, and which my whole original statement was based upon (queue-synced -gaming the matchmaking system- double premade w/ teamspeak vs PuGs); is not really fair, and for most of the people on the PuG not really enjoyable either.
But you would say "gj team" if you were on the double-premade side, apparently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19245468&postcount=58)? Or "ty4p"? Given the circumstances, are those not equally empty, even insincere? Why the hang-up over GG in particular? You're taking games where no comment could be appropriate because the game was poisoned from the beginning, and then picking out GG as the particular endgame comment you find annoying. Isn't that just because GG is by far the most common endgame comment regardless of what type of game it was?

[The_Jackal]

I'm just going to leave this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship. Try not to take someone talking to you after the game personally.