How would you modify your class?

[Dominuce2112]

Wizards released an article https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes about modifying classes. I already posted about one of my personal ideas for modding the barbarian (trying to figure out a way to give him a pet he can rage with) and I am thinking about a way to mod out wildshape out of druid. I know its a basis of the class but story/ mechanic wise I am just curious over the natural magic aspect of druids.
Anyways, how if your DM allowed this material, and it wasnt game breaking, how would you modify your class? What subclass would you create and whats the story behind it?

[Ralanr]

I'd add abilities to the berserker path that only activate while in frenzy. Like giving proficiency in mental saves or making intimidating presence affect people up to your Cha mod (the fact it affects one person for an action feels disappointing to me. Since barbs need their bonus action for rage and frenzy smash, increasing the number makes sense and it rewards you for having decent Cha).

Talked to my DM about it. She hasn't checked the book yet.

[Dominuce2112]

I'd add abilities to the berserker path that only activate while in frenzy. Like giving proficiency in mental saves or making intimidating presence affect people up to your Cha mod (the fact it affects one person for an action feels disappointing to me. Since barbs need their bonus action for rage and frenzy smash, increasing the number makes sense and it rewards you for having decent Cha).

Talked to my DM about it. She hasn't checked the book yet.

And the fact exhaustion doesnt make up for the extra damage, it would be nice to see another reason to pick that path

[Ralanr]

And the fact exhaustion doesnt make up for the extra damage, it would be nice to see another reason to pick that path

Honestly I'm not sure how to tackle exhaustion. My other teammates don't see it as a big issue, we usually only get one big fight in a session, though this time we're more careful on remember that they happen multiple times a day.

[Dominuce2112]

Honestly I'm not sure how to tackle exhaustion. My other teammates don't see it as a big issue, we usually only get one big fight in a session, though this time we're more careful on remember that they happen multiple times a day.

skeleton race from the dm guide. 282 i think

[Ralanr]

skeleton race from the dm guide. 282 i think

I thought only the eladrin and Assimar were in the DM guide?

Also I don't have that. My DM does.

[Dominuce2112]

I thought only the eladrin and Assimar were in the DM guide?

Also I don't have that. My DM does.

They have a lot of "npc" races that you can play. +2 dex -4int -4 cha vulnerable to bludgeoning, immunt to poison and exhaustion, darkvision 60ft, cant speak but understands languages it knew in life.

[Ralanr]

They have a lot of "npc" races that you can play. +2 dex -4int -4 cha vulnerable to bludgeoning, immunt to poison and exhaustion, darkvision 60ft, cant speak but understands languages it knew in life.

Wouldn't immunity to exhaustion defeat the purpose? Frenzy is powerful, I'm fine with their being a payment for it. If there wasn't then frenzy would just be passive.

[Kryx]

And the fact exhaustion doesnt make up for the extra damage
Except that it does.



Level
Non-Frenzy DPR
Frenzy DPR
% of the original value


5
22.8
34.2
150%


10
27.3
41
150%


15
42.5
52.3
123%


20
54.4
67
123%



Math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0).

This is also discussed here: Berserker Better for a Featless Build? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406548-Berserker-Better-for-a-Featless-Build)

[Dominuce2112]

Except that it does.



Level
Non-Frenzy DPR
Frenzy DPR
% of the original value


5
34.2
22.8
150%


10
41
27.3
150%


15
52.3
42.5
123%


20
67
54.4
123%



Math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0).

This is also discussed here: Berserker Better for a Featless Build? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406548-Berserker-Better-for-a-Featless-Build)

Arent you assuming 1 use of frenzy per day? what happens if there are more than one big encounters that call for damage, does the math account for that too?

And it doesnt really account for the additional effects of exhaustion if used more than once a day.

[Kryx]

Arent you assuming 1 use of frenzy per day? what happens if there are more than one big encounters that call for damage, does the math account for that too?
That DPR is only applicable during those (up to) 10 rounds.

Increasing your damage by 23-50% for a whole fight is massively significant.

The other encounters their damage is the normal listed, which is the highest of any martial class.

EDIT: had my fields reversed. Fixed now. Same math.

[Dominuce2112]

That DPR is only applicable during those (up to) 10 rounds.

Increasing your damage by 23-50% for a whole fight is massively significant.

The other encounters their damage is the normal listed, which is the highest of any martial class.

EDIT: had my fields reversed. Fixed now. Same math.

My campaign has a lot fights. Some small, some big. Some suppose to be small but end up being larger than expected due to terrain or pack tactics or something. Anyway, 10 rounds is relatively small percentage of a days enounters and you assume its a whole fight. As it may increase the dmg significantly for 10 rounds its hard to justify it as the only class ability (other than wild magic) that directly hinders your character if used more than once.

You say its the highest dmg of any class, but its really hard to justify that with such blank, universal encounters. I know there has to be a constant, but thats not how this game is played. Use math all you want but if youve ever seen a DM alter an encounter or notice a pattern of relative ease due to ability/class structure and adjust accordingly, its near impossible to just throw up numbers and cockily say "math"

barbs should have the most melee dmg, theyre barbarians. You dont rage to hold that shield a little tigher, you rage to swing that maul harder.

You said it yourself, "Same effect, but it's also nice to give Barbarian a boon on a short rest.". If it doesnt need changing, why would you give the exhaustion relief on a short rest. Or is it expected to ask a DM to shorten a days encounter so the Barb isnt forced to make the choice between GREATLY hindering himself or not boosting his damage, both can have repercussions. I find its more expected for a DM to change easy encounters because players like to feel challenged, but when you have to change the day because of one players restrictions are harming their chances at a fight by making him choose to pick a path he cant utilize fully or giving himself a damage boost for the potential of cutting his heels if there is another...it just seems like the ability needs a little adjusting.

[Kryx]

My campaign has a lot fights. Some small, some big. Some suppose to be small but end up being larger than expected due to terrain or pack tactics or something. Anyway, 10 rounds is relatively small percentage of a days enounters and you assume its a whole fight. As it may increase the dmg significantly for 10 rounds its hard to justify it as the only class ability (other than wild magic) that directly hinders your character if used more than once.
As I said in the other thread the value in comparison to Wolf is highly variable on many things: Number of encounters, number of enemies, number of melee allies, DM playstyle, etc.

I, personally, think a boost to the most significant fight of each day is amazing.



You say its the highest dmg of any class, but its really hard to justify that with such blank, universal encounters. I know there has to be a constant, but thats not how this game is played. Use math all you want but if youve ever seen a DM alter an encounter or notice a pattern of relative ease due to ability/class structure and adjust accordingly, its near impossible to just throw up numbers and cockily say "math"
The only way the math doesn't work is if a barbarian is unable to engage. In which case the other classes that he is being compared to can also not engage (Ranged characters do less). So..... where is the issue? You're saying you'll specifically nerf the Barbarian via encounters if it is too good, but then you complain that Frenzy isn't good enough? If you buffed Frenzy, then you'd be more inclined to nerf the Barbarian via purposeful encounters..


barbs should have the most melee dmg, theyre barbarians. You dont rage to hold that shield a little tigher, you rage to swing that maul harder.
They do. They do when they're Frenzying and they do when they aren't.


You said it yourself, "Same effect, but it's also nice to give Barbarian a boon on a short rest.". If it doesnt need changing, why would you give the exhaustion relief on a short rest.
As I said in that thread I wouldn't give it at all. I find the main issue with a Frenzy Barb is people' dislike of the mechanics. It's the same issue with the Beastmaster Ranger. Mathematically it is really really good DPR, but people do not like how it plays.

I find Frenzy plays out really well though.

[Dominuce2112]

The only way the math doesn't work is if a barbarian is unable to engage. In which case the other classes that he is being compared to can also not engage (Ranged characters do less). So..... where is the issue? You're saying you'll specifically nerf the Barbarian via encounters if it is too good, but then you complain that Frenzy isn't good enough? If you buffed Frenzy, then you'd be more inclined to nerf the Barbarian via purposeful encounters..


As I said in that thread I wouldn't give it at all. I find the main issue with a Frenzy Barb is people' dislike of the mechanics. It's the same issue with the Beastmaster Ranger. Mathematically it is really really good DPR, but people do not like how it plays.



When did I say id specifically nerf the barbarian? I didnt. I said DMs adjust encounters based on class/skills. Some groups are painted to deal with certain encounters over others. I never said anything about nerfing the barbarian specifically.

And i pulled that short rest boon thing from your comment. You said it would be nice to give barbs a boon on a short rest in regards to 2 levels of exhaustion relief on a full rest. Isnt that implying it would be acceptable to increase the times they can use frenzy safely thereby increasing the already "high damage"

And do you have the thread to the beast master dps. Ive read a few but a lot of them ask for a lot of DM discretion.

[Kryx]

And i pulled that short rest boon thing from your comment. You said it would be nice to give barbs a boon on a short rest in regards to 2 levels of exhaustion relief on a full rest. Isnt that implying it would be acceptable to increase the times they can use frenzy safely thereby increasing the already "high damage"

I offered it as an alternative to what was suggested in that thread.


Removing fatigue and leaving the rest is simply a power increase to the highest damage martial class. It makes fluff sense, but is highly unbalanced.

1/day on a short rest would be much more balanced (Wizard uses this wording for their spell recovery). 2 sustainable Berserks per day is much more balanced than 2-4.

But I also said I wouldn't do it

I wouldn't do it as the Zerker Barb in my party is already the highest damaging member by far. But I think that's the most balanced way that I can think of that makes it not as punishing as the Barb levels.

I really don't see the major problem. No one is arguing for more action surge uses or saying action surge sucks. And yet Frenzy is a better version of action surge that can be used multiple times per day if the player wants to deal with the consequences.
Mathematically and in my experience frenzy used on the final boss is better than 1 action surge a few times a day.





And do you have the thread to the beast master dps. Ive read a few but a lot of them ask for a lot of DM discretion.
I don't have it offhand. I remember the DPR from one of the threads that heavily discusses DPR.

[Lanced Crescent]

I'd have the sorcerer choose one of the two metamagics they get at level 3 and have that metamagic gain more effects as you level up. This represents the sorcerer becoming more creative with practice and experience. It would acquire new effects at level 9 and 17.

For example:

Quicken Spell at Class Lvl 1 - 8 same as PHB.
Lvl 9 - 16: Sorcerer spells of levels up to 1/3 your class level (rounded down) count as cantrips for the number of spells you can cast with a bonus action per round.
Lvl 17 - 20: You may cast quickened spells outside of your own turn, but not when you are surprised. Spells cast when it's not your turn use your reaction, count as being
cast during your next turn, and their effects are resolved before any currently ongoing action.

If you use your reaction to cast a quickened spell, you may not quicken another spell until your next turn ends.

I dunno if something like this merits a new subclass or if it should be part of the base chassis for the class, but it does help flesh out the notion that sorcerers are the absolute best at casting the few spells they know.

Additionally, sorcerers with leveling metamagic would only know the original 15 spells the class was originally given. How's that for a focused caster?

Edit: Reined in the power a bit so only one metamagic levels up.

[Dominuce2112]

I'd have metamagic gain more effects as you level up. This represents the sorcerer becoming more creative with practice and experience. Metamagic would acquire new effects at level 9 and 17.

For example:

Quicken Spell at Class Lvl 1 - 9: same as PHB.
Lvl 10 - 16: Sorcerer spells of levels up to 1/3 your class level (rounded down) count as cantrips for the number of spells you can cast with a bonus action per round.
Lvl 17 - 20: You may cast quickened spells outside of your own turn, but not when you are surprised. Spells cast when it's not your turn use your reaction, count as being
cast during your next turn, and their effects are resolved before any currently ongoing action.

I dunno if something like this merits a new subclass or if it should be part of the base chassis for the class, but it does help flesh out the notion that sorcerers are the absolute best at casting the few spells they know.

Additionally, sorcerers with leveling metamagic would only know the original 15 spells the class was originally given. How's that for a focused caster?

those seem really broken lol there are a lot of level 1-3 spells that would break the game if casted at any time every turn. I guess limiting the spell pool would work but still..risky business.

[Lanced Crescent]

those seem really broken lol there are a lot of level 1-3 spells that would break the game if casted at any time every turn. I guess limiting the spell pool would work but still..risky business.

Powerful for bursting, granted, perhaps just a tad too powerful, but available sorcery points puts a cap on its power, especially at lowish levels, since quicken costs 2 points. As for the 17th level ability, maybe make it so that you can't cast another quickened spell after you use your reaction to cast one?

Also, maybe when you get your first metamagics, you pick only one of those to level up.

And anyway, wizards get at will shield and misty step, or possibly other things, and at no cost to boot, so if there are level 1 spells that break the game when cast repeatedly, one class can already do that indefinitely.

Edit: Changed my last post to rein in the scope of the changes.

Full disclosure, I only have practical knowledge of the first few levels, and knowledge of high-level gameplay is just theorycrafting on my part and knowledge from reading these boards. :smallbiggrin: