the quick and really dirty fix of VoP

[With a box]

Just treat them as if (not actually have them) wearing items under total cost of X gp (table by level)
Yes, reeeeaaaallllly dirty fix :)
Would this functional anyway?

And its quick fix because, I thought about it less then 30 second. :smalltongue:

[Twurps]

I'm not really sure I get it. That fix sounds exactly like: Don't take VOP. In which case, I'd rather save me a feat and do just that.

[Extra Anchovies]

The point of VoP is that you give up magic items in exchange for innate benefits, so letting them wear and use magic items (even if the total value of the magic items is limited) is kinda counterproductive. Even having one (non-expendable) magic item makes you richer than most people, which means it isn't so much "vow of poverty" as it is "vow of not as much affluence as normal for someone of my accomplishments".

[heavyfuel]

I don't think it's "let them wear". Just "treat them as if wearing".

For example, if the fictional Table said that a lv 10 Character had 20000 GP. He could then fly as if he was wearing a pair of Winged Boots (16000 GP) and have a +2 enchancement bonus to Dex as if wearing a pair of Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4000 GP)

Would actually make VoP decent. Possibly even better than actual wealth, considering your benefits wouldn't be subjected to Dispel or Disjunction.

[Troacctid]

That doesn't sound quick at all. It sounds like a lot of work to pick out those items.

[With a box]

That doesn't sound quick at all. It sounds like a lot of work to pick out those items.

But it's something that everybody doing in normal table who didn't take VoP

[Shoat]

I don't think it's "let them wear". Just "treat them as if wearing".

For example, if the fictional Table said that a lv 10 Character had 20000 GP. He could then fly as if he was wearing a pair of Winged Boots (16000 GP) and have a +2 enchancement bonus to Dex as if wearing a pair of Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4000 GP)

Would actually make VoP decent. Possibly even better than actual wealth, considering your benefits wouldn't be subjected to Dispel or Disjunction.

But don't the guys around here already always assume that they have access to any magic item they want as long as they have a sum of gold equivalent to it's value? In which case everyone would be better off just exchanging real gold for real magic items and having two feats more.

Your idea only works in a world that makes sense (where not all magic items are available regardless of how much gold one has to exchange for them), in which case it immediately goes to the other extreme of being too strong.

[Twurps]

actually, as long as the 'wealth' you're giving them isn't eqaul to WBL, the idea has some merrit. You give up a big chunk of your wealth because, despite all the hate VOP gets, the perks are pretty good. But you get to have at least a little resources that you can 'spend' the way that suits your build/campaign, to alleviate some of the regiddity VOP normally forces on you.

Finding the appropriate amount of wealth though, is going to be as endless a debate as the whole 'is VOP worth it' is to begin with.

[bjoern]

My fix for VoP is to have them forever lose all benefits from it if they ever benefit directly or indirectly from anything worth more than nothing.
Treat it as an open invitation for the DM to "make the paladin fall" should the player ever decide to think about attempting to try to circumvent the drawbacks of the feat.

[Troacctid]

Wouldn't a quicker, easier fix be to just make it any bonus feat instead of only Exalted feats?

[ExLibrisMortis]

You could allow VoP people to expend XP to get certain spell effects as (Su) permanency'd spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also good is to have the bonus feats be any feat, rather than just Exalted. Especially since most of the Exalted feats are utter crap, and those that aren't tend to be class-based (Exalted Companion, Exalted Wild Shape, etc)


You could allow VoP people to expend XP to get certain spell effects as (Su) permanency'd spells.
Or even just grant them automatically-- one normally Persistable spell every two or three levels ought to be enough to cover most of the weaknesses.


My fix for VoP is to have them forever lose all benefits from it if they ever benefit directly or indirectly from anything worth more than nothing.
Treat it as an open invitation for the DM to "make the paladin fall" should the player ever decide to think about attempting to try to circumvent the drawbacks of the feat.
Um, what? How is that a fix?

[icefractal]

I think it'd work pretty well. I'd just give them normal WBL, multiplied by some factor. And they can change their virtual items when they level. It could even vary by campaign type. I'd also remove the "Sacred Vow" prerequisite - one feat spent is plenty.

You could even vary it by campaign type -
If it's a typical adventure path, where item loss / needing to conceal items happens rarely, then a 1x multiplier; the fact that you're spending a feat and can't easily swap items is enough.

If it's a campaign where items are sometimes hard to get, or get stolen, or having visible items comes up as a problem, then less, maybe 0.5x - 0.75x.

If it's a campaign where items are abundant and easily swapped, and people often have more than normal, then something greater than 1x.

[Segev]

It might be easier to just give them 1/4 WBL on top of the normal benefits, with the caveat that the WBL is in the form of no more than 3 items, and that it gets loaned to the character by his religious organization for use specifically on the mission. As such, he is expected to return it unless it's a charged item, and expected to return even charged items as much as possible. And the DM - through auspices of authority figures in the religion - determines the item(s) in question for each time period.

As an additional advantage, however, the DM should try to tailor the item(s) for the quest.

[heavyfuel]

But don't the guys around here already always assume that they have access to any magic item they want as long as they have a sum of gold equivalent to it's value? In which case everyone would be better off just exchanging real gold for real magic items and having two feats more.

Not always. As soon as lv 5 you have Dispel Magic and later you have the real nasties like AMF and Disjunction. Seriously, Disjunction can pretty much negate any non-spellcaster. These won't affect you, so even if the "gold" you have to "spend" is lower than WBL, it can still be more advantageous.

Also, your benefits can't be negated by mundane means such as Sunder, Disarm, or Sleight of Hand


Your idea only works in a world that makes sense (where not all magic items are available regardless of how much gold one has to exchange for them), in which case it immediately goes to the other extreme of being too strong.

Indeed, in a world that doesn't follow WBL and Magic Item acquisition guidelines, this version could very well be incredibly strong. The thing is, if your DM isn't following these suggestion, he HAS to make some adjustments. For example, raise the CR of monsters that can't be affected by non-magical weapons and so on. Adjusting how much "gold" you can "spend" with VoP would be one such change.

[danzibr]

Just treat them as if (not actually have them) wearing items under total cost of X gp (table by level)
Yes, reeeeaaaallllly dirty fix :)
Would this functional anyway?

And its quick fix because, I thought about it less then 30 second. :smalltongue:
Oh. Yeah, I've seen this fix. It wasn't phrased as such. It just essentially converts real WBL to gear-only pseudo-WBL.

[heavyfuel]

Question about this hypothetical rule: Would you be able to change the benifts gained from this pseudo-WBL? If you have a Ring of Protection +5 (50'000 GP) and want to exchange it for a Ring of Freedom of Movement (40'000 GP), you really need to spend only 15'000 GP, by selling your current ring for half the price. Should something similar be allowed with this new VoP?

[Telonius]

My quick and dirty fix: Move the Vow of Poverty feat to Book of Vile Darkness; swap all alignments to Evil, Holy bonuses to Profane, bonus Exalted feats to bonus Vile feats, etc.

It's an oath that strips a character of all their material wealth, that can be tripped up by the most ridiculous of technicalities, and even if they fulfill it they're worse off than they were before. It sounds just like something Asmodeus would come up with. :smallbiggrin:

[Xerlith]

Um, what? How is that a fix?

It's pretty simple - it works by preventing anyone from taking the feat, ever.

[Cruiser1]

Question about this hypothetical rule: Would you be able to change the benifts gained from this pseudo-WBL? If you have a Ring of Protection +5 (50'000 GP) and want to exchange it for a Ring of Freedom of Movement (40'000 GP), you really need to spend only 15'000 GP, by selling your current ring for half the price. Should something similar be allowed with this new VoP?
No, you can't change this. Your "pseudo-WBL" from this Vow of Poverty fix doesn't give you magic items, but rather class features (or rather "feat features" in this case) that give you magic benefits similar to if you were actually wearing magic items. Some feats like Spell Focus require you to choose a school of magic to gain a bonus in, and that school can't be changed afterward. Similarly, with the Vow of Poverty fix, your pseudo magic item choices are fixed once chosen and can't be changed.

However, in a game were retraining and rebuilding are allowed, you could certainly use them to change your build (i.e. your pseudo magic items). For example, since you can already retrain feats, if nothing else you can always just retrain or Chaos Shuffle Vow of Poverty away and back again in order to change your pseudo magic item choices.

[bjoern]

It's pretty simple - it works by preventing anyone from taking the feat, ever.

Not really. It deters optimizers sure. But someone who wants to play the cliche broke poor monk and still have some benefit from can have fun with it.

It prevents "Vow of Poverty "from becoming
" Vow of claim bankruptcy and tell the IRS that you only made 20k last year but still have a Ferrari and a 1m home"

[heavyfuel]

Not really. It deters optimizers sure. But someone who wants to play the cliche broke poor monk and still have some benefit from can have fun with it.

Anyone that can optimize VoP is going to give you bigger problems than VoP. Even with all the bonuses, VoP is still subpar. Also, VoP explicitly says you can have use simple weapons, plenty of which are worth more than nothing.

And after all that, it doesn't fix the issues with VoP.

[Xerlith]

Not really. It deters optimizers sure. But someone who wants to play the cliche broke poor monk and still have some benefit from can have fun with it.

I would really recommend you read up a bit on VoP before claiming it's overpowered. The general consensus is - the feat makes you actively worse if you're not a Druid.
Quick example: Monks can fly with a magic item, and flight is required to fight a lot of enemies. VoP denies them that. As well as th ability to bypass DR. As well as meaningful weapon enhancements on their fists. I can go on.