Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D IV: Oh, the Inhumanity!

[3SecondCultist]

Welcome to the fourth Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. thread! Come on in, go grab your favorite 0-8-4* and make yourself comfortable. There's lots of room for everyone, so save some space in the forum thread for new viewers and hardcore AoS fans alike. Please use spoiler tags liberally.

* This thread is not responsible for any accidental vaporizations, sudden crystallizations, or uncontrollable rages. Please consult S.H.I.E.L.D. records accordingly.

Past threads:
Agents of SHIELD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?305229-Agents-of-SHIELD)
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. II: It's A Magical Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335470-Agents-of-S-H-I-E-L-D-II-It-s-A-Magical-Thread)
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. III: Cut off One Thread, Two More Shall Take its Place (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?384621-Agents-of-S-H-I-E-L-D-III-Cut-off-one-thread-two-more-shall-take-its-place)

Heading into the Season 2 finale, we have the reforged paranormal security agency with plucky operatives and containment protocols in one corner, and the mysterious community of humans with alien DNA and powers in the other. Place your bets, people!

[Metahuman1]

Response form last thread.


Yes, that's exactly where there going with it. And I'll be honest, I expect it to go horribly wrong. Quesada got promoted and is gonna be in charge of all adaptations of marvel property's from comics and into other media, and he thinks the hot mess i described was perfect and resents people for not liking it and dumping marvel books over it. (Incidentally that was about half marvel comics readership.) And Joss Wheadon, the only guy I think really had enough pull to tell him point blank "That's nice, you keep thinking that, but it's not going in this movie. Because I said so, now, go cry in a corner an let the adults work." isn't there anymore.

So, yeah, if we make it through Civil War with out this having happened, it's gonna be nothing short of a miracle.

[dehro]

Still.. These films have been in the making for a decade and I expect there's a broadly outlined plot that has been agreed upon well before this Quesada fellow took over. I doubt anybody could have the kind of pull it takes to derail such major productions from the course they've been set on without a lot of management interference and creative differences coming to light and pooping all over the Internet

[Metahuman1]

And yet Quesada may be the single most talented person in the last century when it comes to screwing up a good thing for his own selfish desires.

[3SecondCultist]

And yet Quesada may be the single most talented person in the last century when it comes to screwing up a good thing for his own selfish desires.

This. So much, this. Quesada isn't just responsible for Civil War, but is responsible for an even worse storyline - perhaps one of the single most contested issues regarding Spider Man ever printed. What's worse, everything Quesada did to Spidey in One More Day were all things he explicitly promised wouldn't happen to the character after he events of the former storyline.

I do not trust Quesada with Marvel properties anymore. And I really hope they limit his involvement in the MCU creative process - gods forbid he becomes an executive producer or something.

[huttj509]

It's a different Civil War! We've had summaries and synopses!

It's not about list/no-list. Honestly, it's more similar to Coulson/Committee SHIELD divisions, the idea of should the Avengers operate with governmental oversight or not!

And hey, there's a division that I could see "I'm a soldier" Captain America and "don't talk to me about Things Man Was Not Meant to Know" Stark on opposite sides of.

"You built Ultron!"
"Hey, I fixed it, right Vis? Anyway, it's not like I decided to nuke Manhattan. Great decision from the council there, let's see, who cleaned up that mess? Chain of command blah blah blah. I'm not a soldier Steve, never was, never will be."
"You need to be accountable to somebody."
"How about the stockholders. Maybe I should go publicly traded, Avengers IPO might be hot right now, though PR might have a migraine. Did I mention I got a PR department? They're doing a great job with the rebuilding in Africa, Iron Man brand dust masks. I wanted some in green but they thought that might hit a bit close to home."


Man, Stark is a lot more fun to make up dialogue for than Rogers. And I LIKE Captain America.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Man, Stark is a lot more fun to make up dialogue for than Rogers. And I LIKE Captain America.

Of course he is. Stark understands that if he didn't laugh at life, he'd had attempted suicide by now. Humour is his coping mechanism. Rogers doesn't seem to have a need for humour, so he is a very serious character that barely works even as the straight man - that's why he needs either a Bucky, or a howling commando, or a Black Widow to put some life into his films. (Thor has similar issues, except he is at least a fun fish-out-of-water alien, and of course has Loki).

Thankfully, Both Rogers and Thor bring other characteristics to the table that make them enjoyable - but humour ain't it.

Grey Wolf

[LaZodiac]

It doesn't matter what Quesada did or didn't do because his job is the same as Stan Lee's, title wise. He's doing nothing.

[3SecondCultist]

It's a different Civil War! We've had summaries and synopses!

It's not about list/no-list. Honestly, it's more similar to Coulson/Committee SHIELD divisions, the idea of should the Avengers operate with governmental oversight or not!

I know. I've been filling in some of the TVTropes page for Civil War myself with synopses. It's more a bad gut reflex to see Quesada's name anywhere near the MCU that I've grown to love.


It doesn't matter what Quesada did or didn't do because his job is the same as Stan Lee's, title wise. He's doing nothing.

I'm well aware of Quesada's current position at Marvel, again it was more of a bad memory of reading Civil War and basically going straight to One More Day. I almost completely gave up on Marvel after that.

But that's all movie stuff! I'm super excited for the two hour finale on Tuesday! I actually have a couple of predictions that will hopefully come true (and I share your wishful thinking that Ward is turned into fine red mist, Zodiac).

[Olinser]

It's a different Civil War! We've had summaries and synopses!

It's not about list/no-list. Honestly, it's more similar to Coulson/Committee SHIELD divisions, the idea of should the Avengers operate with governmental oversight or not!

And hey, there's a division that I could see "I'm a soldier" Captain America and "don't talk to me about Things Man Was Not Meant to Know" Stark on opposite sides of.

"You built Ultron!"
"Hey, I fixed it, right Vis? Anyway, it's not like I decided to nuke Manhattan. Great decision from the council there, let's see, who cleaned up that mess? Chain of command blah blah blah. I'm not a soldier Steve, never was, never will be."
"You need to be accountable to somebody."
"How about the stockholders. Maybe I should go publicly traded, Avengers IPO might be hot right now, though PR might have a migraine. Did I mention I got a PR department? They're doing a great job with the rebuilding in Africa, Iron Man brand dust masks. I wanted some in green but they thought that might hit a bit close to home."


Man, Stark is a lot more fun to make up dialogue for than Rogers. And I LIKE Captain America.

Loki as Captain America was one of the best scenes ever.

As long as they stick with 'oversight over the Avengers', I'm perfectly fine with it. The problem is that in the comic books they went to, "Forced conscription of anybody with mildly useful powers and everybody else gets thrown in prison with no possibility of release".

[Helanna]

I am both excited and a little scared for the finale! I'm assuming it's going to end on some horrible cliffhanger - the activation of a weapon or a tense standoff maybe - or an official declaration of war, which could have interesting consequences for the rest of the MCU.

On another note I had an AoS-related dream last night, in which Ward regained the trust of the team and they were all hanging out as friends/teammates again. Until Simmons shot him in the head. So that might speak to what I'm hoping for in the finale.

(Actually I love to hate Ward, I hope he sticks around because I really like him as a villain. I *still* can't believe how thoroughly I was fooled in the beginning of season 1.)

[Reddish Mage]

I am both excited and a little scared for the finale! I'm assuming it's going to end on some horrible cliffhanger - the activation of a weapon or a tense standoff maybe - or an official declaration of war, which could have interesting consequences for the rest of the MCU.

On another note I had an AoS-related dream last night, in which Ward regained the trust of the team and they were all hanging out as friends/teammates again. Until Simmons shot him in the head. So that might speak to what I'm hoping for in the finale.

(Actually I love to hate Ward, I hope he sticks around because I really like him as a villain. I *still* can't believe how thoroughly I was fooled in the beginning of season 1.)

Speaking of which, when did the actors know that Ward was going to go villain. When I looked back at some early scenes there seems to be no hint of his future, no nod that this guy is, deep down, a diabolical lapdog incapable of thinking for himself.

[Olinser]

I am both excited and a little scared for the finale! I'm assuming it's going to end on some horrible cliffhanger - the activation of a weapon or a tense standoff maybe - or an official declaration of war, which could have interesting consequences for the rest of the MCU.

On another note I had an AoS-related dream last night, in which Ward regained the trust of the team and they were all hanging out as friends/teammates again. Until Simmons shot him in the head. So that might speak to what I'm hoping for in the finale.

(Actually I love to hate Ward, I hope he sticks around because I really like him as a villain. I *still* can't believe how thoroughly I was fooled in the beginning of season 1.)

Right now I'm pretty much operating on the assumption that the water-rock... thingy on the Iliad is going to feature heavily in the next two episodes and presumed cliffhanger.

My guess is the next episode we'll find out what it really is and does when Jiaying tells Gordon it's too dangerous to leave in SHIELD hands and they assault the Iliad to get it back.

[3SecondCultist]

Speaking of which, when did the actors know that Ward was going to go villain. When I looked back at some early scenes there seems to be no hint of his future, no nod that this guy is, deep down, a diabolical lapdog incapable of thinking for himself.

I don't know about the rest of the cast, but Brett Dalton found out while filming "Yes Man" (Season 1 Ep. 15), two episodes before "Turn, Turn, Turn". I can't imagine the execs at Marvel telling the rest of the cast before they told him. So that means for the first 15 episodes of the show, Dalton played Ward as a straight laced guy as genuinely as he could, in order to make the eventual twist that much more out of left field.

The interview transcript is here (http://marvel.com/news/tv/22302/exclusive_brett_dalton_on_agent_wards_new_role_in_ marvels_agents_of_shield.), if you're interested in reading it. There's also a good one for Bill Paxton (who knew he was Hydra when he got cast).

[Carl]

You don't get to decide that for everybody.

What???

I'm not deciding anything.

I'm telling you your position is factually and provably wrong. Your whole argument is that you can claim the system is unacceptably vulnerable. But claiming that about a system as well protected as a national security system or various legal systems simply doesn't make sense unless your willing to go out and say we shouldn't recod any information of that sensitivity because it might be compromised and hurt someone. And that's just not a position that stands up to basic reason, common sense, logic, or sanity checks.

Unless you have an actual counter argument all the sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't make you any less factually wrong.





Frankly, I think forcibly putting responsible adults on the level of those incapable of caring for themselves is demeaning.

The vast majority of powered people are again self evidently, (often as much due to psychology and training and lack of resources more than actual power given how many abilities can at least theoretically be used for defence), incapable of protecting themselves against organisation with paramilitary capabilities they are in a specific sense incapable of looking after themselves in regards to a specific aspect of the life of a powered person.

And incapable of looking after themselves in some way is the specific criteria for being a vulnerable individual on these lists.

Incidentally however minor my condition i'm classed as disabled myself. So i'm looking at this from the inside out here.


@Dehro: I think you have me ass backwards here. Your whole point is why i'm arguing the Index needs to exist. It's provably the case that not only are powered people vulnerable to exploitation and abuse by vastly more powerful people who actually exist and have a reason to engage in such.



Doublecheck your correction. SHIELD was intended as an inherently defensive organization. "someone really wanted the acronym to spell shield." The Index was originally intended to make life easier for shield, by triaging powers into possible threats and not.

Go re-watch season one again. repairs and the girl in the flower dress specifically. Though several other episodes provide countless little bits and pieces.

Coulson flat out states the welcome wagon is there to evaluate potential threats in repairs yes. But per various comments in that episode and per their reaction to Scorch's disappearance a few episodes earlier. Potential threats doesn't just mean the threat represented by the powered individual, it represents the threats to the individual as well. And just like we see with 084's we see SHIELD taking responsibility for them beyond the simple threat level. hey're not working alongside the normal authorities. they're completely substituting for them.

And that's what i'm trying to pick up and ram home for you all here. Your treating, (as per the comment i corrected), as if SHIELD's sole mandate is to protect the world from powered people. It isn't their interest in powered people is two way. their mandate isn't just defence against powered people but managing them in general.

[Olinser]

What???

I'm not deciding anything.

I'm telling you your position is factually and provably wrong. Your whole argument is that you can claim the system is unacceptably vulnerable. But claiming that about a system as well protected as a national security system or various legal systems simply doesn't make sense unless your willing to go out and say we shouldn't recod any information of that sensitivity because it might be compromised and hurt someone. And that's just not a position that stands up to basic reason, common sense, logic, or sanity checks.

Unless you have an actual counter argument all the sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't make you any less factually wrong.






The vast majority of powered people are again self evidently, (often as much due to psychology and training and lack of resources more than actual power given how many abilities can at least theoretically be used for defence), incapable of protecting themselves against organisation with paramilitary capabilities they are in a specific sense incapable of looking after themselves in regards to a specific aspect of the life of a powered person.

And incapable of looking after themselves in some way is the specific criteria for being a vulnerable individual on these lists.

Incidentally however minor my condition i'm classed as disabled myself. So i'm looking at this from the inside out here.


@Dehro: I think you have me ass backwards here. Your whole point is why i'm arguing the Index needs to exist. It's provably the case that not only are powered people vulnerable to exploitation and abuse by vastly more powerful people who actually exist and have a reason to engage in such.




Go re-watch season one again. repairs and the girl in the flower dress specifically. Though several other episodes provide countless little bits and pieces.

Coulson flat out states the welcome wagon is there to evaluate potential threats in repairs yes. But per various comments in that episode and per their reaction to Scorch's disappearance a few episodes earlier. Potential threats doesn't just mean the threat represented by the powered individual, it represents the threats to the individual as well. And just like we see with 084's we see SHIELD taking responsibility for them beyond the simple threat level. hey're not working alongside the normal authorities. they're completely substituting for them.

And that's what i'm trying to pick up and ram home for you all here. Your treating, (as per the comment i corrected), as if SHIELD's sole mandate is to protect the world from powered people. It isn't their interest in powered people is two way. their mandate isn't just defence against powered people but managing them in general.

You've proven nothing to anybody, YOUR OPINION of what is acceptable risk is not automatically the only definition acceptable, and quite frankly your condescending attitude is hurting your position. You have no facts to back up anything. All you have is your opinion.

The Inhumans don't need or want to 'be managed'. They have been around for thousands of years without anybody knowing they even existed. They have absolutely no interest in interfering, or even interacting at all, with the outside world. The only Inhuman who has ever been seen posing any threat to normal people was explicitly in violation of Inhuman law when she stole the crystals, and Jiaying and Gordon tracked her down pretty quickly. If May hadn't killed both of them the clear implication was that they were going to haul her back to Afterlife and either imprison or execute her.

As far as they are concerned, there is absolutely zero benefit to being on SHIELD's Index, and a whole lot of risk from an organization with a proven track record of allowing people on it to be exploited by various nefarious organizations. They do a perfectly fine job of policing their own, they don't need or want SHIELD's interference. I could see them agreeing to a compromise where IF one of their own became a threat to humans, they would inform SHIELD of their powers and how to stop them, but only IF they were a threat. Putting every single person on the Index is simply never going to happen - and quite frankly Gonzales was acting like he KNEW it was never going to happen and was just looking for an excuse to start throwing them in prison. Coulson would probably have been reasonable and talked it out with Jiaying. Gonzales delivered an ultimatum he knew damn well was never going to be accepted.

And your strawman about 'OMG I GUESS WE SHOULDN'T STORE ANYTHING, EVER', is just laughable. Various types of sensitive information have more security associated with them, precisely because even a low risk of their compromise warrants it. And yes, in the case of some particularly sensitive pieces of information, they are not, and never will, be stored on a server that can be potentially hacked.

Do we store nuclear launch codes on servers that can be hacked? Of course not. Because any risk of compromise, no matter how small, is completely and totally unacceptable.

Despite what Hollywood would have you believe in countless spy movies, we likewise do not have a single consolidated list of all undercover agents. Because again, any amount of risk is too much for things of that sensitivity. So things are compartmentalized into many small pieces, or stored in places that have no outside internet access.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And yet Quesada may be the single most talented person in the last century when it comes to screwing up a good thing for his own selfish desires.

Yeah. I quit reading comics over a decade ago, and I'm quite familiar with his Lewis-level failure magnet ways.

[dehro]

The Inhumans don't need or want to 'be managed'. They have been around for thousands of years without anybody knowing they even existed. They have absolutely no interest in interfering, or even interacting at all, with the outside world. The only Inhuman who has ever been seen posing any threat to normal people was explicitly in violation of Inhuman law when she stole the crystals, and Jiaying and Gordon tracked her down pretty quickly. If May hadn't killed both of them the clear implication was that they were going to haul her back to Afterlife and either imprison or execute her.

As far as they are concerned, there is absolutely zero benefit to being on SHIELD's Index.

It's not just the Inhumans needing or not needing to be managed. It's their existence in a world that is becoming more and more aware of them that needs to be managed, and not just on their end. They have survived for millennia without interference, true, but that simply is not the case anymore. There are bad people out there who are more than a match for their powers and who have a keen interest in getting their claws on them. Interaction is, at this point, inevitable. As for whether they need regulating from the outside, that is a simple matter of realpolitik. Yes, they can say we're good guys and will handle any bad apple internally... But why should they be trusted by people who don't quite know them and don't have reason to believe them to be able to either police themselves (remember Bahrain) or defend themselves (remember that Gordon being tracked and Afterlife being exposed is only the first step towards a ton of crafty baddies landing on your dodoorstep). For all intent and purposes, Afterlife could be equated to a rogue-ish nation armed with nuclear devices. A nation that has no allegiance, has signed no international treaty, made no promise to abide by any law, local or international. For that matter, where is Afterlife and whose tax officials are being cheated out of their legal revenue? Their existence is a fact that produces diplomatic and bureaucratic consequences and the people who are not them are going to want to know more about them to make sure they're indeed not a menace. Taking their word for it just doesn't work. Afterlife needs to come to terms with the outside world now that the bubble has burst and HYDRA has proven itself to be a real menace they don't have the means to defend against.
In such a picture, making a deal with the only organisation that is already devoted to keeping them secret and protecting them from such people as HYDRA, seems the lesser of the evils out there. Ultimately it comes down to accountability... Who are accountable if something goes wrong like in Bahrain? Who is going to pay for the civilians Cal had his minions kill in pursuing Coulson? As for the index.. That could've been discussed, made a subject of bargains and compromise. A joined way of policing things could have been suggested. All of these options were killed stone dead by the Zabos.

[Olinser]

It's not just the Inhumans needing or not needing to be managed. It's their existence in a world that is becoming more and more aware of them that needs to be managed, and not just on their end. They have survived for millennia without interference, true, but that simply is not the case anymore. There are bad people out there who are more than a match for their powers and who have a keen interest in getting their claws on them. Interaction is, at this point, inevitable. As for whether they need regulating from the outside, that is a simple matter of realpolitik. Yes, they can say we're good guys and will handle any bad apple internally... But why should they be trusted by people who don't quite know them and don't have reason to believe them to be able to either police themselves (remember Bahrain) or defend themselves (remember that Gordon being tracked and Afterlife being exposed is only the first step towards a ton of crafty baddies landing on your dodoorstep). For all intent and purposes, Afterlife could be equated to a rogue-ish nation armed with nuclear devices. A nation that has no allegiance, has signed no international treaty, made no promise to abide by any law, local or international. For that matter, where is Afterlife and whose tax officials are being cheated out of their legal revenue? Their existence is a fact that produces diplomatic and bureaucratic consequences and the people who are not them are going to want to know more about them to make sure they're indeed not a menace. Taking their word for it just doesn't work. Afterlife needs to come to terms with the outside world now that the bubble has burst and HYDRA has proven itself to be a real menace they don't have the means to defend against.
In such a picture, making a deal with the only organisation that is already devoted to keeping them secret and protecting them from such people as HYDRA, seems the lesser of the evils out there. Ultimately it comes down to accountability... Who are accountable if something goes wrong like in Bahrain? Who is going to pay for the civilians Cal had his minions kill in pursuing Coulson? As for the index.. That could've been discussed, made a subject of bargains and compromise. A joined way of policing things could have been suggested. All of these options were killed stone dead by the Zabos.

Cal is explicitly NOT an Inhuman, and they accept no responsibility for his actions.

And as I said, I think Coulson would have been reasonable and come to some sort of arrangement with the Inhumans. Straight up going on the Index was never going to be agreed to, but they might have come to some sort of an agreement with regards to people explicitly violating the law. Gonzales delivered an ultimatum that he KNEW they weren't going to accept so he had a reason to lock them all up. Outright killing Gonzales threw me off, I expected her to laugh in his face, throw him out, and demand Coulson come back to negotiate in good faith, but I think the discovery of the water-rock thing is what triggered her actions, it clearly has some major part to play.

[Metahuman1]

3SecondCultist: He's also responsible for OMD's sequel, Brand New Day, for Sin's Past (It basically did to Gwen Stacy post mortum what OMD did to Mary Jane.), and I'm pretty sure he can be thanked for M-day and all the Scarlet Witch related BS as well as for not stopping Avengers Arena and Undercover form happening, or for not stopping X-men vs. Avengers which was being written before he'd been promoted. Oh, and for making sure in the first Issue of Captain America with Sam Wilson as Cap he made it a point to call everyone who doesn't follow Joe Quesada's Politics in lock step an angry out of touch old racist. And One More Day were he declared that everyone who watches movies/tv/reads books/reads comics/plays video games that arn't 100% none fiction is 100% a looser by virtue of that behavior, period, through the mouth of an alt universe Peter Parker who didn't get the spider bite.

The man has no buisness having ANY job at Marvel anymore, let alone being in charge of all adaptations of marvel property's from comics and into other media. Which is exactly what his current job is and exactly what it says on the tin.

Lazodiac: See the above.

huttj509: Is Tony Stark Still fighting Captain America? Is one gonna be in favor of the Government's BS and the other against it? If the answer to both questions is yes, it's already entirely too close to the source material for it's own good, or for the good of the MCU post Civil War.

Also, again, Quesada has a seat at the table right now. There is NO way it's gonna stop at just registration. More so since he just got Spiderman and Norman Osborn back as toys to play with on the big screen!

Carl: Hail Hydra comrade, Hail Hydra!

Seriously, your arguments have already been shredded, but here's some other stuff your evidently failing to take into account. 1: The government (Shield in this case.) Indexes them. What precisely stops Loki or Lorilai or Purple Man or any other given telepath or shape-shifter or master illusionist form tricking or just taking the info, or taking control of/impersonating someone in authority over that info, and then using this convenient Info in a threat to them/there enemy's to force ably conscript all the supers into working for them directly? Or just wiping them and/or everyone they care about off the map?

That's right, Not a freaking thing, that's what!

Were as if you don't have anything other then "They exist" for the majority of supers, then now there's a contingency for that sort of thing. Namely, yeah, they could in theory still get it, but it would be a WAY more involved process for them which gives you more time to react and them more time to screw up and blow cover.

And that's not even getting into the fact that, again, every time Marvel has gone down this road, Registering has been a BAD thing. A VERY VERY BAD thing. There's no reason at all to think this is different. Particularly not with Joss Wheadon no longer calling the shots and Joe Quesada getting a seat at the table.



Olinser: Dead on and I agree with you on all points.

Rogar Demonblud: I stopped reading Marvel at the time, started reading DC. And as bad as DC's gotten, there STILL not Civil War and One More Day and the other listed events bad.

dehro: Except that they don't have any reason what so ever to trust an organization that until a couple of days ago were hunting them, and can't even keep to pre agreed upon terms in so far as who goes in to talk.

Besides, form there stand point, if Hydra comes form them, they can take them. Also I'm still betting on them reveling that Black Bolt and a ton of other powered Inhumans are up on the Moon on a base with Kree Tech and that the season ends with them releasing the inhuman Wave over earth. Cause, you know, 5% of the population suddenly having powers and the overwhelming majority of THEM not having had no say in weather or not that happened would actually look like a good fix to his way of thinking.

And he's not far off. Numbers + power let's them crush Hydra and if needed, Shield, and then as for registering, it throws a lot more lack of firmness on the moral high ground of those calling for it. Along with a lot less ability to actually make it work if they tried.

[comicshorse]

Apart from the security measures any vaguely competent security organization puts in places. They haven't been shown because quite frankly that would be incredibly boring television Interestingly enough the S.H.I.E.L.D. by committee helps by that as group decisions mean one person being turned doesn't mean control over anything
Whereas the Inhumans with a single leader are infinetley more susceptible to this kind of manipulation.

[QUOTE] Hail Hydra comrade, Hail Hydra!
Shhshhh ! You're not meant to say that in public anymore. Didn't you get Strucker's memo

[Olinser]

Apart from the security measures any vaguely competent security organization puts in places. They haven't been shown because quite frankly that would be incredibly boring television Interestingly enough the S.H.I.E.L.D. by committee helps by that as group decisions mean one person being turned doesn't mean control over anything
Whereas the Inhumans with a single leader are infinetley more susceptible to this kind of manipulation.


Shhshhh ! You're not meant to say that in public anymore. Didn't you get Strucker's memo

DO the Inhumans have a single leader? 'The Elders' has been referenced a few times by Gordon and Lincoln, (I seem to recall Gordon telling Cal he had to go consult with the elders, before Jiaying showed up). I was kind of under the impression that the Inhumans as a group were led by a council of Elders that made major decisions, and that Jiaying was just a senior member/spokesman for the council who handled smaller matters by herself. I kind of got the impression Gordon may have been a junior member of the council as well.

I was kind of anticipating that a Council was going to show up at some point - probably Black Bolt and Medusa, at a minimum.

[3SecondCultist]

Apart from the security measures any vaguely competent security organization puts in places. They haven't been shown because quite frankly that would be incredibly boring television. Interestingly enough the S.H.I.E.L.D. by committee helps by that as group decisions mean one person being turned doesn't mean control over anything.

Whereas the Inhumans with a single leader are infinitely more susceptible to this kind of manipulation.

Very much this. I don't necessarily agree with all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s practices, but I do like the idea of them forming a committee of leaders instead of having one director. Fury's - and later Coulson's - style of keeping all of his closest advisors in the dark has the unfortunate tendency of backfiring on him. In theory, the 'council' structure works. It's made obvious in both the films and the shows that the World Security Council's 'oversight' was laughable at best, and dangerous at worst, as it allowed Pierce and Hydra to more easily worm their way in. With a new council, formed up of loyal and experienced agents who all fought against internal corruption, things should be better. Of course, we've already seen why it doesn't always work. That's why I like this show, in a nutshell: it doesn't give any easy answers to these questions.

And I get the sense that the 'Elders' of Afterlife won't matter much when Jiaying starts her war.


Shhshhh ! You're not meant to say that in public anymore. Didn't you get Strucker's memo

I thought Strucker's memo was 'Peace'? :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

Hail Hydra comrade, Hail Hydra!
Posting mostly so I have a marker for the new thread, but nitpick: Hydra is a Nazi organization, calling Hydra members "comrade" is going to get you shot.

[3SecondCultist]

Posting mostly so I have a marker for the new thread, but nitpick: Hydra is a Nazi organization, calling Hydra members "comrade" is going to get you shot.

More nitpicking! While correct about not using 'comrade', I'd say Hydra is long past being a Nazi organization. We see them turn on the Third Reich in the first Cap movie, with Red Skull listing Berlin as one of his targets in his super-jet. While certainly starting off as a Nazi offshoot, they've evolved way beyond that ideology by the modern day.

I wonder if we're going to see more Hydra in Season 3.

[LaZodiac]

More nitpicking! While correct about not using 'comrade', I'd say Hydra is long past being a Nazi organization. We see them turn on the Third Reich in the first Cap movie, with Red Skull listing Berlin as one of his targets in his super-jet. While certainly starting off as a Nazi offshoot, they've evolved way beyond that ideology by the modern day.

I wonder if we're going to see more Hydra in Season 3.

On the one hand, Struker's dead and as far as we know he's the last one.

But then we also know Crossbones or whatever, the Hydra agent from Cap 2, is going to be in Cap 3. So there are likely still remnants hiding in the shadows. Of course there's always the chance that since The Kraken was just shot and not torn to pieces, he'll revive much like Jiayang did when she was put back together.

And of course you know what they say about Hydra and their heads. A theory my Dad had (jokingly) is that Ward will revive it.

[comicshorse]

On the one hand, Struker's dead and as far as we know he's the last one.

But then we also know Crossbones or whatever, the Hydra agent from Cap 2, is going to be in Cap 3. So there are likely still remnants hiding in the shadows. Of course there's always the chance that since The Kraken was just shot and not torn to pieces, he'll revive much like Jiayang did when she was put back together.

And of course you know what they say about Hydra and their heads. A theory my Dad had (jokingly) is that Ward will revive it.

Strucker's scientific advisor (Doctor List ?) is still around

Yes it is Doctor List

[Carl]

And your strawman about 'OMG I GUESS WE SHOULDN'T STORE ANYTHING, EVER', is just laughable. Various types of sensitive information have more security associated with them, precisely because even a low risk of their compromise warrants it. And yes, in the case of some particularly sensitive pieces of information, they are not, and never will, be stored on a server that can be potentially hacked.

Do we store nuclear launch codes on servers that can be hacked? Of course not. Because any risk of compromise, no matter how small, is completely and totally unacceptable.

Despite what Hollywood would have you believe in countless spy movies, we likewise do not have a single consolidated list of all undercover agents. Because again, any amount of risk is too much for things of that sensitivity. So things are compartmentalized into many small pieces, or stored in places that have no outside internet access.

Now this is an actual counter argument.

Go around restating your position constantly without addressing my point and i'm going to be derisive. It's just going "i'm right because i say i'm right regardless of arguments to the contrary". You go around doing that and i will dismiss it if, big, big, big if i've laid out and argument that i don't feel can be disagreed upon purely on principles. Which is what the whole point of my comparison IS. It's an impossible to disagree with, (within the limits of logic, reason, sanity, and common sense), position on purely principles grounds. If you want to prove me wrong you've got to actually attack the comparison in some fashion. And that's why i've been derisive upto press. The counterarguments have been "i say i'm right i don't have to address your argument".


Now as to your actual argument.

None of those are examples of data that is dangerous in some fashion to a specific section of the general public. That's why i poked at terrorist watch lists or witness protection data. Both of which to the best of my knowledge, ( i won't claim perfection here, no one outside the specific services is for very good reasons), are totally hackable. For that matter despite being far less well secured, (though probably less heavily targeted, or at least with less of a reason to target them), data on vulnerable disabled individuals and sex offenders would also apply. And the latter, has been leaked in the UK for example, (i can link you to some stories i think would have to dig through another forums thread for the specific info came up there), so it's probably possible to compromise. Though like i said it isn't quite as secure, so it's a less perfect example. And i'm sure with some work other equivalent types of data can be thought of, (those are just the ones that pop into my head without research), that would be just as secure and just as potentially hackable.



The Inhumans don't need or want to 'be managed'. They have been around for thousands of years without anybody knowing they even existed. They have absolutely no interest in interfering, or even interacting at all, with the outside world. The only Inhuman who has ever been seen posing any threat to normal people was explicitly in violation of Inhuman law when she stole the crystals, and Jiaying and Gordon tracked her down pretty quickly. If May hadn't killed both of them the clear implication was that they were going to haul her back to Afterlife and either imprison or execute her.

I allready pointed out how the Inhumans are effectively running their own version of the index and that Jaiyang would have a valid point if she'd used that. I never attacked the idea that the Inhumans might deserve and exception, (subject to some monitoring for favoritism). I counterattacked the attack on the idea of the index as a whole.



1: The government (Shield in this case.) Indexes them. What precisely stops Loki or Lorilai or Purple Man or any other given telepath or shape-shifter or master illusionist form tricking or just taking the info, or taking control of/impersonating someone in authority over that info, and then using this convenient Info in a threat to them/there enemy's to force ably conscript all the supers into working for them directly? Or just wiping them and/or everyone they care about off the map?

That's right, Not a freaking thing, that's what!

Were as if you don't have anything other then "They exist" for the majority of supers, then now there's a contingency for that sort of thing. Namely, yeah, they could in theory still get it, but it would be a WAY more involved process for them which gives you more time to react and them more time to screw up and blow cover.

Again a decent counter argument. And the first one i feel actually holds some merit even if i feels it's still pretty hard disagreeable with within the constraints of logic and common sense, (though i agree there's just enough wiggle room to not make it 100%). I still disagree with it. But finally an actual argument that holds water for me :). I like to be challenged like this. but i don;t hold much truck with sticking fingers in ears.

The problem with it is this:

Yes various individuals can bypass any security. But those are the specific individuals that A) the index is supposed to stop from becoming threats in the first place. B) the threat they represent has to be balanced against the threat represented byy the alternative. If you don't have an index then that means every superpowered individual is suddenly left to deal with their powers on their own and if any other form of threat, (which is going to be vastly more common), tris to take advantage of them you''ll never know because when they disappear they'll just be another missing normal. Until the bad guys operation gets busted or they start using what they've acquired to do major badness no one will know. Which is the bigger threat?

I tend to come down on the side that such individuals are rare enough on the whole and the mandate to deal with these kinds of people as well tends to offset the dangers.

The other major point i'd make is that at that point all classified data anywhere upto and including nuclear launch codes becomes vulnerable, how far can you really go with not giving them things to go after before it becomes completely silly and counterproductive? Someone with that ability because unstoppable sort of meeting someone they can't control. Illusionists, Shape Changers and Mind Benders are realistically physical goods if they pre-plan enough, which raises the question of if anyone not able to stop them should even worry about them. Nothing you do is going to stop them without crippling yourself to an unacceptable degree vs everyone else.

Like i said i agree there's just enough wiggle room in there for a valid argument, but i hold that it's a very very, very weak one.

[Olinser]

Very much this. I don't necessarily agree with all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s practices, but I do like the idea of them forming a committee of leaders instead of having one director. Fury's - and later Coulson's - style of keeping all of his closest advisors in the dark has the unfortunate tendency of backfiring on him. In theory, the 'council' structure works. It's made obvious in both the films and the shows that the World Security Council's 'oversight' was laughable at best, and dangerous at worst, as it allowed Pierce and Hydra to more easily worm their way in. With a new council, formed up of loyal and experienced agents who all fought against internal corruption, things should be better. Of course, we've already seen why it doesn't always work. That's why I like this show, in a nutshell: it doesn't give any easy answers to these questions.

And I get the sense that the 'Elders' of Afterlife won't matter much when Jiaying starts her war.



I thought Strucker's memo was 'Peace'? :smallwink:

Kind of how I see this playing out in my head is that Jiaying is going rogue with her war. The next 2 episodes are going to see non-stop conflict with SHIELD over the water-rock thing in the cargo hold, and that at the end either Jiaying is going to be dead or Gordon is going to remove her.

Then at the end of the season for the cliffhanger is the appearance of the Elders, and possibly some kind of countdown with regards to the water-rock.

[LaZodiac]

Strucker's scientific advisor (Doctor List ?) is still around

Yes it is Doctor List

They got List while saving Lincoln and Deathlock.

[Flickerdart]

And of course you know what they say about Hydra and their heads. A theory my Dad had (jokingly) is that Ward will revive it.
Ward doesn't strike me as someone that can lead. He's got 33 wrapped around his finger, but he's essentially doing everything he's doing right now for her benefit. Of all the things Ward has done on his own, just one (sorting out his family issues) was doing something for himself, and none have been to further an agenda.

[3SecondCultist]

They got List while saving Lincoln and Deathlock.

Actually no, they didn't. The say in "Dirty Half Dozen" that List escaped on one of the Hydra planes (which is also I assume how Ward got out of there by himself). He's actually talking to Strucker in the Age of Ultron opening, in Sokovia. I assume the Avengers either took him prisoner, he died in the assault, or he escaped. So same thing really, he would just be under Hill's jurisdiction or something instead of Coulson's.

Also yeah, I had the same theory re: Ward. But I also like the idea of him becoming the Taskmaster, a kind of wild card anti-hero / anti-villain type character. It fits his arc really well, as someone whose loyalties are always in question.

[Joran]

DO the Inhumans have a single leader? 'The Elders' has been referenced a few times by Gordon and Lincoln, (I seem to recall Gordon telling Cal he had to go consult with the elders, before Jiaying showed up). I was kind of under the impression that the Inhumans as a group were led by a council of Elders that made major decisions, and that Jiaying was just a senior member/spokesman for the council who handled smaller matters by herself. I kind of got the impression Gordon may have been a junior member of the council as well.


I wonder if Jiaying is intentionally trying to sacrifice her little sect for the greater good. When Lincoln gets captured, he knows he's supposed to be left behind. If Jiaying's group gets wiped out, maybe SHIELD stops looking for other Inhumans.

[LaZodiac]

Also yeah, I had the same theory re: Ward. But I also like the idea of him becoming the Taskmaster, a kind of wild card anti-hero / anti-villain type character. It fits his arc really well, as someone whose loyalties are always in question.

The only reason I don't like this is because Taskmaster is supposed to be a cool guy. And **** Ward, he's not worthy to be Taskmaster.

[Orrmundur]

I wonder if Jiaying is intentionally trying to sacrifice her little sect for the greater good. When Lincoln gets captured, he knows he's supposed to be left behind. If Jiaying's group gets wiped out, maybe SHIELD stops looking for other Inhumans.

This. I sincerely doubt that Afterlife is the only Inhuman sanctuary in existence. I have to imagine that, at the very least, there's also some sort of permanent residence for Inhumans who can't pass for mundies. Something like The Farm in Fables. Attilan is also fairly likely a factor in some way or form unless the Inhumans on the show are some sort of splinter group, which is a possibility as they refer to Gordon as their first (and only?) teleporter. So either they don't know about Lockjaw or, heaven forbid, the most adorable Inhuman of all (and leader of the Pet Avengers!) doesn't exist in the MCU.

[Olinser]

This. I sincerely doubt that Afterlife is the only Inhuman sanctuary in existence. I have to imagine that, at the very least, there's also some sort of permanent residence for Inhumans who can't pass for mundies. Something like The Farm in Fables. Attilan is also fairly likely a factor in some way or form unless the Inhumans on the show are some sort of splinter group, which is a possibility as they refer to Gordon as their first (and only?) teleporter. So either they don't know about Lockjaw or, heaven forbid, the most adorable Inhuman of all (and leader of the Pet Avengers!) doesn't exist in the MCU.

Gordon appears to be a stand-in for Lockjaw, both in his powers - they both have teleportation, they can sense when Inhumans are in need, and at least some degree of super strength - and in their jobs - serving as guardian/escort of the Inhumans.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Just posting to mark the thread, nothing to see here, move along.

[3SecondCultist]

The only reason I don't like this is because Taskmaster is supposed to be a cool guy. And **** Ward, he's not worthy to be Taskmaster.

Yeah... I mean, I actually like Ward as a character. For all the horrible things he's done, I somehow still manage to root for the guy for some reason. It doesn't make sense, but I tend to cheer on the villains more anyway. Who knows what will happen to him, though? Or what he'll do next? I've loved him this season because he's so unpredictable, and the writers are smart to use him sparingly as they have done. Maybe he'll just be his own thing, I'd be fine with that too.


This. I sincerely doubt that Afterlife is the only Inhuman sanctuary in existence. I have to imagine that, at the very least, there's also some sort of permanent residence for Inhumans who can't pass for mundies. Something like The Farm in Fables. Attilan is also fairly likely a factor in some way or form unless the Inhumans on the show are some sort of splinter group, which is a possibility as they refer to Gordon as their first (and only?) teleporter. So either they don't know about Lockjaw or, heaven forbid, the most adorable Inhuman of all (and leader of the Pet Avengers!) doesn't exist in the MCU.

The problem with this is that the show seems to imply that there aren't any other enclaves. First of all, Lincoln himself says that after he had adjusted to his powers, he was re-integrated back into society after that. As a 'transitioner', he comes back to Afterlife every once in a while to help new Inhumans, which means he lives most of his life elsewhere. I think I remember him saying he was from somewhere in the States. And secondly, when Raina asks to leave Afterlife, Gordon tells her he can take her to a bunch of deserted places, but that he can't take her back to society at large yet. If there were a second place for Inhumans, one where physical transformations were embraced, wouldn't he have suggested that already?

[comicshorse]

The problem with this is that the show seems to imply that there aren't any other enclaves. First of all, Lincoln himself says that after he had adjusted to his powers, he was re-integrated back into society after that. As a 'transitioner', he comes back to Afterlife every once in a while to help new Inhumans, which means he lives most of his life elsewhere. I think I remember him saying he was from somewhere in the States. And secondly, when Raina asks to leave Afterlife, Gordon tells her he can take her to a bunch of deserted places, but that he can't take her back to society at large yet. If there were a second place for Inhumans, one where physical transformations were embraced, wouldn't he have suggested that already?

If the Inhuman's are operating in a cell structure for security then the other Inhuman places will have been deliberately kept from everybody ( except possibly Jiaying). That way if Afterlife is discovered they can't give away the other groups, no matter what

[LaZodiac]

Yeah... I mean, I actually like Ward as a character. For all the horrible things he's done, I somehow still manage to root for the guy for some reason. It doesn't make sense, but I tend to cheer on the villains more anyway. Who knows what will happen to him, though? Or what he'll do next? I've loved him this season because he's so unpredictable, and the writers are smart to use him sparingly as they have done. Maybe he'll just be his own thing, I'd be fine with that too.

Well what I mean is that I hate him in the NICEST WAY POSSIBLE. He is such a good character and acted so great. The only thing stopping him from being the Taskmaster in my eyes is that...honestly I think the Taskmaster should be more of a good guy then Ward is. That said, in a vacuum, if they told us that Ward would become The Taskmaster...I could certainly see it. But I think it'll be better for him to just stay Grant Ward.

[3SecondCultist]

If the Inhuman's are operating in a cell structure for security then the other Inhuman places will have been deliberately kept from everybody ( except possibly Jiaying). That way if Afterlife is discovered they can't give away the other groups, no matter what

Mayyyyybe. We've definitely gotten the message that Afterlife itself was supposed to be tip-top-secret, as only Gordon (and presumably Jiaying) knows where it is at all. I assume some of the Elders might, but again we haven't met them yet, so who knows? My money is on other Inhumans being out there for certain, and I won't knock the possibility of a Farm or somesuch, but I'm guessing none of them are as important / well established as Afterlife is.


Well what I mean is that I hate him in the NICEST WAY POSSIBLE. He is such a good character and acted so great. The only thing stopping him from being the Taskmaster in my eyes is that...honestly I think the Taskmaster should be more of a good guy then Ward is. That said, in a vacuum, if they told us that Ward would become The Taskmaster...I could certainly see it. But I think it'll be better for him to just stay Grant Ward.

Ultimately, I think I do agree with you. But comic adaptations of characters are just so cool, and I love to watch these characters' transformations. Skye being Daisy Johnson was a really cool way to take the character, and it ties her arc to the show's in a way that has improved this season incredibly. I'm not super sold on Chloe Bennet's acting, but that's a whole other thing. Brett Dalton knocks his scenes out of the park, which is one of the main reasons I still like Ward.

[LaZodiac]

Ultimately, I think I do agree with you. But comic adaptations of characters are just so cool, and I love to watch these characters' transformations. Skye being Daisy Johnson was a really cool way to take the character, and it ties her arc to the show's in a way that has improved this season incredibly. I'm not super sold on Chloe Bennet's acting, but that's a whole other thing. Brett Dalton knocks his scenes out of the park, which is one of the main reasons I still like Ward.

Grant Ward is my King Joffry. I'm worried about watching the guy in other roles because he's succeeded at becoming such a nasty, horrible individual it'll be hard to see him as anything else. I feel like, if Ward doesn't become a comic character like Skye is Daisy, Ward will be someone that shows up in the comics. Coulson got in, so having "Ward, the Free Agent" around as a villain might be interesting.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. Maybe he'll end up joining AIM and become that one AIM Agent Deadpool always hung out with.

[Metahuman1]

Again a decent counter argument. And the first one i feel actually holds some merit even if i feels it's still pretty hard disagreeable with within the constraints of logic and common sense, (though i agree there's just enough wiggle room to not make it 100%). I still disagree with it. But finally an actual argument that holds water for me :). I like to be challenged like this. but i don;t hold much truck with sticking fingers in ears.

The problem with it is this:

Yes various individuals can bypass any security. But those are the specific individuals that A) the index is supposed to stop from becoming threats in the first place. B) the threat they represent has to be balanced against the threat represented byy the alternative. If you don't have an index then that means every superpowered individual is suddenly left to deal with their powers on their own and if any other form of threat, (which is going to be vastly more common), tris to take advantage of them you''ll never know because when they disappear they'll just be another missing normal. Until the bad guys operation gets busted or they start using what they've acquired to do major badness no one will know. Which is the bigger threat?

I tend to come down on the side that such individuals are rare enough on the whole and the mandate to deal with these kinds of people as well tends to offset the dangers.

The other major point i'd make is that at that point all classified data anywhere upto and including nuclear launch codes becomes vulnerable, how far can you really go with not giving them things to go after before it becomes completely silly and counterproductive? Someone with that ability because unstoppable sort of meeting someone they can't control. Illusionists, Shape Changers and Mind Benders are realistically physical goods if they pre-plan enough, which raises the question of if anyone not able to stop them should even worry about them. Nothing you do is going to stop them without crippling yourself to an unacceptable degree vs everyone else.

Like i said i agree there's just enough wiggle room in there for a valid argument, but i hold that it's a very very, very weak one.

The Kree And Asguard are a thing and any given member of either empire can do it trivially if powered and sympathetic party's don't get in there way. And there are trillions of them. For each empire. If not more.

Anyone with the mind or space Gem can also do it quite with out effort.

Any beginner mystic can do it quite easily as well. As can the overwhelming majority of extra-dimensional beings. I'm quite certain Dr. Strange is gonna show us both.

And NONE of those have the market cornered on it by any stretch of the imagination.

It's so stupidly common to anyone who isn't willfully blind too it or an idiot that it's laughable.




As for Launch Codes, this is still worse. 1: It's actually interesting to the aforementioned beings. Nukes are just kinda laughed at once you get into the broader mystic and cosmic segments at marvel. There a joke if that. 2: It's more subtle, NEVER underestimate the power of being able to be subtle if desired. 3: Less collateral damage. It means you can actually stand a better chance of the thing you want surviving the fight to get it.



So, no, no it is not so rare as to not warrant being too much of an exception to worry about. Nor is in the same Cat as Nukes by any stretch of the imagination. Try again.


Also, everyone someone goes Pro Reg/Pro Index, from now on I'm just gonna say Hail Hydra Comrade at them. So, Hail Hydra Comrade.






As for Ward as task master, Zodiac, consider this. It would give Netflix Daredevil, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, Power Man, And current Black Widow, Hawkeye and Captain America a good context and excuse to beat the living crap out of Ward. Tell me with a straight face you wouldn't love that.



Edit: Oh, and other Inhumans, again, I really think that they have a moon base and a much higher powered people population then we've seen, and it's gonna BOOM before there movie happens cause there gonna launch the Inhumans Wave. If for no other reason then I think they REALLY want to get Kamala Khan in on that movie so they can go "See! Were inclusive and giving attention to a fan favorite character! SEE!"

[LaZodiac]

As for Ward as task master, Zodiac, consider this. It would give Netflix Daredevil, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, Power Man, And current Black Widow, Hawkeye and Captain America a good context and excuse to beat the living crap out of Ward. Tell me with a straight face you wouldn't love that.

The only reason I don't want this (and trust me, with how brutally violent Daredevil is, I'd love to see it) is because I feel at this point, Simmons, Fitz, or Skye have to be the one to get Ward. Simmons because it is SUPER ****ing personal (especially since she's already blamming herself for the next bad thing Ward will do, which as it turns out is actually going to be a really big deal) Fitz because, like Simmons, his entire life was destroyed because of him, and I just want to see him go ballistic on the guy. Skye because like the others it's personal (though perhaps less so) but unlike the others, who would end up using tech on him in some way, Skye's would be the most satisfying because she'd vibrate him into a red puddle.

[Flickerdart]

Coulson got in

Coulson wasn't in the comics before the MCU?

[LaZodiac]

Coulson wasn't in the comics before the MCU?

Correct. He was added to the comics because the MCU made him so popular.

[3SecondCultist]

Coulson wasn't in the comics before the MCU?

Nope, he was not. He was added in around Iron Man 2 / Thor, when his current characterization began to evolve.

Also, regarding Ward's ultimate fate... I don't think we're going to see him die this season. There's just so much else going on, I know we're headed into a two hour finale, but I can't see them killing him off yet.

Edit: ninja'd!

[LaZodiac]

Nope, he was not. He was added in around Iron Man 2 / Thor, when his current characterization began to evolve.

Also, regarding Ward's ultimate fate... I don't think we're going to see him die this season. There's just so much else going on, I know we're headed into a two hour finale, but I can't see them killing him off yet.

Yeah no Ward's not dying this season, but he'll probably get wounded in some way like they did before they took the break for Carter. Presumably when they're saving Bobbie.

[Calemyr]

Coulson was in the first Iron Man movie, actually, back when nobody would give him enough time to get his department's full name out before brushing him off.

[Kitten Champion]

Ward is insufficiently skilled to suddenly become Taskmaster, whose photographic reflexes and memory are a trait of being something of polymath. Taskmaster would make a great MCU villain, I'm kind of surprised they haven't tapped him earlier as a character they can do with choreography alone.

I have no idea what they're going to do with Ward, I assumed originally he would fill the power vacuum in HYDRA and reorganize the society based on his own deluded priorities. Now, however, I'm wondering if he'll be involved with the Bobbi/Lance spin-off they're setting up here.

[lord_khaine]

I guess we'll have to wait and see. Maybe he'll end up joining AIM and become that one AIM Agent Deadpool always hung out with.

Well.. it could certainly give Deadpool a chance to deliver some truely hilarious wall breaking comments regarding his new pal then.


Also, everyone someone goes Pro Reg/Pro Index, from now on I'm just gonna say Hail Hydra Comrade at them. So, Hail Hydra Comrade.

Wow.. thats just about the most narrow minded comment i have seen this entire thread, and certainly leaves it clear that discussing this subject with you any further would be a complete waste of time.

[3SecondCultist]

Coulson was in the first Iron Man movie, actually, back when nobody would give him enough time to get his department's full name out before brushing him off.

I know that, I was referring to his characterization being different as the first phase of the MCU took off. Watch his scenes in Iron Man: he's still the same person, but there isn't the snark or quiet competency that Coulson wields in his later appearances. He's portrayed as a bit more nervous, a bit less sure of himself. This probably in part due to the changes they made to the canon after that movie: they talk about founding S.H.I.E.L.D. recently, whereas the rest of the MCU is quite clear that it was formed out of the SSR after the Second World War.


Yeah no Ward's not dying this season, but he'll probably get wounded in some way like they did before they took the break for Carter. Presumably when they're saving Bobbie.

I could see that happening, for certain. It might be a bit repetitive, though. Think about the Season One finale as well... do you really think the writers will pull a 'he gets really hurt, but is ultimately okay' for a third time? That would be really lucky for Ward.


Also, everyone someone goes Pro Reg/Pro Index, from now on I'm just gonna say Hail Hydra Comrade at them. So, Hail Hydra Comrade.

I'm not sure if you're joking, but I actually have a bit of a problem with this statement. For reference, I'm not actually Pro-Reg or Anti-Reg. I'd fall somewhere in the middle, saying there are merits and pitfalls to both positions, and it's hard (but not impossible) to hold onto both simultaneously. Anachronism aside, what you said speaks to a kind of exclusion of thought based on your conceptions of the shortcomings of Regulation.

Let's play Devil's Advocate for a moment. I'll pretend to be somebody on the Reg side of things, and I have some idealistic notions about Intervention and Enforcement (two of the initials in S.H.I.E.L.D. itself) being used to protect people at large without having to compromise moral methods. That's in a perfect world, and understandably such a place does not exist. It wouldn't make for good entertainment if it did. But nonetheless, as a Pro-Reg I still want to believe that protection can happen in a way that doesn't just exploit people, or lead to loopholes in the system wherein my protection ultimately harms people later. And I should note that this is Coulson's position in the show. The protagonist of the TV series we're discussing holds this belief, in a S.H.I.E.L.D. organization.

The position that Stark takes in comic!Civil War, and the steps he takes to ensure that fly right past anti-hero and into villain category. I can only assume that the movie Civil War is going to do something similar (although probably not to the extent of hiring Green Goblin to hunt down heroes). The only difference between Stark and Coulson is that the latter has a team of people backing him up all the way, who are willing to make sure that he doesn't falter or lose track of the ultimate aim of protection. In other words, proper oversight. That's what a Pro-Reg person would argue in this case.

Hydra and other organizations like it go beyond regulation, and into extermination, into exploitation. But there is merit to the idea of wanting to monitor potential supernatural threats and step in with (ideally) a nonviolent solution could still be considered moral high ground. Violence needs to be a last resort, otherwise you can't build up any trust between powered subjects and the organizations that monitor them, and then the whole thing could fall apart. And that's not to say that Anti-Reg thinkers are advocating anarchy, or anything like that. However, by telling people before they even open their mouths that their beliefs are comparable to a secret evil agency, and then referencing another completely different historically based totalitarian regime isn't fair.

[Kitten Champion]

Wow.. thats just about the most narrow minded comment i have seen this entire thread, and certainly leaves it clear that discussing this subject with you any further would be a complete waste of time.

Obviously if you don't agree with Metahuman, you're a Nazi, that's just the way things work.

[Metahuman1]

Wow.. thats just about the most narrow minded comment i have seen this entire thread, and certainly leaves it clear that discussing this subject with you any further would be a complete waste of time.

You'll forgive me if in light of glaring evidence against your position being a good idea AND in light of the fact that you'd previously point blank said you were right and everyone else was wrong, stop, period, irrefutable fact, if I'm less then impressed.

[LaZodiac]

Ward is insufficiently skilled to suddenly become Taskmaster, whose photographic reflexes and memory are a trait of being something of polymath. Taskmaster would make a great MCU villain, I'm kind of surprised they haven't tapped him earlier as a character they can do with choreography alone.

I have no idea what they're going to do with Ward, I assumed originally he would fill the power vacuum in HYDRA and reorganize the society based on his own deluded priorities. Now, however, I'm wondering if he'll be involved with the Bobbi/Lance spin-off they're setting up here.

Yeah...Ward's probably not high tier enough to be Taskmaster, but it's conceivable if they went for a more grounded version of him.

I've heard the Mockingbird Hunter spinoff was getting downplayed/stopped. Like, it was an idea they had, but opted not to.

[Joran]

I have no idea what they're going to do with Ward, I assumed originally he would fill the power vacuum in HYDRA and reorganize the society based on his own deluded priorities. Now, however, I'm wondering if he'll be involved with the Bobbi/Lance spin-off they're setting up here.

About that spin-off... It's currently dead.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/08/agents-shield-spinoff-not-moving-forward

However, Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter both got renewed for next season.

[3SecondCultist]

I've heard the Mockingbird Hunter spinoff was getting downplayed/stopped. Like, it was an idea they had, but opted not to.

Yeah, I think they realized there just wasn't enough material there to make something worth watching. Joran's already got the article up there for you to read.


And Metahuman: see above for my two cents on the matter. Generally, saying that anyone trying to argue a particular position is wrong despite there clearly being multiple iterations of that mindset isn't giving everyone a chance to speak up. I didn't see anyone else do that, but before now I've been kind of avoiding this discussion, so I likely missed it.

[Metahuman1]

3SecondCultist: Ok, let's assume, just for a moment, that I assume everyone in universe who's presently pro-reg is nothing but noble lawful good intentions. (Spoilers, there a minority at absolute best, but just for the sake of argument.).

I have already pointed out one whole bigger then the entire earth solar system to that plan. Anyone with even a bit of telepathy, illusion or shapeshifting capability is gonna snap that system over there knee, and the number of people with it vastly outnumber the total human population (Men, women, children, all nationality's, religions, ethnicity's, orientations, powered and none powered form all sources.) presently alive. And all it takes is one of them to decide they don't give a crap. And boom, you get every bad thing that's come up that can come of registration being mandatory instantly. Hell, Agent 33 and Ward, who have 2 bits of super tech sum total, only one of which the other side doesn't also make standard issue, could do it any time the urge hit them and this has been demonstrated more then once. They just aren't interested right this moment is all. Then there's The Asgard. The Kree. An Random earth origin super with a grudge like Scarlet Witch. Anyone who get's there paws on the mind or space gem and can use the damn things at a really basic level, or any form mystic or extra-dimensional being (Both of which are about to have a BIG movie to introduce us too them in universe. Hello Dr. Strange!). And all of them could do this with less effort then it would take you to go to starbucks and order something with coffee in it somewhere in the recipe.


And again, that's assuming there is not and will NEVER be a person in favor of mandatory registration within the system who would even consider for an instant abusing it.





And they have plainly shown us that is not the case. Colsen and Bobbie are LITERALLY the only people in position to access that index who don't actively and maliciously WANT to cut straight to the concentration camp stuff just on principle. And Bobbies gone, and the others have all proven, repeatedly, they'll go behind Colsen's back at the drop of a hat to anything and everything he says no too. (And yes sadly at this point I'm quite certain that includes May.) Or hell, if there careful about who they agree to promote, all they have to do is just be patient. Colsen's gonna die of old age sooner or later, then they can just have someone who shares there view made director and have a unanimous vote to do it.


It is untenable to say that Registration even has the potential to lead anywhere then worse case scenario, and to make a B-line for it too boot.

And that's before you even factor in that we know EXACTLY what Starks gonna pull from the comic books, and we know the deviations will very probably be minimal if they exist at all because once again, Joe Quesada DOES have pull now and thinks that storyline is better then freaking Watchmen or Kingdom Come. And hell, since they now have access to spiderman and all that comes with, they could actually just skip stark being involved and cut straight to Norman Osborn pushing for registration and getting a significant position that gives him access to the files for no reason other then to abuse them for personal gain. And you still get to the same place.


And now that we've established that, we have to take the next step. To acknowledge that it's gonna happen this way if they go for registration. That it is not avoidable. So when your not rooting Ant-reg and instead rooting for the pro-reg side, your rooting for the concentration camp routine. Ergo the tag line. To point this out to people who seem to be over looking it for what ever reason with out having to do an entire shpeel every post or two.

Also I love how lord_khaine didn't feel the need to quote the rest of the reasoning, he just jumped to "Yup. I'm right and all but your too close minded to keep bothering with." instead of actually trying to answer the reasoning and explain to me how all of the above doesn't matter in the least and they should all still be forced to register at gun point knowing all this and taking it into account.





And as an aside, I made references to Hydra, an in universe fictional entity, specifically to avoid real world politics. How did you get real world politics?

[Kitten Champion]

Yeah...Ward's probably not high tier enough to be Taskmaster, but it's conceivable if they went for a more grounded version of him.

I've heard the Mockingbird Hunter spinoff was getting downplayed/stopped. Like, it was an idea they had, but opted not to.


About that spin-off... It's currently dead.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/08/agents-shield-spinoff-not-moving-forward

However, Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter both got renewed for next season.

I'm genuinely glad. I would've been willing to give it a shot if they seemed to be going somewhere with it, but AoS is already strained in its budget and ratings that a spin-off at this point would have been stretching things too far.

Frankly, while I like Nick Blood's Lance Hunter character, he's good where he is within the ensemble AoS cast. As to Adrianne Palicki's Mockingbird, she's really not lead material. I understand casting her as a someone who's physically imposing in an action show as a heroic character and she isn't too bad of an actor all told, but she just doesn't have the chops to bring me in each week in the way Hayley Atwell does. I actually think she'd have worked better as a villain - perhaps Madam Hydra - after seeing her play a conniving assassin in John Wick.

[Metahuman1]

It could have worked if it was the avengers academy idea. 2 people with LOT'S of field experience and I'm getting a vibe some teaching experience branching off to train a much younger team who are only getting training cause there supers. (Also, again, this would give MCU the chance to keep Tom Hiddlestan and Loki around after Thor: Ragnorok via the Kid Loki story line and then transitioning after a season or two of that into Loki: Agent of Asgard type deal. Which I'd imagine they'd want to do for similar reasons to getting Kamala Khan into play.)

[3SecondCultist]

~Snip~

Wow, that's... a really cynical position to take. I have little to rebut with, other than this: just because threats to any given system exist, doesn't mean you can't see the best impulses in everyone and still want to protect people at the same time. Coulson does. Skye does. The Marvel Universe as a whole (especially in the MCU) has proven that it's full of threats, but also lots people worth protecting. It's not entirely unthinkable to believe that by monitoring potential threats and only stepping in when absolutely necessary, that you're going to do more good than you are harm.


So when your not rooting Anti-Reg and instead rooting for the Pro-Reg side, your rooting for the concentration camp routine.

And as an aside, I made references to Hydra, an in universe fictional entity, specifically to avoid real world politics. How did you get real world politics?

... Do you not see the contradiction here? You said 'comrades' as well, which was either an intentional reference to Stalin Russia, or otherwise just really unfortunate wording on your part.

[Metahuman1]

Actually if you listen to some of the more minor Hydra dialog they will occasionally call other members by that term once in awhile. It was a referance to that.



If I am misremembering that detail, sorry.



As for that being a bleak view, it's what's right there front and center. I'm just not trying to close my eyes and hope it goes away. That said, yes, there are people worth protecting. The problem is that this is completely counter productive too doing that, cause once you get your worse case scenario, it's only a matter of when and how bad for mass non powers casualty's. And how bad can literally be at the stakes as there set "End/Eternal Subjugation of the entire human race.". This is not a thing that people who want to protect people would want to have happen obviously, but it is far more likely to happen in light of the previously laid out information.

[3SecondCultist]

Actually if you listen to some of the more minor Hydra dialog they will occasionally call other members by that term once in awhile. It was a referance to that.

If I am misremembering that detail, sorry.

As for that being a bleak view, it's what's right there front and center. I'm just not trying to close my eyes and hope it goes away. That said, yes, there are people worth protecting. The problem is that this is completely counter productive too doing that, cause once you get your worse case scenario, it's only a matter of when and how bad for mass non powers casualty's. And how bad can literally be at the stakes as there set "End/Eternal Subjugation of the entire human race.". This is not a thing that people who want to protect people would want to have happen obviously, but it is far more likely to happen in light of the previously laid out information.

They do say 'Hail Hydra' (a catch phrase with linguistic ties to Nazism), but they never say comrade. Sorry, my nitpicking impulse couldn't resist that you had conflated the two and used that against you. Using 'concentration camps' rhetoric, however, is overtly political and proves my point outright.

And I would contest the idea that the Marvel Universe is completely bleak. It's a superhero universe, most if not all of the movies end with the hero victorious in some way and the villains getting killed, imprisoned or otherwise defeated. I'm not going to stray into a false dichotomy and say that Anti-Reg thinking is against teams in general, but the idea that such a team needs to be accountable to the public still holds weight in the face of supernatural threats. Anything can be compromised, but it takes a strong person to try and bring order and peace for everyone despite it not being a perfect world.

That's the trap so many Pro-Reg thinkers fall into: they believe that if everything is regulated and contained, everything will be better, safer. This is only true to an extent, and you're right that nobody can plan for everything. That's somethkng true outside of comic books, outside of insane powers on a cosmic scale. Nobody can regulate everything, but that doesn't mean they should give up trying to protect the elementary school from the pyrokinetic across the street.

[Metahuman1]

It will be. Until either Stark or Osborn starts actually doing it. Then it will just be referring to what they did in universe.

And yes, that is a hugh part of the trap. They get so wrapped up in thinking that, they never think "But what could go wrong if this plan is and stays successful.". And everyone get's to pay for it.

[Joran]

Lots to talk about so I won't quote everyone.

Individuals on the Index: Outside of Scorch, have we met anyone else who was on the Index who didn't commit a crime? Everyone who's been powered and was in SHIELD custody have had a bad time, probably because of HYDRA. The three people that Cal dug up were obviously not treated humanely (although they were all guilty of crimes), and both Blizzard and Blackout had their powers experimented on when in SHIELD custody and Blizzard was indoctrinated.

So generally, it seems like being in SHIELD custody is terrible (probably because HYDRA has its hands on you), but outside of being in SHIELD custody seems to be fine.

People not on the Index: Not being on the Index seems like it doesn't help. HYDRA managed to find Jiaying (twice!), despite her not being on the Index. HYDRA was also tracking Gordon, without him being on the Index either.

Information that isn't on the Index, but still harmful One of the major advantages that the Clairvoyant had on SHIELD was that he had access to SHIELD's records. He could dance circles around everyone (to the point that he managed to appear like he could tell the future), because he had access to all the psych records and other intel that SHIELD had that wasn't the Index. Unless someone wants to argue that SHIELD, an intelligence agency, shouldn't collect intelligence, SHIELD is always going to have information that's going to be ridiculously damaging.

Also, SHIELD can apparently keep secrets secret. Coulson's resurrection and the Guest House were completely invisible to the Clairvoyant.

Purpose of the Index: The Index is a threat assessment, describing the individual and their powers, but it also includes a psychological evaluation with a trained psychologist. I could see SHIELD being really helpful to someone who just developed powers, similar to how Jiaying helped Gordon when he first went into the mist. Coulson also offered the woman in Bahrain protection from all the government agencies that were after her and in Season 1, SHIELD did want to help the woman who they thought had powers.

That said, SHIELD is just coming out of the shadows and is on kind of iffy legal footing without much in the way of resources, so I'm not sure what kind of help SHIELD can provide anyone with powers now.

[Olinser]

Ward is Joker to Agents of SHIELD.

Just too damn good a character to ever consider killing off permanently.

[Rakaydos]

Despite metahuman's reservations about quesada, I dont think MCU Civil war will turn out like comic Civil War.

For one thing, Hill's Shield (under stark) is ideologically aligned with CoulShield, not BullShield- Stark wont be getting faceless minions to support a fashus regime unless he builds them himself.

Instead, I think Stark "Dont give me that 'Man was not meant to know' bullcrap" is going to tell the UN to take a flying leap, and the New Avengers (led by Cap) is going to be sent in to take him down.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Posting mostly so I have a marker for the new thread, but nitpick: Hydra is a Nazi organization, calling Hydra members "comrade" is going to get you shot.

Yeah, they'd say 'Kamerad(en)'.

[Metahuman1]

Why does everyone seem to think the sentinel of liberty is gonna let himself be a fascist puppet?


Particularly post Winter Solider?




Seriously, I make no sense with registration is inevitably gonna be a disaster, but the idea of Captain America going secret police on people Gels just fine?



And note: No, it didn't make a lick of sense when Stark did it in the comic books. It SHOULD have been both of them clocking Hank Pym and Reed Richards in the face, since it's not something EITHER of them would be willing to even consider backing in there right frames of mind.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think the main reason Stark would be pro-reg would come back to his self-identity as a scientist and engineer. Professions that are big on having a single unified system that covers everything.

When you look at it that way, it isn't hard to see him being in favor of registration.

[Rakaydos]

Seriously, I make no sense with registration is inevitably gonna be a disaster, but the idea of Captain America going secret police on people Gels just fine?


What secret police? I already mentioned that shield is mostly on Coulsen's side of the discussion. There's no secret police to be all nazilike with.

However you feel about quesada, he still answers to disney, and throwing out the whole MCU so far wont fly. Certiantly not before Infinity War comes and goes.

[theNater]

Lots to get to; if I miss something somebody wanted a response to, let me know and I'll hit it in a future post.


If someone decides to abuse their gift for anything criminal then the information on the index is crucial to stopping them before they inflict to much damage, or for that matter even finding them.
The vast majority of people who decide to abuse their gift for criminality do that before they are put on the index. The information on the index can't help stop or find them, because there isn't any until they've already been found and stopped once. There's no indication that indexing law-abiding supers helps.


...claiming that about a system as well protected as a national security system or various legal systems simply doesn't make sense unless your willing to go out and say we shouldn't recod any information of that sensitivity because it might be compromised and hurt someone.
There are people who think we shouldn't keep such records, and that's okay. They are allowed to think that. The fact that most disagree doesn't mean they are factually wrong, it just means they have an unpopular opinion.

More to the main point, even among those who believe we should keep those records, there is not a uniform level of concern about the risk. Some think it's negligible, not even worth a second thought, while others think it's a huge issue, just barely edged out by the benefits. You can't assume that anyone who approves of one sensitive list will necessarily approve of a different sensitive list created for a different reason. It's all about comparing benefits to drawbacks, as you acknowledge in a later post.


The vast majority of powered people are again self evidently, (often as much due to psychology and training and lack of resources more than actual power given how many abilities can at least theoretically be used for defence), incapable of protecting themselves against organisation with paramilitary capabilities they are in a specific sense incapable of looking after themselves in regards to a specific aspect of the life of a powered person.
Are they incapable of recognizing that themselves, and signing up for the index voluntarily? Because that's the degree of inability mandatory registration implies, and that's the implication that I find objectionable.


...why should [the Inhumans] be trusted by people who don't quite know them and don't have reason to believe them to be able to either police themselves (remember Bahrain) or defend themselves (remember that Gordon being tracked and Afterlife being exposed is only the first step towards a ton of crafty baddies landing on your dodoorstep).
Haven't they earned even a modicum of trust by virtue of neither attacking nor being conquered by any other group for centuries? Does that count for nothing?


Also, everyone someone goes Pro Reg/Pro Index, from now on I'm just gonna say Hail Hydra Comrade at them.
I think an index with voluntary registration and significant benefits could be a good idea, if done correctly. Does that get me a Hail Hydra?


...that doesn't mean they should give up trying to protect the elementary school from the pyrokinetic across the street.
At this point, though, you've failed on the Lawful Good. There is baked into this statement the assumption that the pyrokinetic will attempt to burn down the school, with nothing more backing it up than the ownership of fire-based powers. That is a failure to respect the dignity of a sentient being; specifically, the pyrokinetic.

[3SecondCultist]

At this point, though, you've failed on the Lawful Good. There is baked into this statement the assumption that the pyrokinetic will attempt to burn down the school, with nothing more backing it up than the ownership of fire-based powers. That is a failure to respect the dignity of a sentient being; specifically, the pyrokinetic.

My apologies, I was unclear on this point. What I meant was the pyrokinetic who had shown repeated behaviors of trying to harm people, and had no clear desire to atone for or stop any of his actions. Yes, it's a straw argument to help my case. But the point remains: that the desire to do good does not simply go away when one realizes 'perfection' is unattainable. One ought to pursue good for its own sake. That was simply a faulty example.

[theNater]

My apologies, I was unclear on this point. What I meant was the pyrokinetic who had shown repeated behaviors of trying to harm people, and had no clear desire to atone for or stop any of his actions. Yes, it's a straw argument to help my case. But the point remains: that the desire to do good does not simply go away when one realizes 'perfection' is unattainable. One ought to pursue good for its own sake. That was simply a faulty example.
Fair enough. I just thought it was worth clearing up, because lack of clarity like that is the grease on the hinges of the trapdoor.

[Olinser]

My apologies, I was unclear on this point. What I meant was the pyrokinetic who had shown repeated behaviors of trying to harm people, and had no clear desire to atone for or stop any of his actions. Yes, it's a straw argument to help my case. But the point remains: that the desire to do good does not simply go away when one realizes 'perfection' is unattainable. One ought to pursue good for its own sake. That was simply a faulty example.

And THAT is the distinction that pretty much every pro-Reg advocate fails to acknowledge. By it's very nature mandatory registration ASSUMES that nobody with powers is capable of controlling themselves.

Most people on the anti-Reg side acknowledge that some people are criminals, and that some people will abuse their powers for nefarious purposes. They have absolutely zero problem with THOSE people being put on a list like the Index after they've demonstrated criminal or evil behavior. Some are even willing to entertain the idea that people with certain levels of potential destructive power may be required to register. But demanding that every single person with ANY kind of power, regardless of how trivial, be put on a list simply has no useful purpose.

Regardless of your life's record. Regardless of whether you even chose to use your powers. Regardless of whether your powers in any way, shape, or form can potentially harm ANYBODY, you are put on the index.

If your fire power is like Scorch's and good for pretty much nothing but a street magic show or lighting your grill, you get put on the Index alongside Nitro, the mass murdering exploding pyro. If your power is a slightly increased healing factor (like, minor cuts heal quickly but broken bones or serious lacerations still take multiple days), you get put on the index next to Sabertooth, another mass murdering psychopath. If your power is changing the color of your hair (and only your hair) at will, you get put on the index alongside Mystique. If your power is double the average humans natural strength (which still puts you below a not insignificant number of body builders and whatnot without engaging in strength training), you get put on the index next to The Hulk. And so on.

Regarding Stark - I have a tough time accepting they could make him going pro-Reg even slightly believable, given he's already explicitly mistrustful of Fury and SHIELD in general. Also, isn't Robert Downy Jr's contract up? I know he doesn't have another Iron Man movie lined up, I was under the impression he headed for the exit after this Avengers movie.

[theNater]

Regarding Stark - I have a tough time accepting they could make him going pro-Reg even slightly believable, given he's already explicitly mistrustful of Fury and SHIELD in general.
A thought occurs. What if he builds, manages, and maintains a new registry? Doesn't have to trust SHIELD if he's doing his own not-legally-sanctioned registration.

[dehro]

Cal is explicitly NOT an Inhuman, and they accept no responsibility for his actions.

I was referring to "the" Zabos.. meaning Cal and his wife, who have just now thrown the entirety of Afterlife into a war they might not have wanted to take part of if they'd been consulted... one that Coulson/SHIELD certainly doesn't want.
but if we want to go back in time, Jiaying has explicitly stated that in their first search for Skye, both she and Cal did some very questionable things.. who are they going to respond to about those? however, if we give them a free pass on old times crimes, my previous point still stands.

I would like to reiterate 2 of my points:
1) SHIELD exists. Its mission is to keep knowledge of powered individuals as much of a secret as possible, manage those who become unruly and identify threats both from the supers and towards those supers who behave like normal citizens and therefore should be protected by the rule of law just like the mundanes.
to do this they necessarily have to know as much as they can about the individual supers in order to know what they're dealing with and, if need be, what they're up against. you may call it Index or yellow pages, or Coulson's private notebook, but someone, somewhere, has to have an oversight and a means to collect the informations SHIELD needs to operate. SHIELD simply cannot exist without it.

2) now that the cat is out of the bag (after New York, even more so after Sokovia, but in general with the powers that be being fully aware of the existence of supers and, most recently, of Afterlife), things will have to change. Afterlife was perfectly capable to police itself when the world didn't know about them, information was shared by word of mouth and you had to catch a super in the act to even know what was happening (provided you didn't call in the Spanish Inquisition). in a world made of smartphones and hackers and large corporations who flaunt a HYDRA logo on their doorstep and napkins, in a world where there are many people like Skye (the hacker) who know where to look (and what to look for now), supers are being hunted down.. HYDRA just got there first. Other criminal sindicates, nutjob billionaires, rogue nations and powerhungry freaks are out there and would be the next to identify a super here and there, capture them, experiment on them or otherwise exploit them. Afterlife simply cannot afford to trust their bubble of anonimity anymore and must reach out to one or the other organisation/government in order to get some recognition, protection,assistance and backup, as and when need be.
The notion that they really can protect themselves and are, as it appears now, hellbent on proving it with an all out war is flawed.. all it's going to do is escalating the conflict on a global scale. Dealing with SHIELD through compromise and diplomacy is one thing, pointing a bunch of supers against nuclear powered and trigger happy sovereign nations who would feel threatened and escalate the conflict further, only has 2 outcomes. Either Talbott carpet-bombs Afterlife and the Inhumans lose the battle and a lot of lives in the process, or they reveal themselves ruthless and powerful enough to subdue the entire world... but they'd become the bad guys in such a scenario, and it seems to me that that's not the spirit nor the intention of the show.

as for the notion Index=bad because unsafe.. let's pretend there is no Index.. there are still going to be traces and records of individual accidents and occurrences,news reports, police reports. A whole host of agencies, government, corporations will have their own version of a set of informations about the occasional encounter with a super. HYDRA themselves must have a place where they collect all they know on the experiments they've performed.
a committed hacker with the means and the reason to find info about supers really has only to pick one of the many leads that are out there at this time. They need not even bother disturbing SHIELD's servers... Ultimately, that's how Skye got into this mess in the first place... and no, she never knew about the Index, back then.
The index was outed primarily from within, by HYDRA members who infiltrated the organisation over a period of half a century at least. with a new and more aware SHIELD, such a thing is going to be much harder to accomplish... especially so if the comunity of the inhumans is aware and collaborative. Hell.. they could even ask to be the custodians of the Index (in fact I bet they have their own version of it already), allowing only super-trusted/vetted individuals from SHIELD access to it. Yes, it may still not be impervious to infiltration and discovery, but with a world scrambling to find out all they can about supers and how to potentially employ/take advantage of them, it's safer to share informations with an ally you know and can double check on (through Agent Skye), giving them the upper hand against HYDRA and similar who have proven to resort to torture and murder against your people and your leader herself, than to just shut out everybody and hope for the best.
given all of this, would you rather there be someone out there who has the facts and knows what's what, or would you rather leave the general public to draw their own conclusions through what they may find on google, reddit, conspiracy theory websites or scandalistic/militant newspapers who report on incomplete informations at best?

[comicshorse]

2) now that the cat is out of the bag (after New York, even more so after Sokovia, but in general with the powers that be being fully aware of the existence of supers and, most recently, of Afterlife), things will have to change. Afterlife was perfectly capable to police itself when the world didn't know about them, information was shared by word of mouth and you had to catch a super in the act to even know what was happening (provided you didn't call in the Spanish Inquisition). in a world made of smartphones and hackers and large corporations who flaunt a HYDRA logo on their doorstep and napkins, in a world where there are many people like Skye (the hacker) who know where to look (and what to look for now), supers are being hunted down.. HYDRA just got there first. Other criminal sindicates, nutjob billionaires, rogue nations and powerhungry freaks are out there and would be the next to identify a super here and there, capture them, experiment on them or otherwise exploit them. Afterlife simply cannot afford to trust their bubble of anonimity anymore and must reach out to one or the other organisation/government in order to get some recognition, protection,assistance and backup, as and when need be.
The notion that they really can protect themselves and are, as it appears now, hellbent on proving it with an all out war is flawed.. all it's going to do is escalating the conflict on a global scale. Dealing with SHIELD through compromise and diplomacy is one thing, pointing a bunch of supers against nuclear powered and trigger happy sovereign nations who would feel threatened and escalate the conflict further, only has 2 outcomes. Either Talbott carpet-bombs Afterlife and the Inhumans lose the battle and a lot of lives in the process, or they reveal themselves ruthless and powerful enough to subdue the entire world... but they'd become the bad guys in such a scenario, and it seems to me that that's not the spirit nor the intention of the show.

[/QUOTE]

Absolutely this. In the old days the Inhumans were protected by the fact that the very idea of their existence was ridiculous but the world has changed

[Metahuman1]

Nater: Strictly Voluntary only? That depends now on one detail, is it one Index for people who opted to voluntarily register, and a separate thing for people the avengers had to drag in cause they caught them trying to assassinate the president? If yes, then no, that would be a not entirely unreasonable position to want to take.

Generally inadvisable for reasons laid out above, but in and of itself not an unreasonable idea.


And THAT is the distinction that pretty much every pro-Reg advocate fails to acknowledge. By it's very nature mandatory registration ASSUMES that nobody with powers is capable of controlling themselves.

Most people on the anti-Reg side acknowledge that some people are criminals, and that some people will abuse their powers for nefarious purposes. They have absolutely zero problem with THOSE people being put on a list like the Index after they've demonstrated criminal or evil behavior. Some are even willing to entertain the idea that people with certain levels of potential destructive power may be required to register. But demanding that every single person with ANY kind of power, regardless of how trivial, be put on a list simply has no useful purpose.

Regardless of your life's record. Regardless of whether you even chose to use your powers. Regardless of whether your powers in any way, shape, or form can potentially harm ANYBODY, you are put on the index.

If your fire power is like Scorch's and good for pretty much nothing but a street magic show or lighting your grill, you get put on the Index alongside Nitro, the mass murdering exploding pyro. If your power is a slightly increased healing factor (like, minor cuts heal quickly but broken bones or serious lacerations still take multiple days), you get put on the index next to Sabertooth, another mass murdering psychopath. If your power is changing the color of your hair (and only your hair) at will, you get put on the index alongside Mystique. If your power is double the average humans natural strength (which still puts you below a not insignificant number of body builders and whatnot without engaging in strength training), you get put on the index next to The Hulk. And so on.

Regarding Stark - I have a tough time accepting they could make him going pro-Reg even slightly believable, given he's already explicitly mistrustful of Fury and SHIELD in general. Also, isn't Robert Downy Jr's contract up? I know he doesn't have another Iron Man movie lined up, I was under the impression he headed for the exit after this Avengers movie.

Pretty much this.



Also, the way they do it in the comics was a super villain that the government had failed to hold about as many times as they've failed to hold the Joker longer then he wants to be held, Nitro, blew up a suburban Neighborhood while a bunch of supers were trying to apprehend him and his group on camera. (the new warriors, kinda reality TV super version of COPS.) And then we ignored that the New Warriors had canonically made arrangements for exactly this sort of thing so it didn't happen and ignored that again, the government knew who he was and what he could do, and kept letting him out anyway in spite of this not being the first time he's done such a thing.

So that we can cut to a funeral for a bunch of kids who died in the incident so one of the mothers can run up to Stark, who came to give condolences in spite of not being involved, slap him across the face, scream profanity at him along side a lot of "It's your fault it's all you fault and your gonna walk!".

Oh, did that not make sense in light of Starks 50 years of canon or even the break down of the actual timeline of events? Good, cause it didn't. It was stupid and unbelievable and blatant character assassination to get what Quesada and Mark Miller wanted.


Cap at least made sense by saying "Yeah, I fought a rather massive war to oppose this kind of thing, so, respectfully, I am not gonna enforce this, and I am not gonna comply and register as protest, cause this is a really bad idea.". to Which Maria Hills response was to bring in a team of gunmen with assault rifles and ignore repeated warnings from cap not to have them stick those things in his face and demand he do it or die were he stood, only two options end of story, and she really hoped he'd take option 2. This ended precisely as well as you might think.

So, no, that's the problem, there is no GOOD way to get either Cap or Tony to be willing to support registration. Now, If it was a thing were Loki or a Kree or someone else who's a master shape shifter or illusionist was impersonating Stark or Cap after capturing him for most of the movie, or were one of them is being Mind Controlled, that could work. Or just openly have Stark oppose it and Norman Osborn supporting it, that could work. But it's not what were looking to get at the rate this is going. Hence the whole "There gonna ruin the MCU with this plot before we can even get to Thanos.".



As for contracts being up, Have stark take an injury that takes him out for awhile and decide he's really done with being on the front lines, and then just reference that he did this or that form time to time. Rogers? The Serum wore off and he aged in the comic books, why not do that now? Or, you know, your fighting a universe scale threat, maybe you two are the casualty's. I could even be OK with that last one if it was handled well.

There is 0 good reason to even touch on Civil War, which is part of why I have such a bad feeling about them doing it.





As far as the Inhumans go, I REALLY hope it turns out they have access to a metric ton of Kree Tech and a moon base with a massive population just to shut that argument down cold.

[Calemyr]

Is it just me, or is it kinda funny how the people who detest this Quesada guy the most also seem to insist that his version of the story is the only one that can be told? The movies are a distillation and retelling of the story, right? They've made some pretty big departures from the comics already, yeah? Mandarin comes to mind, for example. I personally thought that was a brilliant twist that makes a lot more sense than two fists full of magical alien metal, but that's beside the point. The point is, they aren't asking how they can bend their characters and narrative to fit the comics, they're asking how they can bend the comics to fit their characters and narrative. How can the stories be shaped so it makes sense for these people in this world? And that's for the best, I think, as I imagine even the staunchest comic book guy will admit the comics are (by virtue of having to keep the story interesting enough to keep selling over decades) often at times absurdly silly if taken as a whole.

I have to believe that, Whedon or no*, the folks crafting the MCU have enough brains to look at the comic books and study where they went wrong. This already includes reducing a massive sprawling mess of inconsistent message and vision into a single movie with what I assume will be a tightly governed narrative. That will likely mean that neither side will be evil, just a question of priorities.

* Note that Whedon doesn't seem to be the mastermind behind everything. He wasn't even the start of the MCU's success. He made two very good movies and used his name to give a very interesting show the momentum to (barely) survive it's necessarily lackluster first half season. There are a lot of really talented people involved, and they seem to genuinely be working together to create a cohesive meta-narrative. Joss is not God, just a very skilled storyteller.

As for the current AoS plot, I agree that Ward is pretty safe. I also don't think he'll be made into something recognizable the way Skye was. If Ward became someone defined by canon, he'd be much weaker as a wild card - you'd know who he's supposed to be in general terms. As it is, Ward is a wonderful revolving door of truths and lies. Turns out Ward's boring agent act was an act, and that he's a skilled manipulator who can jump from role to role mid-conversation if it suits him. Also turns out his family was awful, and this his brother was the bastard Ward said he was. It's anyone's guess what is true about the guy and what is a careful con, and even the "facts" we know about him are presented in an ambiguous way - did Christian admit his wrong doing or is he just a coward who knew the lies Ward wanted to hear? Tying him to any official character would kill what makes him intriguing.

[LaZodiac]

As for the current AoS plot, I agree that Ward is pretty safe. I also don't think he'll be made into something recognizable the way Skye was. If Ward became someone defined by canon, he'd be much weaker as a wild card - you'd know who he's supposed to be in general terms. As it is, Ward is a wonderful revolving door of truths and lies. Turns out Ward's boring agent act was an act, and that he's a skilled manipulator who can jump from role to role mid-conversation if it suits him. Also turns out his family was awful, and this his brother was the bastard Ward said he was. It's anyone's guess what is true about the guy and what is a careful con, and even the "facts" we know about him are presented in an ambiguous way - did Christian admit his wrong doing or is he just a coward who knew the lies Ward wanted to hear? Tying him to any official character would kill what makes him intriguing.

I genuinely, truly feel that Grant Ward is the one who's the main "evil" in his family. His family is ****, yes, but Grant is the source of it. He killed his entire family and made it look like his brother did it and then committed suicide.

But yes, everything you've said is correct, and it's why I'm not participating in this civil war discussion. We'll see how it is when we get to it. Also, for what it's worth, they've hinted that the comic version of the Mandarin does exist in a short staring the fake Mandarin, so he might show up to fight Dr Strange.

[Reddish Mage]

I genuinely, truly feel that Grant Ward is the one who's the main "evil" in his family. His family is ****, yes, but Grant is the source of it. He killed his entire family and made it look like his brother did it and then committed suicide.

But yes, everything you've said is correct, and it's why I'm not participating in this civil war discussion. We'll see how it is when we get to it. Also, for what it's worth, they've hinted that the comic version of the Mandarin does exist in a short staring the fake Mandarin, so he might show up to fight Dr Strange.

That sounds like a cool short, I need to get it. I find Dr Strange and comic-Mandarin to be a big shift, because, up to now, magic simply appears not to exist in the MCU.

[Olinser]

Is it just me, or is it kinda funny how the people who detest this Quesada guy the most also seem to insist that his version of the story is the only one that can be told? The movies are a distillation and retelling of the story, right? They've made some pretty big departures from the comics already, yeah? Mandarin comes to mind, for example. I personally thought that was a brilliant twist that makes a lot more sense than two fists full of magical alien metal, but that's beside the point. The point is, they aren't asking how they can bend their characters and narrative to fit the comics, they're asking how they can bend the comics to fit their characters and narrative. How can the stories be shaped so it makes sense for these people in this world? And that's for the best, I think, as I imagine even the staunchest comic book guy will admit the comics are (by virtue of having to keep the story interesting enough to keep selling over decades) often at times absurdly silly if taken as a whole.

I have to believe that, Whedon or no*, the folks crafting the MCU have enough brains to look at the comic books and study where they went wrong. This already includes reducing a massive sprawling mess of inconsistent message and vision into a single movie with what I assume will be a tightly governed narrative. That will likely mean that neither side will be evil, just a question of priorities.

* Note that Whedon doesn't seem to be the mastermind behind everything. He wasn't even the start of the MCU's success. He made two very good movies and used his name to give a very interesting show the momentum to (barely) survive it's necessarily lackluster first half season. There are a lot of really talented people involved, and they seem to genuinely be working together to create a cohesive meta-narrative. Joss is not God, just a very skilled storyteller.

As for the current AoS plot, I agree that Ward is pretty safe. I also don't think he'll be made into something recognizable the way Skye was. If Ward became someone defined by canon, he'd be much weaker as a wild card - you'd know who he's supposed to be in general terms. As it is, Ward is a wonderful revolving door of truths and lies. Turns out Ward's boring agent act was an act, and that he's a skilled manipulator who can jump from role to role mid-conversation if it suits him. Also turns out his family was awful, and this his brother was the bastard Ward said he was. It's anyone's guess what is true about the guy and what is a careful con, and even the "facts" we know about him are presented in an ambiguous way - did Christian admit his wrong doing or is he just a coward who knew the lies Ward wanted to hear? Tying him to any official character would kill what makes him intriguing.

SO FAR, that's how they've been handling it. Now, I don't necessarily share the fear, but the fear is that before this point, the storylines and concepts for Marvel adaptations had been pretty well set, Quesada has not been in a position to force his version of stories onto productions, and that Joss Whedon was the only one who possessed the balls to tell him his ideas were stupid to his face (not my quote, from a friend of mine who I legitimately think might have a voodoo shrine dedicated to trying to kill Quesada).

With Quesada's ascension, the departure of Whedon, and the next big storyline set to feature one of Quesada's most reviled brainchildren (Civil War), many people are leery of Quesada.

[Olinser]

I genuinely, truly feel that Grant Ward is the one who's the main "evil" in his family. His family is ****, yes, but Grant is the source of it. He killed his entire family and made it look like his brother did it and then committed suicide.

But yes, everything you've said is correct, and it's why I'm not participating in this civil war discussion. We'll see how it is when we get to it. Also, for what it's worth, they've hinted that the comic version of the Mandarin does exist in a short staring the fake Mandarin, so he might show up to fight Dr Strange.

I had a different impression.

My impression was that his brother was the source, and that Grant just took it to the next level. Remember, before Garrett got ahold of him he was just a dumb kid that stole a car and tried to burn down his parents house (and couldn't even do that without getting caught). Garrett gave him the training, motivation, and ideology to become a truly dangerous individual.

[3SecondCultist]

I had a different impression.

My impression was that his brother was the source, and that Grant just took it to the next level. Remember, before Garrett got ahold of him he was just a dumb kid that stole a car and tried to burn down his parents house. Garrett gave him the training, motivation, and ideology to become a truly dangerous individual.

This is what I thought was the case as well. Ultimately, we'll probably never know the real story (and that's what's so great about Ward), but my view on the matter was that, yes, Ward was seriously troubled as a kid and Christian as well as his parents had a huge hand in that. But it was what Garrett did to him that made him worse, forged him into a killer. The willingness to lie, to try and play on others' feelings was already there when Garrett met him in juvi, as we see from "Ragtag". Garrett just built on it, turning Ward into a weapon.

[Rakaydos]

The big issue with completely changing characters in the MCU, is that unlike comics, the actors themselves get a say in the matter. If Robert Downy Jr walks into Queada's office, slaps the script down, and says "This isnt iron man, I'm not playing that", what's Quesada going to do?

[lt_murgen]

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/2/1362599_02bcdea730.jpg

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/028/157/F2O6S4LLC5DOYYTGNXXAQQ6WXS5W4CWN.png

http://i.imgur.com/KJphK.gif

[Metahuman1]

SO FAR, that's how they've been handling it. Now, I don't necessarily share the fear, but the fear is that before this point, the storylines and concepts for Marvel adaptations had been pretty well set, Quesada has not been in a position to force his version of stories onto productions, and that Joss Whedon was the only one who possessed the balls to tell him his ideas were stupid to his face (not my quote, from a friend of mine who I legitimately think might have a voodoo shrine dedicated to trying to kill Quesada).

With Quesada's ascension, the departure of Whedon, and the next big storyline set to feature one of Quesada's most reviled brainchildren (Civil War), many people are leery of Quesada.

Pretty much, but here's a bit more break down.



2005-06 or so: Marvel founds Marvel Studios. Joe Quesada is Editor in chief at Marvel, doens't really get much say in it.

2008: Marvel comes out with Iron Man, the MCU starts. Joe Quesada is still Editor in chief at Marvel, doesn't really get much say in it. It goes really well.

2011: Quesada get's promoted and put in charge of all adaptations of all Marvel Comics into media outside of comics. That means he's now in charge of ALL the movies, but Marvel has already brought Joss Wheadon in to do The Avengers and it's already well in production so it's really too late for him to start getting his fingers in the pie on Phase 1. He'll have to wait for Phase 2.

2012: Joss Wheadon's The Avengers comes out, breaks opening weekend records and takes the number 3 slot for highest grossing movies of all time, surpassed by ONLY James Camero's Avatar and Titanic. Wheadon get's kept in charge of the MCU for this.

Work on Phase 2 begins, and now that Wheadon's broken more records then Quesada has bones in his body, Wheadon can, will, and privetly, does repeatedly, tell him to **** down and shut up and let the adults work.

2015: Phase 2 ends. Marvel has required Quesada's favorite toy, Spiderman and all his mythos for the MCU, Joss Wheadon becomes burnt out and opts to leave in order to work on stuff he personally owns for awhile and give himself a rest. Joss Wheadon, the only man with the pull from the sheer stupid amount of money and popularity his tenure brought the MCU, to do what must be done with Quesada. Tell him to sit down, shut up, and let the actual adults work.

This is why I'm REALLY worried that Quesada, once again, is gonna make a train wreck of it. Particularly since, again, all he has to do is make 1 movie that ties into the main avengers line bomb hard, and that's all she wrote for the MCU.



As for what happens if the actors tell them "Hell no." he has options.

1: Get a different actor in there, just publicly say we had a "Difference of opinion." and not sweat it. See what happened to Ed Norton.

2: Tell them "To bad, we have a contract, your doing this movie as written. Deal with it.".

Would this likely create a lot of bad blood and make things worse instead of better? Absolutely. But he'll do it anyway. This is a man who has no problem using a brand new captain America's first issue to tell everyone who doesn't' agree with his personal politics that there just racists and should thus be dismissed out of hand, or using an alternate universe version of Peter Parker to tell everyone who watches comic book movies or reads comic books or plays computer or video games that they are by that virtue alone losers who will never amount to much. He'll throw his fit, claim that the true fans will support him and get what he's doing and everyone else is just too stupid, and get his way. Like he has consistently done for a decade and a half now when Joss Wheadon wasn't personally tell him nothing doing.

So yeah, my only real hope is that after Civil War they can at least repair the damage he's done and Marvel and Disney will be quick to fire and blacklist him permanently form so much as going to a Disney Park let alone working on a top selling property for the rest of his life. Cause that's problem 1 out of 5 down at Marvel. (Your days will also come, Mark Miller, Chuck Austin, Brian Michel Bendez and Jeph Lobe.)


lt_murgen: I groaned, I laughed, I face palmed, it was glorious!

[lt_murgen]

lt_murgen: I groaned, I laughed, I face palmed, it was glorious!

:smallbiggrin:

[Rakaydos]

So far, your case against Civil War seems to be:
The comic storyline was awful
The director of the awful comic has a hypothetical oversight role over all the movies.
The guy who made the good movies left.

Does that about sum it up?

[Metahuman1]

Replace "Director from the comic books has a hypothetical oversight" with "Director form the comic books now has total oversight."

And

"Guy who made the good movies left." with "Guy who made a couple of the good movies and out of the crowd of people making the good movies was the only one with the pull to succeed at making the guy who directed the comic books go sit in the time out corner where he belongs." and then add "Guy who directed the comic book is ego maniac. Who puts his own enjoyment ahead of everything and is actively contemptuous of anyone who goes to see his work. Who has no problem deliberately giving them the middle finger, and never learns form his mistakes because he feels he's never made any." And now you've about got it.

[Rakaydos]

So basically what I said, but with more vitrol.

[theNater]

1) SHIELD exists. Its mission is to keep knowledge of powered individuals as much of a secret as possible, manage those who become unruly and identify threats both from the supers and towards those supers who behave like normal citizens and therefore should be protected by the rule of law just like the mundanes.
to do this they necessarily have to know as much as they can about the individual supers in order to know what they're dealing with and, if need be, what they're up against. you may call it Index or yellow pages, or Coulson's private notebook, but someone, somewhere, has to have an oversight and a means to collect the informations SHIELD needs to operate. SHIELD simply cannot exist without it.

...there are still going to be traces and records of individual accidents and occurrences,news reports, police reports. A whole host of agencies, government, corporations will have their own version of a set of informations about the occasional encounter with a super.
How about this? Every time those agencies generate one of those reports, a copy is sent to SHIELD. Now they have the information they need!

I don't think anybody is saying that SHIELD shouldn't keep records. The problem is the obsessive hunting of people with powers, just so their existence can be recorded. The gotta-catch-em-all mentality is good applied to Pokemon, but less good when directed at people.


Afterlife simply cannot afford to trust their bubble of anonimity anymore and must reach out to one or the other organisation/government in order to get some recognition, protection,assistance and backup, as and when need be.
Why is that SHIELD's call to make, and not Afterlife's? The proactive push by SHIELD is the problem. If enough time is allowed to pass for Afterlife to recognize that they need help, a SHIELD that didn't push would be a more appealing ally than the insistent, overbearing SHIELD that they currently see.


snip
The Hue-Manatee is my favorite.

[Olinser]

So far, your case against Civil War seems to be:
The comic storyline was awful
The director of the awful comic has a hypothetical oversight role over all the movies.
The guy who made the good movies left.

Does that about sum it up?

Well, it was a little more than that. The comic storyline was awful, AND he refused to admit the storyline was awful in the face of overwhelming criticism, and basically told the readership they were too stupid to understand his brilliance.

[Metahuman1]

Well, it was a little more than that. The comic storyline was awful, AND he refused to admit the storyline was awful in the face of overwhelming criticism, and basically told the readership they were too stupid to understand his brilliance.

And then started calling them racists and loosers in following years and events using characters in universe as his mouth piece.

[Joran]

"Guy who made the good movies left." with "Guy who made a couple of the good movies and out of the crowd of people making the good movies was the only one with the pull to succeed at making the guy who directed the comic books go sit in the time out corner where he belongs." and then add "Guy who directed the comic book is ego maniac. Who puts his own enjoyment ahead of everything and is actively contemptuous of anyone who goes to see his work. Who has no problem deliberately giving them the middle finger, and never learns form his mistakes because he feels he's never made any." And now you've about got it.

I'm unsure how much power Joss Whedon actually had over the greater Marvel universe. Marvel threw down particular mandates to Joss Whedon, things like the villain having to be Loki, the Avengers needing to fight one another. Whedon managed to convince them on other things like Black Widow needing to be a part of the movie and fought a lot to convince them that Hawkeye's farmhouse scene in Avengers 2 was necessary.

Marvel Studios has always exercised a lot of oversight and meddling on their properties and have generally been successful in making entertaining movies. Sometimes to the detriment, considering I love everything Edgar Wright has done and they removed him from Ant-Man. I'm just not convinced that Quesada is holding that much sway, considering Kevin Feige has been the President of Production for the entirety of the Marvel movies franchise.

The Civil War movie is being written by the same duo who wrote the Captain America movies. I particularly liked Winter Soldier, so up until I have a reason, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.



I don't think anybody is saying that SHIELD shouldn't keep records. The problem is the obsessive hunting of people with powers, just so their existence can be recorded. The gotta-catch-em-all mentality is good applied to Pokemon, but less good when directed at people.


Why is that SHIELD's call to make, and not Afterlife's? The proactive push by SHIELD is the problem. If enough time is allowed to pass for Afterlife to recognize that they need help, a SHIELD that didn't push would be a more appealing ally than the insistent, overbearing SHIELD that they currently see.


Afterlife's interactions with SHIELD have been less than good so far.

1) Gordon rescued Reina, a known murderer and collaborator with HYDRA, moments before she was going to be apprehended by SHIELD agents.
2) Gordon rescued Cal, a known murderer and collaborator with HYDRA, moments before he was going to be apprehended by SHIELD agents.
3) Afterlife is harboring both Reina and Cal.
4) Lincoln attacked Deathlok, an Agent of SHIELD, causing both to be captured by HYDRA.
5) Gordon and Reina infiltrated a SHIELD vessel and was spotted trying to gain access to a secure location with an alien artifact.

All in all, Afterlife is doing a poor job of staying off of SHIELD's radar and demonstrating they're not hostile.

[Carl]

@Metahuman:

1. Several of the threats you've named involve rouge elements of existing races, those are very much the responsibility of of said races to stop.

2. the vast majority if not all of the threats you listed involves group's individuals, e.t.c that are for all intents and purposes physical ghods. There's a reason a lot of thing including laws IRL don't take account of acts of god. it's impossible and impractical to do so and have any kind of working system that does it's intended purpose.

3. Sure nukes might be low key for such individuals. But their much more high key than any possible combination of Index level people, with the possible exception of certain, very public figures that could/would be part of the avengers. And the latter's very public persona makes them far more vulnerable than any index ever could.

Basically the kind of people who could so trivially compromised the index have no valid reason to do so. The Index does not represent anywhere near the maximum level of power they can obtain via such capabilities. Thats not to say they would never wever target it, but that it's nmever going to be their primary target, there's no good reason for it to be.


@Joran: No as Scorch proves the Index also acts to keep as many as possible out of the public eye, The Avengers initiative would probably require some changes, but i never said the little details where perfect. Merely the basic concept was sound.

Scorch also shows that it's used to spot and counter attempts to exploit such individual's.

And per repairs it also act's as a means administratively for SHIELD to provide support and help in adjusting to their new reality.

That's why i compared Afterlife to the Index. What they do at Afterlife is exactly what SHIELD does with the Index. It's not just a defence system. It's a complete social services program for gifted.


@Natter: And every scientific theory is just a theory, not a fact, but that doesn't stop them being treated as such because their de facto facts.

Also again there's plenty of disabled people, ( i don't qualify to that level but 2 members of my family do), don't get to decide for themselves weather they can look after themselves entirely on their own. At the end of the day the law has decided that their own well being supercededs their own desire for independance. People can and will do stupid things out of stubborn pride and decisions as to competency to look after themselves have to be made on the basis of facts not their own emotional judgment.

[dehro]

How about this? Every time those agencies generate one of those reports, a copy is sent to SHIELD. Now they have the information they need!

I don't think anybody is saying that SHIELD shouldn't keep records. The problem is the obsessive hunting of people with powers, just so their existence can be recorded. The gotta-catch-em-all mentality is good applied to Pokemon, but less good when directed at people.


Why is that SHIELD's call to make, and not Afterlife's? The proactive push by SHIELD is the problem. If enough time is allowed to pass for Afterlife to recognize that they need help, a SHIELD that didn't push would be a more appealing ally than the insistent, overbearing SHIELD that they currently see.


SHIELD works best in anonymity. Having to chase down reports from others and having to play catchup doesn't quite seem like an effective way to operate and to ensure that all those other agencies and governments stay in line and don't get any funny ideas like hiding data or plotting to use the Inhumans.
The hunting was never obsessive, they didn't go scour maternity wards of the world to intercept inhumans at birth. They simply reacted to strange events and people flagged by the news or cops.
If they've always acted quickly it's because if they didn't, people got hurt, or maybe someone else beat them to it.
Now things are different and an entire community of inhumans requires a different approach. SHIELD is decimated and has to struggle to keep up against HYDRA. A preventive strategy, be it an alliance or a generic indexing is the logical call for them. Delivered poorly and possibly with ulterior motive by Gonzales, but it was the proposal on the table.
Accepting it or not, definitely was Afterlife's call to make, but time started being in short supply as soon as the tech was developed to track Gordon and find Afterlife... Not by SHIELD, I might add.
So they made the call.. And it was a call to arms.

[Joran]

Now things are different and an entire community of inhumans requires a different approach. SHIELD is decimated and has to struggle to keep up against HYDRA. A preventive strategy, be it an alliance or a generic indexing is the logical call for them. Delivered poorly and possibly with ulterior motive by Gonzales, but it was the proposal on the table.
Accepting it or not, definitely was Afterlife's call to make, but time started being in short supply as soon as the tech was developed to track Gordon and find Afterlife... Not by SHIELD, I might add.
So they made the call.. And it was a call to arms.

Gonzales surprised me by how well he did actually. He presented SHIELD's side the way I would have thought Coulson would, albeit without Coulson's charisma or warmth. He tried to find common ground, presented a token to show trust, and got murdered. I think Jaiying would have killed Coulson too; the entire idea of Indexing to her is anathema.

[Rakaydos]

Gonzales surprised me by how well he did actually. He presented SHIELD's side the way I would have thought Coulson would, albeit without Coulson's charisma or warmth. He tried to find common ground, presented a token to show trust, and got murdered. I think Jaiying would have killed Coulson too; the entire idea of Indexing to her is anathema.

i'm not so sure that coulsen would have "presented" anything at all. If Coulsen, Jaiyng, Skye and Mr Hyde were in the same room together, I suspect Coulsen would be spending the first session talking about Skye and her family issues.

If Mr Hyde never leaves the room and Skye remains present, the frame doesnt work. Combined with Coulsen being a reasonable person, Skye's mom might have been turned off her plan entirely.

[Flickerdart]

Wasn't Gonzales the one who was pushing for Indexing the Inhumans in the first place? I think if Coulson had been allowed to go, he would have spent the first meeting just building bridges, and then eventually proposed Indexing in a very clear "if you don't want to, it's cool, I can just rub Gonzales' face in the refusal and go do something fun" way.

[Olinser]

i'm not so sure that coulsen would have "presented" anything at all. If Coulsen, Jaiyng, Skye and Mr Hyde were in the same room together, I suspect Coulsen would be spending the first session talking about Skye and her family issues.

If Mr Hyde never leaves the room and Skye remains present, the frame doesnt work. Combined with Coulsen being a reasonable person, Skye's mom might have been turned off her plan entirely.

Not to mention the fact that Gonzales' entire framing of the issue was essentially an accusation of, "All of you can't be trusted and people have to be protected from your evilness, so let us tag you or else. Tact is everything, and he had none.

Coulson would have approached it from a standpoint of, "We've had problems with people abusing powers in the past, and the Index was our solution, I'm sure we can work together to figure out a solution to keep control of powered people looking to do harm."

[dehro]

Agreed, and that's where the hand of the writers shows.. Because by then, by the time Gonzales entered the room, Cal had already juiced up and the Inhuman offensive would have been impossible to cancel, if it had been Coulson instead. Which is why I argued that I disliked the fact that Jiaying her plan was entirely predicated on Gonzales being there, or anybody but Coulson, something she couldn't know, expect or anticipate.

[Joran]

Coulson would have approached it from a standpoint of, "We've had problems with people abusing powers in the past, and the Index was our solution, I'm sure we can work together to figure out a solution to keep control of powered people looking to do harm."

But that would have included Indexing. Coulson earlier in the episode explained to Skye that it's standard procedure for SHIELD. They indexed Skye, they indexed Lincoln, I don't see Coulson willing to bend on that. He would have presented it with more warmth and tact, but bottom line, there was only one thing SHIELD was offering.


Agreed, and that's where the hand of the writers shows.. Because by then, by the time Gonzales entered the room, Cal had already juiced up and the Inhuman offensive would have been impossible to cancel, if it had been Coulson instead. Which is why I argued that I disliked the fact that Jiaying her plan was entirely predicated on Gonzales being there, or anybody but Coulson, something she couldn't know, expect or anticipate.

She also got the Terrigen crystals all on the idea that she was going to do this. It's just luck that Coulson wasn't the one who was stoned.

[Calemyr]

Would Jianying care if it was Coulson? The Terrigen crystal either would have transformed the agent in the room or killed them. Either the agent was one of theirs or dead, nothing else matters.

Outsiders found them. Jianying was fully intent on starting a war. And if the agent in the room was an Inhuman, then it didn't matter anyway. Cal on his own is going to be destructive, but that's alright. SHIELD is a problematic force even if the agent in question survives. No real damage done, and Cal goes out like a hero for his wife and daughter. Oh, and Cal will probably die, which means one less wildcard in Afterlife. If the agent is not Inhuman, well... agent is dead and framed for attempted assassination, and while SHIELD scrambles to identify what happened, Cal will be just waiting for a chance to show them what he can do, ripping SHIELD up from the inside while the Inhumans attempt to do the same from the outside.

[Kitten Champion]

i'm not so sure that coulsen would have "presented" anything at all. If Coulsen, Jaiyng, Skye and Mr Hyde were in the same room together, I suspect Coulsen would be spending the first session talking about Skye and her family issues.

If Mr Hyde never leaves the room and Skye remains present, the frame doesnt work. Combined with Coulsen being a reasonable person, Skye's mom might have been turned off her plan entirely.

While I agree with you that with witnesses present Jiaying's plans are seriously hampered, but again, I don't think this was ever a Coulson v. Gonzales issue. The point of Gonzales being there, aside from the twist that he was going in good faith despite what Metahuman says since that's how that entire scene and this season in general was framed, was that they needed a character who could die for the plot to move forward. Also, just based on the scene, the fact that Gonzales could barely move allowed Jiaying to monologue her motives.

I have the strong suspicion, given Jiaying's sentiments in Scars, that she would hate Coulson in much the same way Cal does. It was SHIELD which took her daughter in as an 0-8-4 and kept her hidden for decades, the same SHIELD she associated with her vivisection at the hands of Whitehall, the same SHIELD which retains a greater part of Skye's loyalty and sense of family even now. The difference is Cal can't control his rage and resentment whereas Jiaying, like Skye, is excellent in masking her true thoughts and feelings.

[3SecondCultist]

I've been watching a few of the more recent episodes in sequence again, and I actually have an idea re:Ward.

What if, at the end of the season, he's captured again... but instead of killing him or imprisoning him again, Coulson puts him through the T.A.H.I.T.I. Protocol, as mentioned in "Frenemy of My Enemy"? Wipes his memories completely? That would be a really neat thing to do with the character, and set up a whole new arc for Season 3 that would be interesting to watch. Coulson has shown that he seems willing to believe that there is still some good in Ward (after the whole 'Bobbi' thing, maybe not, but still), it's not a huge stretch for them to contain him and try to wipe his memories.

The counterpoint to that would be, of course: why not just kill him once he's contained? They could have him stand trial and be killed. But I like the idea of trying to rehabilitate him by purging some of his darker memories. It wouldn't necessarily work, however I'd maybe like to see that.

[dehro]

Would Jianying care if it was Coulson? The Terrigen crystal either would have transformed the agent in the room or killed them. Either the agent was one of theirs or dead, nothing else matters.

Not to her, maybe...But do you think Skye would believe her claim of being assaulted and shot at (like he'd miss her) by Coulson without provocation? Skye May have many doubts about a lot of things, but she knows Coulson too well to believe any such thing. Jiaying must know this and know that she would risk losing her daughter this way.

[Orrmundur]

So the synopsis for season 3 has just been released, and it seems to back up my theory of Afterlife being some sort of splinter group. Though not necessarily, I'll have to admit.

"Director Phil Coulson (Clark Gregg) embarks on a deadly new secret mission to protect the world from new threats in the wake of SHIELD's wars with Hydra and a rogue faction of Inhumans."

[LaZodiac]

I've been watching a few of the more recent episodes in sequence again, and I actually have an idea re:Ward.

What if, at the end of the season, he's captured again... but instead of killing him or imprisoning him again, Coulson puts him through the T.A.H.I.T.I. Protocol, as mentioned in "Frenemy of My Enemy"? Wipes his memories completely? That would be a really neat thing to do with the character, and set up a whole new arc for Season 3 that would be interesting to watch. Coulson has shown that he seems willing to believe that there is still some good in Ward (after the whole 'Bobbi' thing, maybe not, but still), it's not a huge stretch for them to contain him and try to wipe his memories.

The counterpoint to that would be, of course: why not just kill him once he's contained? They could have him stand trial and be killed. But I like the idea of trying to rehabilitate him by purging some of his darker memories. It wouldn't necessarily work, however I'd maybe like to see that.

After kidnapping Bobbi, after giving such a speel about how "I just want Agent 33 to be happy, away from me" I'm pretty sure the thing modification Coulson wants to do to Ward's brain involves a bullet.

[dehro]

I've been watching a few of the more recent episodes in sequence again, and I actually have an idea re:Ward.

What if, at the end of the season, he's captured again... but instead of killing him or imprisoning him again, Coulson puts him through the T.A.H.I.T.I. Protocol, as mentioned in "Frenemy of My Enemy"? Wipes his memories completely? That would be a really neat thing to do with the character, and set up a whole new arc for Season 3 that would be interesting to watch. Coulson has shown that he seems willing to believe that there is still some good in Ward (after the whole 'Bobbi' thing, maybe not, but still), it's not a huge stretch for them to contain him and try to wipe his memories.

The counterpoint to that would be, of course: why not just kill him once he's contained? They could have him stand trial and be killed. But I like the idea of trying to rehabilitate him by purging some of his darker memories. It wouldn't necessarily work, however I'd maybe like to see that.

Agent 33 and Coulson himself are living proof that memories can be regained, naturally or artificially. The last thing Coulson needs is to waste manpower on babysitting Ward to make sure he stays wiped

[Metahuman1]

Ok. I had a solid freaking wall of text of responses to every response here, and then the wifi gliched and I lost it.

So screw it, I'm just gonna say that when the whole mandatory registration thing does turn out to be in and of itself a bad thing whole sale to the core, I'm gonna be there to say "Told you so.". Probably alot.

[Rakaydos]

Ok. I had a solid freaking wall of text of responses to every response here, and then the wifi gliched and I lost it.

So screw it, I'm just gonna say that when the whole mandatory registration thing does turn out to be in and of itself a bad thing whole sale to the core, I'm gonna be there to say "Told you so.". Probably alot.

I predict that both sides will be wrong, with the "truth" somewhere in the middle between Security and Freedom.

[Reddish Mage]

Agent 33 and Coulson himself are living proof that memories can be regained, naturally or artificially. The last thing Coulson needs is to waste manpower on babysitting Ward to make sure he stays wiped

Yeah but it could be an interesting story arc, as Nice-Ward slowly earns the teams trust only to slowly begin to unravel until...he turns on everyone all over again.

[Yana]

... Getting back on track, here comes the season finale!

[SaintRidley]

Well, wow.

Setup for the Bobbi/Hunter spinoff.

Coulson has only one arm! Holy crap! Good save, Mack.

Skye dropped a Quinjet with terrigen crystals into the ocean. Watch out for the Deep Ones (the Infish).

Cal killed Jiaying, and was talked down by Coulson. And he gets sent to Tahiti.

Redheads everywhere.

Holy torture scene.

Ward is Hydra.

And here's the obvious beginning of the setup for Civil War - people like Skye need to be kept secret. And suddenly, we're gonna have a lot of Skyes.

Edit - and WTF just happened to Simmons?

[LaZodiac]

Well, wow.

Setup for the Bobbi/Hunter spinoff.

Coulson has only one arm! Holy crap! Good save, Mack.

Skye dropped a Quinjet with terrigen crystals into the ocean. Watch out for the Deep Ones (the Infish).

Cal killed Jiaying, and was talked down by Coulson. And he gets sent to Tahiti.

Redheads everywhere.

Holy torture scene.

Ward is Hydra.

And here's the obvious beginning of the setup for Civil War - people like Skye need to be kept secret. And suddenly, we're gonna have a lot of Skyes.

Edit - and WTF just happened to Simmons?


I CAN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THIS EPISODE BECAUSE IT'S JUST SO GREAT. Oh my good god holy crap.

Simmons why :<

Coulson's arm why :<

Jiaying, yay!

Cal...I'm sorry. It's a magical place.

I totally called Ward becoming the new Head. This meas he's going to get killed dead.

I don't think this sets up for Lance and Bobbi's side series that was cancelled, and actually makes it LESS likely. Bobbi's ****ed up man.

So, with the crystals in the water infecting the fish, this means that they're setting up for Spiderman and other such things. Super excited for that.

But yeah what happened to Simmons was...crazy. Can't wait to see where this leads...the wait is so long!

[Palanan]

So, the finale. Disappointing in some ways, surprising in others--

--and gawd, that very last moment in the stinger.

:smalleek:

Mac: "I'm the guy who kills Gordon."

Even though he wasn't, he should've been.

I was expecting mayhem on a broader scale, rather than yet another fight in the jeep carrier, so that aspect was a little disappointing. For all the talk about Jiaying's grand plan and long-intended war, it was a fairly personal finale, with more emphasis on the various pairs than any sort of involved global conflict.

And really, "draw them in so we can kill them all"? Jiaying doesn't really have much strategy, despite all the time she's had to think about it.

Again the disappointment: the multiple redhead (aka the Ginger Ninja) was a clear knockoff of Multiple Man, and apart from Gordon the other Inhumans with visible powers weren't all that impressive either. I don't know if this was deliberately done, in order to make Skye seem more interesting by comparison, or if that was all the creativity they had time and budget for. Meh.

Alas, poor Raina; I'd been hoping she'd have more to do, but I suppose she was a convenient way to show Skye how eeeeeeevil Jiaying can be in person.

And 33 was set up to be irredeemable, although her vengeance-on-Bobbi thing seemed to come out of nowhere. Were there hints earlier in the season that Bobbi had handed over 33? I remember Bobbi saying that she'd done some awful things to gain HYDRA's trust, but don't recall if she'd given any details.

Mac was thirty-eight flavors of awesome tonight.

See also: best line.

They managed a nice double fake-out in the scene with Gordon in the HVAC room--first, the setup with Fitz and Jemma, the hints he might not come back; and second with Coulson and the crystal.

Maybe that latter was just me, because I thought I could see it coming: Jiaying releases the crystals, Coulson does something heroic and self-sacrificing, and his exposure to GH123 renders him immune to the terrigen mist.

Well, clearly not, and we're all grateful Mac kept the axe in hand instead of the gun. And Coulson did do something heroic and self-sacrificing; the only thing missing was the immunity. Seriously, he had enough Kree inside him that he was doodling a Kree city with a knife, and yet he's almost killed by the terrigen mist? Maybe this was spelled out during their brief time in the city itself, and I've just forgotten it over the past few months, but it seems odd to me.

Also, I have to wonder how two different Mays could take two different quinjets on two different headings at two different times, and nobody at S.H.I.E.L.D. noticed. How did 33 even take the quinjet without someone cross-checking mission profiles with authorized personnel?

Healthy benefits that will change your life, indeed. Just imagine the lawsuits against the company that makes those supplements…not to mention the FDA investigation.

That very last scene gave me more heebie-jeebies than the entire rest of the season. Possibly both seasons.

:eek:

[LaZodiac]

Jiayang is a little blinded by rage to be thinking of clever plans.

I think the deal with the Inhumans we saw fight was that, we want to save the good ones for season 3. This is just a taste of what we've got in store.

The best thing about the fish supplements is that it clearly sets up for Spiderman, being an Inhuman!

[Kitten Champion]

Well, I'm sincerely glad they did this as a two-parter, I think this show works incredibly well in that format.

Have to say, gonna miss Cal being awesome. He's arguably the best MCU villain yet, and while him being TAHITI'd back to the Good Guy he original was was a perfect conclusion to his story arc I kind of wanted him to stick around to be all father-daughter day with Skye. The scene with Coulson and Cal in particularly worked, Gregg's serious earnestness and MacLachlan working being a Silver Age over-the-top supervillain but with some real pathos underlying him just hits the right note.

They really went all out with the conclusion, money was clearly on the screen with some great fight scenes. They even tried some of the slow-motion Whedon worked into Age of Ultron - which in normal circumstances kind of annoys me but works here since it emulates 3D comic panels and makes the whole thing feel closer to the source material.

Really liked Mack this episode. I liked him early on as Fitz's rehabilitation buddy, but as Fitz got better he just sort of fell into the role of the vaguely contrarian big guy even before the whole "Real" SHIELD reveal and it was kind of one note. Here however he played it much more naturally, and I particularly liked his scenes with Skye. Partly because it dispelled the idea that he held any irrational distrust for her, but mostly because - when I stopped to think about it - they're written to be opposites temperamentally.

I felt at first Simmons was kind of sidelined in this finale, her having to work some SCIENCE stuff and a minutes or two to touch upon the FitzSimmons relationship that's understandably been languishing. I was thinking how a larger cast means the biologist doesn't have to fulfill action roles anymore, which makes sense but not within the realm of comic or television universes. However, that bit at the end made me revise my opinion completely, the fact that she was largely uninvolved with the finale's central plot and sub-plots made that all the more shocking.

If, based on the evidence given and some of my own speculation, that the rock thingy is indeed something like the Kree Sentry for the MCU -- perhaps, instead of a giant robot (which wouldn't work on a TV budget anyways) it instead transforms people into anti-Inhuman weapons. It would certainly be interesting, considering Simmons has reflected some fear about alien artifacts and Inhumans in this season but is largely too good natured for that to ultimately overwhelm her sense of morality, duty, and friendship... but with this? Who knows. It would make an interesting alternative origin story for Captain Marvel, but that's too doubtful for me to really suggest that's what's happening here.

Incidently, when watching Fitz prepare for the invasion of the Icarus I couldn't help remarking on how far his character has come, given how uncomfortable he was as an action-er in the previous season, and despite being remarkably better than he was after his attempted murder and brain damage like in the first half -- he's still not exactly there with his communication faculties.

Oh, then there's Raina. As a character who pursued her own agenda with amoral zeal, and indeed was reasonably described as extremely selfish, to martyr herself for the sake of the future she desired, was a genuine surprise. My friend who was watching with me was pointing out how obviously stupid it was to confront Jaiying in such a fashion, but of course she knew that. I'm disappointed we probably won't see her anymore, part of me hopes this might have all been an elaborate trick on her part as someone who would anticipate the manner of her death and could have prepared to merely look like she was dead -- only to emerge later as the Inhuman leader she wanted to be... but the way they went about it and the dissonance with her earlier characterization was interesting in and of itself so that I'm not really complaining.

Ward taking over the remnants of HYDRA to become the Anti-Agents of SHIELD wasn't exactly surprising, short of killing him there wasn't much of a direction left for him except that. Being a rogue agent criminal dude wasn't going to work for another season, it just has too limited a role within the meta-plot.

Then, we leave off with what I was hoping for but was kinda of worried the show would twiddle their thumbs about before actually getting to (and then, with my luck get cancelled before even trying), which is to say following through on the ideas from Secret Warriors. Like with much of the series it's drawn from that Bendis/Hickman title, but absent - at least before the arrival of Daisy Johnson - were the secret team of Fury's Superheroes operatives. Now they're getting around to it, and that makes me happy.

Then other, other thing - that is to say the Terrigenesis release - isn't quite as wide-sweeping as with the comics, but still gives them the opportunity to do much the same thing.

[Lvl45DM!]

EPIC FINALE
May vs Skye
Mr. Hyde at last!
Inhumans vs SHIELD
Jiaying is so goddamn crazy
Mac. Is. Awesome.
Seriously Mac is awesome
Skye hacks something again! Yayyy
Ginger Ninja was a neat and creepy power
Lincoln is a good guy. Ugh, boring romance with him and Skye ahoy.
FITZSIMMONS TOGETHER AT LAS-oh wait.
OH NO!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
When is season 3 here?

[Giggling Ghast]

Not quite as good as the Season 1 finale, but pretty good all the same.

Good catch by Coulson with that crystal. I think he deserves a hand. :p

So glad to see Agent 33 bite it. By Ward's own hand too! I laughed out loud.

AAAAAAAH FITZ AAAAAH

[Kitten Champion]

Lincoln is a good guy. Ugh, boring romance with him and Skye ahoy.


Ugh, I really hope not. That would make the show way too frickin' CW-ish.

Though on that note...

I hope we get to see more of May's Ex (I'm sorry, I've forgotten his name) next season. Particularly if the next season is going to centre around newly formed Inhumans and adding more Supers to the team, they have every reason to have someone specialized in his extremely tiny yet vastly important niche of psychology to be actively involved.

[Lvl45DM!]

Not quite as good as the Season 1 finale, but pretty good all the same.

Good catch by Coulson with that crystal. I think he deserves a hand. :p

So glad to see Agent 33 bite it. By Ward's own hand too! I laughed out loud.

AAAAAAAH FITZ AAAAAH

1) HAH. Coulson is angry that Mac didn't AXE him first. AWWW YEAH
2)The irony is strong. Ward set it up so that saving Bobbi would kill Hunter. It ended up with Ward killing Kara to try to save her from May.
And it was Simmons so..
AAAAAAAAAAAH SIMMONS AAAAAH!


Ugh, I really hope not. That would make the show way too frickin' CW-ish.


Betcha an internet I'm right :D

[LaZodiac]

EPIC FINALE
May vs Skye
Mr. Hyde at last!
Inhumans vs SHIELD
Jiaying is so goddamn crazy
Mac. Is. Awesome.
Seriously Mac is awesome
Skye hacks something again! Yayyy
Ginger Ninja was a neat and creepy power
Lincoln is a good guy. Ugh, boring romance with him and Skye ahoy.
FITZSIMMONS TOGETHER AT LAS-oh wait.
OH NO!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
When is season 3 here?

Unlikely that Lincoln will be a romantic interest. He wasn't even mentioned as a possible Skye Inhuman Force member.


Not quite as good as the Season 1 finale, but pretty good all the same.

Good catch by Coulson with that crystal. I think he deserves a hand. :p

So glad to see Agent 33 bite it. By Ward's own hand too! I laughed out loud.

AAAAAAAH FITZ AAAAAH

Badum tish, you're bad and should feel bad.

I totally agree though. Seeing Ward just effortless grab "Maye" and fill her with bullets in cold revenge was beautiful. I was half crying from laughter and half from horror because oh my god Bobbi oh no.

Yup! Simmons got all nommed by the black cube.


Ugh, I really hope not. That would make the show way too frickin' CW-ish.

Though on that note...

I hope we get to see more of May's Ex (I'm sorry, I've forgotten his name) next season. Particularly if the next season is going to centre around newly formed Inhumans and adding more Supers to the team, they have every reason to have someone specialized in his extremely tiny yet vastly important niche of psychology to be actively involved.

As mentioned above, it's unlikely. Lincoln wasn't mentioned as a potential member of the Skye Inhuman Force. Now yes, Lincoln might show up again in the future, but I don't think Skye will be gettin' romantic any time soon.

Yeah, I think he'll be showing up more often.

[3SecondCultist]

Wow. There was just so much in those two hours. Where to even start?

I actually really enjoyed the end of Cal's arc. The fact that it was him who got the T.A.H.I.T.I. protocol instead of Ward actually makes far more sense, now that I think about it. He's a much more tragic and ultimately redeemable villain. I hold MacLachlan's acting solely to blame for all of the tears I had watching this. From killing Jiaying, to his last conversation with Skye, and then that heartwrenching innocence as a veterinarian. All of the feels, you guys.

Since I already mentioned Ward... I did suspect that they were going to make him more involved, leading a team of some kind. He's been a lone wolf for a while and it is more his style, but I buy him being invested enough in Kara (and twisted up enough about her death) that he could step forward and actually commit against S.H.I.E.L.D. as a whole. I also liked that they acknowledged just how little a role Hydra has had after the mid-season break, as Coulson / Ultron pretty much wrecked their leadership. They really committed to him being evil, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of that in Season 3.

Now, the Secret Warriors thing. The idea that Skye could be the center of a S.H.I.E.L.D. team comprised of supers is pretty neat, and I imagine with the whole 'fish oil' conundrum, it won't be hard to find people with abilities now. It reminds me a bit of The Flash, and the resident particle accelerator explosion. A bit convenient, but it ultimately makes sense and will take the plot in interesting direction. I like it, but I imagine I'm not the only one worried that by changing the premise of the show like this, it will necessarily overshadow some of the more mundane bad*** types like May, who actually didn't do much this finale other than set up Kara's death. I like Skye as a character, but I don't appreciate the show telling me that - other than Coulson - I should care more about her now because she has superpowers than the rest of the team. They've been relying on that tactic for the last half-season, and it's great, but I don't want her to take too much of the spotlight.

Since I'm mentioning the other characters... I need to talk about Fitz/Simmons. I knew something was going to happen. The universe seems to hate them, and wants to keep them apart. It's not fair, it just isn't. I liked that the writers pulled a bait-and-switch with my expectations: I fully thought Fitz was going to die, and for a heart-stopping moment, I actually thought Gordon had killed him. But to have it turn out that he was okay, and then in the very last seconds of the stinger, having Simmons SWALLOWED BY THE DARK STONE THING was not okay. Really effective jump scare, and I almost shouted at my computer screen.

In conclusion: awesome finale. Lots of stuff. Cool new character arcs. Dear God, what happened to Simmons?

[theNater]

I found it very satisfying when May turned 33's mimicry against her.

I straight-up applauded when Coulson talked Cal down.

The fish oil got an "oh, dear", and the final moment got a "no...no nonononononono!"

Seriously, they just gonna leave it at that over the season break? That's so mean.

[3SecondCultist]

Seriously though... I named this thread mostly as a pun, but it turned out to be quite apropos. :smallfrown:

[huttj509]

I guess Agents of SHIELD counts as phase 2 MCU.

In MCU phase 2, someone loses a hand/arm each movie. Didn't start as intentional reference to Star Wars Episode 5, but became such.



So, in Turn, Turn, Turn we lost Hand. This time we just lost A hand. It's getting better.

[theNater]

I guess Agents of SHIELD counts as phase 2 MCU.

In MCU phase 2, someone loses a hand/arm each movie. Didn't start as intentional reference to Star Wars Episode 5, but became such.



So, in Turn, Turn, Turn we lost Hand. This time we just lost A hand. It's getting better.
It occurs to me that we lost one of the Hand in Daredevil. I didn't put it together with this until just now.

[Kitten Champion]

Betcha an internet I'm right :D

I'm taking this on faith, the AoS writers are among the few on television who don't actively hate me personally enough for that.

Honestly I don't care who Skye's romantically involved with at the end of the day - so long it's not Ward - but they really need more creativity beyond "they're two fairly attractive persons, thus they must fall in love however little chemistry or personality they may have between them" that seems to be the default reasoning for half of the 'ships on television.



As mentioned above, it's unlikely. Lincoln wasn't mentioned as a potential member of the Skye Inhuman Force. Now yes, Lincoln might show up again in the future, but I don't think Skye will be gettin' romantic any time soon.

I'd actually be welcome for Lincoln to to join their Secret Warriors-esque organization, fleshing out his character using some of the stuff hinted at in this finale and giving him a semi-permanent role on the show along with Richards' Mike Peterson/Deathlok. However, until/unless they go that mile and put the effort into making him more than inoffensive and attractive male character #35623-3 the shipping idea is just cringe inducing. The sort of disinterest I had for the first season when Ward/Skye seemed to be a thing they were pushing.




Yeah, I think he'll be showing up more often.

I think they need someone they can talk to with some emotional distance and no ulterior motives, a Wilson from Home Improvement-type deal if you will. I also like that he represents someone more interested in the mental and physical health of his patients than whatever the crisis of the week is they're facing. It creates a conflict which is at once understandable as both sides have sympathetic goals - the good of the team/individuals or the good of the world.





Now, the Secret Warriors thing. The idea that Skye could be the center of a S.H.I.E.L.D. team comprised of supers is pretty neat, and I imagine with the whole 'fish oil' conundrum, it won't be hard to find people with abilities now. It reminds me a bit of The Flash, and the resident particle accelerator explosion. A bit convenient, but it ultimately makes sense and will take the plot in interesting direction. I like it, but I imagine I'm not the only one worried that by changing the premise of the show like this, it will necessarily overshadow some of the more mundane bad*** types like May, who actually didn't do much this finale other than set up Kara's death. I like Skye as a character, but I don't appreciate the show telling me that - other than Coulson - I should care more about her now because she has superpowers than the rest of the team. They've been relying on that tactic for the last half-season, and it's great, but I don't want her to take too much of the spotlight.

Skye's Mary Sue-ish elements were pretty heavy in the finale. I'd imagine her newly-established messianic status (with Raina's prophecy) is particularly goading to those who are on the fence with her character. It's somewhat justified on a meta-level in that so many of the important characters and plot threads were tied to her directly - they were definitely making a theme of child-of-two-worlds with her. Now that in itself could easily be perceived to be Mary Sue-ish, but I think it's more a matter of making the season's arc work more cohesively and fluidly for the writer's ultimate real purpose of this season -- introducing Inhumans and manufacturing them en masse for the MCU.

Though her having superpowers is less the reason for her significance than her being an Inhuman who's SHIELD's only piece on the board for dealing with Inhumans in a non-violent way.

[Giggling Ghast]

Gotta give Mack credit, that was damn quick thinking.

And yes, I shoulda said Simmons.

But you know, Fitz/Simmons was never going to happen. Simmons runs hot and cold in proportion to the amount of danger Fitz is currently in; they could only go on a date if Fitz wore a bomb vest. The universe just saved Fitz from being the recipient of an awkward rejection.

[Douglas]

Good to see Jaiying get her comeuppance and the Inhuman War end promptly. She really was blinded by hate. "Shelter Skye from the world's cruelty"? More like "inflict the world's cruelty on Skye".

I'm guessing the crystals dissolving in the ocean are diluted enough to not actually harm regular humans, but may still trigger Inhuman powers. This would be explained by the latter being their primary intended function, while the former is an incidental side effect.

When I saw Coulson catch the crystal, I immediately thought "wait, won't that petrify him?" A moment later, watching the effect slowly creep up his arm, I was yelling "quick, cut it off!" *AXE* I was feeling a bit proud of myself for such instant and accurate prediction.:smallsmile:

May's deception against 33 was perfect, and the way it tricked Ward into killing her was great.

I think Raina really did turn good in the end. She was always obsessed with supernatural powers, with destiny, and claiming her proper role. She had opinions about what that role should be, but that was secondary to the main concept. Her Inhuman gift finally allowed her to see what her destiny and proper role truly were, and in the end she accepted that and made peace with it. I suspect she went to talk with Jaiying knowing that she would die, and that Skye would turn up at exactly the right time to see it happen.

The Kree rock absorbing Simmons was rather sudden and shocking, and also doesn't make much sense. Why the hell would they put a lock on its container that had anything even resembling a significant chance at being possible to open by accident? It should at the very least have required a key or 10 digit passcode or something, a pair of accidental knocks and jostles should have been nowhere near enough.

[Lvl45DM!]

Good to see Jaiying get her comeuppance and the Inhuman War end promptly. She really was blinded by hate. "Shelter Skye from the world's cruelty"? More like "inflict the world's cruelty on Skye".

I'm guessing the crystals dissolving in the ocean are diluted enough to not actually harm regular humans, but may still trigger Inhuman powers. This would be explained by the latter being their primary intended function, while the former is an incidental side effect.

When I saw Coulson catch the crystal, I immediately thought "wait, won't that petrify him?" A moment later, watching the effect slowly creep up his arm, I was yelling "quick, cut it off!" *AXE* I was feeling a bit proud of myself for such instant and accurate prediction.:smallsmile:

May's deception against 33 was perfect, and the way it tricked Ward into killing her was great.

I think Raina really did turn good in the end. She was always obsessed with supernatural powers, with destiny, and claiming her proper role. She had opinions about what that role should be, but that was secondary to the main concept. Her Inhuman gift finally allowed her to see what her destiny and proper role truly were, and in the end she accepted that and made peace with it. I suspect she went to talk with Jaiying knowing that she would die, and that Skye would turn up at exactly the right time to see it happen.

The Kree rock absorbing Simmons was rather sudden and shocking, and also doesn't make much sense. Why the hell would they put a lock on its container that had anything even resembling a significant chance at being possible to open by accident? It should at the very least have required a key or 10 digit passcode or something, a pair of accidental knocks and jostles should have been nowhere near enough.

Because its a rock? Presumably it was unable the door was unable to be accidentally opened but they didn't know it could push from within. I mean really one can only have as much security as one has foresight

[SaintRidley]

The crystals only harm humans in solid form because they contain the same metal as the diviners - they're melted down and reconstituted diviners, after all. Dissolving in the water will leave the diviner metal at the bottom of the ocean while letting the harmless-to-humans/transformative-to-inhumans terrigen free to be absorbed by other life in the ocean and eventually by humans.

[dehro]

Well.. vampire Jiaying is not at all creepy...:smalltongue:
If 33 and Ward disabled the tracking devices of the quinnjet, how did May and Hunter find it?
glad to see Raina gain a measure of redemption by doing the right thing instead of jumping on a horse and try to avoid her fate. A touch melodrammatic maybe, but well played.
Halfway through the fistfight between Bobbi and Ward, she was perfectly alligned for a punch to the crotch.. why didn't she take it and end the fight, I wonder?:smalltongue:
Why the flipping heck did they move Cal from containment instead of bringing the meds to him? how difficult was his recoveryand rampage to anticipate when he had declared as much to be his intent? Coulson's juggling the idiot ball, which is unlike him.:smallmad:
Oh, look.. Mac sticking around is a plot device, how unexpected :smallamused: Then again, how come the Inhumans thought it was a good idea to have unconscious Skye tag along into combat zone when she's most likely going to turn against them?? why not stick her somewhere safe like the isolated room Cal was kept in?
wha... you're guarding the most prized item on the ship, there's a teleporter on the loose, shots are fired in the adiacent room, clearly indicating an attack, and your first reaction is "let all of us go have a looksie and leave the priceless artifact unattended"??? also, you've got tons of firepower.. why are you giving in to 3?for once, shoot first and ask later seems like a good idea, but no..let's get disarmed by a cornered force with a fraction of our firepower...
oh my... Curly SHIELD mook has had better days.. that's two ladies who've handed him his butt in the same day.. or 3, more accurately.. although, maybe the last two count as 1.
"give me a secure channel"... because taking your cellphone out of your pocket is too much work, even in an emergency.:smallmad:
mmmh, I'm unimpressed by Cal-Hulk..(it's like Kal-El, but slower).. he's moving about like the monster in Frankenstein Jr... I expect him to try putting it on the ritz at any moment.. more seriously, the brilliant acting we've seen so far is becoming a little farcical.
I'm waiting for Mac to go Yippie-Kai-Yay Mother****er! on Jiaying..
or is it more like "I'm just the cook"?
aaand, awesome-Cal is back (it's like Kal-El, but better acted)
ouch.. I have a feeling I know what Bobbi is going to do now :smallfrown:
shucks... I was right.:smallfrown:
ha! double dose of karma for Ward. very good :smallbiggrin:
lol.. Mac just got my vote for best line of the episode... a whole set of them actually, lol..
muahauhahuahuahua.. he found the saw! I love this guy!
ouch.. May just did the modern equivalent to showing her boyfriend's picture..
awww.. getting ****-blocked by Coulson must burn..
Mac.. there are no words.
wait.. did Fitz just outmeme everybody? :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
ouch. good thing Mac didn't let go of the axe.
oooh, is May going on a hunting trip? :smalltongue:
omg.. the HYDRA thugs are laughable.
so.. they did give Cal a free pass after all.. not happy about that. He ought to spend his life in solitary, with occasional visits from Skye for good behaviour.
I'm mildly confused as to how Jiaying is perma-dead now and not ready to respawn somewhere later.
well... maybe getting cockblocked by Coulson wasn't the worst that could happen :smalleek::smalleek: I am starting to think the "rock" is actually sentient and has bided his time, or maybe it's gone into active mode as it sensed the crystals being turned into pills.
Mildly disappointed that we haven't seen May pull a Coulson Vs Garrett style fatality shot at Ward. Maybe from long range.. like he did his dog... now, that would have been a nice touch.

yeah.. this was pretty damn entertaining (not my spoilerbox.. the finale).
had me grinning multiple times, occasionally cringing, but overall I'd say the setting for a next season crawling with Inhumans (and dead bodies) is set.

[toapat]

I'm guessing the crystals dissolving in the ocean are diluted enough to not actually harm regular humans, but may still trigger Inhuman powers. This would be explained by the latter being their primary intended function, while the former is an incidental side effect.


No, they exposited away the reason the crystals were still statuing people when Gonzolas was talking to Skyemom. They melted down the entire diviner, not just the crystal inside it.


Skye should probably take DJ as a first name

[Yana]

Concerning Ward

I'm sorry, but if those thugs are the caliber of minions that Ward is going to have on his team, he may as well just give up. At best, he'll be S3's equivalent of Creel, deadly for the first two episodes and gone afterwards.

Of course he'll find more competent people to work with, but I doubt that he's going to be anything more than a nuisance in the future. I think I'll have to agree with Zodiac and call for his death by head=red mist via Skye. He has officially run out of usefulness to the story in my eyes.

And the rest of the episode(s)

Frankly, I'm surprised that Lincoln didn't attempt to turn on Jiayang when he saw what happened to one of the SHIELD councilors. Sure, it would have been a stupid move and would have gotten him killed, but it's not like there's much to his character atm other than "stand around looking pretty" or "zap the bad guys." That being said, it was a nice touch for the show to cut to him and May beating the crap out of the duplicator when the last time we saw either of them, it implied that a throwdown was about to happen.

Coulson losing his hand was... unexpected and surprisingly graphic for this show. It was a nice touch to have Skye driving Lola at the end since he probably can't until he gets a proper replacement. Maybe Stark has some tech for that... Still, I guess you can't be the Director of SHIELD without losing an extremity, right?

Once again, Kyle McLaughlin completely stole the show with his hammy ways. Whatever horror there may have been had while he was chasing down Fitz and Simmons was completely undercut by his sing-song tone of voice. I'll second what everyone else said about feeling sorry for him having to be the one to kill Jiayang and having to go through the Tahiti protocol afterwards. Having Dr. Winslow state that his office will become a "magical place" was good for a short laugh.

I'm somewhat disappointed that Gordon followed Jiayang so blindly given that he seemed at least partially receptive towards Raina's warnings last week. He was one of the more interesting Inhumans, if only because he's the one we've seen the most of after Skye and Raina. While the pipe through the stomach was a nice touch, I was really hoping for an ax to the back or something a little more brutal for someone who turned out to only be capable of walking in lockstep.

I will miss Raina. She was always useful as a ambiguous, but secondary, villain. Having to either wear that getup or whatever they did to create her character could not have been easy to do however.

And Jemma... poor Jemma. It was over so quickly, I think the only reaction I had time for was a simple "What." I know the show isn't in the habit of killing of their main cast (so far at least), but I hope she isn't dead.

[LaZodiac]

Concerning Ward

I'm sorry, but if those thugs are the caliber of minions that Ward is going to have on his team, he may as well just give up. At best, he'll be S3's equivalent of Creel, deadly for the first two episodes and gone afterwards.

Of course he'll find more competent people to work with, but I doubt that he's going to be anything more than a nuisance in the future. I think I'll have to agree with Zodiac and call for his death by head=red mist via Skye. He has officially run out of usefulness to the story in my eyes.

And the rest of the episode(s)

Frankly, I'm surprised that Lincoln didn't attempt to turn on Jiayang when he saw what happened to one of the SHIELD councilors. Sure, it would have been a stupid move and would have gotten him killed, but it's not like there's much to his character atm other than "stand around looking pretty" or "zap the bad guys." That being said, it was a nice touch for the show to cut to him and May beating the crap out of the duplicator when the last time we saw either of them, it implied that a throwdown was about to happen.

Coulson losing his hand was... unexpected and surprisingly graphic for this show. It was a nice touch to have Skye driving Lola at the end since he probably can't until he gets a proper replacement. Maybe Stark has some tech for that... Still, I guess you can't be the Director of SHIELD without losing an extremity, right?

Once again, Kyle McLaughlin completely stole the show with his hammy ways. Whatever horror there may have been had while he was chasing down Fitz and Simmons was completely undercut by his sing-song tone of voice. I'll second what everyone else said about feeling sorry for him having to be the one to kill Jiayang and having to go through the Tahiti protocol afterwards. Having Dr. Winslow state that his office will become a "magical place" was good for a short laugh.

I'm somewhat disappointed that Gordon followed Jiayang so blindly given that he seemed at least partially receptive towards Raina's warnings last week. He was one of the more interesting Inhumans, if only because he's the one we've seen the most of after Skye and Raina. While the pipe through the stomach was a nice touch, I was really hoping for an ax to the back or something a little more brutal for someone who turned out to only be capable of walking in lockstep.

I will miss Raina. She was always useful as a ambiguous, but secondary, villain. Having to either wear that getup or whatever they did to create her character could not have been easy to do however.

And Jemma... poor Jemma. It was over so quickly, I think the only reaction I had time for was a simple "What." I know the show isn't in the habit of killing of their main cast (so far at least), but I hope she isn't dead.


I think Ward is definitely going to TRY and make his loser skin heads become stronger. My guess is he'll get some InHumans so he can fight on equal ground with both Shield and Skye Team Six. I think Ward Hydra will last until the finale or close to it, where they finally take him down (through earthquakes to the face).

I actually like that Fitz is at the end of the day the one responsible for Gordon's death, as sad as it was because he IS such a good guy. It was Fitz' device that trapped him, and it was his pipe that Gordon ported into. Poor guy, dead because he's just a consumate servant.

Yeah, gonna miss Raina too. She was cool. I also don't think Simmons is dead (I also agree with the theory that the Black Stone, instead of BEING the Kree Sentinal, instead turns people into it. Simmons will have to deal with the fact that she is now "powered" and arguably an Inhuman, and deal with her own fears about it and her now inbuilt desire to kill Inhumans.)

[dehro]

my guess is that in next season's opener, she'll appear as nothing happened, having been spat out by the black goop... whether she'll remember it happening or not is anyone's guess.
actually, I think that's how a lesser show would handle this.. AoS has the habit of not leaving their audience in the dark for too long, so we'll probably see more than that happen on screen.
so basically I just contradicted myself.
I'm useless :smallfrown:

[Solamnicknight]

I agree with the theory that Simmons will get turned into a Kree Sentry, would have plenty of irony to it since she was so worried about the inhumans being a threat. Which they kinda were due to Jiaying. I liked that Cal got a nice ending and is now a jolly veterinarian, though it is sad he'll never remember Skye. I also agree that Ward is probably going to be killed by Skye. Anyone else wondering when Coulson is going to get some sort cyborg arm? I mean the man has access to the Deathlok tech, so why not get a cool robot arm? Mac was particularity awesome in this episode as well. Looks like Lola is fixed too. Though I think Bobbi deserves a ton of credit, she never cracked under Ward and Kara's torture and took that bullet for Lance. Those scenes were hard to watch, the level of gore and violence reminded me of Daredevil quite a bit. That scene with the needles 'shudder' :smalleek:

[LordRahl6]

There was a LOT to this episode. First Jaiying's actions left me quoting the title of this thread "OH THE INHUMANITY":smalltongue: Glad we got to see both her and Cal powers as well.

Now in regards to the new project is it Secret Warriors or Secret Avengers?:smallconfused: Also noted the designs for the new Bus.:smallwink:

As much as I like Brett Dalton's range in acting abilities, Ward's rise as head of HYDRA and demand for closure with regards to Kara may well take the character down a path where they might as well kill him. Which is disappointing for the breakout villain.:smallfrown:

Also regarding breakout villains, Raina's curtain call was PERFECT. She not only realizes that she can't have everthing, but heroically sacrifices herself to prove a point to Daisy "Skye" Johnson.:smallbiggrin:

Finally, the Fish Oil bit was great it that left something open that reminded me of the Hulk MCU movie's Cameo of Stan Lee.:smallwink: The Closing scene was great with Fitz asking Simmons on date. (like who didn't know that wasn't going to happen:smallamused:) but then Simmons gets DEVOURED(ENCASED?) in the Kree Artifact.:smalleek:

[Helanna]

Holy crap they packed a ton of stuff into this!

My hatred for Ward just intensified even further. I couldn't watch the needle scenes. Ugh. :smalleek: So am I a terrible person for laughing when he shot Kara? Haha sucker, didn't see that coming didya? Serves you right for trying to shoot May.

I am very happy May finally seems to be recovering from her trauma in Bahrain, and I hope her ex sticks around. I like him, and I'll root for them to get back together.

I've been fairly ambivalent about Mac up until now, but he really brought me around this episode. First with his quick thinking to save Coulson, and then with one of the best lines of the episode: "No! We are never opening that thing! Not in a thousand years!" Good job Mac! Finally someone with some common sense is in charge of the highly dangerous alien artifacts. :smallbiggrin:

(Other best line of the episode: "Science, beeyatch.")

Not that it necessarily helped much, because holy crap where did Simmons go? Aw man, I was so close to my happy Fitzsimmons ending. :smallfrown: I knew it. I knew it wasn't going to end so neatly.

And finally Ward: C'mon Ward we just got rid of Hydra and you have to go and pull a stunt like this? :smallannoyed: Jokes aside though, I'm really looking forward to seeing him next season. It feels like they're setting him up to be the main villain. First he was just a tool of Garrett, then he was out on his own but didn't really care that much about Shield except inasmuch as he still cared for Skye. Now he's out for blood and I can't wait to see how that's going to turn out. I think he could make a really good antagonist - you've got the greater Shield/Hydra conflict going again, plus a much more personal vendetta on both sides. Not to mention the whole Inhumans thing. Jeez, this show has gotten really complicated. I love it.





Since I'm mentioning the other characters... I need to talk about Fitz/Simmons. I knew something was going to happen. The universe seems to hate them, and wants to keep them apart. It's not fair, it just isn't. I liked that the writers pulled a bait-and-switch with my expectations: I fully thought Fitz was going to die, and for a heart-stopping moment, I actually thought Gordon had killed him. But to have it turn out that he was okay, and then in the very last seconds of the stinger, having Simmons SWALLOWED BY THE DARK STONE THING was not okay. Really effective jump scare, and I almost shouted at my computer screen.

In conclusion: awesome finale. Lots of stuff. Cool new character arcs. Dear God, what happened to Simmons?

I also thought Gordon had killed Fitz, and I'm so very, very relieved he didn't. Fitz is probably my favorite character, and I've been expecting him (or less likely, Simmons) to die since the beginning of Season 1. So sure, terrible things keep happening to them, but as long as they both pull through alive and together at the end I'll be okay with it.

[lt_murgen]

Got a new idea for a Spinoff:

Agent May: Bikinis and Barettas.

[TheEmerged]

Okay, am I the only one that liked this? Turns out the actress (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2151188/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t23) has been working as a stuntwoman for a while - most notably as Raven in the last couple of X-Movies and as Bobbi a few times this season.

EDIT: ooo, she also did stunt work with Agent Carter, didn't notice that at first.

[Palanan]

I'm surprised only one person has commented on how Fitz called Gordon "biotch."

:smalltongue:

Okay, is there some in-joke or connection with the fish-oil supplements?

I figured that was just a way for marine contaminants to find their way into human bodies, thus triggering any latent Inhumans, but is there some other reference? I don't read comics these days, so no idea whether this shows up somewhere.

The actress/stuntwoman is plenty easy on the eyes, I was just disappointed with her abilities being such a close copy of a longstanding mutant from the comics.

Also, it took Lincoln forever to figure out that zapping the original would take out the copies. Come on, that's Hivequeen 101.

I'm glad we'll be seeing more of Ward, although a little ambivalent that he's refounding HYDRA.

From the institution's perspective he's a terrible choice, since he never had any allegiance to HYDRA overall, just Garrett--and Garrett wasn't exactly a true believer, as I believe he said himself.

Although Ward rebuilding HYDRA, or at least a little baby HYDRA-head, does have a nice touch of irony to it, since he promised not two episodes ago that his HYDRA days were done and gone. Ahh, Ward, you sly dog-shooting dog.

[3SecondCultist]

C'mon Ward we just got rid of Hydra and you have to go and pull a stunt like this? :smallannoyed: Jokes aside though, I'm really looking forward to seeing him next season. It feels like they're setting him up to be the main villain. First he was just a tool of Garrett, then he was out on his own but didn't really care that much about Shield except inasmuch as he still cared for Skye. Now he's out for blood and I can't wait to see how that's going to turn out. I think he could make a really good antagonist - you've got the greater Shield/Hydra conflict going again, plus a much more personal vendetta on both sides. Not to mention the whole Inhumans thing. Jeez, this show has gotten really complicated. I love it.


I mentioned this earlier, but I actually think they can do a bit more with the character than they've done this season. For the most part, he's been in the background, doing evil things offscreen. The murder of his parents and brother, for instance, was a huge part of the character, as he finally cut loose the majority of his emotional baggage and was 'free', in a sense. Looking back, the idea that he would choose Hydra yet again isn't really all that surprising, considering the first decision Ward makes after killing the rest of the Wards was to rejoin Hydra under Whitehall. So far, he has always found a way to gravitate back to the intelligence community that he knows and is comfortable with. The only difference this time, is that he's not answering to anybody else anymore. He's out for "closure" against S.H.I.E.L.D. as a whole, since May and/or Hunter aren't readily available as targets. I'm going to have to agree with people's assessment, though: Ward is going to become a more important villain in Season 3, and then they're going to kill him off for good in one of the finales. And I even predicted it, two months ago!


One of my thoughts regarding the end of this season will be setting up Ward as the replacement for Whitehall / Pierce, taking over the North American branch of Hydra and coming back in Season 3 as one of the central Big Bads.

Because as interesting as his actions have been thus far, he's a character who has thus far been defined by his relationships with Garrett and later Skye. I kind of want to see him step into the spotlight as a baddie in his own right and go head to head with Team Coulson, and him filling the current Hydra power vacuum would be an interesting place to take his character. Actually taking power for himself and looking for revenge on the heroes would be cool (and maybe kill him off at the end of Season 3?)

At this point, he's dropped any pretense of trying to redeem himself with his former team. Now, we're going to see Ward in a position of devoting even more time and energy to destroying or subverting S.H.I.E.L.D., as opposed to just escaping or surviving like before. This will make him a bigger threat in Season 3.

[Kitten Champion]

My guess for Ward in season 3 --

Hydra doesn't fit Ward, who is more of a soldier than megalomaniac and was never especially concerned with the cause of spreading tyranny as he was fulfilling his perceived obligations.

My guess -- he'll use the remnants of Hydra's resources and remaining man-power to gather and form the Serpent Society. An MU staple as far as proactive villain teams goes, which come with plenty of MCU-friendly characters available for adaption with reasonable-on-a-television-budget-tevel powers. Which would make him... Sidewinder I guess.

[LaZodiac]

Okay, am I the only one that liked this? Turns out the actress (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2151188/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t23) has been working as a stuntwoman for a while - most notably as Raven in the last couple of X-Movies and as Bobbi a few times this season.

EDIT: ooo, she also did stunt work with Agent Carter, didn't notice that at first.

Yeah. I like, actually kind of hope she's okay and might redeem herself like Lincoln. If only because "Quake, Lightningbolt, and Ginger Ninja" are kind of great code names.


My guess for Ward in season 3 --

Hydra doesn't fit Ward, who is more of a soldier than megalomaniac and was never especially concerned with the cause of spreading tyranny as he was fulfilling his perceived obligations.

My guess -- he'll use the remnants of Hydra's resources and remaining man-power to gather and form the Serpent Society. An MU staple as far as proactive villain teams goes, which come with plenty of MCU-friendly characters available for adaption with reasonable-on-a-television-budget-tevel powers. Which would make him... Sidewinder I guess.

Huh. That could work. I don't know much about the Serpent Society though. It'd make sense though, I doubt he'll be working them up to believe that whole "we are a multi headed beast" type thing. They are a snake and he is the head and you will ****ing listen to him or he'll smash you to death.

[BRC]

Let's start with the Nitpicks

Why did Jaiying bring Skye to the carrier in the first place? (this was probably covered, but I must have missed it)

Why was Gordon going along with Jai Ying's scheme? Personal loyalty I guess.

Why didn't Gordon just tele-grab Mac, Drop him in the ocean, then teleport back into the room?
Alternatively, why didn't Gordon get a gun and shoot Mac. Or send in some Ginger Ninjas with guns. They had large numbers of both Guns and Ginger Ninjas. They had a whole aircraft carrier full of guns. When Ginger Ninja duplicated, she made new clothes. Can she not make new guns? If so, why not have a pile of guns for her duplicates to carry.

A sniper round, from that distance, would have punched clean through the chair and Bobbie to hit Hunter.



Then Thoughts

A+ episode in my mind. As much as AoS drags and stumbles, it really knows how to hit those big moments.

Confirmed that Ward killed the dogs. They're setting Ward up as a big bad, which I like. Ever since he grew that stubble (I see you there TV Tropes), he's had plenty of charisma for a main villain. I hope they don't make his motivation "REVENGE ON SHIELD FOR KILLING MY GIRLFRIEND...WHO I KILLED"

But yeah. An excellent show. The Fish Oil is probably there as a Civil War setup. Random Inhumans will activate around the world (Does the fish-oil process make it non-lethal to humans now? Otherwise you'd think they would perform a recall) so there can be plenty of "PERSON HAS POWERZ NOW!" going on.



As for Simmons. If she's dead, it's what I call a "Whedon Death". Drama for the sake of drama, no dignity or anything for the characters. The other characters do what they would have done anyway, but now they're sad. If she's not dead, then that's comic books.

[dehro]

Then Thoughts

A+ episode in my mind. As much as AoS drags and stumbles, it really knows how to hit those big moments.

Confirmed that Ward killed the dogs. They're setting Ward up as a big bad, which I like. Ever since he grew that stubble (I see you there TV Tropes), he's had plenty of charisma for a main villain. I hope they don't make his motivation "REVENGE ON SHIELD FOR KILLING MY GIRLFRIEND...WHO I KILLED"

But yeah. An excellent show. The Fish Oil is probably there as a Civil War setup. Random Inhumans will activate around the world (Does the fish-oil process make it non-lethal to humans now? Otherwise you'd think they would perform a recall) so there can be plenty of "PERSON HAS POWERZ NOW!" going on.



As for Simmons. If she's dead, it's what I call a "Whedon Death". Drama for the sake of drama, no dignity or anything for the characters. The other characters do what they would have done anyway, but now they're sad. If she's not dead, then that's comic books.
[/QUOTE]

The girlfriend thing is probably going to be waved around as an excuse, but by now we know how empty Ward's words are. He'll use any excuse to do what he wants and justify his actions. I would find it highly ironic, but also a bit lame, if he swallowed some pills and gained a power..
Simmons is not dead.

[BRC]

Then Thoughts

A+ episode in my mind. As much as AoS drags and stumbles, it really knows how to hit those big moments.

Confirmed that Ward killed the dogs. They're setting Ward up as a big bad, which I like. Ever since he grew that stubble (I see you there TV Tropes), he's had plenty of charisma for a main villain. I hope they don't make his motivation "REVENGE ON SHIELD FOR KILLING MY GIRLFRIEND...WHO I KILLED"

But yeah. An excellent show. The Fish Oil is probably there as a Civil War setup. Random Inhumans will activate around the world (Does the fish-oil process make it non-lethal to humans now? Otherwise you'd think they would perform a recall) so there can be plenty of "PERSON HAS POWERZ NOW!" going on.



As for Simmons. If she's dead, it's what I call a "Whedon Death". Drama for the sake of drama, no dignity or anything for the characters. The other characters do what they would have done anyway, but now they're sad. If she's not dead, then that's comic books.


The girlfriend thing is probably going to be waved around as an excuse, but by now we know how empty Ward's words are. He'll use any excuse to do what he wants and justify his actions. I would find it highly ironic, but also a bit lame, if he swallowed some pills and gained a power..
Simmons is not dead.[/QUOTE]


So previously HYDRA's deal was "The World needs somebody to rule it"
Now is it basically just Grant Ward's personal vendetta squad? United under the banner of "Grant ward can beat us up"

Or are they going to become a more traditional Supervillain outfit, Motivated by money and power. From the looks of things Ward's Hydra is going to be more crime syndicate than paramillitary global conspiracy. They've established that between SHIELD and the Avengers, HYDRA is basically gone. Right now he's got himself and three thugs.

Presumably there are more HYDRA goons out there (Decapitating strikes tend to leave a lot of lower-ranked leftovers), plus some Assets he could seize.

[LaZodiac]

So previously HYDRA's deal was "The World needs somebody to rule it"
Now is it basically just Grant Ward's personal vendetta squad? United under the banner of "Grant ward can beat us up"

Or are they going to become a more traditional Supervillain outfit, Motivated by money and power. From the looks of things Ward's Hydra is going to be more crime syndicate than paramillitary global conspiracy. They've established that between SHIELD and the Avengers, HYDRA is basically gone. Right now he's got himself and three thugs.

Presumably there are more HYDRA goons out there (Decapitating strikes tend to leave a lot of lower-ranked leftovers), plus some Assets he could seize.


That's why someone else in this thread theorized that he'll actually make "Hydra" be the Serpent Society or something. I don't know how they are in comics, but they certainly sound like a more street level group of thugs.

Either way yeah, Hydra, or what remains of it's blown out decaying corpse, is a bunch of skin heads that follow Ward because he'll basically rip their faces off if they don't.

[BRC]

That's why someone else in this thread theorized that he'll actually make "Hydra" be the Serpent Society or something. I don't know how they are in comics, but they certainly sound like a more street level group of thugs.

Either way yeah, Hydra, or what remains of it's blown out decaying corpse, is a bunch of skin heads that follow Ward because he'll basically rip their faces off if they don't.


If you cut off one head...we'll go home and drink beer or something.

Unless you want to lead Hydra, because you beat up Ward, and we were only following him because he could beat us up...no? You sure? Okay, just checking.

[LaZodiac]

If you cut off one head...we'll go home and drink beer or something.

Unless you want to lead Hydra, because you beat up Ward, and we were only following him because he could beat us up...no? You sure? Okay, just checking.


That's beautiful, and I kind of feel that's how it's going to go down. Skye Team Six is gonna take down any InHumans on Ward's team (because you know he will get some, considering what all is going on), the rest of them will scatter realizing that they've been working with someone so crazy it actually causes them to become better people, and then Skye turns Ward into red paste with her earthquake powers. The order of events can switch around but either way, would be cool and great.

[BRC]

That's beautiful, and I kind of feel that's how it's going to go down. Skye Team Six is gonna take down any InHumans on Ward's team (because you know he will get some, considering what all is going on), the rest of them will scatter realizing that they've been working with someone so crazy it actually causes them to become better people, and then Skye turns Ward into red paste with her earthquake powers. The order of events can switch around but either way, would be cool and great.


Nah, Ward's going to linger. Brett Dalton has charisma, and Ward makes an excellent villain. Plus, HYDRA makes a good enemy for SHIELD, so its in the show's best interests to have him stick around, if only to sign checks for the goons May beats up.

Speaking of Charismatic Villains, points to Agents of SHIELD for having everybody remember that Ward is terrible. Unlike Arrow, which keeps finding reasons to have an unapologetic mass murderer hang around with the heroes.

[LaZodiac]

Nah, Ward's going to linger. Brett Dalton has charisma, and Ward makes an excellent villain. Plus, HYDRA makes a good enemy for SHIELD, so its in the show's best interests to have him stick around, if only to sign checks for the goons May beats up.

Speaking of Charismatic Villains, points to Agents of SHIELD for having everybody remember that Ward is terrible. Unlike Arrow, which keeps finding reasons to have an unapologetic mass murderer hang around with the heroes.


Kind of wish you didn't say unapologetic so I could say "but then Arrow wouldn't have any friends".

But yeah, I'm REALLY glad that no one acts stupid around Ward. Skye plugged him in the back first chance she really had when they met back up, I'm sure Maye would of made sure to waste him if they didn't have to rush to save Bobbi. Coulson knew trusting him was dangerous and though he trusted Agent 33, he knew better then to actually trust Ward proper.

The only reason I don't think Ward will survive past season 3's finale is because I think Season 3 might be the end of the show. But we'll see!

[Kitten Champion]

It just occurred to me, at the end of season one of AoS we had a shattered and leaderless SHIELD that had been broken over the course of AoS - with the most serious blow landing in The Winter Soldier - and the last remaining major character from the organization being sent on an arc to rebuild it from the scrap heap in a manner similar to but substantially different from its predecessor in the upcoming season.

Now, at the end of season two of AoS we have a shattered and leaderless HYDRA that had been broken over the course of AoS - with the most serious blow landing in Age of Ultron - and the last remaining major character from the organization being sent on an arc to rebuild it from the scrap heap in a manner similar to but substantially different than its predecessor in the upcoming season.

[dehro]

Point of order. The biggest blow to rebuilt hydra was landed on AoS, when Coulson tricked them into killing all but two of the heads, which were then cut off during the movie, once they were already in disarray and a minor inconvenience compared to how strong they were in the first movie

[Dilvish]

Regarding the finale and season 3, won't Coulson and company think there is something fishy about the sudden appearance of all those in-humans?

[Pex]

Nitpick: Bad call on the writers to bash Fox News like that. It's typical Hollywood fashion that was uncalled for and broke the illusion of the story to reveal it's just a television show. It literally did ruin the rest of the show for me because I was no longer in the universe. I don't watch Fox News myself or any cable news network, but the inference is obvious. Now I hate Mac with a passion and am upset he didn't quit after all and will be back. The character is totally ruined for me.

Thanks guys!

[Rakaydos]

Nitpick: Bad call on the writers to bash Fox News like that. It's typical Hollywood fashion that was uncalled for and broke the illusion of the story to reveal it's just a television show. It literally did ruin the rest of the show for me because I was no longer in the universe. I don't watch Fox News myself or any cable news network, but the inference is obvious. Now I hate Mac with a passion and am upset he didn't quit after all and will be back. The character is totally ruined for me.

Thanks guys!

It felt fine to me. hasnt Fox, CNN and MSNBC sshown up in various "breaking news" newscasts in MCU? why should alluding to them be any different than actually showing them?

[LaZodiac]

Regarding the finale and season 3, won't Coulson and company think there is something fishy about the sudden appearance of all those in-humans?

Stop, what you are doing is wrong.

(secretly I love it)


It felt fine to me. hasnt Fox, CNN and MSNBC sshown up in various "breaking news" newscasts in MCU? why should alluding to them be any different than actually showing them?

I think he's being sarcastic by that last comment but I'm not sure if it's just noting sarcasm for the thanks, or for the whole thing. I can see why he's concerned, but at the same time I think it's OKAY, since it shows that the world is more "real". Also, all the MCU stuff takes place in OUR world. They fight in New York and stuff. This isn't like say, the DC stuff suddenly referencing say, Bill o Railley, despite their world explicitly not being the real world.

[Kitten Champion]

Well, on the one hand, for a decisively apolitical prime time network SF/techno-thriller/Superhero show to pull an uncharacteristically (if small) political-ish jab at something or someone real, that's probably going to raise some eyebrows in certain circles. On the other hand they made an entire blockbuster movie about Captain bloody America fighting a group of comic villains that are a very thinly disguised allegory for the American post-9/11 Neoconservative movement, so perhaps that hand has already been tipped, maybe?

Still, Mack is, at least in principle, a human being. At least that's what we're to assume based on the laws of fiction, rather than a character written by writers. I've personally heard more than my fair share of similar quips in my day-to-day life for me to feel like the scene was somehow contrived to make the remark or that it's somehow deeply incongruous with the character in any way as he's thus far been presented.

He didn't pull out his manifesto or start asking if Skye had found Jesus, it was a tension defusing joke to someone he had been - at least until really recently - on amiable terms with as a coworker.

[LaZodiac]

He didn't pull out his manifesto or start asking if Skye had found Jesus, it was tension defusing joke to someone he had been - at least until really recently - on amiable terms with as a coworker.

Yeah that's the thing. Between calling Fiz "Turbo" and Skye "Tremors", it's clear Mack's actually kind of a goofy guy behind his "can bench press fifty men" appearance. So think of it as less of a dig, and more of him diffusing the tension with some good ole humour.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Live Reactions time not in any order,


Holy Crud, Jiaying is a vampire...HOLY CRAP SHE IS MORBIUS FROM THE OLD SPIDERMAN CARTOON, and she is officially Magneto.

No really, She is Magneto.

We have two plots going on here, Inhumans vs SHIELD, and then Ward, cool I like that.

Uh Coulson, IS IT REALLY smart to Interrogate an insane dude while in the same room as he is, and it goes about as right as you would think it does, of course Coulson talks Cal down, and really cements..That Jiaying is Magneto.

That..is legitimately awesome, this is why Coulson is awesome. Violence is the last solution he goes with, I LIKE THAT.

Whoah...Ward Killed 33, season 3 is going to involve him going ALL Fou-lu(break of fire 4) up in this place


"It is a big ship, and there is poor signage"

HAHA!


Science...BIATCH!
BAHAHAHAHAHA Fitz you are the best, You so White and Nerdy.

I expected...Jiaying was going to say "Join me, and together we can overthrow Thanos and rule the Galaxy as Mother and Daughter"


OH ouch...Gordon..did you never learn to WATCH where you bamf too? Man Nightcrawler would never have made that mistake.

and..wow..Psycho Dad..killed Evil Mom.

You know in retrospect..They did it again. They set up Cal as a completely evil amoral badguy never made us question that..until they were ready to pull that thread..and show that he is not completely Evil.


"I thought you would be perfect..you are far more interesting than that"

Well Played Writers, well played.

So Ward is setting up Hydra, so he can have revenge against SHIELD. I wonder if he isn't going to end up with some Meta-Human powers or Tech in him. He is below the weight class of his Arch Enemy now..since Skye could turn him into bits of salsa with little effort now.

and Cal..ends up as a Vet, I like that. I actually feel bad for him in retrospect. All he wanted was his family back..and Jiyang Manipulated the heck out of him, and turned him into a monster.

And now Skye might have her own team.

I would love for that story to be the Inhuman's movie, and for season 3 to not have her. Simply because her "story" as an Agent is done, instead focus on the rest, with Simmons getting nommed by mysterious alien artifact they can explore other things.

[MikelaC1]

This is the one thing about this finale that I didn't like. A whole case full of a extremely toxic substance gets pushed into the ocean, and they DONT organize some sort of mission to recover or at least contain it? No, lets let it sit around for any old bigbad to get it, or in this case, have it leak into the biosphere.

[lt_murgen]

This is the one thing about this finale that I didn't like. A whole case full of a extremely toxic substance gets pushed into the ocean, and they DONT organize some sort of mission to recover or at least contain it? No, lets let it sit around for any old bigbad to get it, or in this case, have it leak into the biosphere.

That bothered me too. Of course,

if the carrier was travelling while the action and recovery was going on, it is possible that several hours passed before they managed enough recovery to consider going after it. Then, then would need to get a sub flown in and then find the wreckage.

It is possible that several days passed before such a recovery could be made. By then, the crystals may have dissolved into the water.

[Olinser]

This is the one thing about this finale that I didn't like. A whole case full of a extremely toxic substance gets pushed into the ocean, and they DONT organize some sort of mission to recover or at least contain it? No, lets let it sit around for any old bigbad to get it, or in this case, have it leak into the biosphere.

Not sure what makes you think they could have possibly found it even if they looked for it.

'A whole case' is an infinitesimal speck in the middle of an ocean, and especially at the speed a carrier typically travels, there is no way to pinpoint where they lost something that small (not to mention current would carry it a pretty fair distance pretty quickly). Current authorities regularly have trouble locating entire sunken ships or crashed airplanes even with a GPS fix of their last surface location.

There is simply no realistic way to recover the contents of the case, and attempting to do so would just waste a whole lot of valuable time.

[Soepvork]

'A whole case' is an infinitesimal speck in the middle of an ocean, and especially at the speed a carrier typically travels, there is no way to pinpoint where they lost something that small (not to mention current would carry it a pretty fair distance pretty quickly).

Wasnt the case marked with a whole quinjet? Still no trivial task to find, but more manageable than just a case.

[3SecondCultist]

Wasnt the case marked with a whole quinjet? Still no trivial task to find, but more manageable than just a case.

Olinser is right on this one. People do have trouble locating entire ships, and a quinjet is nowhere near that big. The Iliad was moving at the time, which means they likely won't have a precise location of where the quinjet actually went overboard, making it even harder to find. Consider at the time that pretty much the entire crew was still dealing with the threat on board, so it's not like everyone's eyes were glued to the monitors at the time anyway.

I have an unrelated question, and maybe somebody picked this up. Between "Scars" and "SOS", did the show actually reveal where Afterlife is located? They seem to get there and back fairly quickly, but they are in quinjets so that likely doesn't mean a whole lot. This is more out of curiosity than anything else, I was waiting to see if it was actually in North America or something.

[dehro]

Olinser is right on this one. People do have trouble locating entire ships, and a quinjet is nowhere near that big. The Iliad was moving at the time, which means they likely won't have a precise location of where the quinjet actually went overboard, making it even harder to find. Consider at the time that pretty much the entire crew was still dealing with the threat on board, so it's not like everyone's eyes were glued to the monitors at the time anyway.

I have an unrelated question, and maybe somebody picked this up. Between "Scars" and "SOS", did the show actually reveal where Afterlife is located? They seem to get there and back fairly quickly, but they are in quinjets so that likely doesn't mean a whole lot. This is more out of curiosity than anything else, I was waiting to see if it was actually in North America or something.

since Jiaying was involved I'm guessing China, but I don't think we were ever told

[toapat]

I have an unrelated question, and maybe somebody picked this up. Between "Scars" and "SOS", did the show actually reveal where Afterlife is located? They seem to get there and back fairly quickly, but they are in quinjets so that likely doesn't mean a whole lot. This is more out of curiosity than anything else, I was waiting to see if it was actually in North America or something.

i think Afterlife is the town that Jaiying vamp'd in china. Its remote enough to at least not have avalanches register as a concern to the nearest government which means definitely not close to the the ring of fire.

[3SecondCultist]

i think Afterlife is the town that Jaiying vamp'd in china. Its remote enough to at least not have avalanches register as a concern to the nearest government which means definitely not close to the the ring of fire.

I was thinking about this as well, and it certainly makes sense. Furthermore, it's implied throughout Season 2 that the Playground is on - or at least reasonably near - the west coast of the US, making a trip by quinjet much more credible. That could also mean the Iliad has been on the Pacific this entire time, which makes sense, given the shot of the bottom of the ocean seems 'warmer'. Again, this doesn't really matter all that much, I'm just curious.

[Olinser]

i think Afterlife is the town that Jaiying vamp'd in china. Its remote enough to at least not have avalanches register as a concern to the nearest government which means definitely not close to the the ring of fire.

Well remember, in the comics the Inhumans had that 'bubble' around their city.

You could easily handwave it being located pretty much anywhere if you add in 'Oh X Inhuman's power prevents anybody from noticing anything unusual for X miles around the area', or something like that.

But given the scenery it kind of looked to me like it was supposed to be located somewhere in the Himalayas. The range is extremely extensive, and especially since they look to be surrounded by mountains, there are plenty of areas in that range where small towns the size of Afterlife could be concealed with ease.

[theNater]

People can and will do stupid things out of stubborn pride...
Stupid things like standing up to a superpowered alien (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dapip0EHYMI)? Is it your position that the old man in that clip was stupid and wrong, because he was endangering himself for the sake of pride? If not, what's the exchange rate? How much pride and how much safety have to be on the line for choosing pride over safety to be stupid?


SHIELD works best in anonymity.
Y'know, I keep wanting to say that the secrecy ship has sailed(and crashed into the Potomac, three times over), but the show apparently thinks it's still feasible. So, okay.


The hunting was never obsessive, they didn't go scour maternity wards of the world to intercept inhumans at birth.
Superpowers are rarely present at birth in the Marvel Universe, and I think it's unheard of in the MCU. Scouring maternity wards would be pointless.


They simply reacted to strange events and people flagged by the news or cops.
If they've always acted quickly it's because if they didn't, people got hurt, or maybe someone else beat them to it.
The obsession comes in what seems to me to be an overreaction to those strange events. They don't just make a note of it, they dive in and hunt down the participants. There's a very "we must know who they are and, above all, what they can do (https://youtu.be/nbNcULQFojc?t=18)" feel to the preventative indexing.


Accepting it or not, definitely was Afterlife's call to make...
Just to be clear, would you have accepted it as reasonable if instead of the call to arms, they'd called for SHIELD to go away and leave them alone? Decided to try to fend for themselves for as long as they could?

[dehro]

Just to be clear, would you have accepted it as reasonable if instead of the call to arms, they'd called for SHIELD to go away and leave them alone? Decided to try to fend for themselves for as long as they could?

I'm a sales rep... when I go to a prospective client, I have a pricelist and a discretionary percentage of discount I can offer... besides the discount, there are further options to sweaten the deal and a host of reasons I can bring to the table why it would be of mutual interest to make said deal.
I open the transaction handing over the pricelist.. the buyer says he wants 50% discount.. then we go back and forth until we agree on what the discount will be.
Gonzales came in with what was a reasonable argument to why he gave the full pricelist. If both parties had wanted a transaction/agreement, Jiaying would have countered saying "we don't like it.. it would be best if you just left us all alone".. and then both parties could have taken stock and revised their proposals until they either found an agreement or agreed that an agreement couldn't be reached. Sometime along the back and forth, one or both parties could have decided to go for a more direct approach.
Jiaying nuked his face instead of considering the proposal, and given how she'd juiced up Cal well before the quinnjets landed, it is clear that she was dealing in bad faith. but then, we already knew she would, because if her strategy had not been planned well in advance and her decision had not already been made, Raina could never have foreseen the course events would have taken

[Kato]

Wow you guys, how much stuff do I need to read up on? :smalltongue:


I'll try to stay short. Overall, it was pretty cool. But I think I have one major complaint: Jiaying. Not only did we only now get the reveal of her being... well, not exactly Rogue but apparently close enough, but also the "all the evil Cal did was her fault"? I mean, I liked Cal well enough in this - actually, I really liked him and I'm glad he got a happy ending - but somehow the whole thing around them seems rushed, unless I missed the setup or something... There's a difference between trying to protect your people and mass murdering normal humans. I mean, it's not terrible but it bothers me.

I'd laugh at Ward killing 33 but then 33 didn't really deserve it... she was probably pretty much lost to becoming good again but.. still. Still not sure what is wrong in Ward's head, as in, what the eff is his motivation?! New Hydra will probably be a joke compared to the old one, but we'll see...

Phil's hand... eh, he'll manage without.

The case of crystals... I'm a bit skeptical about it being hard to retrieve. And even if not, don't people test this stuff? Wouldn't it kill people and thus be recalled? Doesn't sound like a legit plan to make abunch of Inhumans...

Not... sure what's up with Simmons? I thought the stuff was anti-Inhuman weaponry. Did I miss something? And how the eff did it get out again?

I'm actually a bit sad to see Gordon go. I thought he was a decent enough guy but oh well... and, I almost can't believe I'm saying this, Reina. So she grew a conscience just to get offed? I guess being good doesn't pay in the long run...

Overall... good finale, possibly even great, but I just felt a bunch of things about Mom could have been handled better. And maybe the run time was a bit too long. Like the Ward/Bobby subplot could have been shorter... or part of another episode entirely. Or maybe cut completely.

[Joran]

Wow you guys, how much stuff do I need to read up on? :smalltongue:


I'll try to stay short. Overall, it was pretty cool. But I think I have one major complaint: Jiaying. Not only did we only now get the reveal of her being... well, not exactly Rogue but apparently close enough, but also the "all the evil Cal did was her fault"? I mean, I liked Cal well enough in this - actually, I really liked him and I'm glad he got a happy ending - but somehow the whole thing around them seems rushed, unless I missed the setup or something... There's a difference between trying to protect your people and mass murdering normal humans. I mean, it's not terrible but it bothers me.

I'd laugh at Ward killing 33 but then 33 didn't really deserve it... she was probably pretty much lost to becoming good again but.. still. Still not sure what is wrong in Ward's head, as in, what the eff is his motivation?! New Hydra will probably be a joke compared to the old one, but we'll see...

Phil's hand... eh, he'll manage without.

The case of crystals... I'm a bit skeptical about it being hard to retrieve. And even if not, don't people test this stuff? Wouldn't it kill people and thus be recalled? Doesn't sound like a legit plan to make abunch of Inhumans...

Not... sure what's up with Simmons? I thought the stuff was anti-Inhuman weaponry. Did I miss something? And how the eff did it get out again?

I'm actually a bit sad to see Gordon go. I thought he was a decent enough guy but oh well... and, I almost can't believe I'm saying this, Reina. So she grew a conscience just to get offed? I guess being good doesn't pay in the long run...

Overall... good finale, possibly even great, but I just felt a bunch of things about Mom could have been handled better. And maybe the run time was a bit too long. Like the Ward/Bobby subplot could have been shorter... or part of another episode entirely. Or maybe cut completely.


Regarding Skye's Mom: It was revealed she already massacred an entire village. When Cal sewed her back together, they murdered an entire village to heal her. So, she's already up there in body count. When push comes to shove, she doesn't much care about humans.

Regarding the crystals: The Terrigen crystals don't kill people, the metal in the Diviner does. Trip died because he had a piece of Diviner embedded in his chest. The little crystals are embedded with little bits of Diviner metal, hence Gonzales and the SHIELD people died and Coulson lost a hand. When submerged in water, it's possible the crystals dissolve into the water and enter the environment, but leave the heavy metal behind so nobody dies when they ingest the fish oil, but Inhumans gain their power. I like the scenario that SHIELD eventually goes back to retrieve it and finds that the crystals have already dissolved.

Regarding Simmons: I think Fitz accidentally jostled the handle and cracked open the door.

[lord_khaine]

The case of crystals... I'm a bit skeptical about it being hard to retrieve. And even if not, don't people test this stuff? Wouldn't it kill people and thus be recalled? Doesn't sound like a legit plan to make abunch of Inhumans...

Its all a matter of how swiftly the crystals dissolve in water, if its done in 2-3 hours then they would be long gone before anyone got a chance to go fishing for them.

As for the killing part then someone else already commented on it. all it takes is for the diviner metal to be less sollutable than the crystals to seperate the mix, and the fish would get the dose of "turn people into inhumans" but not the petrifying part.

[Reddish Mage]

Speaking of Charismatic Villains, points to Agents of SHIELD for having everybody remember that Ward is terrible. Unlike Arrow, which keeps finding reasons to have an unapologetic mass murderer hang around with the heroes.


Let's not forget Once Upon a Time. It seems that unapologetic mass murderers as allies is in.

Of course, TAHITI protocol gives SHIELD a way out with Ward, but it will never happen. Ward is far more awesome as a villain than he ever was in Season 1.

[Kitten Champion]

Regarding Simmons: I think Fitz accidentally jostled the handle and cracked open the door.


I can't believe that container was so feeble. While narrative law demanded that dangerous alien thing X would break out of containment at some point - and thus SHIELD would have to fumble somehow - I just can't see Fitz's nervous I-don't-know-what-to-do-with-my-hands gestures as being sufficient. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but the true purpose behind that aircraft carrier was to isolate that stone thing from land - and likely why Fury had prearranged agents to be sent in to pull the self destruct if they were compromised. So I doubt they skimped too much on the cell for the specimen itself.

I suspect the implication will be that the Kree rock thing had been gradually increasing in power due to the relative proximity of Inhumans, and been working at destabilizing its prison to... do whatever Kree Rock things do.

[3SecondCultist]

I can't believe that container was so feeble. While narrative law demanded that dangerous alien thing X would break out of containment at some point - and thus SHIELD would have to fumble somehow - I just can't see Fitz's nervous I-don't-know-what-to-do-with-my-hands gestures as being sufficient. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but the true purpose behind that aircraft carrier was to isolate that stone thing from land - and likely why Fury had prearranged agents to be sent in to pull the self destruct if they were compromised. So I doubt they skimped too much on the cell for the specimen itself.

I suspect the implication will be that the Kree rock thing had been gradually increasing in power due to the relative proximity of Inhumans, and been working at destabilizing its prison to... do whatever Kree Rock things do.

To nom on any nearby scientists? And maybe turn them into Captain Marvel, as the theories seem to be suggesting?

[JoshL]

I can't believe that container was so feeble. While narrative law demanded that dangerous alien thing X would break out of containment at some point - and thus SHIELD would have to fumble somehow - I just can't see Fitz's nervous I-don't-know-what-to-do-with-my-hands gestures as being sufficient. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but the true purpose behind that aircraft carrier was to isolate that stone thing from land - and likely why Fury had prearranged agents to be sent in to pull the self destruct if they were compromised. So I doubt they skimped too much on the cell for the specimen itself.

I suspect the implication will be that the Kree rock thing had been gradually increasing in power due to the relative proximity of Inhumans, and been working at destabilizing its prison to... do whatever Kree Rock things do.

My take on it was that the rock could have broken out any time it wanted to. It was clear that it was sentient, but I don't think it had encountered Inhumans before they took the ship. So it realized it was time to get out, waited for an opportunity to get someone alone (or maybe specifically wanted Simmons?) and then went for it. SHIELD had it contained, but it only remained that way because it didn't have a reason to get out yet.

Just a guess on my part. Either way, it was awesome and I can't wait to see how it turns out.

And my nomination for best quote of the episode: "This is me calm, Phil"

[Kitten Champion]

To nom on any nearby scientists? And maybe turn them into Captain Marvel, as the theories seem to be suggesting?

While there was some speculation regarding Skye turning out to be Her prior to the announcement of the movie and after the Guest House reveal that I could half-believe as plausible, right now I'm certain that Captain Marvel will be Carol Danvers whenever they choose to introduce her. In much the same way they wouldn't have gone with whoever to be Iron Man.

Though really, this would be a great way to handle her origin story. Ultimate Carol Danvers was a high ranking member and sometimes leader of SHIELD - which fit with her original profession in the 616 universe as Air Force intelligence and security during the early space program in the 60's - and making the Captain Marvel character a normal human modified to be an anti-Inhuman weapon through a Kree artifact would be a cool way to position her in the present Inhuman-focused continuity while not being too dissimilar to her comic book origin.

[3SecondCultist]

Hey Zodiac, it seems Brett Dalton himself agrees with you!

In the interview found here (http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/agents_of_shield_season_3_brett_dalton_excited_war d_officially_big_bad-2015-05) with the actor, Dalton does basically go on record saying that Ward will be the Big Bad of Season 3. Just putting that one out there. But if you read through, when asked about the possibility of Ward dying, he has this to say: "I would much rather have him come to end in an interesting way rather than have him just be a fixture on the show that is just kind of there." Based on everything he says in the interview, my bet is on him becoming even more ruthless in the next season, shedding most of his moral ambiguity in service to "closure", and doing lots of damage to Team Coulson before they go in for Ward's endgame.

So basically, I'm excited. I've wanted to see him become an out-and-out villain for a while, and "S.O.S" was a good step in that direction, showing just how ruthless and cold he can be. If you go and re-watch "Ragtag", you'll see that he really doesn't enjoy dropping Fitz-Simmons into the ocean. And here, he really enjoys torturing Bobbi. One of the biggest complaints about the MCU is that its villain game is fairly lacklustre. And yet, the small screen villains seem to be the best ones, and I doubt Ward will be an exception.

[Reddish Mage]

Before I begin, I just want to say that last episode was 11 out of 10!


I can't believe that container was so feeble. While narrative law demanded that dangerous alien thing X would break out of containment at some point - and thus SHIELD would have to fumble somehow - I just can't see Fitz's nervous I-don't-know-what-to-do-with-my-hands gestures as being sufficient. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but the true purpose behind that aircraft carrier was to isolate that stone thing from land - and likely why Fury had prearranged agents to be sent in to pull the self destruct if they were compromised. So I doubt they skimped too much on the cell for the specimen itself.

I suspect the implication will be that the Kree rock thing had been gradually increasing in power due to the relative proximity of Inhumans, and been working at destabilizing its prison to... do whatever Kree Rock things do.

Considering that point...I think its time to reveal a few of the many and enormous crimes against logic that bothered me after watching:

Once again, we get an evil villain that gave absolutely no indications of being such until it happened. Was the actress also not told? Yes, it was awesome when she killed Gonzales out of nowhere like that but still...

Seriously, looking back, I don't think there was any indications that suggest Jiaying was evil and saw human life as cheap even in retrospect. Unless you count the Season One bit where Skye parents were said to be evil...but who said that again?


Coulson...standing right up Cal just as he goes Mr. Hyde, narrowly dodging a flying roof, and then continuing to talk smoothly right as googly eyes does the zombie walk right up to Coulson and...joins the team. Dramatic, yes, a sound strategy for dealing with an abused lover and mass murderer on extreme drugs whose counter-indications include loss of humanity...probably not.


Aside from the fact that I'm not sure what secret-evil-Jiaying was thinking when she sent Cal away in the earlier episode (seriously, she didn't appear to have any sort of evil plot except to continue to have the Inhumans live alone and remain hidden). Her use of Cal here was rather poor...on the other hand I think it would be in character for evil-Jiaying to send her human husband away to die, and it was his idea after all...

Seriously dad...seriously? I knew you were insane, but that logic is beyond crazy

Those are just a few of the worse ones...please feel free to add to the list.

[LaZodiac]

Everything Jiaying makes sense if you understand where she's coming from. She spent her entire life hiding in secret from everyone. Just a "regular human being". Except that those in charge knew she was important, and force fed her humans through her power to keep her alive. She wanted to die.

And here comes the Kraken, and he fulfills her wish...in the most excrutiating way possible. Assuming she's still somewhat conscious during this, she's likely aware her daughter is in danger as well, which crushes her emotionally. Then Cal puts her back together. But her power, plus his surgical skill, can only repair the flesh. The mind is broken beyond repair, and from this point on she becomes basically a monster. She has only one desire, to make her Inhumans safe and alone, so that they never get torn to pieces like she was.

Cal doing what he does makes sense because he truly, truly loved her. He was also broken as well, imagining seeing your most beloved person in the world literally torn apart in front of you, laying in a ditch. Your daughter is missing, presumably gone to the same fate. Cal was broken enough to put her back together through stitching, and hoping her power would bring her back.

I you look closely, you can see bits in the previous episodes before she kills Gonzalos that hint to this. She treats Cal so nicely when it served to show Skye how great and happy the InHumans were, but remember that she had Gordan threaten his life. Trap him in a locked building until she could "deal" with him. She sold him to Shield so that he could, as we learned later, "kill as many Shield agents as he could." Remember also that, Cal established quite readily that the first thing he did after seeing her body was stitch her back together. So it's clear, since we know that a monster descended upon the village that was holding Skye originally, that that has to have happened AFTER fixing up Jiaying. Which is a further hint about her ordering Cal to do that, and feasting on the dead. It'd also explain why the reactions to this massacre where so intense. A single man killing a bunch of people is crazy, to be sure, but it wouldn't be anything more then a bunch of dead bodies. The way it was described, they where ripped to shreds, which is something I can see Jiaying's power doing if she went full throttle.

Jiayang is a very interesting villain, and if she had lived she'd make a good Magneto. But I'm glad she has died because it closes an arc, and closes it very well. It turns out that yeah, Cal is the better parent of the two. He's not as crazy as he seemed. So much in love, and a little broken enough to consider it, he became a weapon for her to use. It's pretty heavy.

[Rogar Demonblud]

All I can say about this episode is 'Wow did they step it up a notch' and 'Wish I had taken that bet with the guy who thought they were grooming Kara to be the MCU Madame Masque'.

[Carl]

@Reddish:

Third or fourth time i've said this but when Skye complains about the damage Cal will do out in the world if let loose Jiayang explicitly states she doesn't care because they're not inhuman's. Not her responsibility.

@Kato:

No your not the only one seriously put off by Kara's death. However unavoidable and justifiable her getting captured may be SHIELD was clearly ina position to do something about it if they really wanted which dumps primary responsibility for what happened squarely on them. Then when as a result of their mess she becomes incovninant they kill her off. What The Actual **** Guys.

[Helanna]

Then Thoughts

Confirmed that Ward killed the dogs. They're setting Ward up as a big bad, which I like. Ever since he grew that stubble (I see you there TV Tropes), he's had plenty of charisma for a main villain. I hope they don't make his motivation "REVENGE ON SHIELD FOR KILLING MY GIRLFRIEND...WHO I KILLED"


The one thing we know about Grant Ward is that he will always find somebody else to blame. So I think him getting revenge on Shield for 'killing' his girlfriend makes perfect sense.

On that note, there are still people out there who think Ward is a good guy deep down, that he will or at least should be redeemed and end up with Skye in the end. I'm a little concerned for these people at this point. (Actually I'm mostly annoyed, since I've seen them complaining that he was out of character and the result of poor writing. No, it's the result of you completely ignoring his canon actions in favor of your personal pet theory.)

[theNater]

Coulson...standing right up Cal just as he goes Mr. Hyde, narrowly dodging a flying roof, and then continuing to talk smoothly right as googly eyes does the zombie walk right up to Coulson and...joins the team. Dramatic, yes, a sound strategy for dealing with an abused lover and mass murderer on extreme drugs whose counter-indications include loss of humanity...probably not.
Logical or not, that's the Coulson I'm here to watch. That ludicrous idealism is what makes him one of my heroes; even if Cal had torn him apart I'd approve of Coulson's trying to talk him down.

That the show is willing to reward that idealism is just the icing on the cake.

[dehro]

Logical or not, that's the Coulson I'm here to watch. That ludicrous idealism is what makes him one of my heroes; even if Cal had torn him apart I'd approve of Coulson's trying to talk him down.

That the show is willing to reward that idealism is just the icing on the cake.

I'd go one further.. that ludicrous idealism is what made him the new director and the heart of the Avengers (and one of them) according to Fury, and is the reason for TAHITI and, ultimately, for the show.. On a more practical side, had it not worked, Coulson could always have thrown a handgrenade in Cal's face.

I think this season has gone a long way to demonstrate that he's a complete sociopath who will just espouse any random cause (HYDRA, 33's revenge, his own butt-hurt), to channel his desire for creative violence and blame it on someone else. The only one left to believe in his penchant for murder being means to an end and not the end itself is he himself. I think there's a good chance he'll go the way of a cackling villain next season.


seriously, guys.. to the best of our knowledge, it's made at least on a structural level, of stone that has the capacity to turn liquid and, by the looks of it, is also sentient or it wouldn't attack anybody. why is it so surprising that it could simply brute-force its way out of a box that was never designed to contain it in the first place, but rather to keep others from getting anywhere near it? it's made of glass and/or plastic, for pete's sake! the closest analogy I can find with what that thing is, structurally, is cold lava with probably a bunch of weird metal components to it... thinking of it that way, I have 0 problems with it being able to operate a door.
I do believe it is sentient because it very clearly picked a time to act when its prey was alone. I think that the choice of time of action was determined by the upcoming cod liver oil epidemic. I also doubt that whatever safety measures were taken towards the Stone doing something new other than going goopy once in a while, did account for it being sentient and hungry.
"but mommy, I don't want to eat the yucky pill"
"don't argue Timmy, who knows you might gain superpowers from it"
"I'll have two then"
didn't they use Popey to make kids eat spinach, back in the day?

[Kato]

Its all a matter of how swiftly the crystals dissolve in water, if its done in 2-3 hours then they would be long gone before anyone got a chance to go fishing for them.

As for the killing part then someone else already commented on it. all it takes is for the diviner metal to be less sollutable than the crystals to seperate the mix, and the fish would get the dose of "turn people into inhumans" but not the petrifying part.
Hm, it seems to me it took a good bit more than 2-3 hours, but I guess they didn't display it properly.

Though, I'll admit to my lacking understanding of the crystals makeup, so maybe it really depends on the distinction between the crystal and the metal.


Based on everything he says in the interview, my bet is on him becoming even more ruthless in the next season, shedding most of his moral ambiguity in service to "closure", and doing lots of damage to Team Coulson before they go in for Ward's endgame.

Moral ambiguity? The last of that was when he gave 33 up to SHIELD which actually was just a ploy. He hasn't had any ambiguity for weeks.


Logical or not, that's the Coulson I'm here to watch. That ludicrous idealism is what makes him one of my heroes; even if Cal had torn him apart I'd approve of Coulson's trying to talk him down.

That the show is willing to reward that idealism is just the icing on the cake.
Idealism is okay at times but... Coulson doesn't just trust in Cal. He makes sure Cal can't move while talking him down and then he relies on his people skills, to know Cal is honest. If it was just pure idealism I don't think I'd have liked it.

[dehro]

Hm, it seems to me it took a good bit more than 2-3 hours, but I guess they didn't display it properly.

Though, I'll admit to my lacking understanding of the crystals makeup, so maybe it really depends on the distinction between the crystal and the metal.

let's face it.. for all we know, the metal side of the diviners comes apart in salt water at the right temperature.

[Carl]

Random point but why are we assuming diviner metal won't dust fish as well as it does humans?

[Kitten Champion]

Idealism is okay at times but... Coulson doesn't just trust in Cal. He makes sure Cal can't move while talking him down and then he relies on his people skills, to know Cal is honest. If it was just pure idealism I don't think I'd have liked it.

Not pure idealism exactly, rather a calculated risk with a generously optimistic outlook on its success. Even if Coulson was confident he could talk Cal down, which at this point I wouldn't say was unreasonable, he certainly kept rolling the dice by actually bringing Cal on the mission with his team. There are so many ways that could have gone wrong for everyone.

In general, Coulson tends to go with his gut feelings and runs SHIELD not entirely unlike a small family-owned business.

[lord_khaine]

let's face it.. for all we know, the metal side of the diviners comes apart in salt water at the right temperature.

Indeed, the way these things act already throws most laws of physich and chemistry out the window.

But it is very believeable that the crystals could manage to dissolve before anyone has the time to calculate where the **** the crystals were lost and send a submarine to that location, especially with all the other things going on.

And if the Mist and the Diviner had not been seperated then the fish should have been turned into stone instead of Super power pills.

[Reddish Mage]

I'm a sales rep... when I go to a prospective client, I have a pricelist and a discretionary percentage of discount I can offer... besides the discount, there are further options to sweaten the deal and a host of reasons I can bring to the table why it would be of mutual interest to make said deal.
I open the transaction handing over the pricelist.. the buyer says he wants 50% discount.. then we go back and forth until we agree on what the discount will be.
Gonzales came in with what was a reasonable argument to why he gave the full pricelist. If both parties had wanted a transaction/agreement, Jiaying would have countered saying "we don't like it.. it would be best if you just left us all alone".. and then both parties could have taken stock and revised their proposals until they either found an agreement or agreed that an agreement couldn't be reached. Sometime along the back and forth, one or both parties could have decided to go for a more direct approach.
Jiaying nuked his face instead of considering the proposal, and given how she'd juiced up Cal well before the quinnjets landed, it is clear that she was dealing in bad faith. but then, we already knew she would, because if her strategy had not been planned well in advance and her decision had not already been made, Raina could never have foreseen the course events would have taken

In sales, you are meeting with a client that wants your product or service and you want to sell it, the only thing to argue is price. In this case Jiaying didn't want anything Gonzales had to offer, and Gonzales is making his proposal under an implicit threat of force. The cases are fundamentally different.

[dehro]

In sales, you are meeting with a client that wants your product or service and you want to sell it, the only thing to argue is price.
I wish that was the case... in sales you're just as often arguing with people that don't have particular interest in your product, and argumenting that they should and why, and when you get them to that point, why they shouldn't go to a competitor.
The cases may be different, but the process is pretty much the same. It's also the basis on which any new diplomatic relationship builds.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Logical or not, that's the Coulson I'm here to watch. That ludicrous idealism is what makes him one of my heroes; even if Cal had torn him apart I'd approve of Coulson's trying to talk him down.

That the show is willing to reward that idealism is just the icing on the cake.

Not even that, we had the main character of a show, a Psuedo Super Hero show, NOT USE VIOLENCE to solve a situation, we in 2015 where the two biggest shows of the Decade are about an Anti-Hero trying to live in Zombie Land, and a Teacher who slowly slides from "Good" guy to "Drug Kingpin" during this same time we have a show where the Main character takes the time and the chance to talk to his enemy, to understand the angry man infront of him and help him.

That is what Goodguys, real good guys do, for all of the big action moments in all the movies that one scene might just be the single BEST moment of "Comic Book Heroism" in all of the MCU.

....

If Coulson makes it to Avengers Infinity War...you know what would be a GREAT twist on all expectations. Instead of Captain America picking up Thor's hammer...what if Phil "Agent" Coulson did it instead, of course he would say..."I know what this does" when he picks it up.

[LaZodiac]

Logical or not, that's the Coulson I'm here to watch. That ludicrous idealism is what makes him one of my heroes; even if Cal had torn him apart I'd approve of Coulson's trying to talk him down.

That the show is willing to reward that idealism is just the icing on the cake.

Coulson's a Bioware protagonist. He'll talk you to death, but damn if he doesn't have a pile of guns behind him just in case.

But yeah, like Ryu just said. This is our hero, one of our main characters, solving a problem not through violence, but actually being a nice, understanding guy. That's just more of how Marvel does things. It's got dark plots, but it has heroes that are still good people. Yeah, Daredevil has the conflicted "one bad day from becoming Punisher" main character, with his brutal fighting, but that's a different genre of show entirely. Which is another thing the MCU as a whole has done really well, giving everything it's own genre. It's not just "a super hero movie" or "Super hero show". It's a show with super heroes, genre dependent on the show or movie in question.

[Joran]

I can't believe that container was so feeble. While narrative law demanded that dangerous alien thing X would break out of containment at some point - and thus SHIELD would have to fumble somehow - I just can't see Fitz's nervous I-don't-know-what-to-do-with-my-hands gestures as being sufficient. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but the true purpose behind that aircraft carrier was to isolate that stone thing from land - and likely why Fury had prearranged agents to be sent in to pull the self destruct if they were compromised. So I doubt they skimped too much on the cell for the specimen itself.

I suspect the implication will be that the Kree rock thing had been gradually increasing in power due to the relative proximity of Inhumans, and been working at destabilizing its prison to... do whatever Kree Rock things do.

Narrative law demands it, but it's kind of stupid. Fitz does jostle the cage and right before she gets sucked in, Simmons sighs and we see that the door is slightly ajar. Then the rock liquefies and sucks her in, leaving the door wide open.

Even if SHIELD didn't know the rock could liquefy (and my guess is that it only liquefies in the presence of Inhumans... ergo Simmons might be Inhuman), you'd think they would have at least put a combo lock on it to prevent random people from opening it.

[Flickerdart]

So what is it that cal actually did when he pulled Jiaying away from Skye? His dialogue seemed to imply that it was more than just pulling her off, but I didn't get it.

[Calemyr]

So what is it that cal actually did when he pulled Jiaying away from Skye? His dialogue seemed to imply that it was more than just pulling her off, but I didn't get it.


I believe he first broke her neck, causing her to lose her grip on Skye. and then crushed her chest with a hug to kill her. It was a brutal way to go, but quick and not visibly gory, giving him just enough time say a few final words to her without screwing Skye up any more than necessary. I'd note, however, that Jaiyang has already come from absolute dead status once.

May I just say I adore what they did with Cal in this finale? Cal is stable because his instability was tied to his imperfect serums - once he has the adrenal supplement added to it, he becomes oddly more stable, despite the increase in hostility. The perfected serum is why he was able to be talked to, I think. Having him break free and then ask to help was a great touch, as he is at that point completely able to butcher Coulson and instead sees that they share a common purpose. No manipulation, no deception, just revelation and cooperation. And yes, it is great to have a show where non-violent solutions are actually attempted and sometimes even successful. Coulson may have run him down in a SUV, but that was only ever meant to inconvenience him enough to get a few words out. I've said before that Kyle MacLachlan was doing an excellent job with Cal, but this conclusion would have never worked without a consistently brilliant and carefully nuanced performance by the actor. My only regret is that he's presumably out of the story now, as he was so much fun to watch.

[3SecondCultist]

So what is it that cal actually did when he pulled Jiaying away from Skye? His dialogue seemed to imply that it was more than just pulling her off, but I didn't get it.


In a nutshell, Cal was talking to Skye and saying that she didn't have to carry the burden of killing her own mother. He killed Jiaying because she needed to be killed, and he didn't want Skye to have to live with that trauma.

I like Cal. He's one of the better written tragic villains I've seen in a little while, although his transformation in "S.O.S. Part One" was a little bit silly looking, and to my mind, undercut his character a little bit. They could have gone the horror angle, but they didn't and decided to bare everything. While that makes him less creepy as a villain, it ultimately makes him more relatable.

[Flickerdart]

I believe he first broke her neck, causing her to lose her grip on Skye. and then crushed her chest with a hug to kill her.

Ah, I didn't notice that.

[Yana]

I believe he first broke her neck, causing her to lose her grip on Skye. and then crushed her chest with a hug to kill her.

Minor quibbleI think he snapped her spine instead of crushing her chest. Just a nitpick though.

[Calemyr]

Minor quibbleI think he snapped her spine instead of crushing her chest. Just a nitpick though.

It wasn't shown on screen either way. Just that it was a bone-cracking move that involved her being held off of the ground and didn't visibly disturb Skye beyond the fact that her mother just got killed in front of her. My mind went to the 'death hug' because it just seemed right for a man with intense emotional investment and "inhuman" strength. Come to think of it, though, the shot of her hanging feet do not include Cal's legs, so he'd be holding her away from him. You're probably correct, given that, it's just a little strange that he'd do this in such a detached manner.

[lord_khaine]

I'd note, however, that Jaiyang has already come from absolute dead status once.

yes, but last time were with Cal's help, dont think anyone else is going to be allowed to ressurect her this time.


I think he snapped her spine instead of crushing her chest. Just a nitpick though.

It seems like a slightly unnececary thing to do when he had already snapped her neck though.

[LaZodiac]

yes, but last time were with Cal's help, dont think anyone else is going to be allowed to ressurect her this time.

It seems like a slightly unnececary thing to do when he had already snapped her neck though.

She was still very much alive with a broken back. He had to make sure she was deader then dead. Remember, she came back from death after being literally torn open and organ harvested. All Cal had to do was stitch her bits back up. He had to make SURE she stayed dead, so a super crushing hug to death to the spine would help. They probably disposed of the body later, before it could start regenerating (since we know it's slow unless you feed her a corpse).

Also, I think it was a full on hug, but since Cal is tall she's just lifted off the ground.

[Rakaydos]

Ultimate Carol Danvers was a high ranking member and sometimes leader of SHIELD - which fit with her original profession in the 616 universe as Air Force intelligence and security during the early space program in the 60's -

here's a twist: Carol Danvers works for General Talbot, and at some point she's going to get mixed up in something that gives her powers. While still working for Talbot. Let hilarity ensue

[3SecondCultist]

here's a twist: Carol Danvers works for General Talbot, and at some point she's going to get mixed up in something that gives her powers. While still working for Talbot. Let hilarity ensue

Excellent, that gives the theory even more weight! Of course, we're much more likely to see Marvel cast a newcomer, if only to allow audiences to see the movie without any of the baggage carried by the show. It's possible that a skilled enough writing team would be able to do it, similar to how they're going to be handling Doctor Strange (i.e. forgoing most of the origin story aspects of the movie).

[Kitten Champion]

here's a twist: Carol Danvers works for General Talbot, and at some point she's going to get mixed up in something that gives her powers. While still working for Talbot. Let hilarity ensue

Oh, then if Talbot and co. become The Office of the MCU, then Carol can be the Pam.

[lord_khaine]

She was still very much alive with a broken back. He had to make sure she was deader then dead. Remember, she came back from death after being literally torn open and organ harvested. All Cal had to do was stitch her bits back up. He had to make SURE she stayed dead, so a super crushing hug to death to the spine would help. They probably disposed of the body later, before it could start regenerating (since we know it's slow unless you feed her a corpse).

Also, I think it was a full on hug, but since Cal is tall she's just lifted off the ground.

As i recall Cal explained that the real reason she came back from that were that he sewed her up again and then feed her an entire village.. im actually not sure she regenerates faster than a normal human being without that.

Else.. the case is kinda.. that if you have first snapped the neck, then moving further downwards to break the spine is a little like first cutting the cord to your toaster, then cutting it again a bit further down.

[LaZodiac]

As i recall Cal explained that the real reason she came back from that were that he sewed her up again and then feed her an entire village.. im actually not sure she regenerates faster than a normal human being without that.

Else.. the case is kinda.. that if you have first snapped the neck, then moving further downwards to break the spine is a little like first cutting the cord to your toaster, then cutting it again a bit further down.

True, but remember she ate a lot of people today. And ate some of Skye as well. She might have a little more electricity in them wires, for lack of a better term.

Look sometimes you just have to crush a vampire's spine JUST to be sure. The symbolism of the hug death is just clutch, and sometimes these things are needed.

Oh hey, maybe he WAS trying to like, crush her organs? Assuming they grew back? Since it WAS established that she...kind of needed them to be alive, and presumably grew them back once she ate a bunch of people.

[ryuplaneswalker]

True, but remember she ate a lot of people today. And ate some of Skye as well. She might have a little more electricity in them wires, for lack of a better term.

Look sometimes you just have to crush a vampire's spine JUST to be sure. The symbolism of the hug death is just clutch, and sometimes these things are needed.

Oh hey, maybe he WAS trying to like, crush her organs? Assuming they grew back? Since it WAS established that she...kind of needed them to be alive, and presumably grew them back once she ate a bunch of people.

I think Situations like Her are why Maxim 37 (there is no "Overkill" there is only "Open fire" and "I need to reload") is a thing.

Whenever you are in doubt as to the state of death of your target, Kill it again, until you are 100% sure it will not get back up.

[3SecondCultist]

True, but remember she ate a lot of people today. And ate some of Skye as well. She might have a little more electricity in them wires, for lack of a better term.

Look sometimes you just have to crush a vampire's spine JUST to be sure. The symbolism of the hug death is just clutch, and sometimes these things are needed.

Oh hey, maybe he WAS trying to like, crush her organs? Assuming they grew back? Since it WAS established that she...kind of needed them to be alive, and presumably grew them back once she ate a bunch of people.

Just wanted to make sure that she was deader than dead. Those regens are hard to kill, makes sense that they would make sure she was dead. Of course, I don't think she can just come back without help from a skilled surgeon like Cal. And it's not like any of her Inhumans were on hand to help her out.

Did anyone see what happened to the other two Inhumans, actually? The ones on the quinjet? They were in the middle of the ocean, a million miles from nowhere, but they could probably swim. Are we supposed to assume they just drowned, then?

[dehro]

For all we know, she can rebuild muscle tissue but not her spine or bones.

[LaZodiac]

Just wanted to make sure that she was deader than dead. Those regens are hard to kill, makes sense that they would make sure she was dead. Of course, I don't think she can just come back without help from a skilled surgeon like Cal. And it's not like any of her Inhumans were on hand to help her out.

Did anyone see what happened to the other two Inhumans, actually? The ones on the quinjet? They were in the middle of the ocean, a million miles from nowhere, but they could probably swim. Are we supposed to assume they just drowned, then?

Yeah I think we're just supposed to assume they died, I think. Maybe when the earthquake hit the plane it crushed them?

[Androgeus]

She's dead till plot twists demand otherwise.

[theNater]

I think Situations like Her are why Maxim 37 (there is no "Overkill" there is only "Open fire" and "I need to reload") is a thing.

Whenever you are in doubt as to the state of death of your target, Kill it again, until you are 100% sure it will not get back up.
Yeah, that only works in stories without revolving door afterlives. This is superhero comics. Even if they burned her to ashes, encased each individual ash in an indestructible force-field, and placed each one into the heart of a different star, that's no guarantee she'd stay dead.

[Kato]

I think Situations like Her are why Maxim 37 (there is no "Overkill" there is only "Open fire" and "I need to reload") is a thing.

Whenever you are in doubt as to the state of death of your target, Kill it again, until you are 100% sure it will not get back up.

But that's only viable if you have unlimited ammo and time. In most cases, you have neither. So you shoot until they don't get up. Of course, those damn regenerators are always tricky like that. Best case scenario, drop them in a volcano or such, fire kills most of them, or burns them faster than they can regen. Of course, that requires a volcano or maybe some other molten metal or something close by.

[Reddish Mage]

Yeah, that only works in stories without revolving door afterlives. This is superhero comics. Even if they burned her to ashes, encased each individual ash in an indestructible force-field, and placed each one into the heart of a different star, that's no guarantee she'd stay dead.

The MCU has yet to establish that they will bring back their dead. Heck magic, time travel, other dimensions, and other such cheap tricks haven't been shown yet.


Yeah I think we're just supposed to assume they died, I think. Maybe when the earthquake hit the plane it crushed them?

Yeah, I imagine Cal ripped Jiaying's heart out, simply because that's effective (or too much OUaT). The deaths here was similarly simply edited out.

Still, the rule is "if you don't see the body" it's fair game to bring them back later.

[Kitten Champion]

The MCU has yet to establish that they will bring back their dead. Heck magic, time travel, other dimensions, and other such cheap tricks haven't been shown yet,

Except Coulson, of course.

Though, as I was saying before, they can't keep actors around perpetually like the way HYDRA kept the Winter Soldier in cryogenic suspension only to bring them out when they need them. The longer they're around the more they have to pay them and unless you're Robert Downey Jr. that's a problem. So perma-death is far more viable a business strategy. As opposed to comics where the characters they use cost nothing and they have copyright maintenance to think about.

[Rakaydos]

Coming home from a school fieldtrip to Oscorp with a spiderbite, Peter isnt feeling well. Aunt May slips him a fishoil tablet and tells him to head to bed early. Cue transformation sequence.

[Reddish Mage]

Except Coulson, of course.

Though, as I was saying before, they can't keep actors around perpetually like the way HYDRA kept the Winter Soldier in cryogenic suspension only to bring them out when they need them. The longer they're around the more they have to pay them and unless you're Robert Downey Jr. that's a problem. So perma-death is far more viable a business strategy. As opposed to comics where the characters they use cost nothing and they have copyright maintenance to think about.

True there. Nitpick on copyright maintenance, they just need to feature the character like, once a decade, to maintain and alternative world's, past sequences, dreams, etc all count.

Also, Coulson's resurrection is super-science that carries a heavy cost.

[theNater]

Except Coulson, of course.
Also Jiaying; Cal cradling her corpse is how we know what he's got against Whitehall. From the movies, Loki dies in Thor's arms and Groot is strewn across the Xandarian landscape. Both of them are back by the end of the credits.

Some people complain about this; I think they're being silly. Death being reversible is just an element of the setting. It can be used well or poorly, and in my opinion, the MCU has used it well so far.


Though, as I was saying before, they can't keep actors around perpetually like the way HYDRA kept the Winter Soldier in cryogenic suspension only to bring them out when they need them. The longer they're around the more they have to pay them and unless you're Robert Downey Jr. that's a problem. So perma-death is far more viable a business strategy. As opposed to comics where the characters they use cost nothing and they have copyright maintenance to think about.
The revolving door nature of death may lead to interesting implications here. When an actor's contract is up, the character dies. Some years later, when there's time for new stories with that character, they come back, but a little different(new actor). Maybe it's an alternate universe version of them, or the process of being brought back to life changed them, or whatever. So we could, in theory, have a new Iron Man movie in 2067 in this same continuity.

[Flickerdart]

So we could, in theory, have a new Iron Man movie in 2067 in this same continuity.
Hollywood, not rebooting anything in 50 years? Now that's fiction!

[LaZodiac]

Also Jiaying; Cal cradling her corpse is how we know what he's got against Whitehall. From the movies, Loki dies in Thor's arms and Groot is strewn across the Xandarian landscape. Both of them are back by the end of the credits.

All characters that have legitimate and understadable ways to avoid death, or in the case of Loki "literally faking it" which I think is okay.

[Carl]

Hollywood, not rebooting anything in 50 years? Now that's fiction!

+1


@Nater:

2 point to bear in mind.

1. All of those examples are cases of someone appearing dead when they weren't. I think we can take it as given that someone made sure Jiayang was deader than dead this time around, and actual death is so far something only Coulson has come back from, and then only after a major fan campaign.

2. Despite the fair amount of overlap the MCU fanbase does include a lot of non-comics fans in it's list of people, i'd argue for a variety of reasons that such people would be much less tolerant of the farcical degree of revolving door afterlife that can pervade the comics. I'm not say Coulson's going to be the only resurrection, but i'd be very cautious about projecting it as anything but the very rarest occurrence.

[Reddish Mage]

Also Jiaying; Cal cradling her corpse is how we know what he's got against Whitehall. From the movies, Loki dies in Thor's arms and Groot is strewn across the Xandarian landscape. Both of them are back by the end of the credits.

Some people complain about this; I think they're being silly. Death being reversible is just an element of the setting. It can be used well or poorly, and in my opinion, the MCU has used it well so far.


The revolving door nature of death may lead to interesting implications here. When an actor's contract is up, the character dies. Some years later, when there's time for new stories with that character, they come back, but a little different(new actor). Maybe it's an alternate universe version of them, or the process of being brought back to life changed them, or whatever. So we could, in theory, have a new Iron Man movie in 2067 in this same continuity.

And we'll be on the 27th Doctor....yeah I don't think we'll get a continuity along those lines...at some point the current Marvel MCU will be brought to an end...probably when the movies stop making money and the public decides they like something else.

As far as revolving doors and cheap death...I don't agree. Yes they bring back some people through fake deaths, super-science and Groot being a plant (although I thought it was a baby Groot not Groot himself)...but I think the tricks they used are one and dones, they are meant to be surprising when they happen and to not the same way twice.

[DiscipleofBob]

Coulson's a Bioware protagonist. He'll talk you to death, but damn if he doesn't have a pile of guns behind him just in case.

Now I want Bioware to do a SHIELD tie-in game in the style of Mass Effect. Hell, even Skye's powers look a lot like some of the biotic powers.

Renegade action to icer the monologuing bad-guy.

[Philistine]

"Shoot him with an Icer" sounds more like the Paragon option. The Renegade interrupt would be a bullet.

[theNater]

Hollywood, not rebooting anything in 50 years? Now that's fiction!
Not likely, I'll grant.


All characters that have legitimate and understadable ways to avoid death, or in the case of Loki "literally faking it" which I think is okay.
Reddish Mage's condition was "if you don't see the body", and we saw the body in all those cases. This makes me think a more expansive condition would be better, like "always". It is always fair game for them to bring back a character the audience thought was dead, because that's a thing that can happen in superhero stories. They need to explain it in each case, sure, but it's always okay in the sense of not breaking the setting. There still needs to be a good story reason for it, of course; bringing a character back just to serve as a surprise isn't cool.


As far as revolving doors and cheap death...
Revolving doors and cheapness of death are not the same thing. I'm going on a line of thought inspired by the Giant in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273656-The-current-main-plot-is-boring/page3&p=14813005#post14813005), and I say that these deaths were not cheap. The important thing about those deaths isn't a giant tally-board of the living and the dead, it's how those deaths impact the plot and characters. Coulson's death inspired the Avengers to action, and kicked off multiple major mysteries. Jiaying's turned her and Cal into monsters. Groot's gave us his best line and showed the softer sides of Rocket and Drax (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Ji8ok_TIM). Loki's gave us Thor's reaction, and gave him the opportunity to surprise Odin, and will almost certainly pay off more dividends further down the line.

Each death was presented as a death, and was reverted, but each one granted significant return on investment in terms of what they brought to the story. That's what I mean when I say they've been used well.

[Reddish Mage]

The problem with it is this:

Yes various individuals can bypass any security. But those are the specific individuals that A) the index is supposed to stop from becoming threats in the first place. B) the threat they represent has to be balanced against the threat represented byy the alternative. If you don't have an index then that means every superpowered individual is suddenly left to deal with their powers on their own and if any other form of threat, (which is going to be vastly more common), tris to take advantage of them you''ll never know because when they disappear they'll just be another missing normal. Until the bad guys operation gets busted or they start using what they've acquired to do major badness no one will know. Which is the bigger threat?

I tend to come down on the side that such individuals are rare enough on the whole and the mandate to deal with these kinds of people as well tends to offset the dangers.

The other major point i'd make is that at that point all classified data anywhere upto and including nuclear launch codes becomes vulnerable, how far can you really go with not giving them things to go after before it becomes completely silly and counterproductive? Someone with that ability because unstoppable sort of meeting someone they can't control. Illusionists, Shape Changers and Mind Benders are realistically physical goods if they pre-plan enough, which raises the question of if anyone not able to stop them should even worry about them. Nothing you do is going to stop them without crippling yourself to an unacceptable degree vs everyone else.

Like i said i agree there's just enough wiggle room in there for a valid argument, but i hold that it's a very very, very weak one.

I don't see very much wiggle room to support absolutely a pro-Index OR and anti-Index position in just what you are laying out here...or, more importantly, in any particular post I've read in this thread.

A sound absolute argument for or against the Index could theoretically cite some sort of agreeable moral absolute in terms of either security or freedom...yeah like the playground is going to agree on some sort of broad moral absolute involving superhumans...or you could just completely outline the circumstances involved and point to the fact that one or the other would obviously lead to a better result.

Of course, the problem is...we don't have the complete circumstances...we never got a very good view of the world in the first place, and the facts are whatever Marvel/Whedon/ABC/Disney and whoever else has a hand in AoS decides they are going to be at any particular moment.

Hence we are left with guess what is going on within the "text" itself or with intentions of the conglomerate above...I think it mostly comes down to Whedon. I see some pro-Index motions of the plot here and there, but I think that the history of the Marvel universe has never been unambiguously pro-registration...

I don't think it is possible Marvel can ever put together a text that satisfies the reader that registration is definitely a "good" thing...at best they can make it the lesser of two evils.

On the show, you had Jiaying link the Index to the Nazis (yes undercut a bit by it being immediately followed by her going the full-Magneto), the Index is shown as being behind numerous enhanced not being able to live a satisfying existence and instead being forced to deny a part of themselves (of course those people are Scorch and Razor-nails)...and well...the problem is that the guys on the Index in the context of this show have mostly been serving as villains or walking disasters until they are brought on-board SHIELD, which pretty much exists to do the Index thing.

So...I'm forced to conclude, that if there is a way to make the pro-registration argument, AoS would be making it. However, I think there is enough notes of discord given by the Inhumans (as well as many of the "gifteds") before going full-tilt villain, and enough ties to the comic books that I am not convinced that the SHOW gives the INDEX its full throated endorsement as its, let me go for irony, "final solution" until we see things play out to the fullest...

The Inhumans are Coming!...and the MCU will never be the same.

[Reddish Mage]

]Revolving doors and cheapness of death are not the same thing. I'm going on a line of thought inspired by the Giant in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273656-The-current-main-plot-is-boring/page3&p=14813005#post14813005), and I say that these deaths were not cheap. The important thing about those deaths isn't a giant tally-board of the living and the dead, it's how those deaths impact the plot and characters. Coulson's death inspired the Avengers to action, and kicked off multiple major mysteries. Jiaying's turned her and Cal into monsters. Groot's gave us his best line and showed the softer sides of Rocket and Drax (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Ji8ok_TIM). Loki's gave us Thor's reaction, and gave him the opportunity to surprise Odin, and will almost certainly pay off more dividends further down the line.

Each death was presented as a death, and was reverted, but each one granted significant return on investment in terms of what they brought to the story. That's what I mean when I say they've been used well.

Firstly, The Giant, in that post, was talking about MacGuffens and Setting and Plot...not revolving doors and cheapness of death. In the case of Order of the Stick, you have a literally revolving door afterlife, and yet death is not cheap however, because The Giant uses a lot of mechanisms to make each death mean something. Roy's death splits the party, freezes the plot in place for a book, and causes V to go mentally unhinged. Other deaths get their impact because the death is the consequence of another characters dramatic change for the worse (Miko's, Tarquin's), because the characters refuse to come back to life or get their ashes scattered, because the character is passed up for a possible undead creation...and so on... . However, this points to the brilliance of The Giant and not anything about revolving doors in the MCU.

What I'm arguing however, is that MCU, unlike OoTS, does not have a plethora of easy mechanisms for bring a character back to life. If a character dies, and stays dead, that requires explanation in OoTS, simply because even medium-level characters have easy means at their disposal to bring people back from the dead in D&D...

In MCU, all of the reasons each of these deaths had impact, was BECAUSE there is an assumption in place that dead means stays dead! Its meant to be surprising that Jiaying is alive. That a sapling from Groot creates a baby-groot. That Loki's death is an illusion...I would also argue that of these...only Coulson was really ever dead and literally came back to life...and it was also the only one I felt was a cheap contrivance for the sake of a show (they needed a bridge between the MCU and the television show...)

Loki tricked Thor into thinking he was dead. Groot...may...have actually died and baby-groot is another consciousness. Jiaying was taken apart but put back together, etc. Also, I would note that Groot and Loki's "deaths" were reversed pretty fast, so the fake-out is momentary, it isn't something that really stuck like....well Coulson's was supposed to.

It does mean "if you see the body" rule is violated...but that's a general rule of thumb for fiction, not AoS.

The rule for AoS is no "revolving door." Each death must be presumably permanent or death WILL lose its meaning for this show. That means I would predict that any on-screen death can be presumed to be perms-death until we see otherwise. That we need some sort of unique explanation for why we DIDN'T have a real death...and they basically can't bring back Jiaying, Raina, Gordon, or any of the rest of those killed this season without death losing a lot of meaning...which means it will probably not happened.

Seriously...I'm worried that reversing too many more deaths will cause the show to go the way of Charmed...too magical too much too fast...

[theNater]

Firstly, The Giant, in that post, was talking about MacGuffens and Setting and Plot...not revolving doors and cheapness of death.
I was trying to bring in the larger point that the facts don't matter in and of themselves. What matters is how those facts function in service to the story. Whether those are facts about the nature of the Snarl, or other setting facts, or even simply the facts of who is alive and who is dead, they are unimportant except in how they influence the larger story.


What I'm arguing however, is that MCU, unlike OoTS, does not have a plethora of easy mechanisms for bring a character back to life. If a character dies, and stays dead, that requires explanation in OoTS, simply because even medium-level characters have easy means at their disposal to bring people back from the dead in D&D...
The MCU has alien biology, inhuman biology, and superscience; plus the source material and future plans indicate it also has magic, time travel, and straight-up reality manipulation. Our characters don't have ready access to any of it(and if that's all you mean, we're in total agreement), but it's still there. Just as D&D's various resurrection mechanics are still there even in a story about a low-level party. Their existence doesn't impact our story very much, but it's inaccurate to claim they don't exist.


In MCU, all of the reasons each of these deaths had impact, was BECAUSE there is an assumption in place that dead means stays dead!
I don't think the audience assumption there matters as much as you suggest here. The scene between Rocket and Drax is still powerful on repeat viewings, even though we the audience know about baby Groot dancing in the credits. The assumption on the part of the characters matters, but our knowledge isn't theirs.


The rule for AoS is no "revolving door." Each death must be presumably permanent or death WILL lose its meaning for this show. That means I would predict that any on-screen death can be presumed to be perms-death until we see otherwise. That we need some sort of unique explanation for why we DIDN'T have a real death...and they basically can't bring back Jiaying, Raina, Gordon, or any of the rest of those killed this season without death losing a lot of meaning...which means it will probably not happened.

Seriously...I'm worried that reversing too many more deaths will cause the show to go the way of Charmed...too magical too much too fast...
Overuse is a problem, as with any story element. And I'm not saying any of those deaths will or even should be reversed. But I do think the writers are capable enough that some or all of those deaths could be reversed in a satisfying way.

[Kitten Champion]

The MCU has alien biology, inhuman biology, and superscience; plus the source material and future plans indicate it also has magic, time travel, and straight-up reality manipulation. Our characters don't have ready access to any of it(and if that's all you mean, we're in total agreement), but it's still there. Just as D&D's various resurrection mechanics are still there even in a story about a low-level party. Their existence doesn't impact our story very much, but it's inaccurate to claim they don't exist.


There's going to be time travel? Do you mean because there's going to be a Time Gem at some point?

That would be interesting, there's enough MCU continuity now that going to the past actually has a frame of reference.

[LaZodiac]

There's going to be time travel? Do you mean because there's going to be a Time Gem at some point?

That would be interesting, there's enough MCU continuity now that going to the past actually has a frame of reference.

I think the time stone will slow time, or speed it up, not time travel. But we'll see.

[theNater]

There's going to be time travel? Do you mean because there's going to be a Time Gem at some point?
Yup! Time Gem in the comics allows time travel. They may change it for the movies, of course.

For bonus conversational value: if the MCU does have time travel, who should take a trip, and to when should they go? Who's got ideas?

[3SecondCultist]

Yup! Time Gem in the comics allows time travel. They may change it for the movies, of course.

For bonus conversational value: if the MCU does have time travel, who should take a trip, and to when should they go? Who's got ideas?

I'd love to see Iron Man go to the 1940s, to go and get Captain America (if, for some reason, modern day Cap isn't available). All of the Fish Out of Temporal Water reversed back on him! That would be really fun, something for Infinity War maybe? :smalltongue:

[Kitten Champion]

Yup! Time Gem in the comics allows time travel. They may change it for the movies, of course.

For bonus conversational value: if the MCU does have time travel, who should take a trip, and to when should they go? Who's got ideas?

I think Captain America to 1945, because the question of whether or not he'd return would be an interesting conflict for him. Iron Man meeting his father in his prime would be interesting as well, particularly if Tony works the time travel angle to his advantage to start a project in the past that would eventually be used in the present against Thanos.

Though I think there are some more likely options - Black Panther has the Time Gem already and has been using it to literally talk to his ancestors throughout time and predict the future to justify Wakanda's utopic status, or it's going to wind up being in the Guardians of the Galaxy sequel as an essential plot element that's going to tie into Peter Quill's mysterious father somehow.

[Hytheter]

I hope the Time Gem doesn't do time travel just because time travel tends to make a mess of alternate timelines and/or turn plots into sponge. It can be done right, but it's safer to to leave the whole thing alone.

I could see it speeding or slowing time relative to the user though. Or perhaps allowing someone to experience another point in time without literally going there, as a compromise to my above concern. Obviously anything done "in the past" in that case won't have a tangible effect on reality, but it could be useful to gain information.

edit: Oh, a limited rewinding of time could also be workable.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yup! Time Gem in the comics allows time travel. They may change it for the movies, of course.

For bonus conversational value: if the MCU does have time travel, who should take a trip, and to when should they go? Who's got ideas?

I figure it's at least even money they'll use the Time Stone to bring Pietru back.

[lord_khaine]

Isnt there other of the gems that can also ressurect the dead?

And is it not certainly also something Thanos can do?

[lt_murgen]

From a cinematic perspective, a Time gem that allows the user to see the 'currents of time' would be effective.

See all past decisions by everyone, and how they interacted to bring everything to the 'current' point in time, and then all potential futures flowing out from that point.

That way, the user could NEVER make the wrong decision, driving the universe towards his/her desired future. Combined with the space gem to travel anywhere in the universe instantly, and the power/mind gem to make their decisions instantly and perfectly enforcable, and Thanos would be able to literally create his utopia in short order without resorting to 'Travel to the past to change X' which has been so over-done in movies.

[meltodowno]

Meh, thanos is overated.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mGSjfqmnYFc/VTmL6UpqghI/AAAAAAAAP7w/aZXrGT1P2lA/s1600/3.jpg


And MCU is likely to get access to an easier way to bring back dead characters, what with Dr Strange just around the corner and the bag of magical worms that will open for shield to have to deal with in addition to aliens.

.... I'm really hoping they don't go down the 'magicians are aliens' route ....

[Fiery Diamond]

I had a bizarre dream last night that turned into a crossover of Agents of SHIELD and Nanatsu no Taizai. The Kree rock turned Simmons into Diane somehow. Fitz had to come rescue her and restore her memories (because currently in Nanatsu no Taizai Diane has had her memories erased). Also, I was involved somehow.

Much less realistic than the dream I had back when I was watching Season 1 where I was a Gifted who had sidestepped into an alternate reality that was based on MCU and got the welcome wagon treatment by Coulson's team, who had a flying giant truck instead of a plane. May was suuuuper suspicious of me when I could identify them all by name despite never having met them, because I came from a reality in which they were TV show characters. She did not buy that explanation at all.

[Orrmundur]

Though I think there are some more likely options - Black Panther has the Time Gem already and has been using it to literally talk to his ancestors throughout time and predict the future to justify Wakanda's utopic status

That... that would actually be really cool. I'd like to see that so long as Dr. Strange will not involve the Soul Gem, having two of the Infinity Stones already be on Earth of all planets in the universe seems a bit too convenient.