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View Full Version : There's Evil, then there's WOTC



Maelstrom
2007-04-19, 02:22 PM
OK,

As a gamer of nearly 25 years, I have grown up with the Dragon magazine and the Dungeon Magazine. I have seen it grow (both for the better and for the worse), and recently, seen it prosper under Paizo...

And now this Paizo is announcing WotC has revoked the license to publish these cornerstones of the D&D franchise. (see letter from the publisher here -- www.paizo.com )

Wizards of the Coast? Wankers of the Century? You decide. (I've personally had enough of them). Bass turds :smallfurious:

Ramza00
2007-04-19, 02:32 PM
So if I understand the letter correctly WOTC is moving to a more online format, and will be producing content that way. Because of this they are discontinuing the license with Paizo since they will be competing in similar stuff.

Does this mean Paizo will also be producing similar content for WOTC, but not under the name Dragon and Dungeon license, perhaps? Perhaps having a hand with this new online content wotc is developing that is similar to Dragon and Dungeon? The letter says the company are in good terms and they have business arrangements in the present and will continue them in the future, but it doesn't describe how these contributions will come into effect.

At least Paizo is creating a new magazine Pathfinder (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/v5748eaic9kh3) which will publish monthly 96 page adventure paths.

Theodoxus
2007-04-19, 02:33 PM
ok... and when the franchise continues, and is available online - and probably better for it - please take the high road and don't instantly 'fanboi' all over it, kthxbye

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-04-19, 02:33 PM
Man, this sucks.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-04-19, 02:34 PM
ok... and when the franchise continues, and is available online - and probably better for it - please take the high road and don't instantly 'fanboi' all over it, kthxbye

Hey, I liked actually, you know, reading a magazine. Having something to carry around was cool.

If I think it sucks, doesn't make me a "fanboi". I'm not writing e-mails to WOTC about it.

Everyman
2007-04-19, 02:46 PM
KoT, I believe Theo was referring to people resorting to name calling and whining. You've done neither, so you're good.:smallsmile:

Second, I would like to remind you guys that simply breaking down into flaming each other will not change the situation or help your arguement. No need to bring the mods down upon us.

Finally, I understand why WotC has decided to switch to an online venue. It gives them more control AND another method to make money. Before the angry "How dare they make money!" speeches come out, please be aware the WotC is a business, and there are only so many supplements, models, and books they can publish/make before they fall behind with their current schedule. The gaming industry is not exactly an easy industry to make money in, unless you can create a variety of content constantly. A web-zine might be what they need to supplement their income.

This isn't to say I won't miss the magazines. I wish they could stick around. However, WotC is just doing what they feel will best continue their business.

Maelstrom
2007-04-19, 02:47 PM
ok... and when the franchise continues, and is available online - and probably better for it - please take the high road and don't instantly 'fanboi' all over it, kthxbye

Kthx for the personal attack...certainly nothing but the highroad for you.

As for WOTC putting it online and publishing it themselves, we've *seen* what they've done with these Magazines in the past. As a matter of fact, they became so horrid, I stopped my subscription then.

Sorry, but Paizo has done a stand up job bringing the Dragon/Dungeon Magazines out of the toilet WotC flushed them down.

As I stated above, this is just another in the string of missteps WotC has flung our way. I'm sick of it.

Now as for whining, I'd prefer to use the word venting. After all, this has been a cornerstone of *my* gaming habit for some time. You'd expect some sense of disillusionment, I would hope. Honestly, this came as quite a shock.

Namecalling? Well, sure, I "resorted" to renaming WotC, but like I said before, venting a bit. I *certainly* am not leveling any direct insults at anyone.

I am a businessman myself, so I completely understand *most* of WotC has done to generate their income, and without being able to see their business plan for their "online" publications, I can only speculate that it not the brightest of ideas. Making content available both offline and online, sure. Online only? Not my style (and missing the opportunity for additional income).

In brief, a shame these two magazines had to end so abruptly...

jameswilliamogle
2007-04-19, 02:58 PM
As I stated above, this is just another in the string of missteps WotC has flung our way. I'm sick of it.Well, you could always sell your books, and go into WoW RPG, or Warhammer40k. Great form of protest, imo.

If there were enough gamers around to try those out where I live (and starting, like, tomorrow, since I'm moving at the end of summer), I'd be happy to try them out myself.

I never got that much out of the magazines... to be honest, I wasn't sure how they were making $, considering the few people I know who use them.

Maelstrom
2007-04-19, 03:05 PM
In a positive light, Paizo's new offering "Pahfinder" seems promising...it will be available both offline *and* online... Maybe a bit on the pricey side, but we shall see

TroyXavier
2007-04-19, 03:07 PM
While sad, I can understand why they wanted to end it I'm still not sure how much I'm interested in their online stuff if it costs money, but I see why they're doing it.

Chunklets
2007-04-19, 03:16 PM
Well, damn. I'm going to have to find something else to read on the bus, it seems...

Fax Celestis
2007-04-19, 03:18 PM
Well, this explains why I haven't been contacted about my submissions.

Person_Man
2007-04-19, 03:20 PM
WotC is owned by Hasbro, and has been since 1999. I'm surprised they haven't come up with the Mr. Drizzt Do'Urden Potato Head.

WotC probably gets a small % of every Dragon and Dungeon Magazine sold, plus some licencing fee. I could easily see how they could make more money by publishing similar content online and selling ad space. And while I will miss Dragon, I'm looking forward to an online database of hundreds of more classes/feats/modules/etc. Hopefully, WotC will make enough money off of it that they expand their online presence even further, thus leading to more content for us gamers.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-19, 03:22 PM
Kthx for the personal attack...certainly nothing but the highroad for you.

As for WOTC putting it online and publishing it themselves, we've *seen* what they've done with these Magazines in the past. As a matter of fact, they became so horrid, I stopped my subscription then.

Sorry, but Paizo has done a stand up job bringing the Dragon/Dungeon Magazines out of the toilet WotC flushed them down.

As I stated above, this is just another in the string of missteps WotC has flung our way. I'm sick of it.

Now as for whining, I'd prefer to use the word venting. After all, this has been a cornerstone of *my* gaming habit for some time. You'd expect some sense of disillusionment, I would hope. Honestly, this came as quite a shock.

Namecalling? Well, sure, I "resorted" to renaming WotC, but like I said before, venting a bit. I *certainly* am not leveling any direct insults at anyone.

I am a businessman myself, so I completely understand *most* of WotC has done to generate their income, and without being able to see their business plan for their "online" publications, I can only speculate that it not the brightest of ideas. Making content available both offline and online, sure. Online only? Not my style (and missing the opportunity for additional income).

In brief, a shame these two magazines had to end so abruptly...
First, saying that you're "Venting" doesn't make it any better, or less abraisive.

Second, after reading the press release on Paizo I don't see what the problem is, according to them, it's a move to a new format, nothing more. If it turns out later that it's a huge problem that's destroyed both magazine, maybe then you have license to start flinging around words like "evil"

Third, did you miss the part about Pathfinder?
The same people will still be publishing, I don't see what exactly you're losing except the traditional name.

Maelstrom
2007-04-19, 03:29 PM
First, saying that you're "Venting" doesn't make it any better, or less abraisive.


Thank you for your opinion


Third, did you miss the part about Pathfinder?
The same people will still be publishing, I don't see what exactly you're losing except the traditional name.

Did you miss my post on Pathfinder?

EvilElitest
2007-04-19, 03:43 PM
I will dearly miss Dragon, i've only had it for a year

On the other hand, will the online version be free and they just sell add space? or do you have to pay to see the stuff?
I would imagine they could make more money by having both online and off line, as Dragon doesn't cost them much.
While i do feel betrayed, it is a company after all
from,
EE

Maelstrom
2007-04-19, 03:54 PM
Ya know, I think I've realized one of the things that will hit the hardest... The loss of GreyHawk. It's the setting I learned to play in, have played the most in, and have come to think of as "home" for my gaming. I am certainly looking forward to see what Paizo does with their new offerings, but it will not be GreyHawk...

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-04-19, 04:06 PM
I guess I'm just nostalgic. I makes perfect sense for WOTC to pull the plug, but I love the magazine, I really do. I've read it on and off since I was a lad of 10, so I'm attached.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-19, 04:34 PM
Did you miss my post on Pathfinder?
Yes I did, I apologize. It was refreshingly optimistic.

jaxal1
2007-04-19, 04:39 PM
I have sent to following letter to Wizards of the Coast, both electronically and (Soon) via snail mail. I am also reposting it on every gaming forum to which I belong.

To whom it may concern:

I was bewildered when I noted that Dungeon and Dragon magazines were being discontinued. At first I hoped that it was an April Fools joke that was misposted. Unfortunately, we know that is not the case.

I just wanted to let WotC know how disappointed I am. Had Wizards merely moved the publication back 'in-house', I would have understood. But I cannot imagine how the decision was reached to terminate a piece of gaming history. This will have fundamentally altered the Hobby.

I realize that Wizards is a corporate entity that has to make a profit. I also understand that D&D is Wizards' IP and as a result Wizards had every right to take the action they have. I merely hoped that Wizards would care more about customer goodwill.

I am not angry, merely saddened. There are a great many people who will be yelling about how they are going to boycott Wizards (and Paizo, by some people who do not truly understand what has happened.) I am also aware that, just as in Magic, the majority of these people will return and buy as much product as they ever have. Myself, I am what I call a 'gamer in exile'. I no longer actively play due to my schedule and other considerations, but I do not consider myself to have 'quit' or 'retired' from gaming. My monthly issues of Dungeon and Dragon represent my lifeline to the gamer community in a way that an Internet connection cannot: They are left on the coffee table to be perused at my leisure. Due to this lifeline, I still purchase new books from WotC on occasion, preparing for a return to the game. Without Dungeon and Dragon, I worry that I, like others, will cease to be 'gamers in exile' and become merely an 'ex-gamer'.

As I noted, I cannot imagine what circumstances led Wizards to revoking Paizo's publication rights. Perhaps they merely wanted to reassert control over their own IP, but this would mean restoring Dungeon and Dragon as Wizards publications, not canceling them. Maybe it was a bid to reduce competition for D&D adventures, since the 'Complete' series and similar type books are tapped out until 4th edition and sales have suffered. Maybe it was just to force people to subscribe to the alluded 'online content' if they want a pre-generated campaign with a Illithid or a beholder in it.

I wish I could say I hope that this all blows up in Wizards' collective face; that sales will plummet as people boycott, the online content fizzles, and 'gamers in exile' cease buying products, but I do not, because that would mean the end of a hobby I love.

There is some hope, of course. Games Workshop is absolutely draconian about their intellectual property, and extortionist in their pricing, but their products still sell as well as they ever have. Their customers and devotees resent them for it, but they still worship. After all, no one else can make Warhammer, just as no one else can make D&D. And I would rather see a paranoid, controlling Wizards continue to put out quality, if overpriced, products than run the franchise into the ground trying to make money in the short run as TSR did with 2nd edition. But I would much rather see a benevolent Wizards put out quality products while being open with the community.

In short, I hope that the end of Dungeon and Dragon does not spell the end of Dungeons and Dragons.

Sincerely,
Ross Byers

Behold_the_Void
2007-04-19, 04:50 PM
I would like to point out that magazine ventures as a whole have become entirely less profitable of late with the advent of the internet. Honestly, I'm surprised as many magazines as there are still exist today, a lot of companies (either rightly or not) have been moving away from producing magazines into something more profitable. They still intend to publish such content, they just want to make it available online, which is not at all unusual. It may be a bit disappointing, but honestly I don't generally have the money to get magazine subscriptions so I've never been able to make use of Dragon Magazine anyway. I liked it in concept, but having such content available to me online for free is something I must say I do find appealing. Also, with Pathfinder, it's not like Paizo is getting the shaft, the companies are still open to working together and they'll still have their own hand in the gaming industry.

Ranis
2007-04-19, 04:51 PM
RIP, Dragon Magazine. We shall mourn you.

Epiphanis
2007-04-19, 05:10 PM
Somewhat annoying, but not that huge a deal from my perspective.

To me, What This Really Means is that Dungeon magazine and Dragon magazine are going to be consolidated into one larger periodical and renamed Pathfinder. Same eidtors, same contributors, same subject matter, with a shift in emphasis so that most of the content revolves around the current Adventure Path... which, to be honest, was what they moving toward anyway, with stuff like "Wormfood" and "Savage Tidings."

All of the non-Adventure Path type stuff will be available online from WotC (will this be free online or seperate subscription?) I suspect it will be mostly the same people writing the material.

The biggest impact is probably that Pathfinder will be limited to OGL material, meaning less of the most recent splat will make appearances... and we will see more splat-clone stuff with the serial numbers filed off.

On the upside, the Paizo editorial staff will be less beholden to WotC and might be able to field some actual objective criticism of them for once.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-19, 05:26 PM
Somewhat annoying, but not that huge a deal from my perspective.

To me, What This Really Means is that Dungeon magazine and Dragon magazine are going to be consolidated into one larger periodical and renamed Pathfinder. Same eidtors, same contributors, same subject matter, with a shift in emphasis so that most of the content revolves around the current Adventure Path... which, to be honest, was what they moving toward anyway, with stuff like "Wormfood" and "Savage Tidings."

All of the non-Adventure Path type stuff will be available online from WotC (will this be free online or seperate subscription?) I suspect it will be mostly the same people writing the material.

The biggest impact is probably that Pathfinder will be limited to OGL material, meaning less of the most recent splat will make appearances... and we will see more splat-clone stuff with the serial numbers filed off.

On the upside, the Paizo editorial staff will be less beholden to WotC and might be able to field some actual objective criticism of them for once.

Dragon and Dungeon, at this current juncture, receive a large portion of their articles from readers who send them in. No idea if WotC will continue in that regard; I certainly hope so.

As for whether it'll be free on the WotC website, I highly doubt it. WotC, if anything, is a corporation, and needs to make money to justify its existence to its parent company, Hasbro. This is a step in that direction.

Epiphanis
2007-04-19, 05:43 PM
As for whether it'll be free on the WotC website, I highly doubt it. WotC, if anything, is a corporation, and needs to make money to justify its existence to its parent company, Hasbro. This is a step in that direction.

Probably true, but there is a strong argument to be made that free online support articles boost sales of the game books, where the real money is. Basically, I see the "Dragon Magazine Online" (or however they plan to market it) as being viable as a formalized, regular expanison of the "Web Enhancements" and web page articles they do for free now anyway.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-19, 05:49 PM
The reason those Web Enhancements boost sales is because they're directly linked to particular books. Dungeon and Dragon are usually not, instead used as an outlet for homebrewed publications or aspects of the game that don't warrant their own book but are still interesting. Not being linked to a particular book, I'd be inclined to say that they wouldn't increase purchase that much.

Theodoxus
2007-04-19, 05:54 PM
Actually, what I meant was - when the periodicals come back in full force, online - please don't go all 'ga-ga' over them after slamming them so resolutely. It's that kind of hypocracy - generally seen on gaming forums when format changes or a game is 'patched' (either video or pnp) - that ticks me off. Fire vehemently at the source, and then walk away. Consider the bridge burned, and if you do fall back in love with the product, do us a favor and keep it to yourself.

That's what I meant. I came off harsh because I was attempting to make a point while rushed. I meant no disrespect.

Theo

Krellen
2007-04-19, 06:25 PM
The thing that bothers me the most is the final issue of Dragon is issue #359. It is a travesty that WotC won't allow the release of a thirtieth anniversary issue, such as #360 would have been.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-04-19, 06:28 PM
Strangely enough, I havent bought a single Dragon magazine since 1994...

Not because I disliked it, or because I didnt want to pay for it.... but because it stopped being distributed into Mexico!

Turns out that the market for foreign magazines tanked here in Mexico in the 1994 crisis and the 2 major editorial distributing houses stopped carrying a lot of the less popular, "niche" magazines. Mind you, the "niche" products that stopped being distributed here included all of Marvel Comics original products, so that you can understand the size of the editorial crisis --only the spanish translated comics (produced and printed in Mexico from the originals) survived that crisis.

12 years later, it turns out none of the two ever tried to get the distribution deal again.

So, whats a guy to do? I turned to the Internet for gaming materials. And I find that, if you are willing to do some digging to separate the wheat from the chaff.

So, while I understand the frustration of many of the loyal readers of Dragon and Dungeon, I can only hope that WOTC will have some common sense and not try to charge too much for their online materials. Actually, an Ad-income-based "Dragon Magazine Online" site, linked to the Boards and their downloadable sections would be nice.

I might be able to pay a couple of bucks for some quality adventures or supplements in .pdf, provided they are not too greedy and try to kill the golden-egg goose

[Insert Neat Username Here]
2007-04-19, 06:35 PM
The thirtieth anniversary issue was #344. I guess Dragon wasn't originally monthly, or went on a temporary hiatus, or something like that.

Zherog
2007-04-19, 06:37 PM
At least Paizo is creating a new magazine Pathfinder (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/v5748eaic9kh3) which will publish monthly 96 page adventure paths.

Perhaps a nitpick... Pathfinder is not a magazine. It's a softcover book published monthly.


Finally, I understand why WotC has decided to switch to an online venue. It gives them more control AND another method to make money.

WotC had complete control of material in both magazines. That's a non-issue.


Third, did you miss the part about Pathfinder?
The same people will still be publishing, I don't see what exactly you're losing except the traditional name.

While Paizo will be publishing Pathfinder, it's not the same thing. For starters, Pathfinder will be entirely OGL. That means, for example, that it'll never use the warlock. Or mind flayers. And all the other non-OGL material Paizo has been permitted to use.

Second, Pathfinder is going to be a dedicated series of books. With Dungeon, subscribers receive three adventures a month; with Pathfinder, you'll get one adventure and material to support it.

Pathfinder may very well be a high quality product. But it's not the same thing as what was appearing in Dungeon.

Matthew
2007-04-19, 07:18 PM
The reason those Web Enhancements boost sales is because they're directly linked to particular books. Dungeon and Dragon are usually not, instead used as an outlet for homebrewed publications or aspects of the game that don't warrant their own book but are still interesting. Not being linked to a particular book, I'd be inclined to say that they wouldn't increase purchase that much.
This is probably true; however, it is worth noticing the slew of Adventures being produced by Wizards this year, an unprecedented amount really. I would be willing to bet that this move is connected to this change in product and sales focus. It might even be the case that Wizards is seeking to support Greyhawk (by which I do not really mean Greyhawk, but the generic D&D setting that is its current incarnation). This looks very like a small part of a larger sales strategy.

The thing that bothers me the most is the final issue of Dragon is issue #359. It is a travesty that WotC won't allow the release of a thirtieth anniversary issue, such as #360 would have been.
Yeah, that bothers me too, though the thirtieth anniversary was some time ago (Dragon was not always a Monthly Magazine), it is annoying that it has ended so close to a multiple of twelve. Dungeon has ended on 14.5, though, so it's no big deal.

MegasquidMan
2007-04-19, 08:52 PM
uhm.. I'm sure this was already asked, but if not, here goes:

I have until September, right? If so, can I order older issues until then?

Fax Celestis
2007-04-19, 08:53 PM
From my reading of it, they're going to be continuing old issues as normal.

Gralamin
2007-04-19, 09:17 PM
edit: Post moved to a new post to avoid thread derailing

TSGames
2007-04-19, 09:33 PM
Finally, I understand why WotC has decided to switch to an online venue. It gives them more control AND another method to make money. Before the angry "How dare they make money!" speeches come out, please be aware the WotC is a business, and there are only so many supplements, models, and books they can publish/make before they fall behind with their current schedule. The gaming industry is not exactly an easy industry to make money in, unless you can create a variety of content constantly. A web-zine might be what they need to supplement their income.

This isn't to say I won't miss the magazines. I wish they could stick around. However, WotC is just doing what they feel will best continue their business.
"WotC is a business" is not suitable justification for anything because it justify every action they could take. I am a supporter of Capitalism(yes, with a capital "c") and business of both small and large sizes, but there comes a point when a business is ruled solely by profit and ethics, along with customer service(insofar as it does not provide profit) is tossed to the wayside. I hate to see this happen in WotC a company that's done very well for itself and provided many high-quality products to an obscure market. They do own the best selling card game in the world, and in D&D they do fine, it's not about profit so much as it is about controlling the market without becoming a monopoly. The customer's left out of it, numbers are all that matter, and it's quite unfortunate.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-19, 09:53 PM
A paraphrase from Buffy, courtesy of Mr Rupert Giles:


A computer cannot match a good book. The feel of it, the smell of it, it brings back memories.

Fat Daddy
2007-04-19, 09:59 PM
Regardless of WotC's business reasons or financial motivations I am deeply saddened by this decision. I feel as though I am losing an old and dear friend. I have been reading Dragon since I was 10 years old (that's 26 years for those who are curious) and I've been with Dungeon since issue ONE.

I understand that they will be going to an electronic model. But it's not the same. I already miss the feeling of anticipation I get around the first of the month when going to the mailbox to check if the Latest Dungeon is in the box or around the 15th looking for the newest Dragon. These publications have been a staple of my gaming experience for over a quarter century.

I have that sad, empty feeling inside just thinking about it. I'm starting to feel really old now so I guess I'll go and curl into a fetal position with my 1e DMG (signed by Gary Gygax (sorry, I had to throw that in there)) and reminisce about the 'good ol days'.

Reinforcements
2007-04-19, 10:01 PM
Yep, don't care. Heck, I HAVE a subscription to Dragon and I don't care. Hopefully they'll replace it with something actually worthwhile.

::is hopeful::

EvilElitest
2007-04-19, 10:06 PM
So waht is the deal with hte online version?

Is it going to be the free and they sell add space? Or make money varying on the websites hits, or what?
from,
EE

Wehrkind
2007-04-19, 10:15 PM
I hope the online version has more content than Games Workshop's "Black Gobbo." Granted, GW still produces White Dwarf, so it is not as though the content dried up.
Still, it is a shame to do away with a magazine that has been around for so long. Magazines are sort of a money sink these days though, with the internet eating their lunch, and with hard copies essentially requiring so many advertisements they seem like one long ad. I stopped subscribing theo PopSci and PopMech for just that reason, along with how much I HATE turning like 20 pages to read the last 5 paragraphs of a story...

clericwithnogod
2007-04-19, 10:26 PM
It seems like this could be related to the Dungeons & Dragons Insider Package which popped up at the end of last year...

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=744631
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=715071

Zagreen
2007-04-19, 10:26 PM
[Scrubbed]

Fat Daddy
2007-04-19, 10:35 PM
[Scrubbed]
Wow that's great advice.

I express my disappointment on a forum of people with interests similar to mine and this is what I get.

I'm 36, married, kids, work full time, school full time, mortgage, car payments, the whole 9 yards. I'm already all grown up there Zagreen, I think I know a thing or two about 'grown up responsibilities'. Comments like this don't add anything to the discussion.

Zagreen
2007-04-19, 10:49 PM
Wow that's great advice.

Thanks! It really is, isn't it?

In retrospect I probably should have made it more clear that my reply was aimed at the two or three full-bore rants that have been made, rather than the rest of the posts here (yours included) which were already quite rational and mature (which is more than can be said of some of the other forums I've seen this "discussed" on).

Nonetheless, it's awesome advice in any event.

TerraNova
2007-04-19, 11:01 PM
Paizo was doing too good for their own good, i guess. Dungeon and Dragon where quaint appendages, too deficit to burden the company with, when they where handed out to Paizo, under quite strict control of Wizards. The paizo crew managed to turn them around - and now they get to bleed for it.

Pretty sick, but then, what's to expect from "big business"?

CharPixie
2007-04-19, 11:17 PM
White Dwarf never had content worth reading anyway.

I can't attest to Dragon, but the demise of Dungeon makes me wonder if they'll redirect all the talented submissions to the online adventures section of their website: it would be utterly cool if they doubled or tripled the quality content they have there.

As someone who has never read Dragon or Dungeon, and just knows Dragon as a mag that produces obscure and strange rules every so often, I am less than disturbed by their demise. And if they can enrich their online content, which I've actually read, all the better.

Renegade Paladin
2007-04-19, 11:17 PM
Thanks! It really is, isn't it?

In retrospect I probably should have made it more clear that my reply was aimed at the two or three full-bore rants that have been made, rather than the rest of the posts here (yours included) which were already quite rational and mature (which is more than can be said of some of the other forums I've seen this "discussed" on).

Nonetheless, it's awesome advice in any event.
No, it's not. I will rant all I please, because I paid for a paper copy that I can haul to the table. Guess what? My computer is decidedly non-portable and printing stuff out (character sheets, maps, the occasional adventer from WotC's archive) costs me a fortune in ink already. Therefore, I will be as angry as I wish and there is nothing childish about it, because I actually am losing out here after paying my hard-earned money.

TerraNova
2007-04-19, 11:23 PM
Allow me to elaborate on my first rantish post a little. I stand by what i said (Everyone should stand by what they say, at least as far as is sensible), but feel that my reasons for saying so have not been included in that post.

Both magazines, but especially Dungeon, have gained quite a bit in popularity in my randomly chosen sample (three german cities). They have turned from a "for the freak D&D lovers" publication to one most people involved in D&D will recognize. That is why i firmly believe paizo turned the mags around.

As to why WotC shut them down - avoiding of "in-house" competition. Dungeons adventure paths especially are great resources for the time-starved DM, and that resource lives on a market WotC has recently re-discovered: Published Adventures. They have put the Kibosh on hardcover publication of the Age of Worms path earlier - most likely because of that reason. Now they just decided that the serialized format was equally "damaging" to their market share in that segment.

As i said, sad but that's capitalism for you.

Techonce
2007-04-19, 11:55 PM
I'm concerned for both Paizo and WotC.

Paizo has a decent idea with Pathfinder, but will it last? Based on letters to the editor, not everyone was fond of the adventure paths that paizo was doing, but still go the magazine for the other 2 adventures and the other interesting bits. NOw it' more of a follow the adventure path or nothing. Will someone spend $20 a month (or less if they go electorinc) for a magazine they won't use? ALso if a person doesn't buy the first couple of chapters in the pathfinder series, then they won't buy the rest of the series.

WotC on the other hand, won't be getting any money from me. I can't view their website at work. (WebSense is pure evil) so I don't ever go there. I only learn about new gaming books from dungeon and dragon and oops... Won't be seeing them anymore.

I know I am not a majority in this, but there are a fair number of people who use Dungeon and Dragon as their view in the the goings on of D&D and that will mostly go away...

It's kind of sad...

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-04-20, 12:26 AM
[Scrubbed]

People like, just started ranting- shouldn't this quote be saved for when the threads been here for a bit longer?

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-20, 12:35 AM
Things that I especially liked, and will miss from Dragon: Demonomicon articles(especially Thralls for the Demon Lords not covered in BoVD), and Class Acts.

TerraNova
2007-04-20, 12:37 AM
I doubt Pathfinder will last.

More expensive, less Newsstand sales, no international distribution, higher production costs, no chance to "try out" new talent, no more license to use anything from established worlds or non-core material (That's right, not even the Monkey Grip Feat)... sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Tharr
2007-04-20, 12:40 AM
The OOTS gang will be hurt since most people read OOTS there.
Reading people say they did not like certain views on gaming.
Hope wotc now sees other game companies try fill old gap now caused.

Zagreen
2007-04-20, 12:53 AM
Ok, so maybe it was a bit preemptive.

Truth be told I'd prefer online distribution myself, but I have a sneaking suspicion the online content will end up costing about as much to buy as it would if you were buying it in full-color glossies. I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong, but I'm not especially optimistic.

Fat Daddy
2007-04-20, 01:09 AM
Things that I especially liked, and will miss from Dragon: Demonomicon articles(especially Thralls for the Demon Lords not covered in BoVD), and Class Acts.

I liked class acts quite a lot myself. I was also quite fond of the 'ecology of' articles. The Demonomicon articles were pretty good but I don't utilize the BoVD in my games so they weren't quite as usefull for me.

I'll also miss Dungeon. I hope 'Pathfinder' replaces the Adventure Paths nicely but I also liked the other, short one-shots. They were great fillers for when my players took a hard left off my pre-conceived path.


The OOTS gang will be hurt since most people read OOTS there.

I must agree. I found OotS (and hence this very forum) thanks to Dragon.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-20, 02:37 AM
Yeah, I like the Ecology series myself. Bet they'd get a decent amount of money if they'd compile the lot of them once Dragon is done. Or if they're feeling generous, put them up online.

That does leave the question though. Aside from a couple of comics, and the adventures, there really wasn't much else in Dungeon(beyond the odd introduction of a couple interesting items/feats like the Braid Blade and the Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm), was there? :/ The 101/10 things lists were nice to read through though.

Zherog
2007-04-20, 07:42 AM
(WebSense is pure evil)

Yes. Yes it is.


More expensive, less Newsstand sales, no international distribution, higher production costs, no chance to "try out" new talent, no more license to use anything from established worlds or non-core material (That's right, not even the Monkey Grip Feat)... sounds like wishful thinking to me.

As a matter of fact, Pathfinder won't have any newsstand sales. It's a book, not a magazine.

Also, while they're losing out on non-SRD material (because some non-core stuff is in the SRD, such as the Energy Substitution feat), they get to finally use all the OGL material out there on the market now. Dragon and Dungeon couldn't use stuff (such as, for example, what Rich has posted on the site, or the cool monsters in the Tome of Horrors). Now all that material is fair game for Paizo.


Yeah, I like the Ecology series myself. Bet they'd get a decent amount of money if they'd compile the lot of them once Dragon is done. Or if they're feeling generous, put them up online.

It already exists (http://paizo.com/store/magazines/dragon/issues/specialIssues/v5748btpy7vq1&source=top). :)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-20, 09:08 AM
Second, after reading the press release on Paizo I don't see what the problem is, according to them, it's a move to a new format, nothing more.
A new format which doesn't exactly suit all current readers.

I find a published hard copy more convenient than an online format for a number of reasons. It's easier on the eyes. It's more portable. I waste enough of my time on the internet as it is, and my tendency to attempt a multitask with each trip online means I always spend three times as long on the web than I initally intend. I don't need another reason to do that to myself.

It's not going to work out very well for me and many others, some of whom have already expressed as much in this thread.


Third, did you miss the part about Pathfinder?
A far more expensive book (there's another format change for ya) that has more in common with Dungeon than Dragon. The latter is the publication to which I subscribed. I felt it was too much a "take it or leave it" problem with only three adventures per issue in Dungeon. Pathfinder has only one! And each one will be linked to the previous. It's a much tougher sell, there.


;2433208']The thirtieth anniversary issue was #344. I guess Dragon wasn't originally monthly, or went on a temporary hiatus, or something like that.
I believe Dragon started out bi-monthly.


A paraphrase from Buffy, courtesy of Mr Rupert Giles:

A computer cannot match a good book. The feel of it, the smell of it, it brings back memories.
So spot on.


As to why WotC shut them down - avoiding of "in-house" competition.
But that doesn't particularly make sense. The online world and the print world are each subtly different markets—even within the larger market of "Gamers." Some people would rather buy hard copies of online content while some people would rather have the online stuff. WotC at least faked knowing this much when they published the online Map Folio items for the print market. Short of being "competing with themselves," this was instead a matter of reaching out to different sub-markets.

In a similar manner, a different way of handling things would be to continue publishing Dragon and Dungeon magazines while also providing online versions of their content. Cover both delivery methods. Make the people that prefer print happy. Make the people that prefer online content happy. Maybe even get some extra with people that buy both versions of the product.

Unfortunately, they have decided to pull out of the print market. At least where magazines are concerned. I assume this online delivery system doesn't negate future books.

(I don't know whether I should take my final comment seriously or not...)

Matthew
2007-04-20, 09:18 AM
That final comment has some resonance, that's for sure. Have you seen this: http://customadventure.livejournal.com/?

Charity
2007-04-20, 09:26 AM
White Dwarf never had content worth reading anyway.

Not fair, before games workshop warhammerified it, WD was a worthwhile read.
Darned whippersnappers.:smalltongue:

Justin_Bacon
2007-04-20, 09:28 AM
A far more expensive book (there's another format change for ya) that has more in common with Dungeon than Dragon. The latter is the publication to which I subscribed. I felt it was too much a "take it or leave it" problem with only three adventures per issue in Dungeon. Pathfinder has only one! And each one will be linked to the previous. It's a much tougher sell, there.

Pathfinder isn't doing much for me at all. Compare it to the Shackled City hardcover: For the $60 Shackled City costs you'll get 3 installments of Pathfinder. You'll only be getting 70% of the material and it'll be softcover instead of hardcover.

I understand the economics here: Shackled City benefitted from the fact that a large portion of its development costs were covered by the monthly magazine. But, as a consumer, that's a pretty hefty loss of value.

And I liked the high quality adventures of Dungeon. Oh, sure, in any given month I was unlikely to have something which I could use in that very same month. But occasionally I would, and my stack of Dungeon magazines is always one of the first stops when I'm developing a new campaign: What can I use? What can I adapt?

The adventures from WotC's site are decent, but they're all super-short.

I'd prefer to hear that Paizo was going to publish a new ADVENTURE magazine every month.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Matthew
2007-04-20, 09:29 AM
Not fair, before games workshop warhammerified it, WD was a worthwhile read.
Darned whippersnappers.
Very true. Gygax was looking towards White Dwarf as a vehicle for Dungeons & Dragons at one point, apparently.

Were-Sandwich
2007-04-20, 10:19 AM
I welcome the discontinuation of Dungeon and Dragon and move to an online format. Now because I hate them, or think they're ruinung the hobby, but because this way i'll actually be able to get a freakin' copy.

It might not be so bad in some places, but in my area, its absolutely impossible to get any kind of gaming 'zine except White Dwarf. Now I can actually read the magazines.

I think that is one thing that will be improved by this move: accessibility.

So, I'm happy.

Krellen
2007-04-20, 10:37 AM
Subscription isn't available to you, Sandwich? There should be postal delivery systems virtually everywhere.

I recently had renewed my Dragon subscription. I have two years still coming to me, and only, what, five months of that will I actually get. Since it looks like the 6 Pathfinders I'd get with my credit is a complete arc, I might give it a go, but.. meh. I've always made my own adventures. I liked Dragon for keeping me up-to-date on the game, and vastly prefer print to online distribution. I hate reading news, articles and other such long-winded things online. The internet is for opinions. Everything else should be printed.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-20, 10:40 AM
Hey, I feel your pain. I had to get Dungeon 130 and Dragon 298 off E-bay a couple weeks ago. Final cost was 6 times what I would have paid for either one, or about a 200% increase over what they cost together.

However, I don't like being charged for online "books". What happens if my system crashes? Or my portable memory/thumbdrives spontaneously breakdown/pass through a magnetic field/burn down with my house? What if I can't even make a back-up to begin with, because of DRM? These are all issues that bug me. Sure, you could argue that I would lose the magazines if my house burned down, but as long as I take the right precautions, they're a lot more durable than they would be as 1s and 0s. :(

Zherog
2007-04-20, 11:23 AM
Subscription isn't available to you, Sandwich? There should be postal delivery systems virtually everywhere.

I recently had renewed my Dragon subscription. I have two years still coming to me, and only, what, five months of that will I actually get. Since it looks like the 6 Pathfinders I'd get with my credit is a complete arc, I might give it a go, but.. meh. I've always made my own adventures.

You also have the option to convert the remaining balance of your subscription money into a Paizo store credit. So if you don't think Pathfinder is the thing for you, you could grab stuff from their website, such as the Dragon Compendium, or other cool 3rd party books.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-20, 02:02 PM
That final comment has some resonance, that's for sure. Have you seen this: http://customadventure.livejournal.com/?
No.

I think I may be missing the relevance to the total elimination of printed rulebooks, though. My (admittedly rushed) first opinion is that it's simply another online community engaged in a collaborative RPG project. Not all that different from our very own Tears of Blood.


I welcome the discontinuation of Dungeon and Dragon and move to an online format. Now because I hate them, or think they're ruinung the hobby, but because this way i'll actually be able to get a freakin' copy.
...
I think that is one thing that will be improved by this move: accessibility.
But, as I mentioned above, they don't have to discontinue the print copies to provide online copies. I think an online delivery system is good, but is it really that problematic for WotC and Paizo to run both print and online?


I hate reading news, articles and other such long-winded things online. The internet is for opinions. Everything else should be printed.
True dat. :smallwink:

Fax Celestis
2007-04-20, 02:23 PM
But, as I mentioned above, they don't have to discontinue the print copies to provide online copies. I think an online delivery system is good, but is it really that problematic for WotC and Paizo to run both print and online?

They don't have to, but it makes financial sense.

Matthew
2007-04-20, 02:29 PM
I think I may be missing the relevance to the total elimination of printed rulebooks, though. My (admittedly rushed) first opinion is that it's simply another online community engaged in a collaborative RPG project. Not all that different from our very own Tears of Blood.
Not quite. It's a game designer (Wolfgang Baur (http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showcreator&creatorid=501)) who is receiving online commissions to produce work. When fifty people (or whatever) put up the money, he begins the project. The final work goes out via PDF and print, but it ain't being sold in the conventional retail sense and the print version seems kind of superfluous.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-20, 03:28 PM
They don't have to, but it makes financial sense.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of publications that make plenty profit with both online and print content. It's possible that it could actually be a better financial decision to do just that. In addition to tapping both the exclusively online and the exclusively print markets, there's also the possibility of dipping into more than a few pockets twice over since some people can be expected to buy both versions.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-20, 06:54 PM
Not necessarily. There are plenty of publications that make plenty profit with both online and print content. It's possible that it could actually be a better financial decision to do just that. In addition to tapping both the exclusively online and the exclusively print markets, there's also the possibility of dipping into more than a few pockets twice over since some people can be expected to buy both versions.

They won't do that, though. What they'll do is release online mini-outlets, and then release a "Best of Web" compliation hardcopy book.

Reinforcements
2007-04-20, 09:48 PM
*dusts himself off*

Whew. In case anyone was wondering, people at the Wizards forums are still angry and stupid over this. In that order, I think, but it's kinda hard to tell.

Krellen
2007-04-20, 10:27 PM
You're brave for checking it out, Reinforcements. I'm glad we called you. :smallbiggrin:

Zagreen
2007-04-20, 10:57 PM
Yeah, uh, I decided I probably shouldn't look at Wizards' boards anymore, at least until this dies down a bit. Coming here after looking at Wizards was a major factor in the excessive snarkiness of my first post (for which I apologize). People's posts here have been a lot more sensible, but seeing a couple of ranty bits here was just one bit too much and I snapped.

I wish more information was forthcoming about the online replacement, it's kind of annoying that they don't have anything up yet. I wonder if Paizo didn't push for an announcement earlier than what Wizards was ready for (Wizards would probably have wanted a later announcement so they could have more stuff prepared in anticipation of the switch, but Paizo would not have wanted to keep selling subscriptions for a product they wouldn't have).

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-20, 11:20 PM
They won't do that, though. What they'll do is release online mini-outlets, and then release a "Best of Web" compliation hardcopy book.
Yeah, that's what they will be doing, but that doesn't mean a more liberal treatment of the print market wouldn't be viable.

But then, I honestly don't have access to the numbers Wizards used to make the decision. Suffice it to say, being more of a print man where this material is concerned, I would have preferred my suggested strategy.


I wonder if Paizo didn't push for an announcement earlier than what Wizards was ready for (Wizards would probably have wanted a later announcement so they could have more stuff prepared in anticipation of the switch, but Paizo would not have wanted to keep selling subscriptions for a product they wouldn't have).
This is especially true since Paizo is choosing to play things especially nice—almost conciliatory—to people that got those subscriptions by giving them refund options whose market values exceed the remaining balance of their accounts. They're only breaking even on the few people that opt for the cash refund. I'm sure Paizo wishes to reduce the number of refunds they have to pay both for the convenience of their customers and for the sake of Paizo's pocketbook.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-20, 11:25 PM
Well, the potential there is to give someone a copy or two of Pathfinder for free as an exchange for the rest of their subscription, and then get them hooked.

Macrovore
2007-04-21, 12:12 AM
Yeah, uh, I decided I probably shouldn't look at Wizards' boards anymore, at least until this dies down a bit. Coming here after looking at Wizards was a major factor in the excessive snarkiness of my first post (for which I apologize). People's posts here have been a lot more sensible, but seeing a couple of ranty bits here was just one bit too much and I snapped.
yeah really.
there have been, like 80 threads on the WOTC boards (and a couple over here, but these aren't as bad) about basically the EXACT SAME THING. YES, they're shutting down dungeon and dragon. YES, it, in general, sucks, for both Paizo, the subscribers and readers, and possibly WOTC.

we don't need to hear the exact same thing 80million times.
</rant>

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-21, 12:26 AM
yeah really.
there have been, like 80 threads on the WOTC boards (and a couple over here, but these aren't as bad) about basically the EXACT SAME THING. YES, they're shutting down dungeon and dragon. YES, it, in general, sucks, for both Paizo, the subscribers and readers, and possibly WOTC.

we don't need to hear the exact same thing 80million times.
So what if they're also discussing it on the WotC boards? I don't go there. I can stand to discuss it right here, thank you very much.

If you don't want to read a bunch of different threads about the same subject, spread across different message boards, just pick which thread suits you and stick with that. Ignore the others.

P.S. Could you please shrink down the banner in your signature. It's giving me Horizontal Scroll Bar of Doom™, and my browser window is maximized. (I believe it has been suggested that 550 pixels is an acceptable width...)

Macrovore
2007-04-21, 09:36 AM
geez, can't a guy vent?
and i'm fixing the banner thing. just need a replacement that's smaller.

bosssmiley
2007-04-21, 10:03 AM
Not fair, before games workshop warhammerified it, WD was a worthwhile read.
Darned whippersnappers.:smalltongue:

pre-#100 WDs rocked (but not as much as the late, still-lamented "Arcane"). I spent months and more £££s than I care to think hunting for back issues of those in the 1990s. :smallcool:

As for the demise of Dragon and Dungeon; I saw that coming a few months ago. Neither of our FLGSes (or WHSmiths) bother to stock them any more and, according to the annual audit of sales sidebar in the mag, they've gone from about 100,000/issue sold in the 90s to about 50,000/issue today. Something had to give. It just sucks to hear it confirmed.

As for this webzine replacement *crosses arms and sits back* Go ahead, I'm waiting for you to impress me WOTC... :smallconfused:

EvilElitest
2007-04-21, 01:42 PM
Does anyone know if the online version is free and they make their money on web hits or add space?
from,
EE

RandomNPC
2007-04-21, 03:36 PM
i'm going to say they should be free, but probably aren't going to be.
i'll also say add space should be a prime market to pull in gamer products, and thus more sales through adds, but probably will advertise the first thing someone pays them to advertise.
to add to it i'm going to say the web-product should be better than it was in book format (info wise, nothing beats a magazine sitting on the coffie table) but it will probably not be.

note none if the info above is fact, don't go around saying i said it will be free and better and have adds that atleast relate to the audience. i have a feeling i'm going to need to register my credit card to shell out ten bucks a month, i'll see adds for adult diapers, square watermellons, and tape dispencers, and the quality will be poor enough to make orphans cry. and orphans have been through a lot.

Matthew
2007-04-21, 05:58 PM
Hello... New Article is up about this: Reflections on the Dungeons & Dragons Magazines (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070420a)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-22, 07:39 AM
Hello... New Article is up about this: Reflections on the Dungeons & Dragons Magazines (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070420a)
...With really nothing helpful to say.

Yeah, we figure anyone writing about the event for WotC would know what happens next. Small comfort there.

Matthew
2007-04-22, 07:44 AM
Heh, true. Still, I thought it was quite an interesting response to the 'death and despair' on the Wizards boards.

I also noticed that the 'Steal this Hook' Article seemed to be making a distinction between Greyhawk and Generic D&D. Could be nothing or it could be a portent for the future.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-22, 12:15 PM
Heh, true. Still, I thought it was quite an interesting response to the 'death and despair' on the Wizards boards.
Could be. Having abstained from observing events in that particular environment, I can't say for sure.


I also noticed that the 'Steal this Hook' Article seemed to be making a distinction between Greyhawk and Generic D&D. Could be nothing or it could be a portent for the future.
One can only hope. :smallbiggrin:

Matthew
2007-04-22, 05:34 PM
One can only hope. :smallbiggrin:
Indeed so!

I don't know what the main Wizards Forums are saying about it (though, I hear not good), but the Other World Forums (particularly the Greyhawk Forum) are mainly doom and gloom.

illathid
2007-04-23, 02:55 AM
i'm going to say they should be free, but probably aren't going to be.
i'll also say add space should be a prime market to pull in gamer products, and thus more sales through adds, but probably will advertise the first thing someone pays them to advertise.
to add to it i'm going to say the web-product should be better than it was in book format (info wise, nothing beats a magazine sitting on the coffie table) but it will probably not be.

note none if the info above is fact, don't go around saying i said it will be free and better and have adds that atleast relate to the audience. i have a feeling i'm going to need to register my credit card to shell out ten bucks a month, i'll see adds for adult diapers, square watermellons, and tape dispencers, and the quality will be poor enough to make orphans cry. and orphans have been through a lot.

I'm pretty sure it's going to be offered as part of a complete service type of deal. This came from a poll they had on the WotC website a couple of months back:

"Become a Dungeons & Dragons Insider and gain access to exclusive content designed specifically with D&D Dungeon Masters in mind. As part of your monthly subscription, you gain access to features designed to enhance your D&D experience, including:
D&D Insider Magazine, online magazine with new content updated daily, including:
-Product Previews (articles showcasing upcoming D&D products)
-Dungeon Master's Tower (articles and columns devoted to expanding and
enhancing the fine art of Dungeon Mastering)
-Class Features (articles expanding existing character class options and
debuting new character and prestige classes)
-Strategy and Tactics (articles relating to D&D roleplaying combat and
spellcasting, and to D&D Miniatures Skirmish play)
-Design and Development (articles and columns exploring the many facets of
the D&D experience, written by game designers in D&D R&D)
-Behind the Arcane Curtain (a special and exclusive section of the online
magazine available only to Dungeon Masters)
-D&D Humor (comic strips devoted to the D&D experience)

D&D Product Enhancements (expanded content for D&D products you bought, including interactive content such as searchable indexes, extra features, behind the scenes articles, game designer and developer commentary, and more)

Exclusive Content that expands your favorite campaign world
-Eberron and Forgotten Realms ongoing content
-Interactive maps
-World events and adventure hooks

D&D University
-Rolling six-week course to help make you a better D&D player
-Course message boards
-Player tip of the week from D&D R&D

MyCampaign.Com pages that you can design and populate, dedicated to your ongoing D&D campaign, with a Premium Customization Kit that includes D&D art, frames, and icons

Create Private Groups so you can contact and communicate with your friends

Private Message Boards that give you a direct line to D&D R&D

Premium RPGA Membership Card mailed to you

Fast Lane Registration at all RPGA events (online and in the real world)

The Magic Shop, a virtual shop where you can outfit your D&D character

Private Playtests of D&D products currently in design

D&D Character Builder, a program that helps you create and manage your D&D characters. This program allows you to create a character for any D&D game, walking you through the process of rolling the dice and assigning your game statistics, as well as creating a visual version of your character using "paper doll" models and "drag and click" selections of armor and weapons. At the end, you can save your character and print out a character sheet, as well as go to any D&D tournament and call up your character for use, or use the character at the Virtual Gaming Table (see below). With this package, you get to create and store up to 3 different characters or up to 3 different versions of one character (your character at different levels).

DM Tools, a suite of online tools to help you manage and run your D&D games, including:
-Encounter Generators
-Dungeon Mapping Utility
-XP Calculators
-Treasure Generators
-Initiative Tracker
-and more!

Exclusive D&D-related novels and short stories written by your favorite authors

D&D Adventures at your fingertips. Choose 1 D&D adventure to download each month to use in your campaign.

Real-World D&D Search Engines (find D&D gamers, game stores, tournaments, and events in your area)

In-Game D&D Search Engines (find feats, spells, magic items, and other D&D-related topics)" http://boards1.wizards.com/images/buttons/dnd/quote.gif (http://boards1.wizards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=12163417)

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-04-23, 12:20 PM
I suppose eventually, even Great Wyrms have to die.

Still, it's sad to see Dragon go. Like most of the older gamers here, I've remembered the magazine for a long time. I have plenty of issues from the days of high school and college. I never failed to buy an issue (while I was employed) in recent years. There are very few periodicals that cater to our hobby any more it seems. Of course, as noted, the changes of the internet have essentially and drastically changed the demand for periodicals. The move to online content is not surprising.

It doesn't change the fact that it's distressing. Paizo had done a great job with both Dragon and Dungeon (though admittedly I went with Dragon much more than its cousin). I even subsribed to Dragon through the low point of the WotC publishing run where almost every issue pimped their latest release. I think I was reading Dragon for Phil and Dixie at that point. Plus, I'm a stubborn old coot who likes his magazines. Lately I even considered renewing my subscription. Under Paizon, I doubt there's an issue where there wasn't at least one article I really liked, and frequently there were wonderful surprises.

In the end, change happens, and I'll see what Wizards does with their online content. But for now, I'll mourn the passing of the Great Wyrm that was Dragon.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-23, 05:06 PM
Under Paizon, I doubt there's an issue where there wasn't at least one article I really liked, and frequently there were wonderful surprises.
See, I kind of had an opposite thought. At least over the past few months.

It seems in the last six months or so, a greater percentage of the articles have been linked with the issue's theme. So it's harder to find worthwhile content if you don't care for a particular month's theme. At least, that's the way it seems to me. I think the April and May issues were a bit more diverse, though. Still, I think I've been reading it mostly for the comics and Class Acts lately. If we can keep up with the level of diversity in the April and May issues until September, I'll be happy.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-04-23, 05:21 PM
I suppose you have a point there. Still, they had fairly decent themes, in my opinion. At least the themes were far better than the WotC "What We're Releasing This Month" themes, in my opinion. For a while, it seemed Dragon had become a large advertisement for their latest release. Paizo's themes at least didn't seem as commercial or intrusive to me. I dunno, I've overall been satisfied with their product.

But then, I also think Twinkies are a good dessert.

Zagreen
2007-04-23, 05:24 PM
Crazy indeed! Twinkies are properly eaten as a breakfast food. Dessert, psht.

Personally I've always kind of prefered theme content. Mostly I prefer buying just a couple issues that interest me instead of getting a long term subscription that will include some issues I'll like and some I probably won't use, and having more heavily themed issues does make things a bit easier when buying selectively.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-23, 07:07 PM
I suppose you have a point there. Still, they had fairly decent themes, in my opinion.
Oh, yeah. They were pretty interesting Still, when I got February's issue, I just kept asking myself, "What the hell is Perdido Street Station?" I might find reason to import some of the stuff from that issue into one of my campaigns someday, but a fair amount of that content may take a little bit more work than usual. It's just not very helpful unless your campaign is going that direction.


But then, I also think Twinkies are a good dessert.
Blue Wizard Says: "Twinkies are good!"

Tharr
2007-04-24, 03:31 AM
Dragonlance just got cancelled read at www.dragonlance.com (http://www.dragonlance.com) web news.

Leon
2007-04-24, 04:07 AM
I suppose eventually, even Great Wyrms have to die.

Dracolich....


The thing that bothers me the most is the final issue of Dragon is issue #359. It is a travesty that WotC won't allow the release of a thirtieth anniversary issue, such as #360 would have been.

I pondered on that and then thought why they would - 360 is a nice soild number to begin a new chapter of the Magazine with.


I Shall miss them, nothing beats having a hard copy that you can take all over the place and im not a big fan of extensive online reading.
I only buy the ones that i like the look of etc but they are a great source of content for everyone that plays.



now where am i going to find a source of Zogina....

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-24, 07:08 AM
Dragonlance just got cancelled read at www.dragonlance.com (http://www.dragonlance.com) web news.
Mind you, that's not the end of Dragonlance being published. It's just the end of the liscense for Margaret Weis and company to publish it independently.

I'd probably be more concerned, but with last fall's publication of Expedition to Castle Ravelnoft, it seems WotC is interested in publishing for themselves campaign setting material for worlds they have been outsourcing.

I'm kind of curious whether such a trend means anything for Dark Sun and The Burnt World of Athas (http://www.athas.org).

Matthew
2007-04-24, 12:29 PM
Yeah, that was on the cards. Looks like Wizards are bringing everything 'in house' for the forseeable future. Maybe they've finally run out of Rulebooks...

EvilJames
2007-04-24, 04:51 PM
ok... and when the franchise continues, and is available online - and probably better for it - please take the high road and don't instantly 'fanboi' all over it, kthxbye

I don't think it's going "fanboi" if I think that going to an online format is a bad idea. I don't know many people who would pay for that kind of content unless it was in dead tree form. This online content will fade shortly after it begins so it will hardly be better for it.
kthxbye

Generic PC
2007-04-28, 10:43 AM
Yeah, that was on the cards. Looks like Wizards are bringing everything 'in house' for the forseeable future. Maybe they've finally run out of Rulebooks...

Never. They have just run out of Good ones.