Wizard Competition I

[atemu1234]

Original Thread Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD/)

This competition is based on an argument in the above thread, about whether or not the optimized sorcerer build there can truly be better than a wizard. However, to decide which wizard build should be allowed to compete against him, and operating semi-reasonably, I have started this competition.

The Rules:

32 Point-buy
2 Flaws allowed
Variants from Unearthed Arcana allowed, including Taint.
Maximum of three contingency spells- let's face it, it's an unfair spell.
LA Buyoff Allowed.
WBL is 750k gold.
You begin with enough experience to place you halfway between level 20 and level 21.
No epic monsters, items, PRC or advancement.
No Gestalt.
All official books allowed- this includes all first-party materials written by Wizards of the Coast, all endorsed content (Kingdoms of Kalamar, Dragonlance Campaign Setting, Dragon Compendium, Oriental Adventures, Etc.) and all online published content.
No Dragon Magazine- No Dragon Magazine content is allowed, save that which is printed in Dragon Compendium, for simplicity's sake.
NO INFINITE LOOPS- This competition isn't an exercise in who can chaingate the most Solars. Exploiting the rules is alright, even for a small amount of cheese. It may come out of your score later on.
No Tailor-made Builds- Regardless of whether or not Lord Draco uses the build in the original thread, this does not give one the right to make a build specifically designed to counter his. I don't think this is as big an issue, but still, it bore saying.
3e content is allowed, but PM me on how it will translate to 3.5.
No levels in other full-casting classes- PrCs that advance spellcasting are alright, going Wizard 1/Cleric 19 is not. Again, I don't think this will be an issue.


Those are the rules for just this portion of the competition. A 20th-level statblock for your entry must be PMed to me by May 16th 7:00 GMT -4.

These will be judged in the following categories, 1-5, 1 being unacceptable and 5 being exemplary.


Power: This is the most important category. The build must be powerful, in order to survive in the arena.
Wizard-ness: How well this build exemplifies being a "Wizard". For example, an Incantatrix Wizard is very wizard-y, while a Rainbow Servant Wizard may seem decidedly less so.
Elegance: The rules allow for as much cheese as one wants, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. If a build is just "wrong",it will come out of this score.
Style: Let's face it, we're all just here for the cool builds.


The winner will be placed in direct competition with Lord Draco's sorcerer build, from the original thread, inside a randomly generated 3.5 dungeon. This should avoid giving the homefield advantage to either. There, they will be able to set up shop if need be. In-Game, going 2 days without direct conflict is considered admitting defeat. This part of the competition will be held on May 22nd, at 8:00 GMT -4. Also, having a backstory may not be necessary, but boy is it fun. Maybe we should do something with that.

Rules disputes should be either asked in this thread or PMed to me.
I will post the statblocks as I receive them. I will not show the original author.
No speculative posts, please.
Leave the arguing for the other thread.
If you want to judge, PM me. Still accepting judges. Will edit post when I am no longer accepting judges.
Happy playing.

[RedMage125]

Sorry, but is LA buyback allowed? The last post in the original thread about the rules still said yes, but your list above does not say either way.

[Bad Wolf]

So its a competition to see who gets to fight him?

[atemu1234]

Sorry, but is LA buyback allowed? The last post in the original thread about the rules still said yes, but your list above does not say either way.

Yes. I'll edit the OP.


So its a competition to see who gets to fight him?

Yes.

[Threadnaught]

Am I allowed to submit Xamnim?

He uses an Item Familiar which is also a Custom Item of Legacy, and a Custom Bloodline.
He loses 2 Caster Level, but with a permissive DM (who ignores a ruling) gets massive boosts to Caster Level, HP and Intelligence.


I'll PM you the build with minimal equipment and an explanation to the stats, just so you understand why everything looks so wrong.

[dextercorvia]

I would argue that a Rainbow Servant Wizard is more Wizardy than an Incatatrix Wizard, on the basis that it is illustrating a build option available to Wizards which is not available to Sorcerers. In contrast, a Sorcerer gets all the same abilities from Incantatrix (just has a slightly less native advantage at using them.)

[atemu1234]

Am I allowed to submit Xamnim?

He uses an Item Familiar which is also a Custom Item of Legacy, and a Custom Bloodline.
He loses 2 Caster Level, but with a permissive DM (who ignores a ruling) gets massive boosts to Caster Level, HP and Intelligence.


I'll PM you the build with minimal equipment and an explanation to the stats, just so you understand why everything looks so wrong.

You may want to figure out how to operate blue text, my friend.

[Chronos]

My inclination would be to just go straight wizard 20. Most of the dirty tricks wizards have access to don't require anything more than spellcasting.

[defiantdan]

I don't even see how this is a competition since theoretically spellcasters are immortal and immune to everything regardless what what "time contraints" you put on them.

Here is how you pseudo-pun pun. Courtesy of Emp Tippy.

First, how to do it as a psion.

Step 1: Be at least level 17 and know the power Greater Metamorphosis.
Step 2: Use Greater Metamorphosis to change into a Lilitu (FC1, page 43).
Step 3: Use your Item Use (Ex) ability to use a scroll of gate to gate in a Solar.
Step 4: Order the Solar to Wish you up a scroll of Ice Assassin of a Revered Elder Phaerimm with the spells Ice Assassin, Wish, Gate, Shapechange, and Enervation as spells known and has maxed UMD.
Step 5: Use your Item Use ability to cast your IA scroll from step 4.
Step 6: Order your IA Phaerimm to Shapechange into a Barghest.
Step 7: Cast Fusion with your IA Phaerimm Barghest.
Step 8: Cast Enervation on yourself until you have at least 12 negative levels.
Step 9: Use your Feed (Su) ability to consume 3 pre positioned humanoids (helpless, paralyzed, at 1 HP each) with at least 8 HD.
Step 10: Use your Item Use (Ex) ability to UMD a Scroll of Restoration to remove the negative levels.
Step 11: Use Astral Seed.
Step 12: Kill yourself.
Step 13: You return to life as your Astral Seed and spend a week recreating your body, when you are done you loose the HD gained from the Feed ability in step 9. You now permanently have all of the Fusion you's abilities.

That would be 19th level Sorcerer casting with all spells being treated as if they were SLA's, 17th level Psionic abilities and a whole host of Ex abilities (including Feed and Item use). Now onto the next step.

Step 14: Use your Ice Assassin spell (treated as an SLA) to create an Ice Assassin of a Psionic Elder Brain with it's powers known list being made up entirely of powers that you don't already know.
Step 15: Use Fusion to combine with the IA Elder Brain.
Step 16: Use Enervation to drop your HD down below 8.
Step 17: Eat another 3 humanoids to raise an HD.
Step 18: Use Restoration to regain the negative levels.
Step 19: Cast Astral Seed.
Step 20: Kill yourself.
Step 21: Recreate your body. This time your ML becomes 20, you have an additional 423 PP, and your powers known list has just doubled (along with getting a bunch of other useful abilities).

Repeat this process to pick up every monster ability in the game along with the highest published score for each attribute and highest skill ranks in every skill and every feat in the game. Then go and do it with a Greater Deity, although you are going to end up loosing a couple of your excess HD because of inability to make him take negative levels.

The last step is to create an Aleax Ice Assassin of your original body and have him turn into your original body using his shapechange ability so that his type changes from construct to whatever you originally were. You then fuse with it and cast an epic spell that is mitigated with enough backlash damage to kill you after you have cast the Astral seed (this is the only way to get around an Aleax's Singular Enemy ability). You then recreate your body with all of your abilities (everyone of them in the game) and get on with your life.

---
If you aren't a Psion then you can still pull this off by using the Elder Brain IA first (make sure it has Fusion, Astral Seed, Greater Metamorphosis, and enough UMD points to use the Scroll of Restoration) and ordering it to relinquish control to you once the Fusion is performed. Then you basically do the exact same thing as the Psion.


There is Also Hide Life and ungent of timelessness.

[Threadnaught]

You may want to figure out how to operate blue text, my friend.

Nah I'm completely serious, there's a load of iffy stuff about Xamnim, which is why I'm sharing via PM and showing off how much of a munchkin I am when it comes to protecting the party from impossible encounters.

[AvatarVecna]

Does Beholder Mage count as non-wizard casting?

[Threadnaught]

Crap, forgot to put Former Vecna Blooded into that PM for Xamnim, not that it matters.

I highly doubt Xamnim is at all legal for this, but it would be nice to have a quick look over all the things I can do with the character, with minimal effort, against what LordDrako's Sorcerer can do.

I hope the fact that Xamnim is largely unfinished and missing a lot of power will swing things in favour of him being legal. :smallwink:


Edit: Just realized, I never specified where the Ritual of Crucimigration must be performed on Xamnim. In his own Demiplane created by Genesis, that way Planar Bubble can be cast on himself, granting every Metamagic at once without using a higher level Spell Slot.
Also Equipment, Ring of Darkhidden Freedom of Movement Item Familiar/Legacy Item, Ring of Arcane Might, Ioun Stone (Orange Prism), Strand of Prayer Beads, Arcanist's Gloves and Magic Tattoo +3 Caster Level (3 of them for +9, if allowed to stack).

I should teach Xamnim, Rudisplorkery. :smallamused:

[atemu1234]

Does Beholder Mage count as non-wizard casting?

No. Ur-Priest is also allowed.

[Bad Wolf]

Hmm, I may be out of my depth here...

[LordDrako]

I don't even see how this is a competition since theoretically spellcasters are immortal and immune to everything regardless what what "time contraints" you put on them.

Here is how you pseudo-pun pun. Courtesy of Emp Tippy.

First, how to do it as a psion.

Step 1: Be at least level 17 and know the power Greater Metamorphosis.
Step 2: Use Greater Metamorphosis to change into a Lilitu (FC1, page 43).
Step 3: Use your Item Use (Ex) ability to use a scroll of gate to gate in a Solar.
Step 4: Order the Solar to Wish you up a scroll of Ice Assassin of a Revered Elder Phaerimm with the spells Ice Assassin, Wish, Gate, Shapechange, and Enervation as spells known and has maxed UMD.
Step 5: Use your Item Use ability to cast your IA scroll from step 4.
Step 6: Order your IA Phaerimm to Shapechange into a Barghest.
Step 7: Cast Fusion with your IA Phaerimm Barghest.
Step 8: Cast Enervation on yourself until you have at least 12 negative levels.
Step 9: Use your Feed (Su) ability to consume 3 pre positioned humanoids (helpless, paralyzed, at 1 HP each) with at least 8 HD.
Step 10: Use your Item Use (Ex) ability to UMD a Scroll of Restoration to remove the negative levels.
Step 11: Use Astral Seed.
Step 12: Kill yourself.
Step 13: You return to life as your Astral Seed and spend a week recreating your body, when you are done you loose the HD gained from the Feed ability in step 9. You now permanently have all of the Fusion you's abilities.

That would be 19th level Sorcerer casting with all spells being treated as if they were SLA's, 17th level Psionic abilities and a whole host of Ex abilities (including Feed and Item use). Now onto the next step.

Step 14: Use your Ice Assassin spell (treated as an SLA) to create an Ice Assassin of a Psionic Elder Brain with it's powers known list being made up entirely of powers that you don't already know.
Step 15: Use Fusion to combine with the IA Elder Brain.
Step 16: Use Enervation to drop your HD down below 8.
Step 17: Eat another 3 humanoids to raise an HD.
Step 18: Use Restoration to regain the negative levels.
Step 19: Cast Astral Seed.
Step 20: Kill yourself.
Step 21: Recreate your body. This time your ML becomes 20, you have an additional 423 PP, and your powers known list has just doubled (along with getting a bunch of other useful abilities).

Repeat this process to pick up every monster ability in the game along with the highest published score for each attribute and highest skill ranks in every skill and every feat in the game. Then go and do it with a Greater Deity, although you are going to end up loosing a couple of your excess HD because of inability to make him take negative levels.

The last step is to create an Aleax Ice Assassin of your original body and have him turn into your original body using his shapechange ability so that his type changes from construct to whatever you originally were. You then fuse with it and cast an epic spell that is mitigated with enough backlash damage to kill you after you have cast the Astral seed (this is the only way to get around an Aleax's Singular Enemy ability). You then recreate your body with all of your abilities (everyone of them in the game) and get on with your life.

---
If you aren't a Psion then you can still pull this off by using the Elder Brain IA first (make sure it has Fusion, Astral Seed, Greater Metamorphosis, and enough UMD points to use the Scroll of Restoration) and ordering it to relinquish control to you once the Fusion is performed. Then you basically do the exact same thing as the Psion.


There is Also Hide Life and ungent of timelessness.

So, just one problem. Who is your enemy? Where ? I know he is a thread? Maybe he alread do it, but better :smallredface:.

[Bad Wolf]

So, just one problem. Who is your enemy? Where ? I know he is a thread? Maybe he alread do it, but better :smallredface:.

...what? Your comment doesn't really make sense, please clarify.

[Zytil]

So, just one problem. Who is your enemy? Where ? I know he is a thread? Maybe he alread do it, but better :smallredface:.

I'm not entirely sure how you can do better than literally everything in existence. Also, who and where are covered by portfolio sense, aren't they?

EDIT: I'm not entirely familiar with the psion's TO tricks, i don't know if it actually gets portfolio sense, i only skimmed the wall of text.

[GilesTheCleric]

Wizard-ness: How well this build exemplifies being a "Wizard". For example, an Incantatrix Wizard is very wizard-y, while a Rainbow Servant Wizard may seem decidedly less so.


Perhaps this should say something about versatility rather than a more vague "wizard-like"?

Edit: And, what standard of wizard are we comparing to? The PHB one has a familiar, but many folks here might consider an abrupt jaunting wizard to be equally "wizard-like".

[EugeneVoid]

So, just one problem. Who is your enemy? Where ? I know he is a thread? Maybe he alread do it, but better :smallredface:.

Translated as: What if I'm pun-pun. Inb4 pun-pun vs pun-pun battles of nigh-infinities and true infinite growth errors. Who can loop higher/faster.

[Darkweave31]

I submit pun-pun with a spellbook and a pointy hat. so much sarcasm

[AvatarVecna]

I submit pun-pun with a spellbook and a pointy hat. so much sarcasm

I believe that violates the "no infinite loops" rule in every way it's possible to violate that rule.

[atemu1234]

Quite. Now, I have a joke statblock from Threadnaught, which I won't allow. Lord Draco's posts are based off of a poor understanding of the rules; we must respond by having a better understanding of the rules, and helping him understand precisely why a Wizard is considered the strongest class in the game. I don't know if in direct combat a wizard would win, because its power lies in one word: Mutability.

A wizard can change its abilities to suit the situation it is in; it can divine a solution, and use that to his advantage, to be prepared for his foe. This is direct combat, with less ability to change spell slots. Yes, you may still defeat him, but unless you have used something particularly cheesy, he has access to the same tricks, for the most part.

[atemu1234]

Xamnim Rekrolpsidur Dezimitpo

Race: Necropolitan Gray Elf (Reincarnated to Raptoran, grew to Venerable, Reincarnated back to Gray Elf with 18 base Strength and Dexterity, created by Dread Necromancer 8/Enhanced Undead Necromancer Wizard 1 in a Fell Energy Desecrate with an altar)

Class: Domain (Transmutation) Elven Generalist Wizard 20

HP: 511-720

Str: 21 (+5)

Dex: 26 (+8)

Con: - ()

Int: 37 (+13)

Wis: 27 (+8)

Cha: 26 (+8)

All stats above are based on 32 point buy, with 16 points into Intelligence, 8 in Wisdom and 8 in Charisma. Reincarnation is assumed to be used enough to get the perfect Elf body after gaining the Raptoran's Aging effects. If it doesn't work that way, then Strength and Dexterity may be reduced by 6 each without really affecting the character too much.
Each stat is calculated with a +5 Inherent Bonus from Wish and Intelligence, Wisdom and Dexterity all benefit from the Elf Bloodline.

Other important stats.

Attack/Grapple: +28/+28

Ranged/Touch: +30

Base Attack Bonus: +10/+5

Initiative: +21

AC: 30

Touch: 30

FlatFooted: 9

For: +19

Ref: +27

Wil: +33

Elf Bloodline allows Xamnim to use his Intelligence bonus on checks based on any physical activity as well as all Saving throws.


Flaws: Murky-Eyed: Reroll concealment, take worst result.
Vulnerable: -1 AC.

Feats: Collegiate Wizard, Aerenal Arcanist, Faerie Mysteries Initiate (), Eschew Materials, Item Familiar (Bonus Feat), Spontaneous Divination (Bonus Feat) Southern Magician (ignoring Regional prereq), Versatile Spellcaster, Improved Toughness.

A few iffy things here, FMI is of course, Dragon material. Item Familiar is gained through the Elf Bloodline, Spontaneous Divination and Versatile Spellcaster combine with the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF to make a Spontaneous Wizard and Southern Magician is assumed to be remodeled for Eberron, with the Aerenal Elves being south of Khorvaire.

Caster Level: 23 (further +2 on 1st level Spells 2/day, +4 for 10 minutes per day, if Create Magic Tattoo is allowed to stack with itself Caster Level is 29)


Spells Per Day
Lvl0: 4
Lvl1: 8
Lvl2: 7
Lvl3: 7
Lvl4: 7
Lvl5: 7
Lvl6: 6
Lvl7: 6
Lvl8: 6
Lvl9: 6

Spells Known
Acid Splash
Amanuensis [SpC]
Arcane Mark
Caltrops [SpC]
Dancing Lights
Daze
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Disrupt Undead
Electric Jolt [SpC]
Flare
Ghost Sound
Launch Bolt [SpC]
Launch Item [SpC]
Light
Mage Hand (Domain)
Mending
Message
Open/Close
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost
Read Magic
Repair Minor Damage [SpC]
Resistance
Silent Portal [SpC]
Sonic Snap [SpC]
Stick [SpC]
Touch of Fatigue
Alarm
Benign Transposition [SpC]
Color Spray
Ebon Eyes [SpC]
Endure Elements
Enlarge Person
Expeditious Retreat (Domain)
Feather Fall
Floating Disc
Grease
Locate City [RoD]
Mage Armor
Magic Weapon
Mount
Nerveskitter [SpC]
Obscuring Mist
Protection from Evil
Reduce Person
Silent Image
Spontaneous Search [SpC]
True Strike
Dark Way [SpC]
Disguise Undead [SpC]
Glitterdust
Hideous Laughter
Invisibility
Levitate (Domain)
Mirror Image
Ray of Stupidity [SpC]
Resist Energy
Rope Trick
See Invisibility
Spectral Hand
Web
Anticipate Teleportation
Blacklight
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Fly
Haste (Domain)
Lightning Bolt
Magic Circle Against Evil
Phantom Steed
Shivering Touch [Frost]
Shrink Item
Tongues
Assay Spell Resistance [SpC]
Black Tentacles
Celerity [PHB2]
Dimension Door
Dimensional Anchor
Enervation
Ironbones [SpC]
Mirror Image, Greater [PHB2]
Polymorph (Domain)
Ray Deflection [SpC]
Solid Fog
Stoneshape
Stoneskin
Baleful Polymorph (Domain)
Cloudkill
Death Throes [SpC]
Enlarge Person, Greater [SpC]
Overland Flight
Passwall
Planar Tolerance [SpC]
Reduce Person, Greater [SpC]
Spiritwall
Telepathic Bond [SpC]
Transmute Mud to Rock
Transmute Rock to Mud
Wall of Force
Anticipate Teleportation, Greater [SpC]
Cloak of the Sea [SpC]
Control Water
Disintegrate (Domain)
Dispel Magic, Greater
Flesh to Stone
Freezing Fog [SpC]
Hardening [SpC]
Howling Chain [SpC]
Interplanar Telepathic Bond [SpC]
Planar Binding
Stone to Flesh
True Seeing
Antimagic Ray
Awaken Undead [SpC]
Banishment
Control Weather
Energy Absorption [CM]
Energy Immunity [SpC]
Instant Summons
Ironguard [SpC]
Planar Bubble [SpC]
Project Image
Reverse Gravity (Domain)
Scrying, Greater
Teleport, Greater
Teleport Object
Vision
Bestow Curse, Greater [SpC]
Dimensional Lock
Discern Location
Fimbulwinter [Frost]
Incendiary Cloud
Invisibility, Superior [SpC]
Iron Body (Domain)
Maze
Mind Blank
Plane Shift, Greater [SpC]
Spell Engine [SpC]
Temporal Stasis
Astral Projection
Foresight
Gate
Genesis
Ice Assassin [Frost]
Invisibility, Superior [CAr]
Mage's Disjunction
Replicate Casting [SpC]
Shapechange (Domain)
Teleportation Circle
Time Stop
Wish


Elf Bloodline


Level
Minor
Intermediate
Major


1st
—
—
+2 on Spot checks


2nd
—
+2 on Spot checks
Shadow Shaper


3rd
—
—
Intelligence +1


4th
+2 on Spot checks
Shadow Shaper
Item Familiar


5th
—
—
Elf affinity +2


6th
—
Intelligence +1
Intellectual Agility


7th
—
—
+2 on Listen checks


8th
Shadow Shaper
Item Familiar
Evasion


9th
—
—
Wisdom +1


10th
—
Elf affinity +2
Improved Cunning Defense


11th
—
—
Elf affinity +4


12th
Intelligence +1
Intellectual Agility
Rapscallion


13th
—
—
+2 on Concentration checks


14th
—
+2 on Listen checks
Cunning Insight


15th
—
—
Dexterity +1


16th
Item Familiar
Evasion
Brains over Brawn


17th
—
—
Elf affinity +6


18th
—
Wisdom +1
Shadow Shaper, Greater


19th
—
—
+2 on Spellcraft checks


20th
Elf affinity +2
Improved Cunning Defense
Magical Nexus




Shadow Shaper (Ex): At 2nd level, Hide and Move Silently are treated as class skills for the character.

Item Familiar (Su): At 4th level, by establishing a link to a particular permanent magic item you can use worth at least 2000gp, you enable that item to gain power as you gain levels. The exact nature of the item and the powers may vary.

Intellectual Agility (Su): Starting at 6th level, a character can channel their intellect to more physical needs. They add their Intelligence bonus (if any) to their initiative checks and Reflex saves.

Evasion (Ex): At 8th level and higher, the character can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if the character is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless character does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Improved Cunning Defense (Ex): At 10th level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a dodge bonus to Armor Class. You do not gain this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor.

Rapscallion (Ex): At 12th level, a character may add their Intelligence modifier to all Bluff and Disguise checks.

Cunning Insight (Ex): When making an attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw, you gain a competence bonus on the roll equal to your Intelligence modifier. Because this ability provides a competence bonus, it does not stack with itself.

Brains over Brawn (Ex): At 16th level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a modifier on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity, such as Hide, Climb, and Jump.

Shadow Shaper, Greater (Ex): At 18th level, the character can hide in plain sight (as the Ranger ability, except that the character need not be in natural terrain).

Magical Nexus: You can attempt to cast spells even within a dead magic zone or an antimagic field. In a dead magic zone, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 20 + the level of the spell you are trying to cast. In an antimagic field, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 11 + the caster level of the antimagic field. If this check is successful, your spell functions normally.


Things I've decided to give my Item Familiar, base Item a Ring of Darkhidden, as a Legacy Item. WiP.

Least Abilities: Lightbringer, Magical Cipher, Telekinetic. 3/6 Least Slots.


Lesser Abilities: Cunning, Darkvision, Knock, Obscurity and See Invisibility. 6/6 Lesser Slots.

Greater Abilities: 0/4 Greater Slots.


There you go, Xamnim, a campaign destroying weapon to be deployed only in emergencies. Built on some very shaky rulings, in order to keep the rest of the party standing regardless of optimization level.

I didn't allow it because it's based off of shaky rulings. But some of it can be picked up and used in whatever you want to do with a wizard, and other posts will be made anonymously, including yours, Threadnaught, if you want to try again.

[RedMage125]

Where's Elf Bloodline come from?

[shaikujin]

Where's Elf Bloodline come from?

I'm going to hazard a guess that it's a custom bloodline from the "Creating Other Bloodlines" section of

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

[shaikujin]

I didn't allow it because it's based off of shaky rulings. But some of it can be picked up and used in whatever you want to do with a wizard, and other posts will be made anonymously, including yours, Threadnaught, if you want to try again.

Which part is considered shaky?

Elf Generalist + Domain Wizard?

Or the Elf Bloodline?

Or something else?



I didn't see Threadnaught's build beforehand, but I see I wasn't the only one that thought of doing this :)

[atemu1234]

Which part is considered shaky?

Elf Generalist + Domain Wizard?

Or the Elf Bloodline?

Or something else?



I didn't see Threadnaught's build beforehand, but I see I wasn't the only one that thought of doing this :)

I have problems with the custom bloodlines, and the Generalist + Domain Wizard variants make me itch a little.

[shaikujin]

I have problems with the custom bloodlines, and the Generalist + Domain Wizard variants make me itch a little.

Does "Itch a little" mean that you'll allow Generalist + Domain Wizard?

I'll probably work on another build, but would like to know what I'm up against :)

[LordDrako]

Custom? :smallconfused:


Shadow Shaper (Ex): At 2nd level, Hide and Move Silently are treated as class skills for the character.

Item Familiar (Su): At 4th level, by establishing a link to a particular permanent magic item you can use worth at least 2000gp, you enable that item to gain power as you gain levels. The exact nature of the item and the powers may vary.

Intellectual Agility (Su): Starting at 6th level, a character can channel their intellect to more physical needs. They add their Intelligence bonus (if any) to their initiative checks and Reflex saves.

Evasion (Ex): At 8th level and higher, the character can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if the character is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless character does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Improved Cunning Defense (Ex): At 10th level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a dodge bonus to Armor Class. You do not gain this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor.

Rapscallion (Ex): At 12th level, a character may add their Intelligence modifier to all Bluff and Disguise checks.

Cunning Insight (Ex): When making an attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw, you gain a competence bonus on the roll equal to your Intelligence modifier. Because this ability provides a competence bonus, it does not stack with itself.

Brains over Brawn (Ex): At 16th level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a modifier on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity, such as Hide, Climb, and Jump.

Shadow Shaper, Greater (Ex): At 18th level, the character can hide in plain sight (as the Ranger ability, except that the character need not be in natural terrain).

Magical Nexus: You can attempt to cast spells even within a dead magic zone or an antimagic field. In a dead magic zone, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 20 + the level of the spell you are trying to cast. In an antimagic field, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 11 + the caster level of the antimagic field. If this check is successful, your spell functions normally.






Elf= ChuckNorris?

[Mato]

My random input on Threadnaught's build.

Power: 5
Q: How is the build powerful? What makes it great?
A: It's a 'wizard' and does 'wizardy' things.
The build is a generic answer, no tactics, no real combos, no trump cards. It's just a wizard, see spells for possible usage.

Wizardness: 7
I like the lack of prc, but I feel the custom made bloodline rips off the factotum and rogue/monkwhich makes me feel like it just dipped around in none-caster areas instead of using caster-progressing prcs which is worse.

Elegence: 0
Claiming wizard's use spell slots to cast (they expend prepared spells), Eidetic spellcaster appears in #357 not the dragon compendium, magical nexus comes off like it's epic-level, bloodline levels are not level adjustment, elven generalist, etc. The build is "wrong" a couple ways.

Style: 3
Wizard build? It must be a necropoliton elven wizard! Originality is a big fat zero. The rest of it is gitp's most well known, and probably illegal, 'tricks' rolled into one with a dash of factotum. Bonus points for taking the time to list spells, then negative points for not saying which are prepared or not. Then extra bonus points for at least submitting something.

Total: 15

[Threadnaught]

Where's Elf Bloodline come from?

Me! :smallbiggrin:


Which part is considered shaky?

A lot.


Which part is considered shaky?

Elf Generalist + Domain Wizard?

A little.


Or the Elf Bloodline?

Yep, more of this.


Or something else?

Item Familiar/Custom Legacy Item.
Planar Bubble of own Demiplane because Ritual of Crucimigration on own Demiplane.
Intelligence modifier and +10HP per HD, each of which is d12.
Two versions of Superior Invisibility, 8th and 9th.
Cheater of Mystra without the Feat or Cleric levels.
Southern Magician without being Human, because Eberron refluffing.

Also in direct violation of the rules, two Dragon Magazine things.


I didn't see Threadnaught's build beforehand, but I see I wasn't the only one that thought of doing this :)

It's horribly overpowered isn't it?


Custom? :smallconfused:

Scared?

Don't be, there are things just as powerful that are more legal than Xamnim.

[shaikujin]

Ooo... That reminds me!

Is demiplane custom traits allowed?

[atemu1234]

Ooo... That reminds me!

Is demiplane custom traits allowed?

Yes, but time is measured from location. We aren't talking prime material plane time, just time from the player's perspective.

[LordDrako]

{scrubbed}

[AvatarVecna]

OMG its funny, elfs become GODs!!
Dream customization is cool.

We're building full casters at 20th level. Everyone becomes a god.

[Barstro]

then negative points for not saying which are prepared or not.

Isn't the whole point of a Wizard of this caliber the fact that (s)he prepares spells based on what is likely to happen (which requires divination first)? Frankly, I'm stunned at how few "spells known" there are.

Until the DM gives more information about specific upcoming scenarios, I would expect no mention of most spells prepared.

[Threadnaught]

My random input on Threadnaught's build.

Tactics in spoiler.

Planar Bubble originally dualcast for 24 hour duration, always active.
Superior Invisibility always active.
Ironguard always active.
Overland Flight always active.
Greater Anticipate Teleportation always active.
Shapechange always active.
Ray Deflection always active.

Two Wishes Prepared as they take up less than half Xamnim's 9th level slots.
Disjunction prepared for AMF/Epic Casters.
Replicate Casting prepared to copy other casters.


Against another Magic user, Xamnim favours studying his opponent for weaknesses. He'll try to drain the Sorcerer of all Spellslots, Disjoin all active buffs if Greater Dispel fails three times, Wish a Zone of Silence around himself and kill the Sorcerer with his bare hands. Most likely while Shapechanged into a Dragon.

Planar Bubble originally dualcast for 24 hour duration, always active.
Superior Invisibility always active.
Ironguard always active.
Overland Flight always active.
Greater Anticipate Teleportation always active.
Shapechange always active.
Ray Deflection always active.

Two Wishes Prepared as they take up less than half Xamnim's 9th level slots.
Disjunction prepared for AMF/Epic Casters.
Replicate Casting prepared to copy other casters.

Xamnim's Ring allows him to see perfectly in the dark and to create light when necessary, at will.
Xamnim's Ring allows him to open any lock at will.
Xamnim's Ring allows him to move unseen in the dark.
Xamnim's Ring offers him permanent Freedom of Movement.
Xamnim's Planar Bubble effect allows him to use the Locate City Bomb as many times as he can cast Locate City.


Frankly, I'm stunned at how few "spells known" there are.

Oh those?
Those are just the Spells gained through levels. There have to be some limits, y'know. If I were to add in additional Spells, I'd have Greater Dimension Door as one of the permanently active Spells.

And btw, all of Xamnim's Spells are Spells Known, there's a short list of Spells I always prepare, all others could either be cast Spontaneously for two lower level slots, if required.


Not that it matters, as using Xamnim in this scenario is actually Cheating, not Rudisplorking.
He serves a more constructive purpose by acting as an example of the threat level, LordDrako's Sorcerer would be up against.
Also I had to compensate for something.

[Emperor Tippy]

Craft Contingent Wish set to trigger emulating Spell Engine whenever the user casts any of the Celerity line of spells.

Created using Shapechange to Zodar form so as to avoid the XP costs and replaced after every fight.

Use Zodar Shapechange to also gain Blessed Book's with all spells on the Wizard's spell list in them so that you know all said spells.

That alone allows a wizard to instantly replace every single prepared spell with whatever spells most suit the encounter in question.

Custom Demiplane via Genesis that you cast all of your buffs under the effects of for free extended persist on all of them so that you need never spend any spell slots on them. Combine with one of the multitude of methods to regain all of your expended spell slots for your list of buffs to be "all of them".

Your first action of a fight is to use your persistent analyze dweomer to learn all of the magic in effect on your opponent (well unless they have Mind Blank up, which they should).

---

The reason that I don't participate in things like this much at all anymore is that my character sheet would be: Spells Prepared - All of them, Buffs active - All of them, Defenses - Yes, Weaknesses - None that would be exploitable in a straight fight of any description.

[Darkweave31]

Should there also be a sorcerer thread? Maybe take a couple of winners (plus Drako) and do a round robin like tournament where each of 3 wizards face each of 3 sorcerers (9 bouts in total). Tally the wins for sorcerers and wizards. That way build and player become a little less important than the class they build from. Get a couple deputy DMs so we're not laying it all on one person.


Edit:
Also nagging rules questions that nag at me...
True sight vs Mind Blank; Will mind blank prevent true sight?
Since superior invisibility masks sound, does that make spells with verbal components fail?
What is your ruling on shadowcraft mage using miracle?
Should a limit be set on the time trait of demiplanes (say 10 rounds to 1? I think that's the fastest published, but I could be wrong) to avoid planes with NI rounds to 1?
How will you rule the inevitable "we both cast celerity" argument?
Would a dragonblooded race be able to polymorph any object into a dragon permanently (Kingdom: animal, related: dragonblooded to dragon, lower intelligence: otherwise why)?

[Threadnaught]

Should a limit be set on the time trait of demiplanes (say 10 rounds to 1? I think that's the fastest published, but I could be wrong) to avoid planes with NI rounds to 1?

Eberron, Xoriat.

While on Xoriat, create Planar Bubble linked to Eberron granting time traits. 60:1 Rounds.

Planar Bubble to Dal Quor while on Xoriat? 600:1 Rounds.


It all depends on where you are really, I vote for the fight to take place in Xoriat. I am imagining a Wizard moving at 1800mph and punching the Sorcerer in the face. That's a mach 2 falcon punch baby.
Worse still, what if the Wizard charged? Pretty damn close to mach 5, Wizard is about to create a Sonic Rainboom.

If the Wizard ran flat out, with the Run Feat, they'd move just under Mach 12.

[One Step Two]

Darn, I just saw epic was banned. I had an idea using a Racial Variant Wizard from Races of Ansalon to create a character capable of casting epic spells by 20th level.

[eggynack]

The reason that I don't participate in things like this much at all anymore is that my character sheet would be: Spells Prepared - All of them, Buffs active - All of them, Defenses - Yes, Weaknesses - None that would be exploitable in a straight fight of any description.
Man, that's exactly the kinda thing we've been needing in this particular situation. Sure, in some situations it can be a bit much, but right here, right now, it seems really perfect.

[ryu]

Man, that's exactly the kinda thing we've been needing in this particular situation. Sure, in some situations it can be a bit much, but right here, right now, it seems really perfect.

Sometimes there just aint no kill like overkill. In those situations if you're lucky, and believe hard enough you might get to see Tippy descend from the higher planes of existence to simply step on the problem.

[Afgncaap5]

Should there also be a sorcerer thread? Maybe take a couple of winners (plus Drako) and do a round robin like tournament where each of 3 wizards face each of 3 sorcerers (9 bouts in total). Tally the wins for sorcerers and wizards. That way build and player become a little less important than the class they build from. Get a couple deputy DMs so we're not laying it all on one person.

I'd love to see that, actually. Especially the Deputy DMs.

Heck, the DMs could engineer some sort of secret terrain or scenario that they're imagining for the fight, or some sort of conflicting goal. ...that'd get complicated, though.

[EugeneVoid]

Sometimes there just aint no kill like overkill. In those situations if you're lucky, and believe hard enough you might get to see Tippy descend from the higher planes of existence to simply step on the problem.

Also another problem is the write-up.

Sure, if you have close to every spell in existence up and running, we can assume that one is functionally immune to everything, but competitions like this require documentation and writing everything out what test anyone's patience, I fear.

I can hardly play an unoptimized level 20 Wizard, let alone imagine the amount of effort required to write out all the crap a Tippy-played Wizard can do.

[Story]

One thing I don't get about Xamnim - what are the Raptoran ageing effects you mentioned? Also, does the ritual happen after all the reincarnation? Because Reincarnate doesn't work on Undead.


P.S. What is Rudisplorking? I remember a thread where it started a while back but I've forgotten what it means now.

[EugeneVoid]

P.S. What is Rudisplorking? I remember a thread where it started a while back but I've forgotten what it means now.

Jedipotter threads. Don't remember exact definition. Take a look if you want (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357981-Can-you-cheat-at-D-amp-D)

[Emperor Tippy]

Man, that's exactly the kinda thing we've been needing in this particular situation. Sure, in some situations it can be a bit much, but right here, right now, it seems really perfect.

Yeah, but I would have to type it all out.

For challenges like this people don't accept "I use Shapcechange to Zodar up Blessed Books containing all Wizard spells in the game and then use a fast time demiplane to master them all in what is effectively one second followed by using a Craft Contingent Wish emulating Spell Engine to repick my spells at any time as an immediate action."

It's pointless to write out the full list of spells known and prepared because the first is thousands of entries long and the second can be changed every round.

Metamagic feats don't matter because thanks to Genesis and Planar Bubble/Planar Pocket the wizard gets to use all of them for free without any need to take them.

Item's don't matter over much because, again, they can all be replaced in an instant.

Physical ability scores don't matter because Shapechange means that they are always different from the base scores anyways. Mental ability scores only matter minimally.

---
What makes a Wizard better than a Sorcerer isn't raw power at level 20, it is build independence. I can take any Wizard Generalist capable of casting 9th level spells and rapidly make that wizard an absolute top tier beast. You can't do that with a Sorcerer; spell choices matter, alignment matters (rune staff limitations), etc.

Specific Sorcerer builds can throw down at the absolute highest levels but the class can't do so independent of build. That isn't the case for pure, vanilla, Wizard 20 dumped onto any race so long as the character has at least 19 Int at level 20 (and honestly, you can work around that and make it work with 8 Int).

[ben-zayb]

After Tippy's post, I'm now expecting a "Wu Jen is God King" post using the same exact trick.
:smallwink:

[Mato]

Metamagic feats don't matter because thanks to Genesis and Planar Bubble/Planar Pocket the wizard gets to use all of them for free without any need to take them.And what's genesis supposed to be doing?

[Banjoman42]

Here is how you pseudo-pun pun. Courtesy of Emp Tippy.

First, how to do it as a psion.
[snip]
Step 12: Kill yourself.


Psion: "Ok guys, hold on one second" *Pulls out rope*
Group: "What are you doing"
Psion: "What's it look like I'm doing?" *Steps on top of chair and ties rope* "I'm Optimizing!"

[Kazyan]

After Tippy's post, I'm now expecting a "Wu Jen is God King" post using the same exact trick.
:smallwink:

Sadly, no one actually cares about Wu Jen beyond getting Body Outside Body and such onto the Wizard list. I would honestly be interested in seeing what the difference is between a high-end Wu Jen and Wizard are, but that would imply people play Wu Jen outside of low to low-mid op games where they're just curious about the class.

[dextercorvia]

And what's genesis supposed to be doing?

My planar bubble shenanigans are weak, but IIRC, he uses Genesis to create a demiplane with all the desired traits (including free metmagic) then uses planar bubble to pretend to be on that plane.

[Pippin]

My planar bubble shenanigans are weak, but IIRC, he uses Genesis to create a demiplane with all the desired traits (including free metmagic) then uses planar bubble to pretend to be on that plane.
Doesn't Planar Bubble read:


This spell creates an area around the subject creature that emulates its native planar environment.

though?

How can you use Planar Bubble with a plane you created?

[thethird]

Just reincarnate on that plane. Presto you are native.

Or

Craft a construct there and have it be the center of the planar buble, presto it's native and you are not (which is what you want)

[Pippin]

Just reincarnate on that plane. Presto you are native.

Or

Craft a construct there and have it be the center of the planar buble, presto it's native and you are not (which is what you want)
Both look legit enough haha. Thanks.

[Threadnaught]

One thing I don't get about Xamnim - what are the Raptoran ageing effects you mentioned?

Races of the Wild page 106, Catfolk, Centaurs, Gnolls, Killoren and Raptorans all benefit from a typo that doubles their mental stat gains, without increasing their physical stat penalties. I like Raptorans because +0 Level Adjustment.


Also, does the ritual happen after all the reincarnation?

Of course! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W7c8QghPxk)
Xamnim allows himself to die in order to be reborn as a Raptoran (or Catfolk, Centaur, Gnoll or Killoran), grows to a fine old age of +6 Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma, then dies again in order to become a Gray Elf again. Preferably one with the same Bloodline and better physical stats. He may need to die multiple times to achieve ultimate arcane power.
The Ritual of Crucimigration is to take place within a Fell Energy Desecrate cast near an altar within Xamnim's Demiplane, performed by a Dread Necromancer 8/Enhanced Undead Wizard 1 for a whole bunch of bonus HP.


What is Rudisplorking?

Optimizing. If you do not, choose your Race and Class randomly, choose your build randomly, choose your actions in and out of combat randomly, or have your backstory be a random collection of cliches. You are Rudisplorking.

[Kazyan]

While optimizing is always done on some level, rudisplorking never meant "high STR on my fighter"; it was always focused optimization beyond mere competence.

[Aegis013]

While optimizing is always done on some level, rudisplorking never meant "high STR on my fighter"; it was always focused optimization beyond mere competence.

That depends on what the individual in question considered competent. What a lot of folks on this board viewed as a competent character, but not excessively optimized, JP considered munchkined to the nth degree. That's how it all came across anyway, just a radical difference in opinion.

I believe there was a discussion about playing a commoner and one person said it would be OK for the commoner to take Improved Initiative because he's not good at identifying how dangerous threats actually are, or because the threats he typically faced as a farming commoner could be scared off if you just acted aggressively quickly, so he didn't hesitate or think too hard about tactics before his move in combat. JP said that was akin to munchkinry.

[Darkweave31]

Just reincarnate on that plane. Presto you are native.

Or

Craft a construct there and have it be the center of the planar buble, presto it's native and you are not (which is what you want)

So I've always had a reservation with this trick which lies buried in the rules for the extraplanar subtype.


A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Doesn't seem like it matters where you're born, reborn, or made unless you monster entry says extraplanar and description says you're native to the Demiplane of Awesome. Any way around this rule? I'd love to have this reservation dispelled so I may use it without qualms or epic magic.

[ryu]

So I've always had a reservation with this trick which lies buried in the rules for the extraplanar subtype.



Doesn't seem like it matters where you're born, reborn, or made unless you monster entry says extraplanar and description says you're native to the Demiplane of Awesome. Any way around this rule? I'd love to have this reservation dispelled so I may use it without qualms or epic magic.

The bolded part of your quote is part of a larger sentence. Namely creatures in this book. Are you or any of your creations from that book? If so keep in mind they don't have to be.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Eberron, Xoriat.

While on Xoriat, create Planar Bubble linked to Eberron granting time traits. 60:1 Rounds.

Planar Bubble to Dal Quor while on Xoriat? 600:1 Rounds.

RAW, the Far Realm is NI:1 rounds, although he said we were trying to avoid that.

[Darkweave31]

The bolded part of your quote is part of a larger sentence. Namely creatures in this book. Are you or any of your creations from that book? If so keep in mind they don't have to be.

No, it isn't, it was the sentence before the one I bolded. So, that isn't convincing to me.

Once again:

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Thus that would exclude animated objects and most player races used in the commonly cited tricks.

[ryu]

No, it isn't, it was the sentence before the one I bolded. So, that isn't convincing to me.

Once again:


Thus that would exclude animated objects and most player races used in the commonly cited tricks.

Oh. Thought that was a comma. Eh it happens.

[Darkweave31]

Oh. Thought that was a comma. Eh it happens.

Figured as much. Still, it brings up the interesting question. If you were to find an extraplanar creature not in the monster manual and manufacture it on your demiplane would that work?

[ryu]

Figured as much. Still, it brings up the interesting question. If you were to find an extraplanar creature not in the monster manual and manufacture it on your demiplane would that work?

Why not? Even if we ignore that first qualifying sentence the MM still has to deal with primary source rules especially regarding such general statements. Like how several prestige classes have features or even capstones that go against their prereqs, but can do that because their books don't have rules about losing prestige benefits if you no longer have prereqs.

[Mato]

My planar bubble shenanigans are weak, but IIRC, he uses Genesis to create a demiplane with all the desired traits (including free metmagic) then uses planar bubble to pretend to be on that plane.And how exactly does it do this?

[Aegis013]

And how exactly does it do this?

Loose wording on Genesis, with corroborating evidence from Psionic Genesis. When the spell states you can determine the environment reflecting most any desire you can visualize, many people interpret that to mean that you can set the planar traits how you choose. Free metamagics are planar traits (as I recall, the plane of fire will automatically maximizes and enlarges, as the metamagics, any spell cast on it/within its planar bubble with the Fire descriptor, info here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm)). The corroborating evidence is that Psionic Genesis explicitly calls out that you can't tamper with the Fast/Slow time trait (time is as the material plane) when using that version of the spell, but there is no mention of other planar traits.

If that's the case, you could make your demiplane an "enhanced magic" plane which adds free metamagic to all magics cast on it, or similar.

Then you go to that demiplane, make a construct so it is an Extraplanar creature native to the demiplane and smack it with planar bubble while you keep it in your pocket. Or whatever other way you want to go about achieving a creature native to that demiplane.

[atemu1234]

LordDrako seems to have abandoned the other thread, so you may not be competing against him :smallmad:. But, hey, I'm still doing this competition. Instead, I'm going to start a second competition, as advised, to find a Sorcerer build to fight a Wizard. Though who has the +5 Cajones to fight a The-Op Wizard is beyond me.

[LordDrako]

Atemu, i dont abandoned this Thread, but, i dont fight against "custom" players. :smallyuk:
Your "elf" is nonsense.

[AvatarVecna]

LordDrako seems to have abandoned the other thread, so you may not be competing against him :smallmad:. But, hey, I'm still doing this competition. Instead, I'm going to start a second competition, as advised, to find a Sorcerer build to fight a Wizard. Though who has the +5 Cajones to fight a The-Op Wizard is beyond me.

My build will work out all right as a Sorcerer, if we already have a lot of wizards. Of course, either way I'm probably gonna get curbstomped by someone with better op-fu than myself, but hey: even if I get my ass kicked, it's gonna be a fun ride.

[atemu1234]

Atemu, i dont abandoned this Thread, but, i dont fight against "custom" players. :smallyuk:
Your "elf" is nonsense.

It's not mine. It's a build PMed to me by Threadnaught, which I posted as a joke at his request.

Since we're now holding a competition over sorcerer vs. wizard, it seems only fair you are held to the same level of scrutiny as anyone else. Come up with a full build, and PM it to me to post in the Sorcerer Competition I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?415246-Sorcerer-Competition-I&p=19252519#post19252519) thread.

This way, we can prove the point without having one set person vs. one set person.

This may actually help your case.

[Darkweave31]

Atemu, i dont abandoned this Thread, but, i dont fight against "custom" players. :smallyuk:
Your "elf" is nonsense.

Well that won't be an issue since the atemu already said he wouldn't allow it and only posted it to give others ideas for the non custom elements of it. Also, wasn't your "original table build" was pretty custom? :smallwink:

Edit: Yay! They took my advice and made a sorcerer competition too!!!

[atemu1234]

Maybe I should keep these competitions going after this. There could be a Cleric v. a Favoured Soul one, a Druid v. a Shugenja one... the winners could face each other. I feel like after this I should do a cleric competition to face the winner or something.

[Threadnaught]

Atemu, i dont abandoned this Thread, but, i dont fight against "custom" players. :smallyuk:
Your "elf" is nonsense.

It's my build and character.

And to not go up against anything "custom", well, how much customization is too much for you?
Xamnim is obviously too much for Atemu, because there are a few custom items that step into homebrew territory, but for you, how much customization before a character becomes a "custom" character?

Are any of your potential opponents allowed to choose their Race? Feats? Spells?
There's only so much you can limit customization before your opponent must be a level 1 Human Commoner with Toughness picked twice and 10 in all stats.


Of course, there's no problem with having a sensible limit on what may be customized. Xamnim's Bloodline and Ring are ridiculous.

Atemu, I won't be doing Sorcerer, though I may be able to make an Artificer and Druid, possibly even a Cleric, similar to Xamnim. The Druid is Jib Pun, Cleric would either be Jub Pun (the original build, rather than the Pun Pun-esque build submitted for the Great Cheater's game) or a completely original character who is totally not a Shao Khan rip off.

[RedMage125]

Atemu, i dont abandoned this Thread, but, i dont fight against "custom" players. :smallyuk:
Your "elf" is nonsense.

And the judge said his build was illegal for this competition, too.

You're not being picked on, if a build is illegal, it's not allowed. And making up your own stuff is not RAW-legal.

You will be forced to comply with RAW, but so will your opponent.

[Mato]

Loose wording on Genesis, with corroborating evidence from Psionic Genesis. When the spell states you can determine the environment reflecting most any desire you can visualize, many people interpret that to mean that you can set the planar traits how you choose.So when something doesn't say something, it's assumed you can make up whatever you wish and that generally tolerated? I suppose that explains why there are so many debates on this forum.


Free metamagics are planar traits (as I recall, the plane of fire will automatically maximizes and enlarges, as the metamagics, any spell cast on it/within its planar bubble with the Fire descriptor, info here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm)). The corroborating evidence is that Psionic Genesis explicitly calls out that you can't tamper with the Fast/Slow time trait (time is as the material plane) when using that version of the spell, but there is no mention of other planar traits.But when do you do when the rules come out and say there must be noted exceptions?

Normal Gravity: Most planes have gravity similar to that of the Material Plane. That is, if something weighs 10 pounds on the Material Plane, it weighs 10 pounds on the other plane as well. The usual rules for ability scores, carrying capacity, and encumbrance apply. Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane in the D&D cosmology has the normal gravity trait.

Normal Time: This trait describes the way time passes on the Material Plane. One hour on a plane with normal time equals one hour on the Material Plane. Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane in the D&D cosmology has the normal time trait.

Alterable Morphic: On a plane with this trait, objects remain where they are (and what they are) unless affected by physical force or magic. You can build a castle, animate a statue, or grow crops in an alterable plane, changing your immediate environment as a result of tangible effort. Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane in the D&D cosmology other than the Outer Planes has the alterable morphic trait.

Many planes in the D&D cosmology have no elemental or energy traits; these traits are noted in a plane’s description only when they are present.

Normal Magic: This magic trait means that all spells and supernatural abilities function as written. Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane in the D&D cosmology has the normal magic trait.
Are they just ignored?

I guess that's what I'm really asking here. Is everyone so loose with the rules they freely ignore them as desired and are able to make up any additions that they feel inventing. And if so, is that truly how you wish to operate?

[Kazyan]

It's my build and character.

And to not go up against anything "custom", well, how much customization is too much for you?
Xamnim is obviously too much for Atemu, because there are a few custom items that step into homebrew territory, but for you, how much customization before a character becomes a "custom" character?

Are any of your potential opponents allowed to choose their Race? Feats? Spells?
There's only so much you can limit customization before your opponent must be a level 1 Human Commoner with Toughness picked twice and 10 in all stats.

'Slippery slope' is your counterargument to being called on actual rule-breaking?

(I don't care about the butt-covering you wrote afterwards. This is just sad.)

[ryu]

So when something doesn't say something, it's assumed you can make up whatever you wish and that generally tolerated? I suppose that explains why there are so many debates on this forum.

But when do you do when the rules come out and say there must be noted exceptions?





Are they just ignored?

I guess that's what I'm really asking here. Is everyone so loose with the rules they freely ignore them as desired and are able to make up any additions that they feel inventing. And if so, is that truly how you wish to operate?

And just who do you think WRITES the description for newly created planes? That in mind the mechanisms listed in the spell for what you're allowed to do are very important and hilariously general.

[Brookshw]

So when something doesn't say something, it's assumed you can make up whatever you wish and that generally tolerated? I suppose that explains why there are so many debates on this forum.

But when do you do when the rules come out and say there must be noted exceptions?


Are they just ignored?

I guess that's what I'm really asking here. Is everyone so loose with the rules they freely ignore them as desired and are able to make up any additions that they feel inventing. And if so, is that truly how you wish to operate?

It's a much contended point regarding demiplanes and their magic/time traits with no agreement on the horizon. Neither side is likely to budge anytime soon.


'Slippery slope' is your counterargument to being called on actual rule-breaking?

(I don't care about the butt-covering you wrote afterwards. This is just sad.)

Huzzah!

[Aegis013]

I guess that's what I'm really asking here. Is everyone so loose with the rules they freely ignore them as desired and are able to make up any additions that they feel inventing. And if so, is that truly how you wish to operate?

I was merely explaining because you asked, it doesn't necessarily reflect my personal opinion on the matter, but it does my reflect my understanding of how it's supposed to happen according to others (which may not be perfect).

[Telonius]

Sarcastic humor does not always translate well in text or across language barriers. I really hope we don't get to serious insults before the test combat - I'm really curious to see what sorts of unholy monstrosities everybody dreams up for this.

[Mato]

It's a much contended point regarding demiplanes and their magic/time traits with no agreement on the horizon. Neither side is likely to budge anytime soon.That has just been noticed by me but I appreciate the information.


I was merely explaining because you asked, it doesn't necessarily reflect my personal opinion on the matter, but it does my reflect my understanding of how it's supposed to happen according to others (which may not be perfect).And this is the most honest answer I've ever seen.

Just remember that sometimes those imperfections are intentional.

[Aegis013]

Just remember that sometimes those imperfections are intentional.

Just to clarify, I meant my understanding of tricks proposed by others might not be perfect, rather than the tricks proposed by others might not be perfect. Though if you intended that in response to what I meant to say (the first one, that I might not understand fully thus have limited capability to explain) then that might be the most profound thing I've read today. :smallconfused:

[Threadnaught]

'Slippery slope' is your counterargument to being called on actual rule-breaking?

(I don't care about the butt-covering you wrote afterwards. This is just sad.)

Nah, Xamnim never stood a chance anyway. Even if all the abuse was kosher, the Dragon stuff would've got him.
He's built for a game where the DM isn't confident in their ability and may pull out something a little too powerful for the group's power level. An overseer if you will.

Slippery Slope is my counterargument to LordDrako's ability to preemptively shut down any opposition by being able to refer to it as a Custom Character.
Custom Bloodlines and Custom Items are legitimately questionable. I have no problem with Atemu declining Xamnim because of these.
Custom Characters are, every single PC and most NPCs ever, thus why I'd have a problem with LordDrako refusing to compete against any of these.

[TheIronGolem]

In fairness, by "custom character", he probably meant homebrew.

[LordDrako]

Threadnaught,
I know fast que You are Able to Make hum good Character.
I disagree with custom characters.
If you use a customization by style or make any sense , I would accept .
ok?
Make a character without customization or that makes some sense and lets go.

[Bad Wolf]

Threadnaught,
I know fast que You are Able to Make hum good Character.
I disagree with custom characters.
If you use a customization by style or make any sense , I would accept .
ok?
Make a character without customization or that makes some sense and lets go.

That character was made as a joke, its not serious.

[atemu1234]

LordDrako, I'm holding you to the same scrutiny as everyone else. Submit your complete build to the Sorcerer Competition by PMing it to me by the due date or be disqualified.

[Barstro]

Make a character without customization or that makes some sense and lets go.

I understand language barriers, but this is really getting to the point of causing complete misunderstanding. (Reminds me of a girlfriend I had who went around saying that I would "flirt" with all of her female friends, when she really meant "talk". Sure, she'd always admit that it's what she meant, but I could never get her to use the correct word in the first place.)

It is impossible to make a character without customization. If there is no customization, then the character is not "made", it is simply copied from somewhere.

You really should start using the term "homebrew" or state what books and other sources are the only legitimate rules to be used so that nobody has to argue if something is "customized".

From a balance point of view, you should also take a long hard look at what you claim a Sorcerer is able to do. Must of what you claim is not possible under known rules, and is instead relying on this "customization" you seem to think nobody (else?) should use.

[Brookshw]

That has just been noticed by me but I appreciate the information.
not sure what it was worth but happy to offer it. If you wanted to understand both sides in depth perhaps a separate thread would be appropriate.

[Mato]

That character was made as a joke, its not serious.I can totally get behind that.


http://www.zombiephiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/fat-guy-jumpkick.jpg
Name: The cute little john
Race: human
PB: max int/cha + aging, reincarnate to reset physical.
Class: dread warrior monk 7 / wizard 5 / swiftblade 8
Feats: irresistible spell, invisible spell, vow of poverty, planar touchstone, lifesense, arcane thesis(unearthly beauty), improved natural weapon(unarmed), excessive amounts of spell mastery.
Items: all wealth forwarded into magical locations and spellcasting services since you don't own any of those.
Contingencies: antimagic field, irresistible save-or-die #339, favored of the martyr activated by talking as a free action.
Buffs: irresistible invisible energy substitution unearthly beauty using catalogues of enlightenment for wish or miracle, optionally sells his soul for any of those, permanent arcane sight.
Weapon: sometimes it's best not to read into things.

Tactics
1. Go first and savelessly murder his opponent.
2. If go first is not an option, it cannot be targeted and is immune to damage, if he can be seen then his opponent immediately becomes dead and blinded, this is not listed as death effect so deathward is useless and doesn't offer a save either. If needed it has 50% dodge anything in antimagic.
3. If the opponent is dead, hidden, and in antimagic and also unable to see (thus immune to 1 & 2) run towards the spell source and commence savage beatings as a monk vs commoner.

Power: 4, savelessly kills in multiple ways but only 5th level spells.
Wizardness: 1, it's a vop monk.
Elegance: 9, legal and without breaking intent really but it filed for section 501(c)(3) (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Exemption-Requirements-Section-501%28c%29%283%29-Organizations).
Style: 11, who doesn't love monks at gitp? :smallbiggrin:
Total: 25

(that took longer to type up than I thought it would)


not sure what it was worth but happy to offer it. If you wanted to understand both sides in depth perhaps a separate thread would be appropriate.I won't need that, Ryu's post was all that was needed.

His question, who writes the planar descriptions, I feel is best answered by the DM following the rules truthfully and adjudicating them based on fairness and game balance so his friends can enjoy their gaming experience of course. A more raw style answer would be wizards of the coast I suppose but Ryu presented that he writes the entry. And so he must be DMing his version of D&D and has choose to run things as such. The summation of at least one other side and their reasoning was instantly understood and clearly conveyed, his ability to create houserules his players enjoy should be respected even if the answer feels wrong to you because you have a different prospective on what makes a quality game.

[Threadnaught]

Threadnaught,
I know fast que You are Able to Make hum good Character.
I disagree with custom characters.
If you use a customization by style or make any sense , I would accept .
ok?
Make a character without customization or that makes some sense and lets go.

Please retype in your native language so I can attempt a translation. I find most of your posts easy enough to follow, but this one is just too confusing.


That character was made as a joke, its not serious.

Actually, Xamnim was made as a serious character for a game, run by that ******* Druid.

He was posted as a joke. :smallwink:

[LordDrako]

I can totally get behind that.


http://www.zombiephiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/fat-guy-jumpkick.jpg
Name: The cute little john
Race: human
PB: max int/cha + aging, reincarnate to reset physical.
Class: dread warrior monk 7 / wizard 5 / swiftblade 8
Feats: irresistible spell, invisible spell, vow of poverty, planar touchstone, lifesense, arcane thesis(unearthly beauty), improved natural weapon(unarmed), excessive amounts of spell mastery.
Items: all wealth forwarded into magical locations and spellcasting services since you don't own any of those.
Contingencies: antimagic field, irresistible save-or-die #339, favored of the martyr activated by talking as a free action.
Buffs: irresistible invisible energy substitution unearthly beauty using catalogues of enlightenment for wish or miracle, optionally sells his soul for any of those, permanent arcane sight.
Weapon: sometimes it's best not to read into things.

Tactics
1. Go first and savelessly murder his opponent.
2. If go first is not an option, it cannot be targeted and is immune to damage, if he can be seen then his opponent immediately becomes dead and blinded, this is not listed as death effect so deathward is useless and doesn't offer a save either. If needed it has 50% dodge anything in antimagic.
3. If the opponent is dead, hidden, and in antimagic and also unable to see (thus immune to 1 & 2) run towards the spell source and commence savage beatings as a monk vs commoner.

Power: 4, savelessly kills in multiple ways but only 5th level spells.
Wizardness: 1, it's a vop monk.
Elegance: 9, legal and without breaking intent really but it filed for section 501(c)(3) (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Exemption-Requirements-Section-501%28c%29%283%29-Organizations).
Style: 11, who doesn't love monks at gitp? :smallbiggrin:
Total: 25

(that took longer to type up than I thought it would)




Cool build, i really like this build =)
But I need to do Some comments
This buil have only level 10 caster, you forgot your requeriment Feats: Dodge , Mobility.
So you dont have level 6 spells, contingency, antimagic field, unearthly beauty etc
Irrestible errata you increase +10 DC, and you need have maximize spell.
Lifesense only work 60 feet =)
Area Spells bypass swiftblade 50% dodge. =)

[Mato]

I didn't list the alternative class choices and that's on me but cobra strike picks up both of those and still has a feat left over. You also don't need 6th level spells to benefit from contingency and two of those spells are pulled from the campaign pool allowing any sharing effect to work. Unearthly takes place in the buff stage and it was explained. So it appears you are not familiar with the catalogues of enlightenment. For a feat you can cast three 9th level spells from a single domain per visit provided your ECL is 17 or higher, and on further visits you can choose different domains.

Also the terrain is supposed to be a dungeon and arcane sight automatically picks up the magical auras of spells and magical items within 120ft allowing you to zero in and use lifesense, there should be multiple walls obstructing range as far out as that. The build also has freedom of movement on top of potential damage immunity negating most forms of win conditions (sadly not all) from area spells before it's chances of evasion helping are checked. It's kind of the best I could cover there with a short amount of time and base design, typically it comes down to who has the highest bonus (save dc vs saves) and with irresistible spell on the table either you're metamaging it's specific weakness or losing.

And finally, the errata for irresistible splat is contained in a source book that isn't a legal source and already came up.
And do note that irresistible spell has an errata (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD&p=19242578&highlight=irresistible#post19242578) ~Elderand
The errata came in a third-party book. I allow the feat. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD&p=19242586&highlight=irresistible#post19242586) ~atemu1234

[Threadnaught]

*Explaining the joke*

Don't do it! :smallannoyed:


It'll stop being funny if you carry on! :smallfrown:

[ryu]

I can totally get behind that.


http://www.zombiephiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/fat-guy-jumpkick.jpg
Name: The cute little john
Race: human
PB: max int/cha + aging, reincarnate to reset physical.
Class: dread warrior monk 7 / wizard 5 / swiftblade 8
Feats: irresistible spell, invisible spell, vow of poverty, planar touchstone, lifesense, arcane thesis(unearthly beauty), improved natural weapon(unarmed), excessive amounts of spell mastery.
Items: all wealth forwarded into magical locations and spellcasting services since you don't own any of those.
Contingencies: antimagic field, irresistible save-or-die #339, favored of the martyr activated by talking as a free action.
Buffs: irresistible invisible energy substitution unearthly beauty using catalogues of enlightenment for wish or miracle, optionally sells his soul for any of those, permanent arcane sight.
Weapon: sometimes it's best not to read into things.

Tactics
1. Go first and savelessly murder his opponent.
2. If go first is not an option, it cannot be targeted and is immune to damage, if he can be seen then his opponent immediately becomes dead and blinded, this is not listed as death effect so deathward is useless and doesn't offer a save either. If needed it has 50% dodge anything in antimagic.
3. If the opponent is dead, hidden, and in antimagic and also unable to see (thus immune to 1 & 2) run towards the spell source and commence savage beatings as a monk vs commoner.

Power: 4, savelessly kills in multiple ways but only 5th level spells.
Wizardness: 1, it's a vop monk.
Elegance: 9, legal and without breaking intent really but it filed for section 501(c)(3) (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Exemption-Requirements-Section-501%28c%29%283%29-Organizations).
Style: 11, who doesn't love monks at gitp? :smallbiggrin:
Total: 25

(that took longer to type up than I thought it would)

I won't need that, Ryu's post was all that was needed.

His question, who writes the planar descriptions, I feel is best answered by the DM following the rules truthfully and adjudicating them based on fairness and game balance so his friends can enjoy their gaming experience of course. A more raw style answer would be wizards of the coast I suppose but Ryu presented that he writes the entry. And so he must be DMing his version of D&D and has choose to run things as such. The summation of at least one other side and their reasoning was instantly understood and clearly conveyed, his ability to create houserules his players enjoy should be respected even if the answer feels wrong to you because you have a different prospective on what makes a quality game.

No not at all. What makes you think the DM is the one who writes the description of the new plane? The one who writes the description is literally whoever controls the character who cast the spell that created the plane. In what world would descriptive power fall under anyone but the creator of the plane?

[atemu1234]

It's the fifteenth. Deadline is tomorrow. No one has submitted real builds to me yet.

[Bad Wolf]

It's the fifteenth. Deadline is tomorrow. No one has submitted real builds to me yet.

Working on mine.

[Mato]

Don't do it! :smallannoyed:
It'll stop being funny if you carry on! :smallfrown:I'll just try to make a new joke then.


In what world would descriptive power fall under anyone but the creator of the plane?I'll tell you what, there is this thing called the birds and the bees and long story short when you grow up your babies won't be Superman because you created them.

Was it sig worthy Thread?

[Bad Wolf]

Okay, I've decided to opt out of the competition. I'm a monk among Pun-Puns here.

[Threadnaught]

I'll just try to make a new joke then.

That's the smart thing to do.
Smartest thing would've been to not kill the first joke.


Okay, I've decided to opt out of the competition. I'm a monk among Pun-Puns here.

I don't think a serious build (for the competition) has been publicly posted yet. Besides, look at what atemu just said.


It's the fifteenth. Deadline is tomorrow. No one has submitted real builds to me yet.

Xamnim's a real build. :smallwink:

Just not a legal one for this competition. :smallamused:

[ryu]

I'll just try to make a new joke then.

I'll tell you what, there is this thing called the birds and the bees and long story short when you grow up your babies won't be Superman because you created them.

Was it sig worthy Thread?

Child rearing has no similarity beyond the most superficial to what we're talking about. For one it has no clause allowing me to literally have control of the design of the result. Maybe someday, but going further into that than even mentioning it might break forum rules.

[atemu1234]

If need be, I can delay another week.

[Jack_Simth]

As I mentioned in the other recruiting thread:

There's no real upper limit to the amount of cheese available. Victory will go to the best optimizer - and that says nothing about the merits of the respective classes, which is what's challenged. Plus, of course, a one-off competition of this nature? Not actually the wizard's strength.

If you want to showcase a Sorcerer's strengths vs. the Wizard, throw them at a one-day endurance run with minimal preparation. A Sorcerer will continue to have useful things to do for much longer than a wizard with a "generic" list of spells prepared.
If you want to showcase a Wizard's strengths vs. the Sorcerer, throw them at a long-running preplanned campaign with a lot of variation in opponents. The Wizard will be able to switch up spell loadout daily to deal with the threats for that day, and to divine what's coming.

The Sorcerer's biggest advantage is more spell slots and the ability to spam easily.
The Wizard's biggest advantage is the ability to change out readied spells daily.
If you look around enough, both have options for duplicating the other's schtick (it's possible to build a spontaneous-casting Wizard with no spellbook dependency and a lot of spell slots; it's possible to trick out a Sorcerer to change spells regularly).

The difference between Tier-1 and Tier-2 is not a difference of raw power, which is what a competition of this nature might measure (although it'll measure individual optimization much better than it will class power). For any smallish set of things that a Wizard can do, you can build a Sorcerer to do the same. It is a difference of long-term flexibility. If you ignore the spells that have a wide variety of effects (Gate and the Planar Binding line of spells, Shapechange and the Polymorph line of spells, Wish and it's Limited brother, the Shadow line of spells, et cetera), then the Sorcerer will showcase better on a day, while the Wizard will showcase better on a week.

[LordDrako]

As I mentioned in the other recruiting thread:


If you want to showcase a Sorcerer's strengths vs. the Wizard, throw them at a one-day endurance run with minimal preparation. A Sorcerer will continue to have useful things to do for much longer than a wizard with a "generic" list of spells prepared.
If you want to showcase a Wizard's strengths vs. the Sorcerer, throw them at a long-running preplanned campaign with a lot of variation in opponents. The Wizard will be able to switch up spell loadout daily to deal with the threats for that day, and to divine what's coming.

The Sorcerer's biggest advantage is more spell slots and the ability to spam easily.
The Wizard's biggest advantage is the ability to change out readied spells daily.
If you look around enough, both have options for duplicating the other's schtick (it's possible to build a spontaneous-casting Wizard with no spellbook dependency and a lot of spell slots; it's possible to trick out a Sorcerer to change spells regularly).

The difference between Tier-1 and Tier-2 is not a difference of raw power, which is what a competition of this nature might measure (although it'll measure individual optimization much better than it will class power). For any smallish set of things that a Wizard can do, you can build a Sorcerer to do the same. It is a difference of long-term flexibility. If you ignore the spells that have a wide variety of effects (Gate and the Planar Binding line of spells, Shapechange and the Polymorph line of spells, Wish and it's Limited brother, the Shadow line of spells, et cetera), then the Sorcerer will showcase better on a day, while the Wizard will showcase better on a week.

That was the best comment! Congratulations!

Now, I can say I did a build that neutralizes the advantages of opponent...
I'm not talking about the Wizard , I'm just talking about my build.

Versatility: Versatility is really easy to get to me.
Knowstones, Runestaves, Shapechange, Use Magic Device, Scroll, Limited Wish, Wish.
I believe it, do not miss versatility. Clearly i dont need use knowstones.
I bealive my spells selection is enough.

Offensive: I can spam powerful spells with a great versatility of spells.
It really is very difficult to escape. Amazing "tricks" inside it.

Defensive:
Amazing arcane defensive buffs.
86 AC
Amazing 50+ Saves
The most important point is these.
"tricks" for share Wings of Cover with the familiar and the dragon. I can use 3 Wings of Cover per round.
Antimagic Field
Defensive Contingency



This is very powerful, but, It's not highlight this build.
The great potential of this build is to be virtually undetectable, be a powerful bluffer, with great diplomacy and disguise.
I think... it neutralizes the ability to target defense or be prepared.
My target may not know who I am, if I am a threat

Virtually Undetectable:
Hide +70
Invibility, Superior
Mind Blank
Nonsense
Shadow Form
Antimagic Field
Hide in plain


Influence
I can use my influence power to change NPC attitude
I can have benefits of my servants , such as healing , protection , aid , battles, items , scrolls .
I can change my alignment with epic bluff. So I can be anywhere.
I will be bold , could easily influence the attitudes of the gods as Kord or Vecna



I'm sure people will disagree with certain things. but I think I can do what I said .

[Darkweave31]

Is the three contingency limit per creature? Can these contingencies be recast/changed via methods and things?

Also, define 'infinite'. I'm guessing it'll be more of a judgement call.

What is the victory condition? Can death be rendered irrelevant?

Can genesis create planar traits (this was asked before but I couldn't find the answer)?

I seem to recall a limit on summons at one point. Is that still in effect or was that lifted? Does that apply to all created minions, or just summons/callings?

I've never actually played a TO wizard seriously before so this will be interesting...

[dextercorvia]

If you really have no builds, and decide to extend it, I'll submit my build.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm sure people will disagree with certain things. but I think I can do what I said .
Certainly. And essentially nothing that you're doing can't also be done by a wizard build. The Wizard may need to take a different route to get there, but the route exists. What happens when two indestructible turtles who can't even find each other try to get into a fight?

The competition won't go to the better class. It'll go to the better optimizer. At 20th, essentially all Full Casters can pretty much decimate anything in the Monster Manuals without breaking a sweat if they do some optimization. With sufficient levels of optimization, a commoner can do a rather lot of such things by that point. At 20th, with either the Sorcerer or the Wizard, without making use of infinite loops or the Sarruk, it is entirely possible to get flat-out immunity to everything (no, I'm not joking; and no, I'm not in the mood to explain right now).

Few games are played at 20th, though, and few games are played at that level of optimization. Measuring optimization in a quantitative manner to get the two sides "even", however, isn't really possible. As a result, regardless of the outcome, whoever loses will simply pass it off with something along the lines of "well, the other person used cheesy tricks and tactics". Outside observers will pass it off with something very similar, and walk away with the same perspective they came in with. As a result, the challenge won't demonstrate anything. The competition is a pointless exercise.

The Wizard is on a higher tier than is the Sorcerer - and for good reason. However, specific optimization trumps tier every time - and optimization is what any such competition will end up testing, not the ability of the respective classes.

[LordDrako]

The last who tried to be like this build was a complete disaster. I believe it is impossible.

The Wizard needs great cost to be " limited spontaneous " , is in fact inferior metamagic player, still need your spellbook and prepare one hour of magic and has few spells dailies
But the sorcerer can achieve this power at no cost , you can purchase versatility only with his selection of spells.
I have seen many builds of Optimized Wizards , but really , not to be arrogant, none of them offered any risk.
And no, the wizard can not duplicate the offensive and defensive power of this sorcerer.
Show me a Wizard to be able to do this . And then I shut up . :smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

The last who tried to be like this build was a complete disaster. I believe it is impossible.

The Wizard needs great cost to be " limited spontaneous " , is in fact inferior metamagic player, still need your spellbook and prepare one hour of magic and has few spells dailies
But the sorcerer can achieve this power at no cost , you can purchase versatility only with his selection of spells.
I have seen many builds of Optimized Wizards , but really , not to be arrogant, none of them offered any risk.
And no, the wizard can not duplicate the offensive and defensive power of this sorcerer.
Show me a Wizard to be able to do this . And then I shut up . :smalltongue:

You do not understand how high the optimization ceiling goes. Without going to infinite loops or epic it is possible to create a Wizard and a Sorcerer that can both change their spells know/prepared with a single immediate action while both being immune to all finite harm and some infinite harm. (Source: Tippy's post earlier in this very thread)

Classes do not matter at the level of optimization this forum uses when it argues.

[dextercorvia]

The last who tried to be like this build was a complete disaster. I believe it is impossible.

The Wizard needs great cost to be " limited spontaneous " , is in fact inferior metamagic player, still need your spellbook and prepare one hour of magic and has few spells dailies
But the sorcerer can achieve this power at no cost , you can purchase versatility only with his selection of spells.
I have seen many builds of Optimized Wizards , but really , not to be arrogant, none of them offered any risk.
And no, the wizard can not duplicate the offensive and defensive power of this sorcerer.
Show me a Wizard to be able to do this . And then I shut up . :smalltongue:

The reason you don't see the risk, is that you refuse to believe what is in front of your eyes. I showed you a Wizard that had every wizard and cleric spell known. Had 1000 spell slots of every level up to 1000. Could cast every spell he knew spontaneously. Could persist every persistable spell he knew (not just 9 of them). Could quicken every spell (so no need to worry about Arcane Spellsurge). Can spam Twin, Repeating Disjunction to eliminate your AMF. Can Invoke Magic if you happen to get him in the area (doubtful). Has the same AC and saves as you or better. Has all the same buffs to hide (and can actually persist them and the ones to boost cha at the same time, while you are limited to 9 persistent buffs).

I showed you this wizard, and you couldn't even grasp how he qualified for feats and PrCs. That is why you can look at an optimized wizard build and not be scared, because you don't understand. You've got a pretty good idea about the basics though. All we need to do is help you to see how the rules aren't something to be worked around. The rules will set you free.

[Kazyan]

I originally was not going to touch this contest, but that is some good bait there, LordDrako. I shall show you how playground-OP works and submit something to atemu1234.

[LordDrako]

The build of dextercorvia !
Full errors! without feat selection, without qualify your PrCs.
IT was a shame.
Do a complete build and then after we see

[ZamielVanWeber]

The build of dextercorvia !
Full errors! without feat selection, without qualify your PrCs.
IT was a shame.
Do a complete build and then after we see

His list of feats was literally Feats: Yes.
He had every feat he wanted at all times, so listing them all would be an exercise in futility.

[Gün]

The last who tried to be like this build was a complete disaster. I believe it is impossible.

The Wizard needs great cost to be " limited spontaneous " , is in fact inferior metamagic player, still need your spellbook and prepare one hour of magic and has few spells dailies
But the sorcerer can achieve this power at no cost , you can purchase versatility only with his selection of spells.
I have seen many builds of Optimized Wizards , but really , not to be arrogant, none of them offered any risk.
And no, the wizard can not duplicate the offensive and defensive power of this sorcerer.
Show me a Wizard to be able to do this . And then I shut up . :smalltongue:

There is no limit on spontaneity of the wizard if you optimize enough. With help of Spontaneous Divination, Alacritous Cogitation, Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought Wizard becomes superior spontaneous caster with superior spell knowledge.

All casters need to rest to regain their spells. It doesn't matter if someone is spontaneous or prepared caster.

You are thinking too much about the difficulties of spellbook. A wizard only uses it once per day while a sorcerer's runestaff should be near sorcerer whenever she wants to cast a spell with it.

And you should always be afraid of a level 20 full caster. Plain old Wizard 20 still has wish, gate, shapechange, ice assassin, genesis, contingencies (and rest of the spells in books) little to no cost while you need to use hefty portion of your wealth by level to reach small fraction of that versatility.

And there is some abomination called Arcanist in pathfinder. I still wonder about the great minds behind that class. Though this ranting is unrelevant. Pls ignore :smalltongue:

Also, don't bother with PRC entries that much. It is so easy to pull of an early entry it is not even funny at this point.

[Tiri]

The build of dextercorvia !
Full errors! without feat selection, without qualify your PrCs.
IT was a shame.
Do a complete build and then after we see

Are you talking about your own build or dextercorvia's? Because yours was the one that was full of illogical things.

[LordDrako]

There is no limit on spontaneity of the wizard if you optimize enough. With help of Spontaneous Divination, Alacritous Cogitation, Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought Wizard becomes superior spontaneous caster with superior spell knowledge.

Alread 4 feats, still limited =) :smallconfused:



You are thinking too much about the difficulties of spellbook. A wizard only uses it once per day while a sorcerer's runestaff should be near sorcerer whenever she wants to cast a spell with it.

I dont need runestaff, it only help me, but i am not need it.




And you should always be afraid of a level 20 full caster. Plain old Wizard 20 still has wish, gate, shapechange, ice assassin, genesis, contingencies (and rest of the spells in books) little to no cost while you need to use hefty portion of your wealth by level to reach small fraction of that versatility.

See again.
What? I can EASILY use these spells.
I did not so I can use , but I'm better off using them

[Gün]

We have unlimited feats. It is way too cheesy for my taste but there are no breaks on TO train.

Check these spells to understand this trick.

Heroics (Spell Compendium)

Embrace the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I)
Shun the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I)

Or you can do same thing with Outyugh hole instead of Heroics.

Edit: My answer to your edits


Spells:
1: True Strike, True Casting, Hail of storm, Magic missile, Neverskitter, Arcane Shield (persisted).
2: Combust, Wings of Cover, Mirror Image, Gust of wind, Wraithstrike, Creat a great tatoo
3: Alter Fortune, Battlefield Perception, Snakes Swiftness,mass, haste (Persisted), light day, Nauseating breath
4: Celerity, Wings of Flurry, Ray of Deflection(Persisted), Orb of Force, Ruin Delver's fortune (Persisted), SolidFog.
5: Arcane Fusion, Shadow Form, Power Leech, greater dimension door, blink, great(Persisted)
6; Greater Dispel, Antimagic Field(Persisted+widen), Contingency
7: Arcane Spellsurge (persisted), limited wish, IronGuard(Persisted), Project Image
8: Greater Arcane Fusion, Moment of Prescient, Mistic Shield (persisted), invisibility, superior (persisted)
9: Stop Time, Mage Disjunction, Shapechange (persisted), Foresight (persisted)(Drake Helm), Ice Assassin(Drake Helm), Hide Life(Scroll), Imprison(Drake Helm)

This is your spell list. Good luck getting more spells while wizard is filling his 45624234. Blessed Book

[sleepyphoenixx]

With enough optimization the differences become irrelevant. A wizard can cast spontaneously. A sorcerer can have access to any spell.
In the end it just comes down to a preference for maxing charisma or intelligence and just how much cheese your DM tolerates.
Or maybe you like a specific build that works better with prepared/spontaneous casting.

The only difference that actually remains (somewhat) meaningful is that sorcerers get their spells a level later, which doesn't really matter when you compare level 20 builds but does impact normal play.
And that sorcerers only need 15 minutes to get ready in the morning where the wizard needs an hour, which can be useful sometimes but is rarely game-defining.

[LordDrako]

We have unlimited feats. It is way too cheesy for my taste but there are no breaks on TO train.

Check these spells to understand this trick.

Heroics (Spell Compendium)

Embrace the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I)
Shun the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I)



Thanks, i alread know it. I can use with wish, limited wish, scroll, runestaff.
You still need use 4 feat to be "limited spontaneous", still need spellbook, still need prepare 1 hour.

I need not have cost to know all spells.
So, charisma > abyss> int

[Qwertystop]

Thanks, i alread know it. I can use with wish, limited wish, scroll, runestaff.
You still need use 4 feat to be "limited spontaneous", still need spellbook, still need prepare 1 hour.

I need not have cost to know all spells.
So, charisma > abyss> int

He needs 4 feats, yes, but he has an unlimited number of feats. If he can have as many feats as he wants to, needing to use 4 is not actually a cost.

[LordDrako]

He needs 4 feats, yes, but he has an unlimited number of feats. If he can have as many feats as he wants to, needing to use 4 is not actually a cost.

No, sorry =)

[Gün]

No, sorry =)

Yes, sorry.

So if you know this trick why are you instisting on cost of 4 feats? I have unlimited amount of feats. And tell me why this spontaneous method gained via 4 feats is limited? From my point of view it looks superior to sorcerer casting. Maybe I am missing something but please tell me what am I missing.

Spellbook > abyss > Runestaff > Scroll.

I don't need to pull my spellbook to cast a spell every time, unlike runestaff.

1 hour vs 15 min does not mean anything when you have demiplane with time flow under your control. (For both classes)


I need not have cost to know all spells.

I don't understand this part.

@sleepyphoenixx

The more you optimize, more your class becomes irrelevant. At one point you just become omnigestalt of everything you want. But I don't think we are at that point yet.:smallbiggrin:

[Elderand]

No, sorry =)

Just because you say no (either because you don't want it to be so or because you can't grasp how it's done) doesn't mean you're right.

[ZamielVanWeber]

No, sorry =)

Why not? Anyone can gain any number of feats slots with enough gold. Wizard can do it a lot less expensively, but anyone can do it.

[LordDrako]

Ok ok! unlimited feat was funniest.

Extra spell+ extra spell + extra spell... += GOD?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Ok ok! unlimited feat was funniest.

Extra spell+ extra spell + extra spell... += GOD?

That is one, of the many, possible uses for massive numbers of feats.

[Gün]

Ok ok! unlimited feat was funniest.

Extra spell+ extra spell + extra spell... += GOD?

Well. You can do that. However you cannot learn level 9 spells with extra spell. So level 9 spell access is a little bit problematic.



(•_•) It is like sorcerer casting is ...
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■) ... inferior

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH

[LordDrako]

You know what the best part?
Fighter Feat and Abyssal heritor feat , dont will help =) :smallsmile:

{scrubbed}

[Gün]

You know what the best part?
Fighter Feat and Abyssal heritor feat , dont will help =) :smallsmile:

{scrubbed}

You are not following. I don't care about fighter and abyssal heritor feats.

I cast Heroics to get a fighter feat.

I cast Embrace the Dark Chaos to replace that fighter feat with abyssal heritor feat.

I cast Shun the Dark Chaos to replace that feat with any other kind of feat I want. This might be item creation or incarnum or metamagic feat. The choice is ours. There is no limitation on this. (Except abyssal heritor, but I can get it with single Embrace the Dark Chaos, so no problem)

[Darkweave31]

Drako, I think you should start a new thread if you want to continue your wizard-bashing and sorcerer-stroking. This thread is for building characters relevant to the competition, specifically wizards. Unless you have decided to submit a wizard build or make helpful recommendations towards other people's builds, please make a new thread if you'd like to continue your quest to prove sorcerer superiority.

[Mato]

Child rearing has no similarity beyond the most superficial to what we're talking about.Sure there is, you have a lot of hopes and prayers but really the only thing you can change is the environment they live in. :smallbiggrin:


I'm not talking about the Wizard , I'm just talking about my build.And a wizard can have all of that, plus he can alter his spell selection in about 15 minutes.

And has more skill points.
And had more feats before someone mentioned the chaos shuffle.
And has synergy with the incantatrix's metamagic effect.

And I just realized this


The Rules:

All official books allowed- this includes all first-party materials written by Wizards of the Coast, all endorsed content (Kingdoms of Kalamar, Dragonlance Campaign Setting, Dragon Compendium, Oriental Adventures, Etc.) and all online published content.

The villain design handbook is allowed.

Wizard to darklight wizard and...
/thread

[LordDrako]

temporarily grants the subject a feat from the fighter's bonus feat list.
This Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subject's choice that it already possesses.

Sorry, we cant use it.

{scrubbed}

[Gün]

When this spell temporarily grants me a feat I temporarily possess it. After Dark Chaos shuffle I have a new feat. When heroics spell ends, I no longer possess this temporarily granted feat. But I forgo that feat already. End of the heroics removes no feat from my character.

I am failing at constructing arguments. God damn language barrier.




Wizard to darklight wizard and...
/thread

Best class ever. :smallbiggrin:

[LordDrako]

When this spell temporarily grants me a feat I temporarily possess it. After Dark Chaos shuffle I have a new feat. When heroics spell ends, I no longer possess this temporarily granted feat. But I forgo that feat already. End of the heroics removes no feat from my character.

I am failing at constructing arguments. God damn language barrier.


No , WE dont possess feat, its temporary spell.
I will not discuss it.
Its useful to change feats, but, useless for you "unlimted"

[OldTrees1]

We have unlimited feats. It is way too cheesy for my taste but there are no breaks on TO train.

Check these spells to understand this trick.

Heroics (Spell Compendium)

Embrace the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I)
Shun the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I)

Does this count as an infinite loop? If it does not then what about Extra Spell?
Edit: Before you mention 9ths, may I remind you that 9th are replicated by lower level spells long before TO enters the picture.

[Gün]

Well. Here is another way which does not use Heroics.


Ice Assassin of a level 20 fighter.

Fusion

Astral Seed

Kill yourself.

Chaos shuffle all the feats.



Such is the life of Wizard

[Kazyan]

Well. Here is another way which does not use Heroics.


Ice Assassin of a level 20 fighter.

Fusion

Astral Seed

Kill yourself.

Chaos shuffle all the feats.





Such is the life of Wizard

I think this requires some explanation for the uninitiated, beyond simply listing the steps.

[Wacky89]

{scrubbed}

[ryu]

I think this requires some explanation for the uninitiated, beyond simply listing the steps.

Alternatively we can attempt to schedule an initiation ritual. We'll need a lot of candles, a dark room, some vaguely sinister looking robes, and enough people to start a choir chanting in fake Latin. One of these methods is easier while the other is decidedly more fun.

[Qwertystop]

I think this requires some explanation for the uninitiated, beyond simply listing the steps.

First step gives you a clone of a level 20 Fighter, who of course has lots of feats.
Second gives you all their feats (and other stuff). Costs a good bit for an item that lets you use an 8th-level Egoist power, though.
Third step lets you bypass the expiration of Fusion, because when your Astral Seed body is finished and you go into it, you have all the abilities you had when you first manifested Astral Seed - in this case, the feats and other stuff you got from Fusion.
Fourth step triggers Astral Seed.
Fifth step lets you turn the feats into other feats.

It seems comparatively expensive, though, as you need two items of eighth-level specialist Psion powers for each time you want to do all this. And more risky, because you need to spend ten days completely uninterrupted within thirty days of step four, or you just disappear (and if you've started the ten days, someone interrupting you can very easily kill you by damaging the growing body). And you lose a level from the Astral Seed, though you could get most of that back by Thought Bottle.

Of course, "expensive" and "risky" are relative, and at this op-level it's not very hard to just get the items with free wishes and put yourself in a time-shifted private demiplane for five minutes to get the ten days. Still, if anyone does manage to get to your demiplane somehow, you're in a lot more danger if you're doing the Astral Seed trick than if you're doing a Heroics shuffle, because nothing about the Heroics shuffle would prevent you from pausing it to fight an intruder.

[Gün]

Alternatively we can attempt to schedule an initiation ritual. We'll need a lot of candles, a dark room, some vaguely sinister looking robes, and enough people to start a choir chanting in fake Latin. One of these methods is easier while the other is decidedly more fun.

I want this.



Of course, "expensive" and "risky" are relative, and at this op-level it's not very hard to just get the items with free wishes and put yourself in a time-shifted private demiplane for five minutes to get the ten days. Still, if anyone does manage to get to your demiplane somehow, you're in a lot more danger if you're doing the Astral Seed trick than if you're doing a Heroics shuffle, because nothing about the Heroics shuffle would prevent you from pausing it to fight an intruder.

Well. We are TOing now. So shapechanging into Zodar and wishing for scroll of Ice Assassin and power stones for fusion and astral seed is something we can do without getting hit by a Expanded Psionics Handbook on our head.

And everything is easy with a demiplane with fast time trait ( or should I say slow. Confused:smalltongue:). And let's throw a couple of Ice Assassins of Aelax of ourself as guardians for our astral seed.

[Elderand]

Best class ever. :smallbiggrin:

I don't see what's so great about darlight wizard, sure it's a fast spellcasting progression like urpriest but it seems to me that everything darklight wizard does beholder mage does better.

[Brova]

I don't really understand the appeal of shuffling all your feats around with increasingly complicated shenanigans. It doesn't actually get you anywhere, because ultimate power is a solved problem.

You just cast gate, summon an Efreet, and use a wish to get a ring of infinite divinely quickened wish spells. It can also give you whatever bonus you want to anything you can name. Courtesy of The Wish and The Word (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_ Build%29). Congratulations, you have all the power.

Of course, this takes no actual class levels or character resources. You could do any number of broken things with your actual build. You're already the Wish, why not be the Word? Get any of the holy word variants, and boost your caster level to all hell. Or perhaps you disapprove of the singular "you" and would like some minions. Getting ice assassin lets you create a legion of clones that obey every command you have. Or maybe some kind of antimagic field power trip. Or stacking shapechange and polymorph any object to dumpster dive for all the power.

[ryu]

I don't really understand the appeal of shuffling all your feats around with increasingly complicated shenanigans. It doesn't actually get you anywhere, because ultimate power is a solved problem.

You just cast gate, summon an Efreet, and use a wish to get a ring of infinite divinely quickened wish spells. It can also give you whatever bonus you want to anything you can name. Courtesy of The Wish and The Word (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_ Build%29). Congratulations, you have all the power.

Of course, this takes no actual class levels or character resources. You could do any number of broken things with your actual build. You're already the Wish, why not be the Word? Get any of the holy word variants, and boost your caster level to all hell. Or perhaps you disapprove of the singular "you" and would like some minions. Getting ice assassin lets you create a legion of clones that obey every command you have. Or maybe some kind of antimagic field power trip. Or stacking shapechange and polymorph any object to dumpster dive for all the power.

Arbitrarily long power loops are banned for this contest. Using finite length plans to essentially purchase feats wasn't outlawed to my knowledge though.

[Mato]

I don't see what's so great about darlight wizard, sure it's a fast spellcasting progression like urpriest but it seems to me that everything darklight wizard does beholder mage does better.Darklight has better bab/hd and gives stuff like slas, int to saves, and aura of despair (-2 to saves) so it's numerically superior.

You also restart at level 1 keeping all your stuff and reprogress it again. Yes, you can have 23 rank in spellcraft at level 1 by using it.

[atemu1234]

ENDORSED Kingdoms of Kalamar and ENDORSED Dragonlance. As in the stuff with the D&D logo.

Also, by definition, infinite feats with Dark Chaos shuffle and Otyugh Hole is an infinite combo.

[Qwertystop]

ENDORSED Kingdoms of Kalamar and ENDORSED Dragonlance. As in the stuff with the D&D logo.

Also, by definition, infinite feats with Dark Chaos shuffle and Otyugh Hole is an infinite combo.

The difference is that it involves a continuous expenditure of resources - you're not getting an infinite-use item, and the process isn't self-sustaining, you're just doing the same thing over and over again (go to the place, get a feat, cast two spells to turn it into a different feat, repeat indefinitely).

[Mato]

ENDORSED Kingdoms of Kalamar and ENDORSED Dragonlance. As in the stuff with the D&D logo.Which includes the villain design handbook. Check the inside of the cover your self (http://www.amazon.com/Villain-Design-Handbook-Andrew-Ferguson/dp/1594590109#reader_1594590109), the logo is there. :smallsmile:

[atemu1234]

Which includes the villain design handbook. Check the inside of the cover your self (http://www.amazon.com/Villain-Design-Handbook-Andrew-Ferguson/dp/1594590109#reader_1594590109), the logo is there. :smallsmile:

Very well. I just thought it bore clarifying, as I wasn't sure.

If I don't get two builds per competition by 7, as well as a couple judges, I'm delaying the deadline a week.

[Bad Wolf]

Well, I might be able to judge, if no one else more qualified comes forward.

[Mato]

If I don't get two builds per competition by 7, as well as a couple judges, I'm delaying the deadline a week.How the power caps been changed at all?

I mean the chaos shuffle just changes feat entries to "all", infinite tricks are still banned correct?

[atemu1234]

Well, I might be able to judge, if no one else more qualified comes forward.

Am I going to make a Doctor Who reference out of this? Yes, yes I am. At some point.


How the power caps been changed at all?

I mean the chaos shuffle just changes feat entries to "all", infinite tricks are still banned correct?

Yes. Infinite tricks are banned.

[AvatarVecna]

Yes. Infinite tricks are banned.

To clarify: as long as the resources that fund the trick (gold, XP, etc.) are finite for the purposes of both the existing build and their preparation time, the trick isn't really infinite, correct? For instance, if a trick involves casting Wish to forevermore gain 1 extra spell per day, and you can make that Wish multiple times, it's not an infinite combo if you're not using anything to get around paying the gold and XP to cast Wish, right?

[atemu1234]

To clarify: as long as the resources that fund the trick (gold, XP, etc.) are finite for the purposes of both the existing build and their preparation time, the trick isn't really infinite, correct? For instance, if a trick involves casting Wish to forevermore gain 1 extra spell per day, and you can make that Wish multiple times, it's not an infinite combo if you're not using anything to get around paying the gold and XP to cast Wish, right?

...Yes. That is true.

[dextercorvia]

...Yes. That is true.

Psst. Time is a limited resource for some. :smallwink:

[AvatarVecna]

Psst. Time is a limited resource for some. :smallwink:

Only if you can't Time Stop loop.

[ben-zayb]

...Yes. That is true.

Why do I get the feeling that you just signed a faustian pact right there?

[Bad Wolf]

Tick tock, goes the clock, all the years they fly...

People should hurry up.

[LordDrako]

{scrubbed}

[Gün]

Wish: kill you without defense, use imprison and remove your existence.

This is not a safe wish. And there are better ways to remove someone from existence.

[LordDrako]

I still want see on wizard to be challenger without "custom"

[AvatarVecna]

Why do I get the feeling that you just signed a faustian pact right there?

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/451138695274717184/i2NncpcC.jpeg

[Qwertystop]

I still want see on wizard to be challenger without "custom"

First you have to explain what you mean by "custom," since nobody can quite figure out what you mean by that as far as I can tell.

[LordDrako]

Optimized Build dont is custom character.

[Bad Wolf]

Optimized Build dont is custom character.

So are you saying optimized builds are custom, and therefore should be banned?

[LordDrako]

"Elf bloodline" created by Threadnaught

Shadow Shaper (Ex): At 2nd level, Hide and Move Silently are treated as class skills for the character.

Item Familiar (Su): At 4th level, by establishing a link to a particular permanent magic item you can use worth at least 2000gp, you enable that item to gain power as you gain levels. The exact nature of the item and the powers may vary.

Intellectual Agility (Su): Starting at 6th level, a character can channel their intellect to more physical needs. They add their Intelligence bonus (if any) to their initiative checks and Reflex saves.

Evasion (Ex): At 8th level and higher, the character can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if the character is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless character does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Improved Cunning Defense (Ex): At 10th level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a dodge bonus to Armor Class. You do not gain this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor.

Rapscallion (Ex): At 12th level, a character may add their Intelligence modifier to all Bluff and Disguise checks.

Cunning Insight (Ex): When making an attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw, you gain a competence bonus on the roll equal to your Intelligence modifier. Because this ability provides a competence bonus, it does not stack with itself.

Brains over Brawn (Ex): At 16th level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a modifier on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity, such as Hide, Climb, and Jump.

Shadow Shaper, Greater (Ex): At 18th level, the character can hide in plain sight (as the Ranger ability, except that the character need not be in natural terrain).

Magical Nexus: You can attempt to cast spells even within a dead magic zone or an antimagic field. In a dead magic zone, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 20 + the level of the spell you are trying to cast. In an antimagic field, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 11 + the caster level of the antimagic field. If this check is successful, your spell functions normally.

[Bad Wolf]

"Elf bloodline" created by Threadnaught

Shadow Shaper (Ex): At 2nd level, Hide and Move Silently are treated as class skills for the character.

Item Familiar (Su): At 4th level, by establishing a link to a particular permanent magic item you can use worth at least 2000gp, you enable that item to gain power as you gain levels. The exact nature of the item and the powers may vary.

Intellectual Agility (Su): Starting at 6th level, a character can channel their intellect to more physical needs. They add their Intelligence bonus (if any) to their initiative checks and Reflex saves.

Evasion (Ex): At 8th level and higher, the character can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if the character is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless character does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Improved Cunning Defense (Ex): At 10th level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a dodge bonus to Armor Class. You do not gain this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor.

Rapscallion (Ex): At 12th level, a character may add their Intelligence modifier to all Bluff and Disguise checks.

Cunning Insight (Ex): When making an attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw, you gain a competence bonus on the roll equal to your Intelligence modifier. Because this ability provides a competence bonus, it does not stack with itself.

Brains over Brawn (Ex): At 16th level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a modifier on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity, such as Hide, Climb, and Jump.

Shadow Shaper, Greater (Ex): At 18th level, the character can hide in plain sight (as the Ranger ability, except that the character need not be in natural terrain).

Magical Nexus: You can attempt to cast spells even within a dead magic zone or an antimagic field. In a dead magic zone, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 20 + the level of the spell you are trying to cast. In an antimagic field, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 11 + the caster level of the antimagic field. If this check is successful, your spell functions normally.

That was posted as a joke.

[Gün]

I guess he is talking about the build with custom bloodlines.

Dm did not accept it mate. Relax. It will not be used againts you, or another player in this competition. And plain wizard 20 is enough to beat you anyway.

Not because sorcerer is worse then wizard or anything like that, because you think you can beat unresistible 1200 damage. That is just naive.

Edit: Swordsaged.

[LordDrako]

Bad wolf, you dont is the challenger? Whats happen?
Where your IoSV build?

I guess he is talking about the build with custom bloodlines.

Dm did not accept it mate. Relax. It will not be used againts you, or another player in this competition. And plain wizard 20 is enough to beat you anyway.

Not because sorcerer is worse then wizard or anything like that, because you think you can beat unresistible 1200 damage. That is just naive.

Edit: Swordsaged.

You first mistake. I dont have only 1200 unresistable damage. I still have great "tricks" inside my offensive.

[LordDrako]

Double...:smallannoyed:

[Pippin]

Atemu. Bad wolf, you dont is the challenger? Whats happen?
I am -> I don't is I am not
You are -> You don't is You are not
He is -> He don't is He is not
We are -> We don't is We are not
You are -> You don't is You are not
They are -> They don't is They are not

Sorry but I really felt this was necessary overtime.

[Bad Wolf]

I had some stuff to deal with, too busy to make one.

[LordDrako]

I am -> I don't is I am not
You are -> You don't is You are not
He is -> He don't is He is not
We are -> We don't is We are not
You are -> You don't is You are not
They are -> They don't is They are not

Sorry but I really felt this was necessary overtime.

Thanks. =)


{scrubbed}

[atemu1234]

{scrubbed}

What did I say when I agreed to DM? Why did I say?

[Bad Wolf]

Well, actually had some pretty serious family stuff.

[Darkweave31]

Well, actually had some pretty serious family stuff.

Best wishes.

[atemu1234]

Well, actually had some pretty serious family stuff.

I hope it turns out alright for you. Are we talking mother-turned -into-a-cyberman serious, or family trapped in another dimension serious?

I am incredibly sorry I felt the urge to do that joke. I really do hope it turns out well for you.

[Bad Wolf]

I hope it turns out alright for you. Are we talking mother-turned -into-a-cyberman serious, or family trapped in another dimension serious?

I am incredibly sorry I felt the urge to do that joke. I really do hope it turns out well for you.

Nah, everything worked itself out. Mostly.

[atemu1234]

Nah, everything worked itself out. Mostly.

*Offers internet hug*

[Bad Wolf]

*Offers internet hug*
I don't really do hugs. Everyone only gets one hug (even internet hugs), so you might want to save that for a special occasion.

[atemu1234]

I don't really do hugs. Everyone only gets one hug (even internet hugs), so you might want to save that for a special occasion.

*Offers cold internet handshake*

[dextercorvia]

Well then *optimizer fist bump*.

Question about years, can we assume 365 days in a year?

[AvatarVecna]

Also, are abilities that function X/day recharged by taking a "full rest"?

[atemu1234]

Well then *optimizer fist bump*.

Question about years, can we assume 365 days in a year?

Yes. Yes you may.

[Bad Wolf]

Every question sounds like a deal with the devil.

[AvatarVecna]

Every question sounds like a deal with the devil.

That's because each one is presented in a reasonable and logical fashion...until you remember that we're building characters for a high tier TO competition.

[atemu1234]

Every question sounds like a deal with the devil.

I am simply one hell of a Dungeon Master.

[Aegis013]

I am simply one hell of a Dungeon Master.

What about the other eight?

[Bad Wolf]

What about the other eight?

Too busy flaying rule-lawyers alive.

[AvatarVecna]

Too busy flaying rule-lawyers alive.

And all we did was ask innocent, hypothetical questions, and suddenyl we were being given first-hand experience with the violence inherent in the gaming system.

[atemu1234]

And all we did was ask innocent, hypothetical questions, and suddenyl we were being given first-hand experience with the violence inherent in the gaming system.

Violence? In my system? Where? I will end them with with my hellsword Azariel, in the name of my daemonic patrons.
Not a real angelic/demonic name. And apparently I am an Incubi Blackguard named Merezriel.

[Threadnaught]

LordDrako I asked a few pages ago that you explain what youu mean by "custom character" in your native language, so I might attempt to figure out just what in Baator you're trying to say.
If this has already been done and upset the mods, then place it in a spoiler. That way they should be more accommodating, as others won't have to read something they probably wouldn't understand.

As for the Elf, Kobold and Advanced Warforged Bloodlines.
These are not Custom Characters, these are Custom Bloodlines, not Characters.
Legacy Item Familiar is a Custom Item, not a "Character". Unless DM decides to give it a personality.

A Custom Character is any Character that isn't prebuilt in an official source.

[LordDrako]

{scrubbed}

[nyjastul69]

{scrubbed}

On topic, LordDrako, please submit a build that supports your assertations.

[Threadnaught]

{scrubbed}

Answer the question and stop dancing. I know what others mean when they refer to Custom Bloodlines, Custom Items and Custom Legacy Items, but not what you mean when you say Custom Characters, or just "Custom".

I want to know what you're referring to, but you're not complying, which causes my continued belief that you're only willing to fight against one of the poorly optimized Wizards printed in one of WotC's books.


{scrubbed}

I have one question to anyone using an Antimagic Field, this includes you.


How are you still able to cast Spells and have your buffs active? Some things need mentioning.

[LordDrako]

Selective Spell ( Spellguard of Silverymoon )
If i choose my target, change the antimagic field to affect only the target.

[OldTrees1]

*Taking your side for a moment*

The way these other forum members have designed this test makes it so you lose by default if you don't personally submit a Sorcerer build to the DM. So you really do need to submit a build that the DM approves. If you are willing to do so, then you can save yourself a lot of rude comments if you publicly state "I have submitted a sorcerer build to atemu1234".

*Back to impartial*

@atemu1234
If you would publicly confirm when this happens you would improve the discourse in this thread.

[thethird]

Selective Spell ( Spellguard of Silverymoon )
If i choose my target, change the antimagic field to affect only the target.

It doesn't work that way. Selective spell doesn't let you say "I'm not affected" it let's you say "creatures with the dragonblood subtype (which I have) are not affected" but if your opponent happens to have the subtype he won't be affected. I used dragonblood as an example since I'm being nice to you and your pet dragon, of course your ice assassins won't be able to cast because they do not have the dragonblood subtype.

Alternatively you would need to determine the opponent type/subtype and hope it doesn't overlap with yours or your minions so the antimagic field only affects him. But this will expose you to the minions and summons of your opponent.

[Darkweave31]

{scrubbed}

Well I can't speak for everyone, but in my case I'm no longer building a wizard because you constantly try to goad people, fail to debate things in a well-reasoned manner, have a tenuous grasp of the rules at best, and are no longer worth the time or effort to even outline a build. I'd much rather spend my time preparing a game for my friends.

[LordDrako]

I am a Dragon type, cold Sub.
My Silvery Dragon, is Dragon , Cold.

No problems. Shapechange can change everybody. :smallbiggrin:
My Ice Assassin have another different "Shapechange" and another Selective Spell :smallbiggrin:
Maybe Shadesteel golem (Its crazy)
Maybe Deathshierker

[thethird]

I am a Dragon type, cold Sub.
My Silvery Dragon, is Dragon , Cold.

No problems. Shapechange can change everybody. :smallbiggrin:
My Ice Assassin have another different "Shapechange" and another Selective Spell :smallbiggrin:

Are you aware that antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) is centered around the caster and that the ice assassin's aren't you so you cannot use selective spells on their spells?

[LordDrako]

You are aware that antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) is centered in the caster and that the ice assassin's aren't you so you cannot use selective spells on their spells?

Yeah, but they have selective spell too. Preparing Your own selective spell to new form.
The best part is that they use epic disguise , then you can not identify who the real.

[Bad Wolf]

Drako, is your build completed?

[thethird]

So your plan is to use antimagic field with selective spell (cold subtype) and then shapechange only to creatures with the cold subtype?

[atemu1234]

I still have yet to receive a single build. Deadline is delayed to May 23rd, 7 o'clock at GMT -4.

[LordDrako]

So your plan is to use antimagic field with selective spell (cold subtype) and then shapechange only to creatures with the cold subtype?

Dragon and cold subtype. To me and my dragon, but, i can change it.
My Ice Assassins have another type and another selective spell.
I can select only you to be affected.
The best part is that they use epic disguise , then you can not identify who the real.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-O_Y23Z-nMrQ/Ue7XmD3lbXI/AAAAAAAAAiQ/SJAwRMdGsJw/s1600/Agent-Smith-the-matrix-1954803-1280-1024.jpg

[atemu1234]

Dragon and cold subtype. To me and my dragon, but, i can change it.
My Ice Assassins have another type and another selective spell.
I can select only you to be affected.
The best part is that they use epic disguise , then you can not identify who the real.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-O_Y23Z-nMrQ/Ue7XmD3lbXI/AAAAAAAAAiQ/SJAwRMdGsJw/s1600/Agent-Smith-the-matrix-1954803-1280-1024.jpg

Do you have a build you're going to submit, or are you going to move a discussion I outright said not to have here?

[LordDrako]

{scrubbed}

[RedMage125]

Lord Drako

This thread is for submitting builds for the competition. If you wish to keep arguing about your illegal build, start another thread to continue the one which was locked. I could start one for you, but it's better if the Original Poster keeps it going.

[atemu1234]

LordDrako, you have submitted a trick that does not work and posted part of a build on another thread. Type up the whole thing and PM it to me.

[LordDrako]

I will stop saying about my build and tatics, i still have more "tricks".

I sincerely hope to see Something compilation wizard here.


http://i.imgur.com/ijsq6qJ.jpg

[nyjastul69]

{scrubbed}

[Mato]

Build #2
Titled "Is he serious or not?"

Half-elf wizard 5 / prestige bard 5 / spelldancer 1 / mindebender 1 / fighter 3 / psychic fighter 3 / marshal 1 / warlock 1
PB: max int/cha.
Feats: spelldancer required, extend/persist, mindsight, skill focus & persuasive, enhance item, using flaws/chaos-shuffled-locations as needed.
Skills: bluff & profession.
Notable spells: glibness, tongues, devil's ego, righteous aura.
Notable items: admiral's bicorne, cloak of charisma +6, horseshoes of flame, masterwork tool of bluffing, ring of the white wyrm, silvertongued mask, shirt of wraith stalking, a customized runestaff of awesome, wished ability bonuses, a warm blanket, an axe.

Tactics
Persist desired spells.

Run around yelling "it's safe and it's a good idea do your best to keep casting dispelling effects on your self.", this is not a general interaction but free mercian speech, and the build's voice is amplified an additional 100ft.
Cha: 44, 18 starting, +6 enhancement, +4 inherent, +4 profane, +4 sacred, +6 horseshoes, +2 ring.
Bluff: 1d20+105, 23 ranks, +2 racial, +17 cha, +6 beguiling, +30 competence, +2 circumstantial, +4 insight, +3 skill focus, +2 persuasive, +3 familiar, and +17 for being really motivated.
This is translated in every single language, including drow sign language.

On a failed sense motive they believe it's totally safe and it's a good idea to totally spam disjunction and dispel on them selves until they have no more spell slots to do so destroying their items and enchantments.

Once the stripped mage is found, the build starts talking about how it's a good idea to take a nap. For cuddle points it even throws a warm blanket over them.
Which totally counts are the lamest attempt to tie them up ever. Now helpless they are subject to a successful execution by an ax.
Backup: If the opponent is undead, they can't be detected. That'll put the fear of god into them when the voice rings out.

Score
Power: -10, 3 levels of fighter? of psychic fighter? omg!
Wizardness: 3, well it uses wizard I supposed.
Elegance: 12, flawless victory (or colossal failure)
Style: 20, spoony bard ftw!

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread re-opened upon review.

Please cease any kind of discussion unrelated to the competition that this thread is based on. If you want to discuss unrelated topics, do so in an appropriate thread.


LordDrako I asked a few pages ago that you explain what youu mean by "custom character" in your native language, so I might attempt to figure out just what in Baator you're trying to say.
If this has already been done and upset the mods, then place it in a spoiler. That way they should be more accommodating, as others won't have to read something they probably wouldn't understand.

This is actually not allowed by the rules, under "Please Don't" offenses. Please avoid having discussions or entire posts in languages other than English. Putting the post in a spoiler tag does not create an exception to the rules.

[LordDrako]

Build #2
Titled "Is he serious or not?"

Half-elf wizard 5 / prestige bard 5 / spelldancer 1 / mindebender 1 / fighter 3 / psychic fighter 3 / marshal 1 / warlock 1
PB: max int/cha.
Feats: spelldancer required, extend/persist, mindsight, skill focus & persuasive, enhance item, using flaws/chaos-shuffled-locations as needed.
Skills: bluff & profession.
Notable spells: glibness, tongues, devil's ego, righteous aura.
Notable items: admiral's bicorne, cloak of charisma +6, horseshoes of flame, masterwork tool of bluffing, ring of the white wyrm, silvertongued mask, shirt of wraith stalking, a customized runestaff of awesome, wished ability bonuses, a warm blanket, an axe.

Tactics
Persist desired spells.

Run around yelling "it's safe and it's a good idea do your best to keep casting dispelling effects on your self.", this is not a general interaction but free mercian speech, and the build's voice is amplified an additional 100ft.
Cha: 44, 18 starting, +6 enhancement, +4 inherent, +4 profane, +4 sacred, +6 horseshoes, +2 ring.
Bluff: 1d20+105, 23 ranks, +2 racial, +17 cha, +6 beguiling, +30 competence, +2 circumstantial, +4 insight, +3 skill focus, +2 persuasive, +3 familiar, and +17 for being really motivated.
This is translated in every single language, including drow sign language.

On a failed sense motive they believe it's totally safe and it's a good idea to totally spam disjunction and dispel on them selves until they have no more spell slots to do so destroying their items and enchantments.

Once the stripped mage is found, the build starts talking about how it's a good idea to take a nap. For cuddle points it even throws a warm blanket over them.
Which totally counts are the lamest attempt to tie them up ever. Now helpless they are subject to a successful execution by an ax.
Backup: If the opponent is undead, they can't be detected. That'll put the fear of god into them when the voice rings out.

Score
Power: -10, 3 levels of fighter? of psychic fighter? omg!
Wizardness: 3, well it uses wizard I supposed.
Elegance: 12, flawless victory (or colossal failure)
Style: 20, spoony bard ftw!


Sorry, but, You are not qualify for prestige bard, not qualify to spelldancer, only level 4 spell.
You have bad super limited feat selection, you only increase diplomacy... terrible build;

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sorry, but, You are not qualify for prestige bard, not qualify to spelldancer, only level 4 spell.
You have bad super limited feat selection, you only increase diplomacy... terrible build;
You don't understand; the order of the levels given at the top is not neccessarily the order in which you take the levels. Most likely, he'd take spelldancer and prestige bard after the fighter levels, to take care of the feat and base attack requirements respectively. There are 10 feats listed in his build (four are under 'spelldancer required'), and he has 7 base feats, plus one from wizard and two from fighter, two from psychic warrior (I think), and one from marshal. Qualifying for prestige classes is easily managed.

As for being a terrible build... so is yours, and at least this one is legal.

[OldTrees1]

You don't understand; the order of the levels given at the top is not neccessarily the order in which you take the levels.

Why are they written that way? Seems to me that writing the level order is more important than the level ratio when it comes to build competitions.

[LordDrako]

He dont is qualify to use MindBender, he need cast level 5 arcane spell, he dont is qualify to prestige bard, he need Perform rank 8, he cant be spelldancer Perform 6 ranks (dance)
What's your banned school?

[OldTrees1]

He dont is qualify to use MindBender, he need cast level 5 arcane spell, he dont is qualify to prestige bard, he need Perform rank 8, he cant be spelldancer Perform 6 ranks (dance)
What's your banned school?

Mindbender requires 5th level spells (obtained by Wizard[5]+Spelldancer[1]+Prestige Bard[3]= 9th level casting = 5th level spells)
Prestige Bard requires Preform 8 (obtained by 13th crossclass, during the 1 level of Spelldancer, or a mix of the 2)
Spelldancer requires Preform 6 (obtained by 9th crossclass)

[LordDrako]

Obtainted 9th cross?

[TheIronGolem]

Obtainted 9th cross?

That means that, at 9th level, he was able to put his 6th rank into the cross-class skill, thus qualifying for Spelldancer at 10th.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Mindbender requires arcane caster level 5, not 5th-level spells.

@OldTrees: I have no idea why they are written in that order, presumably the author was in a hurry, and just tacked on some bonuses and bonus feats to fill out the requirements. There are more bonus feats in the build than strictly speaking required (assuming psychic fighter = psychic warrior), which again suggests a little hurry somewhere.


If you go marshal 1/fighter 3/psychic warrior 3/warlock 1/wizard 5/mindbender 1/spelldancer 1/prestige bard 5, you have 13 base class levels to get your cross-class skill ranks together. That's very easy. Marshal has the highest skill points, out of all the base classes in the build, so it's at first level. It also has Perform as a class skill.

[LordDrako]

What class to get 7 perform? :smallconfused:

[OldTrees1]

Obtainted 9th cross?
Characters can spend skill points on skills that are not on their skill list. The skill rank maximum for crossclass skills is half that of class skills.

Ex: If I wanted my Sorceror to have 6 ranks of Knowledge(Religion) for some reason, I could spend 2 skill points per rank. My cross class skill rank maximum would be (HD + 3)/2. So at 9HD my maximum would be (9+3)/2 = 12/2 = 6 ranks.


@OldTrees: I have no idea why they are written in that order, presumably the author

My comment was more picking fun at the class level ratio method than honest wondering.


What class to get 7 perform? :smallconfused:

You do know you can buy more than 1 rank in a skill per level as long as you don't exceed you maximum right?
9 levels to get 6 ranks cross class + 2 ranks from the single level of spelldancer(since it is a class skill for spelldancer the skill rank maximum is now 13 so he can buy 2 ranks this level)

[LordDrako]

I didnt know it, what book?
Point Distribuition dont is Rank.

[OldTrees1]

I didnt know it, what book?
Point Distribuition dont is Rank.

Player's Handbook has the rules for skill points, skill ranks, class skill/cross class skill rank costs, and class skill/cross class skill rank maximums.

Example:

Elf Fighter 1 / Rogue 1 (10 Int)

Fighter 1(2x4=8 skill points): Spend 4 skill points each of the cross class skills Listen and Spot to buy 2 ranks each
Listen[2], Spot[2]
Rogue 1(+8 skill points): Spend 3 skill points each on the now class skills Listen and Spot to buy 3 ranks each. Then put the remaining 2 skill points into Search
Listen[5], Search[2], Spot[5]

[TheIronGolem]

I didnt know it, what book?
Point Distribuition dont is Rank.

Yes, it is. The only difference is that if the skill is cross-class (meaning that it isn't a class skill for the character), then it costs 2 points to get a rank of the skill instead of 1.

[RolkFlameraven]

Unless they have able learner in that case its only one point for cross class, however the max is still limited unless one of their classes have it as a class skill.

[dextercorvia]

Question for the DM:

Is there anything I need to know about updating Spelldancer (MoF) to 3.5. If it matters I'm only taking the 1st level.

Also, your PM box is full.

[atemu1234]

Question for the DM:

Is there anything I need to know about updating Spelldancer (MoF) to 3.5. If it matters I'm only taking the 1st level.

Also, your PM box is full.

I have emptied my inbox. Proceed to PM the full question, if so inclined. Otherwise... state the direct issues.

[Phaederkiel]

I honestly do not think that you will be able to have a fair competition, simply because the participants Ideas of what constitutes "fair" are too far from each other. Or what the rules should be. Or how rules work.

In all earnestness, I think the playground should rise to the occasion and defeat that sorcerer with somethink traditionally thought weaker than a sorcerer.
How about a monk, tippy? Can you do it with a monk :smallbiggrin: ?

That the wizard should win is painfully obvious to everyone but drako, and I cannot decide if this whole affair looks more like a bullying from the playground or a trolling by drako.

also: hiho dex! Nice to see you fighting contests again...

[dextercorvia]

also: hiho dex! Nice to see you fighting contests again...

It's good to be back. I think your assessment is correct, but I've never been one to shy from a fight just because the outcome was obvious to me.

Can you believe that Drako turned me down when I suggested we try it at level 1?

[Bad Wolf]

How about a monk, tippy? Can you do it with a monk :smallbiggrin: ?


Tippy could beat it in three rounds with a Mane.

[nyjastul69]

I honestly do not think that you will be able to have a fair competition, simply because the participants Ideas of what constitutes "fair" are too far from each other. Or what the rules should be. Or how rules work.

In all earnestness, I think the playground should rise to the occasion and defeat that sorcerer with somethink traditionally thought weaker than a sorcerer.
How about a monk, tippy? Can you do it with a monk :smallbiggrin: ?

That the wizard should win is painfully obvious to everyone but drako, and I cannot decide if this whole affair looks more like a bullying from the playground or a trolling by drako.

also: hiho dex! Nice to see you fighting contests again...

Shoosh dude. The T word is not be spoken here.

[EugeneVoid]

I bet Rubik could do it, considering his Terrifically Terrible Trial build.

[Phaederkiel]

which I officially love.
I am not sure, though, how much of the build will still work in an antimagic field. Is there any trick included for dealing with that?
(btw: what happens when two magical sources of antimagic overlap? Because I think one of the keys to showing drako the error of his ways :smallwink: is to get rid of that field as elegantly as possible.

[ExLibrisMortis]

(btw: what happens when two magical sources of antimagic overlap?
Overlapping antimagic fields form one big antimagic field. More precisely: "Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other".

[dextercorvia]

Overlapping antimagic fields form one big antimagic field. More precisely: "Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other".

Which is why I almost made a Wizard based Spellguard build, but I still didn't want to nerf my own buffs and items.

[Brova]

Question: What exactly is "no infinite loops" blocking? I know I can't gate in Solars to gate in more Solars forever, but can I gate in a Solar for a fight? Or, for my purposes, can I shapechange into an animal, awaken myself (turning into a magical beast), then turn into an animal again? That trick can be done as many times as I want, but is constrained by XP and spell slots.

Basically, can I execute something that would loop infinitely some finite number of times? Also, is there a difference between loops like the Solar loop (which give you new resources when used) and loops like awaken which don't.

Also, is there a generally accepted rule on what "gets 3d6 Intelligence" means? It's not phrased as a bonus (whereas the bonus to Charisma is), but the tree's ability scores are stated as "its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6", so I'm not actually sure which direction to rule. I lean towards the Intelligence not being a bonus, but I'm pretty sure you can rule either way.

Because chaining Rapid Maximized awakens for huge DCs and spells per day seems like a decent enough place to start. Probably something like Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4/Cleric 1/Dweomeerkeepr 10.

[Pippin]

Probably something like Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4/Cleric 1/Dweomeerkeepr 10.
With DM semi-fiat, you might be allowed to go Domain Wizard (Magic) and skip the Cleric level.

[Brova]

With DM semi-fiat, you might be allowed to go Domain Wizard (Magic) and skip the Cleric level.

Yah. I keep thinking there's some way to actually get a domain as a Wizard somewhere. I'm pretty sure Sorcerer can do it with something in Complete Champion, but that might just grant spells. Honestly though, its not a big deal. You get to take Divine Metamagic which is a pretty good deal (especially considering your awakens give you bonus Cha).

Fleshing it out more, take Cleric of Planning (free Extend) and Time (Improved Initiative), possibly as an Elf for Chaos Shuffle and Hummingbird + Elf Generalist. Later feats include Persist, Rapid, Quicken, Empower, Maximize, Arcane Thesis (awaken) - arguably not legal, depends whether awaken being cast by a Wizard makes it Arcane, Keen Intellect, Divine Metamagic (Quicken, Empower, Rapid, and Maximize), maybe Leadership. Stack Empowered Maximized Rapid awaken for +(18 + 1/2 * 3d6) to Int every hour [EDIT: you probably also have the feats to make them Reach and Repeating to double the gains]. Assuming awaken boosts your Int and that's contest legal.

[atemu1234]

Question: What exactly is "no infinite loops" blocking? I know I can't gate in Solars to gate in more Solars forever, but can I gate in a Solar for a fight? Or, for my purposes, can I shapechange into an animal, awaken myself (turning into a magical beast), then turn into an animal again? That trick can be done as many times as I want, but is constrained by XP and spell slots.

Basically, can I execute something that would loop infinitely some finite number of times? Also, is there a difference between loops like the Solar loop (which give you new resources when used) and loops like awaken which don't.

Also, is there a generally accepted rule on what "gets 3d6 Intelligence" means? It's not phrased as a bonus (whereas the bonus to Charisma is), but the tree's ability scores are stated as "its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6", so I'm not actually sure which direction to rule. I lean towards the Intelligence not being a bonus, but I'm pretty sure you can rule either way.

Because chaining Rapid Maximized awakens for huge DCs and spells per day seems like a decent enough place to start. Probably something like Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4/Cleric 1/Dweomeerkeepr 10.

Summoning a Solar is ok. Using that one to gate in another is not.

Even the Awaken thing is ok.

[Brova]

Summoning a Solar is ok. Using that one to gate in another is not.

Even the Awaken thing is ok.

Sweet. Time to hash out a build.

Zyradin, Master of Magic

Grey Elf Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5
Feats from levels: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (1st), Spell Focus (Necromancy) (3rd), Leadership (6th), Keen Intellect (9th), Arcane Thesis (awaken) (12th), Spell Focus (Conjuration) (15th), Heighten Spell (18th)
Bonus Feats: Scribe Scroll (Wizard) [Chaos Shuffled into Improved Initiative], Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longsword, Rapier, Longbow, and Shortbow) (Elf) [Chaos Shuffled into Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought, Persist Spell, Miser with Magic], Empower Spell (Wizard), Iron Will (Otyugh Hole), Extend Spell (Incantatrix), Maximize Spell (Incantatrix), Repeat Spell (Incantatrix), Quicken Spell (Incantatrix)

Stats
Strength: 6 (varies with shapechange)
Dexterity: 10 (varies with shapechange)
Constitution: 6 (varies with shapechange)
Intelligence: ~42000 (varies based on rolls from awaken)
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: ~7000 (varies based on rolls from awaken)

The obscene Intelligence and Charisma are from casting awaken on himself repeatedly. Each casting is Empowered (+2), Maximized (+3), and Repeat (+3) for a total of +10. Incantatrix's Mantle of Spells reduces everything 1 and Arcane Thesis reduces everything by 1, for a total of +2, allowing awaken to fit comfortably into a 7th level spell slot. He cast some number of awakens to get 24 7+ slots per day, then spent two months alternating between casting awaken and resting to prepare spells.

There are, to my knowledge, some 5000 spells. Spell Mastery allows you to master a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier, which is in this case all of them. Uncanny Forethought allows you to reserve a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier to cast any mastered spell as a standard action. Again, this is all of his spell slots. That's right, Zyradin can cast any spell in the entire game as a standard action. Suck on that, Sorcerers.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It would be fun to use a sort of mini-Word, with circle magic and persistent consumptive field. You have a caster level of 60, even a great wyrm drops dead just from hearing you speak. The rest of your build can be devoted to going first.

[OldTrees1]

Sweet. Time to hash out a build.

Grey Elf Wizard 5/Cleric 1/Incantatrix 4/Dweomerkeeper 10

Invalid:

No levels in other full-casting classes- PrCs that advance spellcasting are alright, going Wizard 1/Cleric 19 is not. Again, I don't think this will be an issue.

You will need to replace that level of Cleric.

[Brova]

Invalid:


You will need to replace that level of Cleric.

Oh, my bad. It can be done as a pure Incantatrix. Fixing it now.

[Flickerdart]

Intelligence: ~42000 (varies based on rolls from awaken)
Awaken doesn't add Int, it sets your Int. With an awaken loop, you can only rack up crazy Charisma.

[Brova]

Awaken doesn't add Int, it sets your Int. With an awaken loop, you can only rack up crazy Charisma.

That's not actually clear. Awaken uses different verbiage for setting stats (what happens to trees) than it does for what happens to Intelligence. I agree that you're probably right, but I think the phrase "gets 3d6 Intelligence" is ambiguous enough to go either way, especially when the spell also says "except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6" when describing the effects on awakened trees.

Compare to awaken undead as well. That spell uses "A mindless undead gains an Intelligence score of 1d6+4" to describe setting an ability. It is unclear, because there aren't to my knowledge other spells that work on creatures which already have an Int score.