HP Tracks (Think Shadowrun)

[ChubbyRain]

Has anyone converted a system over to D&D where you use HP tracks like Shadowrun (4e/5e) instead of HP.

If not, I'm thinking of homebrewing it myself but didn't want to put the work in it if it has already been done.

Or take what I find and modify it 😎

Thanks in advance.

[Finieous]

I haven't played SR in many years and I'm sure the damage mechanics have changed a lot, but are you looking to implement wound levels with impairment penalties? What is your design objective? I personally don't think a death spiral offers anything to a game like D&D.

[ChubbyRain]

I haven't played SR in many years and I'm sure the damage mechanics have changed a lot, but are you looking to implement wound levels with impairment penalties? What is your design objective? I personally don't think a death spiral offers anything to a game like D&D.

Reducing numbers is probably the main goal.

Instead of making a lot of minor hits mean something, make each hit worth about as much as the next. The minor hits can still be roleplayed but the ones that actually connect are the ones we should care about.

This would allow for more story telling and less numbers crunch during a game.

Say you have 4 slots + Con mod slots (prof in con saves gives you an additional slot). When you are at 1 or 2 of your slots you are "exhausted" and take disadvantage on rolls. During this time you can be knocked out.

Damaged = 1 slot
Critical Damage = 2 slots
Roll 1 on a save versus damage = 2 slots

Just kinda spit balling right now. But if this was ever implemented in 3e/4e then I could convert it that way too.

[Theodoxus]

I'm not tracking exactly what you're proposing, can you provide an example?

Are you stating that Guy 1 has 7 Hits, and Monster A has 10 hits, so every time the monster hits, Guy takes 1 point of damage, and 1 additional point on a crit, and vice-versa? So, Greatsword or dagger doesn't matter; dragon teeth or pixie bite, doesn't matter...

You have what, 6 weapon types? One handed P/B/S and Two handed P/B/S? Plus ranged (mostly modification on range?)

I'm not against the concept, I guess - just removes all the granularity from combat. Basically the opposite of the AC as DR thread...

[DivisibleByZero]

If your goal is to improve the RP aspect and remove the feeling that HP are nothing more than a big bag of meat that can be sliced up until there is nothing left to slice, then you only need to change your thought process.
Think of HP not as meat to be carved, but as energy to deflect/dodge/block attacks.
Star Wars d20 presented Vitality Points and Wound Points (and later, Unearthed Arcana introduced them to D&D as an optional rule).
Under this system, losing HP doesn't signify that you took a sword to the gut. It signifies that you *would have* taken a sword to the gut, but your quick reflexes/instinct/defenses prevented it or turned it into a glancing blow that didn't actually "hurt" you.
Once you are out of VP (or HP here) you are out of energy to dodge/block/deflect the hit, and the next time you actually *do* take that sword to the gut.
Under that system, you had VP = to your HP, and WP equal to your Con score. When your VP were gone, damage went to your WP. When your WP were gone, you died. When you had even a single point of WP damage, you were essentially injured and exhausted.
Under that system, crits do not deal extra damage, but dealt damage straight to WP.

That system/concept takes much of the abstract nature of HP and makes it more believable, without really changing anything but your thought process.
To do what you're proposing, you'd have to change basically everything about how damage is dealt in D&D, and I mean every. single. thing. about it.

edit:
For 5e, I would drop the extra dice on a crit, and apply only the base attack's dice to WP, with the remaining (from, say, sneak attack or divine smite or whatever) to VP if they have any left. That way a rogue or paladin or someone else that can drastically boost their "damage dice" can't immediately kill a creature with a crit (unless it would have probably done so anyway using the normal rules).
Or maybe I'd keep the extra dice, but only apply the first "initial" die to WP, while the rest went to VP.
Or maybe I'd just inform the players at the beginning of the game that the concept of VP is in place with regards to damage, where the only hit that actually *hits* you is the one that takes you down.

[CNagy]

There's a textbox called "Describing the Effects of Damage" in the PHB, in the combat chapter. From the way it describes it, unless you have a specific reason to RP a hit a certain way, the only hit that really matters in D&D is the one that drops you to 0 HP. Narratively, I think that is as good as it gets unless you want a dramatic "seven swords sticking out of him" death scene or something.

[DivisibleByZero]

Re: my post above.
I have always preferred the VP/WP variant. So this discussion got me to thinking about how I could make it work in 5e, and I think I worked out a way that I like.


On The Abstract Nature of Hit Points | Vitality Points and Wound Points

Characters have Vitality Points equal to their normal HP value.
Vitality Points are a measure of a character’s ability to turn a direct hit into a graze or a glancing blow with no serious consequences. An attack that deals HP damage is an attack that the character blocked/dodged (he still loses an appropriate amount of VP).

Characters become Bloodied when they reach half their normal HP/VP value, rounded down. When a character is Bloodied, they have taken an actual hit, and have been visibly, physically hurt to at least some degree.

Characters have a number of Wound Points equal to their Constitution score or half of their Bloodied value (rounded down), whichever is lower. These WP are in addition to their normal HP/VP. So a 1st level Barbarian with a 16 Constitution has 15 HP/VP (12+con mod), a Bloodied value of 7 (half of 15, rounded down), and a separate WP total of 3 (half of 7, rounded down). Once the 16 Con Barbarian's HP/VP total reaches 64 or higher, he never gains any more WP (64 HP, Bloodied value of 32, 16 additional WP).
Creatures that are naturally Huge or larger have twice the normal number of WP.

Wound Points are treated as additional HP/VP, except that once a single point of damage has been taken to your WP, you are exhausted until it is healed. Wound Points heal last, and can only be healed, magically or otherwise, after all HP/VP have been restored. If an attack reduces a player or NPC's HP/VP total to zero, any remaining damage is applied to his WP. If a character (or NPC) is reduced to zero WP, he begins dying, even if he has HP/VP remaining.

Critical hits deal additional damage depending on the type of weapon being used. This additional damage is dealt directly to WP. Damage to WP cannot be reduced in any way by any feature, ability, or spell. To determine the additional damage dealt directly to WP based on weapon type, see below:
Light weapon/Finesse weapon/Natural attack/Unarmed strike: 1 point per die rolled for damage. (so rogues that crit become more deadly as they gain more sneak attack dice)
One-handed weapons and weapons with the Ammunition property: 2 points per die rolled for damage. (most characters will fall here)
Two handed weapon/Heavy weapon/Versatile weapon used in two hands: 3 points per die rolled for damage. (example: a fighter will deal 6 pts of WP with a greatsword crit)
Rogues using Sneak Attack and Paladins using Divine Smite are considered one category lower on this chart, to a minimum of 1 point per die rolled. (because a Pally can choose to use DS after the die has been rolled, and because a ranged Rogue with a crit sneak attack will one shot anyone)

[Slipperychicken]

This would allow for more story telling and less numbers crunch during a game.


Sorry to break it to you, but if you can't roleplay with 28 hit points, then having 5 hit points and calling them "boxes" probably won't fix it. If anything, I'd imagine there would be more metagaming because players will know precisely how many hits it will take to bring them down ("Don't worry, I still have 4 hit boxes. That goblin would have to crit twice in a row to bring me down").

If it was me, I'd either set the "bloodied" condition at half health (disadvantage on most checks), or apply an exhaustion level for every 25% of maximum health someone loses (75% health = disadvantage on ability checks, 50% health = speed halved, 25% health = disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws. Regaining hit points would remove the exhaustion levels). I love Shadowrun's wound system, but I can't imagine throwing too many stackable -1 penalties onto a 5e character.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Re: my post above.
I have always preferred the VP/WP variant. So this discussion got me to thinking about how I could make it work in 5e, and I think I worked out a way that I like.


On The Abstract Nature of Hit Points | Vitality Points and Wound Points

Characters have Vitality Points equal to their normal HP value.
Vitality Points are a measure of a character’s ability to turn a direct hit into a graze or a glancing blow with no serious consequences. An attack that deals HP damage is an attack that the character blocked/dodged (he still loses an appropriate amount of VP).

Characters become Bloodied when they reach half their normal HP/VP value, rounded down. When a character is Bloodied, they have taken an actual hit, and have been visibly, physically hurt to at least some degree.

Characters have a number of Wound Points equal to their Constitution score or half of their Bloodied value (rounded down), whichever is lower. These WP are in addition to their normal HP/VP. So a 1st level Barbarian with a 16 Constitution has 15 HP/VP (12+con mod), a Bloodied value of 7 (half of 15, rounded down), and a separate WP total of 3 (half of 7, rounded down). Once the 16 Con Barbarian's HP/VP total reaches 64 or higher, he never gains any more WP (64 HP, Bloodied value of 32, 16 additional WP).
Creatures that are naturally Huge or larger have twice the normal number of WP.

Wound Points are treated as additional HP/VP, except that once a single point of damage has been taken to your WP, you are exhausted until it is healed. Wound Points heal last, and can only be healed, magically or otherwise, after all HP/VP have been restored. If an attack reduces a player or NPC's HP/VP total to zero, any remaining damage is applied to his WP. If a character (or NPC) is reduced to zero WP, he begins dying, even if he has HP/VP remaining.

Critical hits deal additional damage depending on the type of weapon being used. This additional damage is dealt directly to WP. Damage to WP cannot be reduced in any way by any feature, ability, or spell. To determine the additional damage dealt directly to WP based on weapon type, see below:
Light weapon/Finesse weapon/Natural attack/Unarmed strike: 1 point per die rolled for damage. (so rogues that crit become more deadly as they gain more sneak attack dice)
One-handed weapons and weapons with the Ammunition property: 2 points per die rolled for damage. (most characters will fall here)
Two handed weapon/Heavy weapon/Versatile weapon used in two hands: 3 points per die rolled for damage. (example: a fighter will deal 6 pts of WP with a greatsword crit)
Rogues using Sneak Attack and Paladins using Divine Smite are considered one category lower on this chart, to a minimum of 1 point per die rolled. (because a Pally can choose to use DS after the die has been rolled, and because a ranged Rogue with a crit sneak attack will one shot anyone)


Hmmm. This is quite interesting. So this would, effectively, add a couple of traditional HP onto every character. It's a bit different from the 3.5 model, and that was extremely popular among my players. What would you say if Wound Points were equal to Con Mod (min 1), and every hit over a certain threshold, or that moved the VP thru the stages of Bloodied, reduced WP by 1? Hitting 0 meant Death Saves, and Wounds had smallish impacts on abilities.

In addition, would each class then have a scaling "Bloodied" Power? Barbarians start hitting harder? Wizards start burning spellpower faster?

[coredump]

I tried doing something like this before.... I forgot what I called them, I think Hit Points and Life Points.

Lets say 100 HP and 10 LP. For the first 50 damage taken all come off HP. After that, there was a chance each hit would also remove some LP. A crit always removed 1-2 LP. You could also make a called shot, which would cause 1/2 damage, but always cause 1-2 LP. I was still balancing the HP to LP ratio when I stopped...

HP were easy to heal. LP were much harder.

The change was mostly felt after numerous battles, or multiple days of battle. Having 100HP and 10LP is great, having 100HP and 2LP leaves you feeling a bit vulnerable....

[ChubbyRain]

Sorry to break it to you, but if you can't roleplay with 28 hit points, then having 5 hit points and calling them "boxes" probably won't fix it. If anything, I'd imagine there would be more metagaming because players will know precisely how many hits it will take to bring them down ("Don't worry, I still have 4 hit boxes. That goblin would have to crit twice in a row to bring me down").

If it was me, I'd either set the "bloodied" condition at half health (disadvantage on most checks), or apply an exhaustion level for every 25% of maximum health someone loses (75% health = disadvantage on ability checks, 50% health = speed halved, 25% health = disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws. Regaining hit points would remove the exhaustion levels). I love Shadowrun's wound system, but I can't imagine throwing too many stackable -1 penalties onto a 5e character.

Sorry to break it to you but I never said I couldn't :smallsigh:. Don't put words in my mouth.

What I said was it would allow for more story telling and less number crunch.

Instead of doing math, which for some people take longer than others. I've even played with new players that pick up d12s instead of d8s... even after a month or two of playing D&D and others that have 10+ dice to roll. Instead of rolling a ton of dice and adding up dice and stuff, you can describe your damage and how you are attacking since everyone will know you take "one slot" or "two slots" of damage. Not only can this speed up game play but it can foster roleplaying.

Instead of taking up time figuring out how much damage you did, you can take that time to describe what you are doing.

[Slipperychicken]

Sorry to break it to you but I never said I couldn't :smallsigh:. Don't put words in my mouth.

What I said was it would allow for more story telling and less number crunch.

Instead of doing math, which for some people take longer than others. I've even played with new players that pick up d12s instead of d8s... even after a month or two of playing D&D and others that have 10+ dice to roll. Instead of rolling a ton of dice and adding up dice and stuff, you can describe your damage and how you are attacking since everyone will know you take "one slot" or "two slots" of damage. Not only can this speed up game play but it can foster roleplaying.

Instead of taking up time figuring out how much damage you did, you can take that time to describe what you are doing.

Sounds good to me. Making the math simpler to allow more time for roleplaying makes a lot of sense. When I disagreed with you, I had figured you were making the standard "roleplay vs. rollplay" argument. Thanks for clearing that up.